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Thread: Unusual AOO question
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2017-11-19, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Unusual AOO question
Ok, so scenario is this:
Open door, room with black pudding in it.
Master of many forms is a willo'wisp and is the front line due to ridiculous AC.
Directly behind MoMF is a warlock shooting the BP with eldritch blast.
As the BP can't hit the MoMF, it uses reach to attack the warlock.
My question is this: as the BP is attacking the warlock who is directly behind the MoMF and is therefore attacking THROUGH the MoMF's square, should that have provoked an AOO, as it is shoving a physical appendage through an enemies occupied square, or is it just counted as an attack?
I've tried looking online for an answer to this, but it all seems to be about using reach weapons to do an AOO, not a natural reach weapon provoking an AOO.
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2017-11-19, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unusual AOO question
Attacking with natural weapons doesn't normally provoke an AoO.
Using your natural reach to attack somebody standing behind somebody else also doesn't provoke, although the target of the attack will benefit from soft cover.
Also, there really aren't any rules for attacking a creature's limbs or extremities (despite how much sense it makes when you're dealing with a big monster with more reach than you), so getting a free attack when an enemy's limb passes by you just isn't supported by the game rules.
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2017-11-19, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Player's Handbook page 151 has the answer.
When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
[...]
Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
[...]
Soft Cover: Creatures [...] can provide you with cover against ranged attacks [...]
The warlock is behind another creature, the Master of Many forms, granting them soft cover.
The pudding's attack would use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Soft cover provides cover against ranged attacks only.
The warlock has cover against the black pudding's reach attacks.
Ergo, the pudding cannot make a reach attack of opportunity in this situation.Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2017-11-19, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unusual AOO question
Last edited by jmax; 2017-11-19 at 01:50 PM. Reason: being wrong
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2017-11-19, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Davis, California
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2017-11-19, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unusual AOO question
Last edited by jmax; 2017-11-19 at 01:51 PM.
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2017-11-19, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2017-11-19, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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2017-11-19, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Right, ok then, cheers guys, that seems to have cleared it up :)
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2017-11-20, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Lake Jackson, TX
Re: Unusual AOO question
Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
I don't have any relevant rules with me, I just want to clear up what the question is.The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Vaz approval for the best backstory. Villainous Competition 16: Burn Baby Burn
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Honorable Mention Villainous Competition 22: I Am The Night
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2017-11-20, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2017-11-20, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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2017-11-20, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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2017-11-20, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Lake Jackson, TX
Re: Unusual AOO question
You know, I believe that with the OP's specific situation, the Black Pudding would indeed provoke an AoO for the Master of Many Forms to take advantage of.
To use quotes from the Players Handbook above,
Originally Posted by Above Poster
Since ranged attacks provoke AoO's, and the cover rules say to treat a reach attack against the target with cover, as ranged, it provokes.
The MoMF would get an AoO.
I'm happy to have learned this :) It makes since and I will apply it to my games now.The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Vaz approval for the best backstory. Villainous Competition 16: Burn Baby Burn
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=114
Honorable Mention Villainous Competition 22: I Am The Night
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Night!/page6 Xihu Ayame
Click my Vulpix to feed it yummy berries!
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2017-11-20, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unusual AOO question
You are incorrect. A reach weapon only determines the effects of cover as if it was a ranged weapon. This has no other effect, and it doesn't mean that attacking with a reach weapon suddenly provokes attacks of opportunity just like ranged weapons do. The attack is still a melee attack, as it says right there in the quoted text.
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2017-11-21, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unusual AOO question
That isn't to say it couldn't be a houserule, though.
At my table (if I were house ruling), I'd probably say: if the creature makes a melee reach attack through occupied space with a natural attack (including unarmed strikes), it provokes AoO.
Reach weapons don't provoke this way because they are designed not to. The entire purpose of a cutting edge on a long stick is to attack from range without provoking counter attack.
By this logic, they might ask to AoO the Reach Weapon itself, which I might actually allow on the Rule of Cool (you strategically forced your enemy to place their weapon into a compromised position). Especially if the AoO provokee has built themselves to sunder enemy objects.
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2017-11-21, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Unusual AOO question
The bolded portion is incorrect. It's only treated as a range attack for determining what enemies have cover to and from you, nothing more. The relevant section says absolutely nothing about AoOs.
Actually, i just realized something: since the Pudding in question is obviously at least Large (since it has reach), there's no need to attack 'through' the MoMF. You can draw a line from the top of the Pudding to the top of the Warlock without passing through the MoMF's cube, so the Warlock wouldn't even get soft cover. Essentially: why is this question relevant when the pudding can attack over the MoMF, instead of through it?
Which is already represented by them having Reach in the first place. After all, someone with 5 foot reach 10 feet away from you can't counterattack, can they?
Great, just what this game needs: another FU to natural weapon users.Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-11-21, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Oh, good point, I read that wrong.
Doesn't change the argument, though. The same cover rules apply to regular melee attacks.
Edit: Actually, the BP was responding to the warlock's Eldritch Blast use, wasn't it? Now I'm confused!
Hmm. Black puddings are huge, so you would think that, but this is in the rules:
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2017-11-21 at 08:35 AM.
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2017-11-21, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unusual AOO question
That is an excellent point, except it's a little dependent on the creature.
I'd accept this argument in a heartbeat if we were talking about a Giant; a humanoid who is taller than wide can easily arc an attack around a smaller foe.
But this is an ooze. In addition to not having preference towards which way it's oriented, it's also Mindless, meaning it is likely to make whatever attack requires the least effort. If it bypasses the creature directly in front because it can't hit it, it probably wouldn't think to arc its attacks around the creature it couldn't hit. Granted, this is also an argument that the ooze probably isn't smart enough to realize its attacks were ineffective to begin with, but I feel it's fair to bring into consideration.
No, but their 5ft reach ally standing 5ft closer to you still can, hence the applicability to this specific thread.
Psh. This is Natty Weapons dumped on by other melee combatants. Melee already couldn't have nice things. And if we argue Gish effects, Natty Weapons benefit from Gish just as much as any other beating stick.
I'm just saying if my players wanted to use this idea to creatively counter a monster's attacks, I'd probably give it to them if they argued their case well. I'm just saying any fool sorry enough to build into Sunder deserves to have a few moments to actually enjoy what few abilities they have.
I would be less likely to make this same ruling against players and use NPCs making the same attacks, due in no small part to the excessively limited scope of PCs who make natural attacks with reach (as opposed to monsters that do) who happen to be fighting NPCs who specialize in sunder.
But generally, no. I don't particularly feel like I've done any injustice to natural attacks. It's just passing advantages between types of nonmagical melee attacks, who all got the short end of the beatstick in the first place.
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2017-11-21, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Unusual AOO question
That's not how that works on two levels.
1.You can still attack through cover. It's only a +4 to AC. Even if he has cover, the attack's still possible.
2. That rule is only relevant if the lines you're required to make by this rule:
Originally Posted by srdAvatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-11-21, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Good point, ugh, I'm still thinking of the BP AoO scenario, which has been a mistake from the start .
Edit: Actually, the BP was responding to the warlock's Eldritch Blast use, wasn't it? That AoO would definitely be impossible.
In an open area, the BP can pick a corner and get at the warlock without incurring the cover penalty (if the MoMF is not square in the middle of the BP's 15' side, but off to the side), but in the scenario described above, there might be a wall in the way, depending on how far the MoMF and warlock moved into the room. If the MoMF is just inside the room, and the warlock just outside it, the BP cannot avoid attacking through cover--the MoMF counts as a low obstacle (N.B. the cover rules require you to draw the lines from your base square, so unless the BP is hovering, it cannot attack over the MoMF).Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2017-11-21 at 08:34 AM.
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2017-11-22, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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- Lake Jackson, TX
Re: Unusual AOO question
Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye
To clarify though, it's not reach weapons, it's melee attacks against nonadjacent targets.
Not trying to be a jerk, others will read this and may get confused. The subject is about a monster with reach, and some reach weapons can attack adjacent targets.
Originally Posted by Necroticplague
Why are you changing the battle grid into a 3-dimensional format? The rules you're trying to use only work for a 2-D overhead view.(See spoiler) Squares, not cubes. The relevant section says absolutely nothing about attacking over a creature.Spoiler: PH p.151 Big Creatures and CoverAny creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
Originally Posted by Necroticplague
Originally Posted by Necroticplague
Even using the same rules there is no 'one' corner of the BP's cube that would have a clear path to all 'eight' corners of the Warlock's cube.
Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
(Quick representation of potential battlemap)
000W0 00W00 Warlock
000MO 00M00 MoMF
BBBOO 0BBB0 Black Pudding
BBBOO 0BBB0 "
BBBOO 0BBB0 "The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Vaz approval for the best backstory. Villainous Competition 16: Burn Baby Burn
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=114
Honorable Mention Villainous Competition 22: I Am The Night
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Night!/page6 Xihu Ayame
Click my Vulpix to feed it yummy berries!
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2017-11-22, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Unusual AOO question
Fair enough. However, a black pudding, being Huge, is not one such exception.
Because the actual world of DnD is three-dimensional. There's Climbing, Flying, Swimming, Jumping to prove this.
I am using cubes for the area because DnD is not two-dimensional.That black pudding isn't a 3x3 space block on a flat plane, it's a 3x3x3 cube in space
By that logic, it's literally impossible to not have soft cover, because it's impossible to have a clear path to all 8 corners, because the creature itself would be in the way of at least 4 of them, thus granting itself soft cover.Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2017-11-22, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Right, hmm. From the text of the OP, I read the following:
- Door opens, MoMF steps inside, meets BP.
- MoMF does something that provokes.
- BP does not make AoO (saves it for later, cause of high MoMF AC).
- Warlock eldritch blasts BP.
- Using EB provokes (SLA).
- Pudding AoOs warlock.
- OP's question arises.
All these questions confused me about why I thought the BP was AoOing, but I knew it made sense somewhere...
Yep yep, my bad.
This is a silly argument in this context, because the same applies to squares. However, a close reading of the rules on page 150-151 of the PHB does suggest you could grant yourself soft cover at all times. Pretty nifty!Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2017-11-24, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Unusual AOO question
Good lord, this provoked a discussion!
Wow, thanks guys, this has brought a lot to the table.
Sorry, I haven't been on to clarify some issues, but life.
Anyhoo, during the game, we missed the potential AoO on the warlock by the BP, so that's one to bear in mind for future.
The main thrust of the question was whether the BP attacking through the MoMF's square would provoke an AoO from the MoMF on the BP.
The MoMF is standing in a 5" doorway with the warlock directly behind, so the pseudopod would go right past the MoMF.
MoMF didn't provoke an AoO from the BP as it went to initiatives and the MoMF went first.
Pretty sure I can pick the bones and get the gist, so thanks guys, much appreciated. :)