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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Wait a sec, how can a bear fly?
    You've heard of Owlbears, right?
    Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
    Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
    I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    That said, trolling is entirely counterproductive (yes, even when it's hilarious).

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    You've heard of Owlbears, right?
    Owlbears canīt fly
    Welcome to the Internet where opinions are facts and sources don't matter!
    I GOT A 4

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Celestial Bear+normal bear=Half celestial bear.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Vital Strike refers specifically to the Attack action, which takes a standard action. A full attack or AoO is neither.
    Note that a readied action is, making it viable for archers/gunslingers to interrupt casting, but little else. As your pet is likely not a ranged combatant, this doesn't matter much.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2011-10-21 at 10:14 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I have been looking into dipping Synthesist and going Alchemist(Vivisectionist) the rest of the way, for sneak attack damage and some cool weirdness and "spells".
    Clearly the problem is that the Bab of a 1st level Eidolon is 1, and the Synthesist uses the Bab of the Eidolon.
    I haven't found a way around this per say, but was considering getting Pounce/Claws/Strength, and dumping most feats into Extra Evolution( Ability Increase)boosting the Strength, counting on that bonus to get me through. Would this be viable?
    ... Looking into it, it would not, as the Ability Increase evolution can only be applied once every 6 levels...
    Any other ideas?


    Another question I had was the use of magic by a Sythesist who's Eidolon form has no hands. Would the characters limbs work for casting from "inside" the Outsider shell, or would he need to buy a limb?
    If he does need to buy a limb,would a tentacle do, or would an actual arm be needed?

    One more question: could one have an Eidolon that had a "compartment" as part of its anatomy? For example,a set of steampunk armor with room for a guy inside, or a swan shaped boat or even a flying saucer or scout walker.
    When using minions in the past I often employed a device intended for Familiars, designed to give them full cover vs. area effect spells.Basically a portable safe room of wood and iron, they came in every size that familiers did, including Medium...
    Slung over the back of a Large/Huge humanoid they made for a nice place to cast buff from, sort of an off the shelf armored howdah.
    If I could get that built into my custom build minion, so much the better!


    Thanks for any help you can give, nice guide, btw!

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    They clarified that the Eidolons BAB only replaces the BAB from your Summoner levels.
    Prestige Bard, updated for Pathfinder.

    Revamped Spell Resistance system, for use with Spell Points/Psionics.

  7. - Top - End - #307
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Trying to make a PF Summoner Synthethist. Trying not to be TOO broken, but it is a low magic low gold world, and I don't want to be useless. I also didn't list every evolution for every level, but I'll end up with a gore/slam/bite with claws filling in the rest of attacks, wielding a curved elven blade so I'll end up with 10 attacks a round on a pounce/full action. My main concern is that if I do not get the approval and ability to make wands, this character will never work...healing my eidolons hp with 3 spells a day? hahahahahahahaha.

    Any suggestions would be helpful.

    Posted a build at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219647
    Anyone have any suggestions?

  8. - Top - End - #308
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    What tier would you say the summoner inhabits? Are summoned monsters versatile enough to bring the class up to tier 2?


  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I think being a (weaker than average, but still good) spell caster AND a fighter with 2 sets of actions makes them tier 2 more than the summoning.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    I think being a (weaker than average, but still good) spell caster AND a fighter with 2 sets of actions makes them tier 2 more than the summoning.
    not really; tier 2 is defined by the ability to break the game, albeit in a limited number of ways. sure, it can break action economy slightly, but it still can't do much with the extra actions other than "I hit it again."

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I think Gate 3+CHA times/day as a spell like ability, excellent 2/3 spellcasting, and a very decent pet put it in tier 2 territory.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hey im staring a Lv. 10 Summoner (half-elf) in my new pathfinder game and I am in love with the "Killer Centaur" build. When I approached the DM with my character he noticed a problem with the build. This is what he said:

    "Why doesn't the Killer Centaur Build have the "two weapon fighting" feat because in the core rulebook page 182 states fighting with manufactured and natural weapons, your manufactured weapon "primary" is considered fighting with two weapons as primary. The feat Multiattack only modifies secondary weapons. You would need the Two Weapon Fighting Feat for this to work. The primary weapon would have a -4 w/o the feat, and secondary weapons would have a -2 with Multiattack."

    Is this true or his he wrong? Cause I really like this build and would hate for it to be watered down. Thanks ahead of time.
    Last edited by SapphireARC; 2011-10-22 at 03:29 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurenthal View Post
    Owlbears canīt fly
    Well, sure. Not if you have them the wrong way around...
    Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
    Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
    I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    That said, trolling is entirely counterproductive (yes, even when it's hilarious).

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireARC View Post
    Hey im staring a Lv. 10 Summoner (half-elf) in my new pathfinder game and I am in love with the "Killer Centaur" build. When I approached the DM with my character he noticed a problem with the build. This is what he said:

    "Why doesn't the Killer Centaur Build have the "two weapon fighting" feat because in the core rulebook page 182 states fighting with manufactured and natural weapons, your manufactured weapon "primary" is considered fighting with two weapons as primary. The feat Multiattack only modifies secondary weapons. You would need the Two Weapon Fighting Feat for this to work. The primary weapon would have a -4 w/o the feat, and secondary weapons would have a -2 with Multiattack."

    Is this true or his he wrong? Cause I really like this build and would hate for it to be watered down. Thanks ahead of time.
    Post here

    That post and a post a few posts down. Long story short is they changed that rule and the new rule is in the Bestiary. It just hasn't been updated yet.

  15. - Top - End - #315
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Oh I see the rule now:

    "PAGE 302 OF BESTIARY: Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with
    weapons can use both as part of a full attack action
    (although often a creature must forgo one natural
    attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a
    claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their
    weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks
    as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the
    attack’s original type."

    Thanks for that one.

    He also mentions that I can't cast Enlarge Person on my Eidolon. I mentioned that I can with the "Share Spells Eidolon Ability". He read it over and still said that I couldn't because he said "It only works with spells with a target of 'YOU' and nothing else".

    I interpreted it as "if you need to cast a spell on your eidolon that states "you", you must make a touch for it to be cast upon him. While all else acts normally. Am I right or is my DM right?
    Last edited by SapphireARC; 2011-10-23 at 12:11 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #316
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireARC View Post
    He also mentions that I can't cast Enlarge Person on my Eidolon. I mentioned that I can with the "Share Spells Eidolon Ability". He read it over and still said that I couldn't because he said "It only works with spells with a target of 'YOU' and nothing else".

    I interpreted it as "if you need to cast a spell on your eidolon that states "you", you must make a touch for it to be cast upon him. While all else acts normally. Am I right or is my DM right?
    Your DM read the wrong line from Share Spells. The line he wants is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eidolon, Share Spells
    A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider).
    So you can affect your Eidolon with Enlarge Person despite that your Eidolon being an Outsider. The first line is only in relation to personal spells, like Shield. Also do note that Enlarge Person isn't a personal spell, it has a range of Close, so the line about personal spells being able to affect the Eidolon instead has no bearing on it, just the line I quoted, as long as you cast them from your Summoner spells.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-10-23 at 08:40 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #317
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Awesome thanks a lot!

    EDIT:

    Lol, I told him about Shared Spells and he STILL says that everyone is reading it wrong lol. He is so sure that he is right. I just can't win
    Last edited by SapphireARC; 2011-10-23 at 04:58 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireARC View Post
    Awesome thanks a lot!

    EDIT:

    Lol, I told him about Shared Spells and he STILL says that everyone is reading it wrong lol. He is so sure that he is right. I just can't win
    Tell him it's RAW according to everyone except him. If that doesn't work, tell him it's RAI. Unless he thinks the game designers intended on the Summoner casting it on himself instead of his Eidolon.

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    This is the DM. Don't want to sound mean but just wanted to make sure everything was in check. Thanks for ref in the bestiary that helped so the Eidolon gets -2 to all its attacks with the multiattack. I aslo stated to sapphirearc that i would have to read it again to make sure and not just take the majorities word . Yes he can cast Enlarge Person on his Eidolon.

  20. - Top - End - #320
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireARC View Post
    Awesome thanks a lot!

    EDIT:

    Lol, I told him about Shared Spells and he STILL says that everyone is reading it wrong lol. He is so sure that he is right. I just can't win
    Went through exactly this a while ago. Enlarge Person is about the ONLY spell on the Summoner's list that doesn't normally effect outsiders, so if you can't use it on the eidolon, what is that particular line all about?

    Besides, the stat changes that Enlarge Person give don't in any way match up with having an actual 'Large' Eidolon, so it's not that broken.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleck6969 View Post
    This is the DM. Don't want to sound mean but just wanted to make sure everything was in check. Thanks for ref in the bestiary that helped so the Eidolon gets -2 to all its attacks with the multiattack. I aslo stated to sapphirearc that i would have to read it again to make sure and not just take the majorities word . Yes he can cast Enlarge Person on his Eidolon.
    to be clear about multi attack and Weilded weapons & Natural Weapons.

    In a Full Attack with 1 wielded weapon and natural weapons, the wielded weapon has fully normal attack bonuses (including multiple attacks at BaB 6 and above), but the natural weapons are at -5 to hit, and only get 1/2 strength bonus damage.

    With multiattack, the natural weapon penalty is reduced to -2

    If Two Weapon Fighting AND using natural attacks, the TWF penalty stacks on top of the natural weapon penalties.

    BTW, though it's not been officially translated to Pathfinder, 3.5 had a feat Improved Multi Attack which reduced the attack penalty of secondary natural weapons to 0
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  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    yes the manufactured weapon is at the full bab and all the natural attacks are at a -2

  23. - Top - End - #323
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I just wanted to say 'Thanks very much' to Saph for the extremely helpful handbook.

    Also, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet; but "Rending Fury" from Ultimate Combat reduces the number of claw attacks required for the rend effect to kick in by half.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...ng-fury-combat

    So your first claw attack that hits would do 2xbase damage + 2.5xStr Mod.

    (That was my teeny tiny contribution )
    Last edited by Justaidan; 2011-10-25 at 06:25 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Justaidan View Post
    I just wanted to say 'Thanks very much' to Saph for the extremely helpful handbook.

    Also, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet; but "Rending Fury" from Ultimate Combat reduces the number of claw attacks required for the rend effect to kick in by half.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...ng-fury-combat

    So your first claw attack that hits would do 2xbase damage + 2.5xStr Mod.

    (That was my teeny tiny contribution )
    According to the specific entries for Eidolons, an Eidolon with Claw, Grab and Rend only needs ONE claw to hit and successfully grapple to get two rend attacks (but you have to hit with them)

  25. - Top - End - #325
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Nice.

    I am currently preparing a Synthesist in case my current character dies, which is highly likely due to his headstrong attitude when civilians are in danger in the middle of an undead apocalypse.

    I trying to decide if Imp. Unarmed Strikes + Feral Combat and so on is a nice line to follow for style purposes, maybe picking up Ki Throw for battlefield control. So I was looking around here for ideas.

    The game I am playing in isn't playing with highly optimised players so I have a fair bit of space to play around with stuff that just seems cool and still contribute.

    (Aside so no one takes the above the wrong way: Nothing wrong with optimisation, I do it loads, but I prefer to play when the different characters are fairly close in terms of mechanical power / tiers. Thankfully pathfinder is far better in that regard than straight 3.5)
    Last edited by Justaidan; 2011-10-26 at 01:29 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #326
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    hi!
    maybe you guys can make this clear for me,
    a eldolon of a Synthesist summoner don't have skills and feats?

    on the book say that they don't have feats or skills for his own!
    so that means that he doesn't have, or only when they share the same form?

  27. - Top - End - #327
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduhero View Post
    hi!
    maybe you guys can make this clear for me,
    a eldolon of a Synthesist summoner don't have skills and feats?

    on the book say that they don't have feats or skills for his own!
    so that means that he doesn't have, or only when they share the same form?
    From the looks of it, only while the Synthesist and Eidolon are fused together, which is all the time except when the Eidolon is on his home plane or the Synthesist is level 16 and can separate from the Eidolon.

    EDIT: Makes you wonder what happens if the Synthesist travels to his Eidolon's plane...
    Last edited by Larpus; 2011-10-31 at 08:44 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    so that means that at level 11

    you have 6 feats by yourself, and 5 for eidolon....
    and alot of skills?......
    thats king of broken.......

    and i have been thinking
    a figther Synthesist its very cool, but you can make a caster one.....
    and i realy think that Ability Increase can make a pimp on the int char or wis of the summoner....since he got all the evolution pool from eidolon

  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    No, no, the Eidolon has feats and skills as it is a living creature, however, whenever he is merged with the Synthesist, his mind is inaccessible, which means that a Synthesist doesn't get to use (or choose as it makes no difference) his Eidolon's skills or feats until level 16, when he can separate from the Eidolon and the Eidolon mind becomes active again and the situation is that of a normal Summoner.

    And supposing a normal Summoner, that is one of the reasons why the class is somewhat broken as it "gets" more feats, skills, features, HP and actions per round than any other class (except for those with Animal Companions, but an Eidolon is more versatile and overall better).

    But as crazy awesome as that may seem, they're not grossly overpowered because a single use of any abilities that banishes outsiders can seriously mess them up, bad.

    EDIT: Also, they're half-casters, so they're far from "Druid broken".
    Last edited by Larpus; 2011-10-31 at 10:07 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #330
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    but that make a Synthesist a bad class....
    its more dificult to kill him but....
    a normal summoner its better.....

    and i realy think that summoner its a powerless class....

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