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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Two new sample builds added, contributed by nategar05.
    Perfect!
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Check out my post showing just how many utility effects you can pull out with just the evolution line of spells: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...?topic=13095.0

    Also please add in the 3 exotic weapons a Kali build would pick from: sawtooth sabre, mustard sword and a falcata

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by borg286 View Post
    Check out my post showing just how many utility effects you can pull out with just the evolution line of spells: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...?topic=13095.0

    Also please add in the 3 exotic weapons a Kali build would pick from: sawtooth sabre, mustard sword and a falcata
    I read your thread and found it very impressive

    Though I would recommend that you check the latest FAQ

    Link

    they clarify that you need to buy evolutions to use the synthesist's arms to attack
    They also mention that buying mental scores is not very useful since they have determined that the evo does not stack with the summoner
    And a couple more.

    But I think you did an amazing job on the calculations!

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Great guide, loved the read through. I've got a question that maybe people have already given thought too so I figured I'd ask it here.

    I'm considering rolling up a summoner for my local Pathfinder Society games and I've got this image in my mind of an elf huntress riding the back of a large or huge sized wolfbeast-creature-thing, peppering foes with arrows while it tears into them with melee attacks.

    Stat-wise, this would probably work by having a large eidolon around level 2, grabbing feats like mounted combat, shot on the run, precise shot, etc, and further evolutions along the lines of claws, bite, rend. I'd be using a quadreped eidolon.

    So here in lies my query/dilemma. If riding a creature that occupies 4 squares (assuming when I craft my eidolon into a large creature I can make it a 4 square base instead of the large, long of 2), can I ride one of the back squares and shoot into things that are in melee in the front squares (10 feet away by my count) without provoking an AOO from whatever I am shooting (barring reach, etc)? If I increase its size to huge, can I be on the back squares still? I mean, I do get to shape my eidolon.

    I'm aware this build isn't great by any means, and that doing something like a melee mounted summoner is a lot less feat intensive and probably more potent, but for some reason I'm attached to the idea.

    So guys, any thoughts?
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Stat-wise, this would probably work by having a large eidolon around level 2, grabbing feats like mounted combat, shot on the run, precise shot, etc, and further evolutions along the lines of claws, bite, rend. I'd be using a quadreped eidolon.

    So here in lies my query/dilemma. If riding a creature that occupies 4 squares (assuming when I craft my eidolon into a large creature I can make it a 4 square base instead of the large, long of 2), can I ride one of the back squares and shoot into things that are in melee in the front squares (10 feet away by my count) without provoking an AOO from whatever I am shooting (barring reach, etc)? If I increase its size to huge, can I be on the back squares still? I mean, I do get to shape my eidolon.
    2 things

    1) I'm not sure you can have a Large mount by lvl 2. the large evolution requires a higher level. You can get away with a medium mount if you have a small race (Never been a fan of them myself, but I see it as your only option). Casting Enlarge person is too time consuming

    Though maybe you can pull a centaur type with a synthesist.

    2) I seem to remember that, when riding a 2x2 mount, you can choose any of the 4 squares to be your position (this would also be my ruling as long as you keep it consistent). But I could be wrong

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Drothmal View Post
    I'm not sure you can have a Large mount by lvl 2. the large evolution requires a higher level. You can get away with a medium mount if you have a small race (Never been a fan of them myself, but I see it as your only option). Casting Enlarge person is too time consuming
    Totally missed that point, good catch. I suppose I could just GM in society till level 8, but I'll probably do something else instead. Anyway, what you said about the archery question was my thinking too - anyone else confirm / deny this?
    Last edited by Walter; 2011-09-22 at 02:59 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I guess that the critical for eidolon attacks, without weapons, is 20 x2. Right?
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurenthal View Post
    I guess that the critical for eidolon attacks, without weapons, is 20 x2. Right?
    That is the default for any weapon, natural or manufactured, so I would assume yes.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    OK, I'm been looking at some of the sample builds, and those with weapons seem incorrect. At least by how I've been reading the rules, and it all seems to stem from what appears to be an omission in the How Natural Attacks Work section of the guide above.

    Basically, the guide reads:
    If an eidolon wields a weapon, it can still make its natural attacks, but they are all counted as secondary attacks.
    Which by itself, seems to imply just a -5 (-2 with Multiattack) penalty on all the natural weapons, and no penalty on the main weapon.

    However, the rules (as per the PRD in the section on Natural Attacks), states:
    When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.
    The bold portion is the part that seems to be missing from the guide.
    Not only should the eidolon be taking the -5 (or -2 with multiattack) penalty on the natural attacks (as secondary attacks) there needs to be an additional -4 penalty on the weapon attack and -8 penalty on the natural attacks due to two-weapon fighting with a light weapon.

    So, for instance, the "Killer Centaur" example build, would have its full attack change from:
    +1 greatsword +18/+13 (3d6+16, 19-20 crit) and bite +16 (1d8+6) and 4 claws +16 (2d6+6)
    to:
    +1 greatsword +14/+9 (3d6+16, 19-20 crit) and bite +8 (1d8+6) and 4 claws +8 (2d6+6)
    One wonders if Multi-Weapon Fighting (or Two-Weapon Fighting if fewer arms) then becomes a necessity for these weapon/natural attack builds.

    I don't think I'm reading the rules incorrectly, but seems this would have been pointed out before now, so I must be missing something.

    Anyone with insights?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I believe that Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are not equivalent. Notice in the equpiment section, in the entry for Unarmed strikes:

    Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

    An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat).
    This would keep from applying the two weapon fighting penalties to the natural weapons at least, though you may be right about the weapon attack taking a -4.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    I believe that Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are not equivalent. Notice in the equpiment section, in the entry for Unarmed strikes:



    This would keep from applying the two weapon fighting penalties to the natural weapons at least, though you may be right about the weapon attack taking a -4.
    Yea well then in other areas like in magic fang and magic weapon go and say that unarmed attacks are natural weapons so obviously PF can't keep it straight.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Yea well then in other areas like in magic fang and magic weapon go and say that unarmed attacks are natural weapons so obviously PF can't keep it straight.
    Magic fang says "one natural weapon or unarmed strike", though you're right about Magic Weapon.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Magic fang says "one natural weapon or unarmed strike", though you're right about Magic Weapon.
    Lol did you happen to notice that in that spell it also can't seem to get it right?

    "The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon"

    That sentence implies that fists are natural weapons. They are not very good at this consistently game are they?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Lol did you happen to notice that in that spell it also can't seem to get it right?

    "The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon"

    That sentence implies that fists are natural weapons. They are not very good at this consistently game are they?
    They be counting armed fists, man.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I'm making an Eidolon build myself, and I was wondering, is there merit to the Gore attack Evolution? It does a lot of damage in one hit, which is generally a good thing as far as I can see.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexaduro View Post
    I'm making an Eidolon build myself, and I was wondering, is there merit to the Gore attack Evolution? It does a lot of damage in one hit, which is generally a good thing as far as I can see.
    Gore is costly for what it does, as Bite does the same damage for half the cost and has evolutions that build off of it, not least of which is getting Bite again for 1.5 Str. Slam does more damage than Gore does as well. I just don't see a reason you'd want it where Bite or Slam can't work for you unless you want it for how it looks or if you want a bull/boar type Eidolon.

    The only advantage I see is that you can get another primary natural attack without getting another head or pair of limbs to put it on.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-10-01 at 04:51 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Gore is costly for what it does, as Bite does the same damage for half the cost and has evolutions that build off of it, not least of which is getting Bite again for 1.5 Str. Slam does more damage than Gore does as well. I just don't see a reason you'd want it where Bite or Slam can't work for you unless you want it for how it looks or if you want a bull/boar type Eidolon.

    The only advantage I see is that you can get another primary natural attack without getting another head or pair of limbs to put it on.
    Oh, derp, I forgot about Slam. Bite doesn't fit too well with my Eidolon.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilMinion View Post
    OK, I'm been looking at some of the sample builds, and those with weapons seem incorrect. At least by how I've been reading the rules, and it all seems to stem from what appears to be an omission in the How Natural Attacks Work section of the guide above.

    Basically, the guide reads:

    Which by itself, seems to imply just a -5 (-2 with Multiattack) penalty on all the natural weapons, and no penalty on the main weapon.

    However, the rules (as per the PRD in the section on Natural Attacks), states:

    The bold portion is the part that seems to be missing from the guide.
    Not only should the eidolon be taking the -5 (or -2 with multiattack) penalty on the natural attacks (as secondary attacks) there needs to be an additional -4 penalty on the weapon attack and -8 penalty on the natural attacks due to two-weapon fighting with a light weapon.

    So, for instance, the "Killer Centaur" example build, would have its full attack change from:

    to:


    One wonders if Multi-Weapon Fighting (or Two-Weapon Fighting if fewer arms) then becomes a necessity for these weapon/natural attack builds.

    I don't think I'm reading the rules incorrectly, but seems this would have been pointed out before now, so I must be missing something.

    Anyone with insights?
    Without getting into any specifics of that, the Bestiary has the newer rules, and they don't count it as TWF. There's an FAQ on this, IIRC.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    In retrospect, for the Skill-dolon, I think MWP: Short Sword would be a better feat choice than Lunge, seeing as how Lunge would apply to less attacks because the base build has less attacks and because Lunge only applies on your turn. It'd be a good backup for DR if nothing else. I'd take Agile Maneuvers first and work Trip into the build earlier and then take MWP. Or even EWP: Elven Thin Blade if you can justify it to the GM.

    I considered straight up archery as well, but that's too feat intensive imo.


    Any other outside the box ideas for Eidolons? All else I can think of is magic support, but the magic evolutions don't seem very good. Maybe stabilize and cure spells in conjunction with Reselient Eidolon. That doesn't seem bad on paper, but you're giving up a lot of evolution points for that (not to mention the Cha prerequisite). Perhaps half-elf Summoner with Cleric-dolon? Just take Reselient Eidolon and Extra Evolution 4x and favored class gives you 5 more. Still doesn't seem worth it.
    Last edited by nategar05; 2011-10-06 at 09:34 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Great guide, loved the read through. I've got a question that maybe people have already given thought too so I figured I'd ask it here.

    I'm considering rolling up a summoner for my local Pathfinder Society games and I've got this image in my mind of an elf huntress riding the back of a large or huge sized wolfbeast-creature-thing, peppering foes with arrows while it tears into them with melee attacks.
    ...
    So guys, any thoughts?
    Play a small character with a medium mount, as large creatures are at a severe disadvantage in Society play due to lots of enclosed spaces.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Great guide, loved the read through. I've got a question that maybe people have already given thought too so I figured I'd ask it here.

    I'm considering rolling up a summoner for my local Pathfinder Society games and I've got this image in my mind of an elf huntress riding the back of a large or huge sized wolfbeast-creature-thing, peppering foes with arrows while it tears into them with melee attacks.
    I agree with others that (mechanically speaking anyway) a halfling makes the best mounted build. I'd think that a build that was "optimal" for the entirety of PFS would be better, rather than only having your build work for 1/3 of it.

    That notwithstanding, for flavor, do whatever you'd like. As much as I like optimizing and role-play to fit with the optimized, others may have a different style. Whatever floats your boat as they say. :)

    I haven't played PFS, but at level 10 and up I'd think you could use Improved Share Spell and Reduce Person to help with the cramping issue. Alternatively, a wand could also work. If I was intent on building this character, I'd consider Evolutionist and go Biped until 8th level, then change the base form to Quadruped for your mount.
    Last edited by nategar05; 2011-10-06 at 09:41 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Having lots of fun with my Synthesist
    At the moment he is working with the Gnome Alchemist. Between them they have bought a special battle-saddle for the quadruped eidolon form, and the Gnome rides into battle on the Synthesist whilst throwing bombs and using a longspear.
    Also, by RAW, the pounce-grab-rake combination can get mildly insane...

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    This a great guide. I would love to see it updated though.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    What are good skills for a "bear" eidolon?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Sufficating Strangulation from Dungeon Denizens Revisited looks like a useful feat for a Synthesist or an Eidalon. It requires Improved Grab and Constrict. The feat forces grappled opponents to start suffocating and making fort saves vs falling unconscious immediately. With the right build you could take the feat at level 1.

    I'd personally prefer putting some claws on a quadroped, then picking up pounce, improved grab, and constrict to work with those claws.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by darth_borehd View Post
    What are good skills for a "bear" eidolon?
    IMO, whatever your Summoner doesn't have that would be useful. To be more specific though:

    Perception: You probably suck at it and it's arguably the most important skill in the game. Bond senses for the really really important stuff, and just have him warn you of danger if possible.

    Intimidate: if you max you can eventually get Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display, but it's likely a max damage designed Eidolon has better uses of his combat actions. Intimidate is still useful on its own and easily thematically appropriate.

    Fly: You are giving him the ability to fly somehow, right?

    Climb, Swim: worth at least 1 rank for the class skill bonus.

    Knowledge (Planes): not that he'll be good at it, but it's appropriate to have at least 1 rank in it.

    Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive: Why not? It's not like you're putting the rest of your points into Stealth. Probably not, anyway.
    Last edited by nategar05; 2011-10-19 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Wait a sec, how can a bear fly?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Wait a sec, how can a bear fly?
    Magic Flight Evolution.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by nategar05 View Post
    IMO, whatever your Summoner doesn't have that would be useful. To be more specific though:

    Perception: You probably suck at it and it's arguably the most important skill in the game. Bond senses for the really really important stuff, and just have him warn you of danger if possible.

    Intimidate: if you max you can eventually get Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display, but it's likely a max damage designed Eidolon has better uses of his combat actions. Intimidate is still useful on its own and easily thematically appropriate.

    Fly: You are giving him the ability to fly somehow, right?
    I wasn't planning on it, But don't they get it for free when taking the flight evolution?

    Climb, Swim: worth at least 1 rank for the class skill bonus.
    If you take the climb and swim evolutions, do they become class skills?
    Knowledge (Planes): not that he'll be good at it, but it's appropriate to have at least 1 rank in it.

    Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive: Why not? It's not like you're putting the rest of your points into Stealth. Probably not, anyway.
    What about Use Magic Device? What would be the 4 most important skills to tag as class skills?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by darth_borehd View Post
    I wasn't planning on it, But don't they get it for free when taking the flight evolution?


    If you take the climb and swim evolutions, do they become class skills?


    What about Use Magic Device? What would be the 4 most important skills to tag as class skills?
    Ranks in Fly makes it better at flying if you want it.

    The Climb and Swim evolutions give it a climb or swim speed equal to its base speed. Each additional time gives +20 ft. I said Climb and Swim for the class skill bonus because I'm so used to making them class skills for my Eidolon. I don't get the evolutions for them, but just 1 rank with the class skill bonus is probably good enough.

    Use Magic Device isn't for your Eidolon. It's best if you do it because you have a really high Cha (at least higher than its anyway) and you already have arms that can wield them. It'd be too inconvenient and expensive to have it do it.

    For class skills, I'd go with Climb, Swim, Diplomacy, and Acrobatics every time unless you have a specific reason for others. Note you only get Fly for free if it has a fly speed and I don't think casting Fly on it counts. Also, I did a build where the Eidolon was the rogue of the party. It had Disable Device as a class skill. I also gave it arms. More of a fun exercise than a legitimate character, though I'd think that it'd pull its weight in utility. I haven't played it myself.
    Last edited by nategar05; 2011-10-19 at 08:17 PM.

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