Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"

[Arcanoi]

Models in starter sets are custom made for these starter sets, though, so making them snipers would be just as easy for GW as making them anything else.

Nope, with the way the push-fit minis are made, sniper scouts will be completely infeasible without complete remodelling... or rather, completely infeasible at al, IMHO.

You're doing it again. All of the models in GW's starter-kits are new models. He said that quite explicitly.

And even if that was not the case - which it is - what the hell kind of discussion strategy is "He spoke of rifles, but I don't think rifles would be feasible, so rather than pointing out I don't think rifles would be feasible I will just pretend he spoke of close combat weapons!" supposed to be?

I ignored that because he didn't say which rifles he meant, bolter, shotguns, or snipers, and assumed shotguns, as they belong on assault scouts that are found in all the other big figure packs and would be easy to make as push-fit.

Uh huh. For the future, in the context of Space Marine Scouts, 'shotguns' refers to shotguns, 'bolters' or 'boltguns' refer to bolters, and 'rifles' or 'snipers' refer to sniper rifles.

Which might change soon if GK rumours are true. I wonder what notation will be used then, 3+++?

Probably 're-rollable 3++', the notation we use now. Though 'rr3++' or some similar shorthand might develop.

Besides, my point was, I believe "why ruin the AoBR [...] financial [...] value

Sadly, it doesn't even hurt the value that much, because unless you can find someone willing to buy the models you don't want, you're not saving all that much. Much better for the kit to actually contain entirely useful models and armies for both sides. I'd actually redo the box entirely.

Spoiler

Show

(1) Pocket-sized WH40k Rulebook
(1) Getting Started Guide
(Some) Rulers, Templates, and Dice
(1) Space Marine Captain with Relic Blade and Artificer Armor
(5) Assault Marines
(7) Tactical Marines with Bolters
(1) Tactical Marine with Plasma Gun
(1) Tactical Marine with Missile Launcher
(1) Tactical Marine Sergeant with Power Fist
(1) Dreadnought with multiple arm options (Assault Cannon, Autocannon, CCW, and Seismic Hammer Left, CCW Right)
(5) Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles
(1) Warboss with Power-Claw and Boss-Pole
(5) Nobz with Choppas and Big Choppas
(1) Nob with Power Claw and Boss Pole
(19) Boyz with CCW/S
(2) Killa Kans
(5) Lootas

[Zorg]

[QUOTE=Irbis;10259967]Then, they would need to eliminate all poses save for sniper-rifle-hugging one, like in these bolter Marines. Otherwise, the parts just wouldn't fit. But, sadly, sniper rifle also has cables coming out of it, I have no idea how you'd push-fit that.[quote]

Given the abysmal range of poses the current box makes, it wouldn't be much of a loss.
The cables could easily be split in half, with them running from the power pack to the halfway seam on the thigh. The gun then has the other half.

So, the model would need to be incredibly dumbed down, be much more complex, or have different pose altogether. All of which points to extra time and money needed for it to happen, making it unlikely for GW to do.

Well, they sculpted everything else in AoBR from scratch, the Termies have much more limited poses already compared to the normal ones and assembly is far simpler so it would have been much of a muchness to which they chose.

[Winterwind]

I didn't quickly find your list or your changes to it so I can't say exactly what I would do.

Oh, right, sorry... the list currently is:

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Farseer - 178 Points
- Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Eldar Jetbike

ELITES
Fire Dragons (x10) - 192+130 Points
- Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
+ Wave Serpent with Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers and Spirit Stones

Striking Scorpions (x10) - 202 Points
- Exarch, Biting Blade, Stalker, Shadow Strike

TROOPS
Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 205 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x2)
- Warlock on Jetbike, Singing Spear, Embolden

Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 152 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x2)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Total: 1905

You've already got the scorpion model count to 10? The WS wouldn't be able to infiltrate with scorpions... but it should be able to outflank with them... right? Which would give you some more options. Having it in the list and deciding how to actually use it once you get to the table gives some more options.

There are probably a few good options, it might be best to keep some points kind of flexible and try different things with it.

It would be able to outflank with them, indeed; I could also infiltrate them somewhere, and leave the WS amongst my own ranks, shooting and flying whereever it happens to be needed. The rest of my army is superbly mobile, only the Pathfinders are not; being able to evacuate them quickly might be advantageous.


Incidentally, I had my first game with my Eldar, 1000 points (Jetbike Farseer, one Jetbike Guardian units with Warlock, two Pathfinder units, two Fire Prisms), as part of a 2700 point alliance of Eldar+Blood Angels against 2700 points of Black Templars. Unfortunately, we didn't finish, but I was quite satisfied with the performance of my army; with every shot of each of my units, scores of hostile Marines and Terminators fell. It was glorious.

And, my ego got a massive boost when both the two people I played with and every single person in the room expressed their awe over the paint job on my Fire Prism multiple times.

And, since I read it up - as it might have come into play:

Likewise, I once had a Farseer with Fortune join a unit of Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators in an allied game. They just. Didn't. Die.

That's illegal, no matter which stance one takes on what degree of synergy between armies is allowed. Fortune explicitly works only on Eldar units.

[Nameless Ghost]

On a similar subject, can anyone tell me if the Ravenwing Battleforce lets you make landspeeders other than the one on the box?

The Ravenwing Battleforce comes with the (old) Landspeeder sprue (contains a Heavy Bolter and Multimelta) and 3 Ravenwing sprues. The Ravenwing sprues each contain Typhoon Missile Launchers, 2 Assault Cannons and a Heavy Bolter, along with the parts to make a Master of the Ravenwing Landspeeder.

[PanNarrans]

And, since I read it up - as it might have come into play:
That's illegal, no matter which stance one takes on what degree of synergy between armies is allowed. Fortune explicitly works only on Eldar units.

Damn, you're right. Thank heavens it was a silly game.

[Erloas]

the current list is...

Well there is always the option of increasing your pathfinder squads by a couple models each (well you are 1 point short of adding 4 more), which would also give you the option of 3 squads of 6 instead. But I'm not really sure of the optimal number of them and I'm not sure if you would need more or if you could find a good spot to infiltrate 3 different units.

3 more jetbikes, either in its own unit or with a current unit would be possible, but I'm not sure if more of the same would really gain you a whole lot here.

The WS for the scorpions is an interesting option, though you would probably need to drop a pathfinder or fire dragon to get points to set it up in a reasonable configuration.

A unit of guardians or dire avengers looks like a pretty good option to me. They are a lot better at holding an objective then the pathfinders, and they would do a good job at reinforcing objectives with the pathfinders. While it seems odd to have dire avengers without an exarch and bladestorm, being a secondary support unit in this case I think it would be fine, and could be done without having to change your list to fit it in. As an aside, I'm still not 100% sure on bladestorm, so often its hard to judge if a extra shot now is worth not being able to shoot next turn since with their 18" range there is usually something to shoot at, however it does make more sense when they have a WS where they speed the next turn hidden. Both units are slow compared to the rest of your army, but they do offer a good use in objective based games.

As for fast attack... well the vyper is a reasonable choice, but it leaves you with about 30 unused points. They are a reasonable unit, but I'm not entirely sure how well they will actually perform. My preferred weapon for them is the SL, especially with their low BS, but I can get the same weapon with the same BS on guardians for a little bit more with a lot more survivability, and more short range firepower. I use them sometimes, but mostly because I have them because I bought the apocalypse box with them (which is sadly no longer available, its where I got all my jetbikes... and I do love jetbikes) and I've just found that they just don't do all that well for me. I think a big part of that is because they are simply too easy to shoot down because they will take the fire of any of the larger guns that aren't dedicated anti-tank. There just aren't a lot of great targets for those str5-7 guns that are out there so they all get targeted at the the AV10 vehicle.

Though I really think warp spider would fit your army design very well. And in terms of support fire they are the same str as the vyper, but better BS and more shots, with the only downside being that they are less useful against vehicles (the only real downside to AP- as far as I'm concerned). I don't think they need an exarch either because most anything that is going to assault them is probably going to reduce them to an unusable size before hit and run would be of much use. Although you do get an extra models worth of shooting for 17 points instead of 22 (better actually with the better BS) it depends on how they fit in your army. And in this case even for a minimum unit you would need to drop at least 1 model from another unit to get them to fit. Although dropping a single fire dragon would give you the points for minimum 5 warp spiders without really changing the effectiveness of the dragon unit, and that would be 10 str6 shots at BS4, compared to the 4 str6 shots at BS3 of the vyper (8 if you fit 2 in which would be 10 points more then the spiders instead of 50 points less) but the spiders also have greater mobility then the vyper and in most cases much better survivability (pretty much everything but AP3 or better pie plates).


Which I admit is a lot of choices rather then a straight forward recommendation. I think really though its something you should experiment with and find out what feels best for you. Dropping a single fire prism to try 2-3 different options per game wouldn't be a bad idea either. Especially if you are using your early games with the army to learn the army and figure out what it can do and worry about the "perfect" build when it comes down to a grudge match or tournament. After all, if you already know fire prisms work really well you don't need to keep all of them during testing and experimenting.

[Winterwind]

Which I admit is a lot of choices rather then a straight forward recommendation. I think really though its something you should experiment with and find out what feels best for you. Dropping a single fire prism to try 2-3 different options per game wouldn't be a bad idea either. Especially if you are using your early games with the army to learn the army and figure out what it can do and worry about the "perfect" build when it comes down to a grudge match or tournament. After all, if you already know fire prisms work really well you don't need to keep all of them during testing and experimenting.

That's excellent advice, and I liked all of the options you suggested, too - more Pathfinders, more Jetbikes, the Serpent, the Guardians, the Dire Avengers, the Vyper, the Warp Spiders - I guess I'll pick up all of them over time and experiment a bit (will bring me closer to being able to play really big games occasionally, too). Thank you very much.

[lord_khaine]

So, in honor of all the Eldar talk im going to post the battle rapport of our current 40k campaign.

the story so far

Spoiler

Show

Seer Robins travels though the webway had found him strandet in a huge warhost composed of several alien species, including a group of the dark kin, and lead by some small blue men in battle mechs.

Realising the danger he was in, Seer Robin quickly turned all the holofields on his ships black, and informed the general of the warhost that he was the leader of a group of Mercenary Dark Renegade Corsair Pirates, who was willing to fight for vine, gold and a chance to recite poetry to a captive (bound) audience.

This message confused the general long enough for Seer Robins people to hightail it out of the camp, but while seaching for a functional warpgate, they instead stumpled upon a group of freshly convertet and corruptet space marines.

setup

Spoiler

Show

Eldar vs Marine 1750, annihilation

Deployment.
The marine player placed 2 thunderfire cannons in the ruins on the northern corner of the battlefield, and a group of scouts in a fortified ruin on the western corner.
To the west of the central ruins he placed a Predator and 2 Razorbacks containing a combat squad on a line, and on the far western edge he placed 2 devastator squads.
In decent cover in the middle he placed a Dreadnough, as well as 10 assult marines lead by a chaplain.
At the eastern edge he placed another 2 razorbacks containing combat squads of tactical marines.

Eldars placed a group of Dark reapers in the central ruins of their deployment zone, with a wraithlord standing in cover behind the ruins, and a Wave serpent containing 5 wraithlords beside it.
To the right of the ruins stood TAK (The Avatar of Khaine), and the Wave serpent containing Seer Robin and his bodyguard.
2 groups of dire avengers, and a group of guardians had misread the map Seer Robin had drawn, and had therefore not yet arrived.

Round 1

Spoiler

Show

The battle startet with the Reaper exarch known only as the "poet" taking carefully aim, before setting his reaper launcher to Overkill, as a subtle way of telling the scouts in the western ruins that yes, he had seen them...
Unfortunately, noone else managet to hit anything, so the Waveserpent pilots flew into a position to pop open some of the many marine transports, while TAK shoutet something nasty, and startet running towards the enemy.

Whatever it was he shoutet, it must have been both rude and loud, since it provoked the dreadnought hiding behind the central ruins to crash though the wall, autocannon blazing, while at the same time both thunderfire cannons and devastators opened fire upon him, to no avail.

Meanwhile, the chaplain lead his men down the eastern side of the centrail ruins, in a attempt to flank the eldar forces, while the 2 razorbacks providet cover for them.

Round 2

Spoiler

Show

The few surviving members of the scouts was picked off by the reapers, but neither the Wave serpents nor the Wraithlord managet to accomplish anything usefull, besides moving a bit closer to the gunline of their corruptet opponents.

Meanwhile, TAK had found something that at least looked like it could put up a bit of a fight, and with a loud roar he rushed into the ruins to do battle with the dreadnought.

It was just a shame he had not taken into account, that the ruins was build on a much smaller scale than he was, and halfway though his charge TAK got the ornate horns on his healm stuck in the remnants of the celling above him, leaving an oppening for the dreadnough to run in and deliver a staggering blow to TAK, that would have killed most living creatures. TAK was only woundet however, and respondet by driving his blazing sword down though the foot of his opponent, pinning it to the ground.

Fear of hitting their own ally made it impossible for the Marines to open fire upon TAK, so instead the Predator blastet a lascannon bolt into the grav generator of the Wave Serpent carrying the Wraithguards, forcing it to make a crash landing, while the devastators launched a salvo of armor piercing krak missiles into Seer Robins personal Wave serpent, hitting the engine and forcing it to make a real crash.

And just as Seer Robin was getting out to take a closer look at the damage (in the faint hope that it could be repaired), disaster struck again in the form of the 2 thunderfire cannons, killing allmost half of Seer Robins bodyguards, and wounding him as well.

Round 3

Spoiler

Show

The Guardians and Dire Avengers finaly made it to the battlefield after a few false starts, with the Avengers quickly moving into the ruins at the Eastern corner to provide fire support, while the guardian group, who was mostly made out of PR agents and the spindoctors needet to support Seer Robins reputation, seized some ruins of vital importance at the southern corner (the important part being that they were far away from everything).

Meanwhile, anger over losing his ride made Seer Robin lash out telekineticaly at the only targets he could see, spinning the Predator around and eksposing its rear armor, while the Razorback got flipped over, spilling its cargo of marines out on the streets of the ruined city. They had just about time to try and get up, when the Avatar, who had finish off his opponent a while ago, jumped out of the central ruins, and startet to run towards them, though slowed down a bit by having to hack his way though the wall.

At the top of the southern ruins, the dark reapers had aquired a new target in the form of the annoyingly accurate devastators, and a hail of reaper missiles cut their numbers in half.

The Wraithguards had at this point discovered they were not moving any more, and so they strode out to help finish off the last razorback, unfortunately, lacking any eyes made them a bit bad at depth perception, and so they miscalculated the distance of their target.

Seer Robins bodyguard was at this point busy dragging their frenzied leader out of the open, and around the central ruins, where they had just about time to stop up and cach their breath, before a whole unit of Assult marines came crashing out of the sky, announcing their arrival though a hail of very unaccurate bolter shots.

Their leader seemed to be a corrupt chaplain, blessed by Khorne with the ability to produce an unlimited amouth of unholy foam, as he raved and raget and startet attacking everything in his path, including those of his own men who Seer Robin kept hiding behind.

The other combat squad in the western razorback had meanwhile also gotten out, and opened fire on the wraithguard, while the first squad and the remaining devastators had caught TAK in a crossfire, breaching his metal skin in several places.

Round 4

Spoiler

Show

While the Chaplain and his berserker friends was busy attacking everything in range, then they failed to notice that yet another group of Dire avengers had arrived, setting themself up for a classic pincer maneuver.

At the other end of the battlefield a wellplaced missile had finaly finished the Predator off, leaving TAK to stumble though the crater, before falling upon the tactical combat squad like a burning avalance.

The Wraithguard tried to copy this, but most were badly damage by Thundercannon fire, and their charge did not go nearly as well.

While the Avatar was busy stomping marines into the road, then the other tactical squad was busy tripping the damaged wraithguards over on their backs, where they were unable to get back up.

It was also at this point, that the thunderfire gunners had finaly discoved that someone had set a missile launcher to autofire, and was busy decimating the last remaining group of devastators, the ensuring counterfire quickly convinced the Dark reapers that it was time to leave while it was still possible.

At the eastern corner the melee was still going strong, but the chaotic flailings of the mad Chaplain proved to much for the Dire Avengers, who made a tactical retreat.

Round 5

Spoiler

Show

Being done with stomping the last couple of marines into the ground, TAK quickly rushed over to crush the last combat squad, though only arriving just in time to avenge them in a especaly brutal fashion.

At the same time, the battle at the Eastern corner had finaly reached an end, as the corrupt chaplain had finaly managet to fill his own help with foam though his own blashphemeous ramblings, blinding him and creating an opening for Seer Robins personal bodyguard to strike him down.

This made one of the 2 remaining combat squads jump out of their razorback and try to finish off Seer Robin and his remaining bodyguards, while the other one drove off to harash the fleeing Avengers.

But though the harasment worked fine, then it didnt go quite as well for the other squad, who though a amazing string of bad luck didnt hit anything besides seer Robins wraithbone breastplate.

Round 6

Spoiler

Show

TAK continued his rampage down towards the last surviving Devastators, stopping only to carve the last remaining Razorback on the western front in half, something that would prove to be his last act, since the surviving devastators finaly managet to fell him with a hail of rapidfire bolter rounds.

On the Eastern front Seer Robins remaining bodyguards assulted the combat squad, eager to finish off the last remaining threat to their withdrawel.

the remaining razorback was meanwhile busy rushing down towards the southern ruins where the guardian squad was hiding, in a desperate attempt to make sure that at least noone would be left alive to tell the tale of the battle proberly.
At the same time, the Thunderfire battery was busy providing fire support by shooting blindly into the ruins of the city below.

Round 7

Spoiler

Show

At this point the remaining eldar forces were just waiting for either the Thunderfire cannon to run out of ammo, or it getting dark so they could sneak away, but this did not stop the Wraithlord from blowing up the razorback that was headet towards the group of guardians that had bravely held their teoretical objective though the entire fight.

This removed the last chance of a marine victory, though it did not stop the thunderfire cannon from trying to blow the few remaining parts of the ruined city appart.

Comments

Spoiler

Show

Well, this battle was more or less won at round 4 or 5, from that point on it became mostly an issue of avoiding getting all my units destroyed, as that was the only way my opponent could win.

Also, my opponent did make some critical errors, like ignoring my Dark reapers for far to long, though they did also have fortune running in the rounds where they wasnt getting shot at.

It was annoying to get hit by 2 thunderfire cannon barrages without fortune running, but it came as a bit of a surprise that the main WS got shot down, and i cant see what else i should have done besides shielding it with another WS, and give it a cover save that way.

Else, in hindsight the only thing i belive i should have done different, is to Rush my WS carrying the wraithguards towards the ruins where he was hiding the Thunderfire cannons, i usualy try and shoot them down in round 1, but in this battle they were out of range.

[Kzickas]

shouldn't the thunderfire cannon have instant deathed your farseer?

[lord_khaine]

No, Seer Robin has T4, he can take it (barely).

[Nameless Ghost]

No, Seer Robin has T4, he can take it (barely).

If he's a refluffed Eldrad, sure. But a normal Farseer is T3.

[Irbis]

Given the abysmal range of poses the current box makes, it wouldn't be much of a loss.
The cables could easily be split in half, with them running from the power pack to the halfway seam on the thigh. The gun then has the other half.

Well, they sculpted everything else in AoBR from scratch, the Termies have much more limited poses already compared to the normal ones and assembly is far simpler so it would have been much of a muchness to which they chose.

Okay... I see that it could, theoretically, be done. Still, that would have been subpar squad (snipers without missile launcher lose much of their punch) that I'm not sure would have been worth the effort.

You're doing it again. All of the models in GW's starter-kits are new models. He said that quite explicitly.

Yesss, new models that are extremely impractical to make. Point that still fails to be addressed was - WHY?

Uh huh. For the future, in the context of Space Marine Scouts, 'shotguns' refers to shotguns, 'bolters' or 'boltguns' refer to bolters, and 'rifles' or 'snipers' refer to sniper rifles.

For your future reference, that was said by someone who, after writing 50 times 'unit X sucks' and zero times 'unit X is great', then said that he though 'unit X was great all along' and I've read beginner guides wrong.

So, excuse me that I'll take whatever was written with a grain of salt.

Sadly, it doesn't even hurt the value that much, because unless you can find someone willing to buy the models you don't want, you're not saving all that much.

Again, difference between Termie/BB box and Scout/Assault one is 22 pounds. That's almost half of the value of the AoBR box. And no, you don't need to find "anyone", it is sufficient you saved that much money. Especially seeing what is currently in it is far more popular and likely to be bought than what you propose.

Much better for the kit to actually contain entirely useful models and armies for both sides. I'd actually redo the box entirely.

Useful? Let's see:

(1) Space Marine Captain with Relic Blade and Artificer Armor
(7) Tactical Marines with Bolters
(1) Tactical Marine with Missile Launcher

Exact same thing as AoBR already has.

(1) Tactical Marine Sergeant with Power Fist

Five seconds of converting, and besides, the guy was obviously made in a way allowing giving him any weapon you want (ease of conversion). Power Fist on tacticals isn't always the best idea.

(1) Tactical Marine with Plasma Gun

Something virtually no one uses now?

Again, why?

(1) Dreadnought with multiple arm options (Assault Cannon, Autocannon, CCW, and Seismic Hammer Left, CCW Right)

Erm... Since when normal BB can equip SH? That's illegal.

Having more arms would be nice, but converting it is easy, it wouldn't be exactly practical in starter box, you can buy these for cheap in most bitz shops, and besides, most of actually useful options is FW only so it needs to be converted even with 'normal' dread.

All you would add is more plastic to be thrown out, as out of these only AC/DCCW combo would have been used, people making Riflemen would still convert both arms to have identical ones.

(5) Assault Marines
(5) Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles

Let me sum this up - these units are not useful. They're very poor, both from economical and hobby point of view.

Why hobby? There are 7 Space Marine armies. Amount of armies needing more Terminator bodies? 7, due to amount of free arms in most Termie boxes. Amount of armies that would like cheaper BB? Also 7, 6.5 is we count crazy Chaos dreads as 1/2.

How many of these armies can even use scout snipers? One. Just SM. You can take them in other armies, but they're gimmicks no one uses due to that army specialization (like SW/BA). How many of these armies use Assault Ms? Also one. BA. SM might use one squad, if that. And even in those they won't be popular, as you included them without the only bitz making them useful in these armies.

So, congratulations, you just cut the interest in your starting box to 1/10, make it much less spammable, made the parts far more expensive, making interest even less, and completely screwed Death/Loganwing and BA/MotF armies. For what? For a handful of units useless outside of one Codex?

By the way, since starting box is no longer so profitable, GW had to raise prices to make for the shortfall. Are you sure you want that? That's why it is bad idea, IMHO, even from purely economical point of view. If you insert something no one really wants to buy, no one will buy that, outside of margin lists.

[Timberwolf]

Erm... Since when normal BB can equip SH? That's illegal.

Having more arms would be nice, but converting it is easy, it wouldn't be exactly practical in starter box, you can buy these for cheap in most bitz shops, and besides, most of actually useful options is FW only so it needs to be converted even with 'normal' dread.

All you would add is more plastic to be thrown out, as out of these only AC/DCCW combo would have been used, people making Riflemen would still convert both arms to have identical ones.

Most people who buy the beginners set known as AoBR won't know about the fine tradition of the bits shop, because they are beginners, and therefore don't know about it or live near one. They are pretty niche and they are few and far between. Yes, I guess you probably could name about 500 within a miles walk of you. Great. I can't. I know where my GW is and that's it. I can tell you where one is 150 miles away, but I feel that's extreme. Perhaps Wraith could help me out a bit here with some fine West (or East, but only as a last resort you hear me... !? I don't like going over the border) Midlands bits shops actually.

Anyway, I would love AoBR to have all the dreadnought options. Won't happen of course, so I'll have to enrich Forge World some more, but I love my AoBR Dreadnought with FW CCW. I may even try to get a pic of it. I just need a drill to get the arm on right without the help of blutack.

With the Seismic hammer thing, a Dreadnaught body, as long as it has the right stuff on it, should be fine to be whatever kind of Dreadnaught I would have thought. I'm sure everyone has better things to do than jump up and down because someone hung a seismic hammer on the side of a normal dreadnaught body, said it's an Ironclad and paid the points for it. Especially a new player who's obviously using the AoBR Dreadnaught.

[sircarp]

I feel the lack of options is less due to wanting to enrich FW or bits sellers and more because it would cost a lot extra for them to design and include the extra sprues for the set. I'd like more options, but there's a reason the normal kits cost so much extra over the starter set.

[Arcanoi]

Yesss, new models that are extremely impractical to make. Point that still fails to be addressed was - WHY?

Exactly as impractical to make as every other similarly-sized custom model? There's no real difference between making a custom-sculpted push-fit Scout and a custom-sculpted push-fit Marine. The Scout might even be cheaper because he's less plastic.

For your future reference, that was said by someone who, after writing 50 times 'unit X sucks' and zero times 'unit X is great', then said that he though 'unit X was great all along' and I've read beginner guides wrong.

So, excuse me that I'll take whatever was written with a grain of salt.

Taking something with a grain of salt is considerably different than some form of super-strawman.

Again, difference between Termie/BB box and Scout/Assault one is 22 pounds. That's almost half of the value of the AoBR box. And no, you don't need to find "anyone", it is sufficient you saved that much money. Especially seeing what is currently in it is far more popular and likely to be bought than what you propose.

You'd be surprised how few people run shooty terminators, or buy AOBR only for them and the dreadnought.

Five seconds of converting, and besides, the guy was obviously made in a way allowing giving him any weapon you want (ease of conversion). Power Fist on tacticals isn't always the best idea.

Power Fists on tacticals is almost always better than not having a Power Fist. And some new players (The demographic the starter box should be aimed at) might not be particularly good at it.

Something virtually no one uses now?

Plasma guns on tactical squads see a lot of use.

Erm... Since when normal BB can equip SH? That's illegal.

Having more arms would be nice, but converting it is easy, it wouldn't be exactly practical in starter box, you can buy these for cheap in most bitz shops, and besides, most of actually useful options is FW only so it needs to be converted even with 'normal' dread.

Converting a Seismic hammer that looks nice is not easy, and a Dreadnought with seismic hammer and some extra plasticard plating is a very suitable Ironclad.

Let me sum this up - these units are not useful. They're very poor, both from economical and hobby point of view.

Scouts and Assault Marines both see quite a bit of use. Admittedly, these are small numbers, but this is also a starter box.

Why hobby? There are 7 Space Marine armies. Amount of armies needing more Terminator bodies? 7, due to amount of free arms in most Termie boxes. Amount of armies that would like cheaper BB? Also 7, 6.5 is we count crazy Chaos dreads as 1/2.

First of all, only 4 of these armies see popular use. Secondly, Chaos rarely uses their terminators, as they are crap/overpriced.

How many of these armies can even use scout snipers? One.

Two. Space Wolves Wolf Scouts are pretty good. Also, this is a Codex: Space Marines army in a starter box, not a Codex: Whatever Marines You Want army.

So, congratulations, you just cut the interest in your starting box to 1/10

Fortunately, the box is now much more suitable as a starter box, meaning that the internet will be much less likely to shepherd players away from it.

make it much less spammable

I don't think the best advantage of a starter box should be its usefulness to veteran players.

made the parts far more expensive

That's simply untrue.

making interest even less

Again, it's now a good starter box. For new people. Accomplishing its stated goal. If GW wants to mass-produce an alternative SM/Ork Battleforce, they can do so easily.

and completely screwed Death/Loganwing and BA/MotF armies.

Of course. Because they can only get their terminators from AOBR. There are no other sources. Say, wouldn't it be great if you could get more terminators, maybe in some kind of groundbreaking box, or if their price is low enough, two boxes, of terminators, along with plenty of bits for them, instead of buying Black Reach?

For what? For a handful of units useless outside of one Codex?

Specifically, the army the units in the box are meant to be played as.

By the way, since starting box is no longer so profitable, GW had to raise prices to make for the shortfall.

Aha! Because Games Workshop has no other products, and those said products don't include things found in the AOBR box.

Are you sure you want that? That's why it is bad idea, IMHO, even from purely economical point of view. If you insert something no one really wants to buy, no one will buy that, outside of margin lists.

The Box is now profitable for two armies, rather than one, and both armies in the box are legal and informative for everyone involved. If you want Space Wolves or Blood Angels, the starter box, advertising Ultramarines, might not be for you.

[Cheesegear]

Um... care to explain why? Because to me, it looks like you'd ruin the value of the box, pulling 21.5 £ worth of minis of of it, and for what?

It would only devalue the box if the box stayed at the same price. If you bring down the price, you don't devalue anything, at all.

Who uses AM outside of BA? Who, outside of exotic lists, ever uses assault scouts?

Me. Define 'exotic' list? You mean, 'one not posted on the internet'?

Wow, come on man. Do I really need to keep explaining this to you? Really?

Not. Everyone. Who. Plays. The. Game. Is. Competitive.
Not. Everyone. Plays. Mechanised. Not. Everyone. Wants. To. Play. Mechanised.
The. Internet. Is. The. Vocal. Minority.

This is the g*-damn STARTER BOX. It's not supposed to be competitive. It's not supposed to be for people like you. It's supposed to get people interested in the game, and, the ability to play small games with their friends.

The majority of people who play 40K do not go to tournaments and regularly play 'casual' games and PUGs at clubs and the GWS/FLGS.

Why do the SMs in the current AoBR box suck?
1. The units are impractical for the points limit.
2. It's illegal.

3. Most importantly, they're boring. I've heard this complaint on more than one occasion. Which is actually terrible because people start wanting to play the Orks instead. And, as anyone who has played AoBR knows, the Orks will always lose, due to not having their proper rules and being about 100-150 points below the SMs.

What does AoBR give you?
Tactical Marines with Bolters.
Tactical Marines with heavier armour and Relentless Bolters.
Captain with Bolter.
Dreadnought with Multi-Melta (which is useless, even in AoBR)

My suggestion of taking out the Terminators and Dreadnought, and replacing them with Scouts and Assault Marines;

1. Makes the Marines less boring. You've got a unit with Bolters, you've got a sit-back-and-shoot style unit of Scouts, who can Infiltrate and Scout for a slightly more variety of rules to actually get you into the game. You've got a relatively fast close-combat unit, which, with Jump Packs, is more variety for a new player to actually try out more units and rules, etc.

2. Brings down the points cost of the Marines by...You guessed it. 130 Points. And gives the Marines less Bolters. Hey, look! AoBR is fair now! Now you can actually play Orks and not get stomped everytime! Yaaaaay!

{Scrubbed}

[Psychotic]

Snip

...

*slowly stands up*

*applause*

[Timberwolf]

Not. Everyone. Who. Plays. The. Game. Is. Competitive.
Not. Everyone. Plays. Mechanised. Not. Everyone. Wants. To. Play. Mechanised.
The. Internet. Is. The. Vocal. Minority.

This is the g*-damn STARTER BOX. It's not supposed to be competitive. It's not supposed to be for people like you. It's supposed to get people interested in the game, and, the ability to play small games with their friends.

The majority of people who play 40K do not go to tournaments and regularly play 'casual' games and PUGs at clubs and the GWS/FLGS.
[/COLOR]

QFT

And that's exactly where I am at the moment. I'm not experienced enough to go to tournaments at the moment. my Codex fu is weak (other people's codex, not mine) and my grasp of the rules is less than I'd like. Got to learn somewhere and my local GW is as good as anywhere. I also play a jump pack army list and have few plans to go get a load of tanks, as I've come to the conclusion, after the Stormraven incident, that one bad hit spoils all. Also, the internet can say that the sky is blue, the moon is made of green cheese and the flavour of the month is massed land raider spam. I'll listen politely, take everything on board, factor it in to my thinking and then do something that is based on advice, but that I'm comfortable with. Hence why all my assault squads are 10 man with special weapons and my HQ is a librarian (thank you Cheesegear), yet I also am the proud owner of a poor man's Furioso and a drop pod, because I wanted to have it in there for the time someone does bring a Land Raider to a 1000 point game and also for breaking open Terminators.

Now, I bought AoBR after long consideration about whether I would actually use the units in it. I have managed to shift the Orks, which was a nice offset of the price, because Ork players like shedloads of extra boyz, nobs and those plastic deffkoptas that you can't get elsewhere and are way cheaper to pick up informally than buy GW's metral ones. I certainly did not shell out for it because of my local blackshirt's reasoned suggestions. As it happens, I use 2 of the 4 SM componants in my current army and the Terminators, with the Assault cannons I just bought, will fill a 250 point hole nicely when I'm playing a 1250 or 1750 point game. Personally, the only thing that is actively bad about AoBR as far as I'm concerned is the Captain. I've painted him, and he's got his own jump pack, but without a bolt pistol, he's not as good in CC as he should be and with a bolter, his logical place is my Tac squad, which is not where I need an invulnerable save. Ah well, it could have been worse.

[Winterwind]

So, in honor of all the Eldar talk im going to post the battle rapport of our current 40k campaign.

Very nice read! Always nice to see fellow Eldar players show these overgrown mon-keigh who's boss.

Not. Everyone. Who. Plays. The. Game. Is. Competitive.
Not. Everyone. Plays. Mechanised. Not. Everyone. Wants. To. Play. Mechanised.
The. Internet. Is. The. Vocal. Minority.

Even though they are not Monty Python quotes, maybe we can use these (at least the third one) as thread titles for the next few threads? I can't shake off the feelings having these as reminders might prove useful at times (such as this).

I've painted him, and he's got his own jump pack, but without a bolt pistol, he's not as good in CC as he should be and with a bolter, his logical place is my Tac squad, which is not where I need an invulnerable save. Ah well, it could have been worse.

Though replacing the bolter with a boltpistol should be pretty easy, normally - I mean, just cut off the bolter and glue a boltpistol, which you get in dozens with every box, in its place. Or is the AoBR model shaped such that without the bolter, there is an ugly hole in it that the boltpistol couldn't obscure, or something?


What's the best unit Eldar can get for long range anti-vehicle firepower that's not a Heavy Support choice? That's one thing I noticed was lacking in my army - Fire Prisms can shoot down vehicles at a distance, but are not efficient at doing so, Singing Spears are close ranged (and besides my Jetbikes are wasted shooting at vehicles), Fire Dragons are short ranged as well...

[Cheesegear]

What's the best unit Eldar can get for long range anti-vehicle firepower that's not a Heavy Support choice?

Vypers. And Wave Serpents.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Though replacing the bolter with a boltpistol should be pretty easy, normally - I mean, just cut off the bolter and glue a boltpistol, which you get in dozens with every box, in its place. Or is the AoBR model shaped such that without the bolter, there is an ugly hole in it that the boltpistol couldn't obscure, or something?

The bolter is pretty much irremovable. I comes as a seperate piece but you'd need green stuff skills to get rid of it.

The sword is easily replacable, so you can get an okay Tycho proxy out of him, but then you have no jump pack.

Pic of the sprue/

[Winterwind]

Vypers. And Wave Serpents.

Both of these would suit me well.
Aren't Vypers a bit too expensive and have a bit too low BS to work well with bright lances, though?

The bolter is pretty much irremovable. I comes as a seperate piece but you'd need green stuff skills to get rid of it.
[...]
Pic of the sprue/

I'll take your word for it; looking at that sprue, it still looks to me like it should be possible to cut the thing off and put a boltpistol in its place, but if you say it's not, then it's probably more difficult than it appears to me...

[Wraith]

What's the best unit Eldar can get for long range anti-vehicle firepower that's not a Heavy Support choice?

Vypers are probably your best bet, though like Cheesegear said you can get good results from a Wave Serpant. Personally, I don't like to spend so many points on a transport - they're likely to be tempting targets already without the extra reward for destroying them - but I've occasionally tried it anyway and haven't yet been seriously disappointed.

Also on the pricy side, but I've lost count of the number of times that, where my Dark Reapers and Wraithlord have failed, a small squad of Warp Spiders including an Exarch with a Spinnerete Rifle have Deepstruck and wreaked havoc on anything short of a Land Raider. Jump Packs tend to make up for their otherwise average range.

But really, Vypers.

[Eldan]

Vypers are quite nice, really. Sure, they go down the moment anything shoots them, but you also get heavy weapons for cheap.

[Cheesegear]

Both of these would suit me well.
Aren't Vypers a bit too expensive and have a bit too low BS to work well with bright lances, though?

*shrug* You could go with the EML and Shuriken Cannon combo. It's Fast, after all.

But, seriously, it's like saying a Land Speeder with a Multi-Melta is crap. If you don't need it in your list, it's going to be terrible. If you do need it, you'll never leave home without it.

But, really, for what you're looking for, you can't go past Vypers.

Otherwise you're getting 110 point cannon fodder units Guardian Squads with Bright Lances. Which are scoring and only for an extra 35 points. But, that isn't including the Warlock that goes with them. Which you probably want because Guardians are terrible without one, and still BS3 anyway. Since your Farseer is on a Jetbike, it's probably too fast to support this unit, so, go with a Vyper.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'll take your word for it; looking at that sprue, it still looks to me like it should be possible to cut the thing off and put a boltpistol in its place, but if you say it's not, then it's probably more difficult than it appears to me...

Its theoretically possible, but the pose would look pretty horrible. You'd be better off sticking the sword and backpack on a tactical squad sergeant.

[crazedloon]

just my .02 on the AoBR set

I will agree it is sub par and the termies/dred should be dropped, however I feel that a vehicle of some sort need to be in the box. I started with 3rd edition and the edition of the speeder allowed me as a new player to better understand how vehicles worked and how to deal with them (and heck I played DE which only had the splinter cannon to deal with the speeder)

I would say a speeder variant of some kind would be the best option instead of the assault marines. Speeders are useful in any of the SM variant lists (yes assault marines are good but less so than a speeder) and it allows the new players to experience vehicle use without making the orks have a big problem winning (if you actually care about game balance in a starter set which I feel is a little silly) because shootas can hurt a speeder just fine

[Timberwolf]

Or go with the policy of the old second edition boxed set, the one where the Orks had the Dreadnaught (a cardboard cut out but still...)

Anyway, Wraith, are there any good bits shops in the Midlands ?

[Wraith]

Not. Everyone. Who. Plays. The. Game. Is. Competitive.
Not. Everyone. Plays. Mechanised. Not. Everyone. Wants. To. Play. Mechanised.
The. Internet. Is. The. Vocal. Minority.

I hereby make a formal request of you, Cheesegear: Put this (or something to this effect) in the OP?

Dress it up nice in polite language if you want to, but if we're here to teach people what we know, then we could do far, far worse than "We know what it says on the internet, and we just don't care".

Anyway, Wraith, are there any good bits shops in the Midlands ?

For building scenery, there's quite a few. I can think of several model shops just around where I am where cheap grass mats and similar resources are in abundance.

For GW bits, though? Maelstrom Games is based in Mansfield (Nottinghamshire), and that's pretty much it. Even that is such a long trip for me that it's always easier to order from eBay or - on very rare occasions - ask around in my local GW for trades.
If you do that, make sure the staff don't mind though. Usually, if you ask nicely, they're fine with it but it's polite to make sure.

[sircarp]

I don't think it's fair to say that the entire focus of the starter set should be on new players. There is a sizable secondary demographic of existing players who buy it for the mini rule book and the models. I think the existing set does a good job of catering to both new and old players; you get a bunch of neat, easy to assemble models for new players, and a relatively cheap supply of useful models for the existing player. For the new guys the models give a good spread of different unit types, so you cover almost all of the rules with the models included (AoBR covers vehicles, walkers, dreadnought CCW, invulnerable saves, jetbikes, etc). New players don't know enough to be faced with a bunch of wargear options for the models included, and older players have the bitz, tools and know-how to convert those options that they want.

Are the termies and dread included ideal from a competitive view? No, but they aren't useless set-ups, and the cost of a dread and a terminator squad is the same the cost of the starter set; If I want to use those units, I have an incentive to buy the set or buy the models from someone who bought a set and convert them to what I want; either way GW sells a starter set. The nice thing about those two units in particular is that they are useful in nearly every marine codex. Compare this to sniper scouts and assault marines; SW scouts aren't very good with rifles and skyclaws are a gimmick; BA like the assault marines, but the scouts are kind of meh; sniper scouts can work en masse for SM, but assault marines are kind of meh; older marine codices don't much like either option.

On a subjective level, I don't think that scouts and ASM have the same wow factor in the set as the terminators and dreadnought; it's a personal opinion, but I think having cooler units goes a long way in making the set appealing. Plus I like my cheap source of dreadnoughts and terminators.