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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    The SRD says I have to have Limbs: Arms to make a slam, and those arms are going to be full wielding a weapon... Then again the general rule does say that I can make slams while wielding a weapon as secondary attacks...
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayd View Post
    Question: Any ideas for feats if we have access to 3.5 material as well?
    I'd start with checking stuff in Mastering the Malconvoker and related handbooks (linked in the book) due to overlap.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2011-12-15 at 11:11 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Crasical View Post
    The SRD says I have to have Limbs: Arms to make a slam, and those arms are going to be full wielding a weapon... Then again the general rule does say that I can make slams while wielding a weapon as secondary attacks...
    It's a free action to let go of one hand on your two-hander to bash somebody in the face and a free action to regrab it?
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Is this guide going to be updated to include the options from Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat?

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Is it possible to stack the Reach evolution to have a single natural attack with ridiculous range?
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Crasical View Post
    Is it possible to stack the Reach evolution to have a single natural attack with ridiculous range?
    Quote Originally Posted by PF SRD
    Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.
    Unfortunately, Reach does not have any text saying it can be taken more than once or once per natural attack. It appears you can take it once and only once. Choose that natural attack carefully...
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Brand new, so unsure of exact protocol:
    Can a Eidolon read the various tomes that increase stats?

    Morien

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    Brand new, so unsure of exact protocol:
    Can a Eidolon read the various tomes that increase stats?

    Morien
    Eidolons don't appear illiterate, so I think they can. The only thing stopping them is the expense of manuals and tomes.
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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    If you take the Serpentine form, are you required to use the tail slap as one of your attacks, or can you add evolutions that will give you a different attack that you can choose over it? In other words, can I add enough type of attacks that I will go over my max attacks and then choose which ones to use?

    Morien

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    If you take the Serpentine form, are you required to use the tail slap as one of your attacks, or can you add evolutions that will give you a different attack that you can choose over it? In other words, can I add enough type of attacks that I will go over my max attacks and then choose which ones to use?

    Morien
    That depends....
    The wording (from the PFsrd, emphasis mine)
    This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
    On the other hand you have something like the Brood Master
    the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks.
    The problem is that at Broodmaster 2, you can have 2 Eidolons out, but a Max Attack limit of 3. What if you decided one of your Eidolons was a Biped and the other a Serpentine?
    Or at Broodmaster 8, when you can have 4 Eidolons, but a Max Attack limit of only 4?


    My final answer?
    As with most things Summoner, ask your DM.
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  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Thanks for the replies so far.

    Why doesn't the Eidolon have an ability increase at level 20?

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    Thanks for the replies so far.

    Why doesn't the Eidolon have an ability increase at level 20?
    Eidolon HD doesn't advance at the same rate the Summoner does. At 20th, it has 15 HD, so it doesn't get an ability increase any more than anyone else would. The table delineates when it gets ability increases, when its divisible by 4, like every other creature.
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hi

    Max attacks affect only Natural Attacks - not those with manufactuerd weapons, like swords.

    You could end up with something like a Marilith if you want, but you'd need the Multi Attack feat to offset those multi-weapon penalties.

    Thanks
    Paul H

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    Hi

    Max attacks affect only Natural Attacks - not those with manufactuerd weapons, like swords.

    You could end up with something like a Marilith if you want, but you'd need the Multi Attack feat to offset those multi-weapon penalties.

    Thanks
    Paul H
    I believe you mean Multiweapon Fighting. Multiattack supports natural weapons.
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  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Eidolon HD doesn't advance at the same rate the Summoner does. At 20th, it has 15 HD, so it doesn't get an ability increase any more than anyone else would. The table delineates when it gets ability increases, when its divisible by 4, like every other creature.
    Thanks, I got caught up in looking at just the levels and didn't look at HD. It makes sense now.

    Looking at a Lillend type Eidolon, but without the magic. Going for max natural attacks and one 2-Handed Weapon attack. Suggestions for builds/feats?

  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    New Question:

    Does Enlarge Person work on all base forms of your Eidolon, or just if you take a Biped?

    If it does, please give me chapter and verse so I can convince my GM.
    If not, has anyone researched the spell, Enlarge Monster or Enlarge Serpentile forms?

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    No reason it would only work on that form.

    Note that Enlarge Person works on humanoids as a type (while your Elidoon is an outsider, Share Spells explicitly allows you to bypass that), not a body structure.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-01-03 at 01:47 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    No reason it would only work on that form.

    Note that Enlarge Person works on humanoids as a type (while your Elidoon is an outsider, Share Spells explicitly allows you to bypass that), not a body structure.
    However, my GM has stated that EP works on humanoids PERIOD. If I take a serpentine form, then it doesn't work. That's why I was asking for chapter and verse from Paizo. I figured I would check here first, as this appears to be the comprehensive site for Summoners.

    btw, thanks for answering.
    Morien

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    What you need is under "Share Spells" then

    "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)"

  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    What you need is under "Share Spells" then

    "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)"
    My thanks again, deuxhero, for answering. Unfortunately, he will say that the rule there says, that is the reason you can cast EP on a biped eidolon, and your serpentile form is not a biped. I need a ruling that I can show in print or on-line that says EP can work on a eidolon no matter what its form.

    Can anyone help me out here?

    Morien

  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    My thanks again, deuxhero, for answering. Unfortunately, he will say that the rule there says, that is the reason you can cast EP on a biped eidolon, and your serpentile form is not a biped. I need a ruling that I can show in print or on-line that says EP can work on a eidolon no matter what its form.

    Can anyone help me out here?

    Morien
    Does the spell state it can only be used on bipeds? No. Does the description of the humanoid type in the CRB say that humanoids must be bipedal? No. Does Share Spell say that spells that can normally could not be used on Eidolons can be used on Eidolons? Yes.

    He is the one carrying the burden of proof here, not you.
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  22. - Top - End - #382
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Does the spell state it can only be used on bipeds? No. Does the description of the humanoid type in the CRB say that humanoids must be bipedal? No. Does Share Spell say that spells that can normally could not be used on Eidolons can be used on Eidolons? Yes.

    He is the one carrying the burden of proof here, not you.
    Thx to curious. Unfortunately, he'll bring out the dictionary and show
    "humanoid [ˈhjuːməˌnɔɪd]
    adj
    like a human being in appearance
    n
    1. (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a being with human rather than anthropoid characteristics
    2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (in science fiction) a robot or creature resembling a human being" (Collins English Dictionary)

    So, a snake is NOT human in appearance. He'll say I need arms (I can live with that as I want to have a Lillend Azata appearance. But he'll also say I need legs. That's 2 more evolution points. I'll spend them if necessary, but then my eidolon won't be where I want to take her at lvl 20. plus it's 2 points I can't use elsewhere until I get the large evolution.

    Suggestions?

    Morien

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    Thx to curious. Unfortunately, he'll bring out the dictionary and show
    "humanoid [ˈhjuːməˌnɔɪd]
    adj
    like a human being in appearance
    n
    1. (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a being with human rather than anthropoid characteristics
    2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (in science fiction) a robot or creature resembling a human being" (Collins English Dictionary)

    So, a snake is NOT human in appearance. He'll say I need arms (I can live with that as I want to have a Lillend Azata appearance. But he'll also say I need legs. That's 2 more evolution points. I'll spend them if necessary, but then my eidolon won't be where I want to take her at lvl 20. plus it's 2 points I can't use elsewhere until I get the large evolution.

    Suggestions?

    Morien
    Find a new DM? IMO he's just being a douche at this point. You allready took the weakest base form, from a raw power standpoint, is there really a need to punish you further for that? Would you really become overpowered if you were able to use it? I dont think so.

  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    Thx to curious. Unfortunately, he'll bring out the dictionary and show
    "humanoid [ˈhjuːməˌnɔɪd]
    adj
    like a human being in appearance
    n
    1. (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a being with human rather than anthropoid characteristics
    2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (in science fiction) a robot or creature resembling a human being" (Collins English Dictionary)

    So, a snake is NOT human in appearance. He'll say I need arms (I can live with that as I want to have a Lillend Azata appearance. But he'll also say I need legs. That's 2 more evolution points. I'll spend them if necessary, but then my eidolon won't be where I want to take her at lvl 20. plus it's 2 points I can't use elsewhere until I get the large evolution.

    Suggestions?

    Morien
    Again, that is what share spell is for. The spell would not normally be able to effect the Eidolon? Well, it can now, because your class feature says so. Point out to him that Enlarge Person is practically the only spell in the entire Summoner spell list that doesn't work on the Eidolon without that class feature, so why would it be there otherwise?
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  25. - Top - End - #385
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Curious and Deuxhero (and for everyone else),

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Again, that is what share spell is for. The spell would not normally be able to effect the Eidolon? Well, it can now, because your class feature says so. Point out to him that Enlarge Person is practically the only spell in the entire Summoner spell list that doesn't work on the Eidolon without that class feature, so why would it be there otherwise?
    Found this in Bestiary, page 308, Paizo's definition:

    Humanoid:
    A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a human-like torso, arms, and a head.

    Since I have a head, and 2 arms, and have declared it to be similar to a Lillend, I think I am covered. And that means I should be able to cast it on my Eidolon.

    Thanks to all.
    Morien

  26. - Top - End - #386
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    My thanks again, deuxhero, for answering. Unfortunately, he will say that the rule there says, that is the reason you can cast EP on a biped eidolon, and your serpentile form is not a biped. I need a ruling that I can show in print or on-line that says EP can work on a eidolon no matter what its form.

    Can anyone help me out here?

    Morien
    Well, standard statutory construction; the only thing in the rules that affect specific eidolon base forms are certain evolutions. Nowhere does it say that a spell can affect only a specific base form. He is trying to create rules. There is no way you can disprove him, because his rule doesn't exist.

    Much like (to the best of my knowledge) nowhere does it say that you need teeth to cast spells, even though it is very difficult to form the correct sounds without teeth.

    Sadly, the DM never has the burden of proof; DMs control the world.

    But the reading of the exact language is quite clear. "Share Spells (Ex): ... A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). ..."

    Enlarge person affects humanoid. This is not "Earthbound Humanoid". And I do not think there is such a thing as an "Outsider Humanoid" (but I could be wrong). Your DM is making up distinctions.
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  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    Curious and Deuxhero (and for everyone else),



    Found this in Bestiary, page 308, Paizo's definition:

    Humanoid:
    A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a human-like torso, arms, and a head.

    Since I have a head, and 2 arms, and have declared it to be similar to a Lillend, I think I am covered. And that means I should be able to cast it on my Eidolon.

    Thanks to all.
    Morien
    it doesn't matter what a humanoid is. share spells lets you.

  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I see this guide say over and over again. DO NOT Multi-Class!

    I know what I'm losing by Multi-Classing, but I've had good luck as a Multiclassed character and frankly was quite suprised myself.

    The title I have been branded with in my party is "The Chocobo Knight."

    I am a Level 5 Cleric / 6 Summoner / 2 Paladin

    Our DM let me take the Mount Evolution on my bird because I'm a Gnome and with my Sheyln's chosen weapon being the Glaive-Guisarme and havinging the "Death from Above" feat, I kinda look like one of those characters from Joust when I fight :P

    My Eidolon's stat's aren't that great and my spells are weak from multi-classing, but my attack bonus is still pretty high and my bird is still hella affective just like me ;)

    Here are her evolutions.

    Improved Damage - Claws (1)
    Improved Natural Armor (1)
    Magic Attack (1)
    Mount (1)
    Pull (1)
    Flight (2)
    Rake (2)

    And then depending on the situation, I usually do a Knowledge check to see what element our enemy is weak against and use my Evolution spell to cast Energy attacks (2) and whatever else the situation calls for. At the low levels "Pull" was a very useful evolution as I took the feat improved Grapple (Bite), I would use the bird to pull monsters away from the wounded characters ;) At the higher levels, that is still pretty useful. :)

    I definately want to up to lvl 8 in summoner to get the "Large" evolution and more levels of Flight so it's magical and my bird can wear Heavy Barding without issues.

    Still, what works, works and my multi-classing has worked for me. I can top off people's HP with my Positive Energy Bursts, I have great saves from my Paladin levels and already high Charisma levels, and my mount is able to be pulled out where ever I need her. "What's that Mrs. Gigglesworth? The Lich is on the other side of the Force Wall? Well, you go home and I'll summon you over there." ;)

    In a pet duel, I'm pretty sure my pet would lose, but she's been a great companion and a useful ally. :)
    Last edited by Missfortune; 2012-01-04 at 07:51 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #389
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Conkea View Post
    ...You allready took the weakest base form, from a raw power standpoint
    Serpentine? Weakest base form?
    Gundolon would like a word with you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Missfortune View Post
    I see this guide say over and over again. DO NOT Multi-Class!
    .....
    I am a Level 5 Cleric / 6 Summoner / 2 Paladin....
    "Do not multi-class" means basically the same thing as "Never play a Monk".
    In that, from an optimization standpoint you'd be better off obeying, but from a flavor standpoint (or certain Houserules/Homebrew) do what you want.

    In your case you might have been better off going Paladin 8 and using the Paladin's Mount. Your Mount's combat abilities would suffer, but your's would be better. And you'd have Channeling from Paladin levels, more Smite Evil, Aura's, Mercies, etc...


    Also, you'd be better off with levels in Holy Vindicator instead of more Cleric (Cleric 1/Holy Vin X). It advances Spellcasting (3/4ths), stacks for Channeling strength, has Full Bab, and some other random goodies.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2012-01-04 at 10:54 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Serpentine? Weakest base form?
    Gundolon would like a word with you.
    That's a rather specific build that involves multiclassing with a class which may or may not be allowed depending on setting. Both of the other forms have significant advantages over serpentine outside the gundalon.
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