[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[grarrrg]

That's a rather specific build that involves multiclassing with a class which may or may not be allowed depending on setting. Both of the other forms have significant advantages over serpentine outside the gundalon.

You make a strong argument sir,

My rebuttal is as follows:





On a more serious note, I agree that it is a VERY specific build, but one that can dish out quite a lot of hurt in very little time.
In general I agree that a Biped (reach/Str) or Quad (Pounce) are the better options.
And you specifically said "weakest...from a raw power standpoint", the Gundolon has Raw Power, that's about all it has, but it has it.
So you, good sir, need to respect the insane craziness (crazy insaneness?) of the Gundolon's damage output.

[Missfortune]

In your case you might have been better off going Paladin 8 and using the Paladin's Mount. Your Mount's combat abilities would suffer, but your's would be better. And you'd have Channeling from Paladin levels, more Smite Evil, Aura's, Mercies, etc...


Also, you'd be better off with levels in Holy Vindicator instead of more Cleric (Cleric 1/Holy Vin X). It advances Spellcasting (3/4ths), stacks for Channeling strength, has Full Bab, and some other random goodies.

I was thinking about getting some umph back into my character's Spells by going Mystic Theurge instead. I'd like to get to cast 4th Level Spells in both my Spell Classes. As I can already Smite at least once when I need it, and have the saves to shrug off most things, and don't really feel at this point getting mercies will help me, I'll read up on the Holy Vindicator, but my base classes were the Cleric and Summoner, I'd prefer to keep building off of those.

[Missfortune]

Okay, so I just read Holy Vindicator.... EEEEeeeeewwww!

[grarrrg]

Okay, so I just read Holy Vindicator.... EEEEeeeeewwww!

Granted, we are already fairly off-topic on the thread, but care to elaborate on that?

I see Holy Vindicator mostly as an update to the 3.5-Prestige-Paladin. And that was a decent class. (not mind blowing, but decent).

*attempt to re-rail thread*

Also, you may be spreading yourself a tad bit too thin going Cleric/Summoner/Paladin/Mystic Theurge.
On the other hand, you DO already meet the pre-reqs.

Summoner's don't have 'enough' casting to be worth advancing _just_ their casting.
Cleric casting is worth advancing, but MTheurge does not advance Channeling/Domain powers.
Also, Cleric and Summoner are both 3/4 Bab, MTheurge is only 1/2.

However, if your DM is pretty easy going, you may try to trade away MTheurge Arcane casting, and have it advance your Eidolon instead. (and see if he'll throw in Channel progression and/or 3/4 Bab while you're at it)

^ That is a reasonable homebrew I thought up to make the Summoner more Mutli/PrC friendly.
"Any level that would advance the Summoner's Casting may instead advance the Summoner's Eidolon as if the Summoner had gained a level."

It makes Eldritch Knights and Dragon Disciples tempting options for a "Flanking-Buddy" Summoner.

[Crasical]

Granted, we are already fairly off-topic on the thread, but care to elaborate on that?

I'd assume it's about the Stigmata and 'Rain of blood' powers.

[grarrrg]

I'd assume it's about the Stigmata and 'Rain of blood' powers.

Ah, more "Eww Gross", less "Eww Sucks".
Well, with his current build he's already level 13, so no Bloodrain for him anyway.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've looked through the initial parts of the Handbook and it seems like there's little information in the Handbook proper about Synthesist summoners. What would some of the main differences be (in terms of number crunching, the differences in class features are obvious) between Synthesist and a regular Summoner?

I'm toying with an idea of playing a Synthesist Summoner who is in fact the mortal avatar of a god, and the Eidolon is his true divine being emerging briefly, and once he reaches the pinnacle of his power he ascends.

[Cieyrin]

I've looked through the initial parts of the Handbook and it seems like there's little information in the Handbook proper about Synthesist summoners. What would some of the main differences be (in terms of number crunching, the differences in class features are obvious) between Synthesist and a regular Summoner?

I'm toying with an idea of playing a Synthesist Summoner who is in fact the mortal avatar of a god, and the Eidolon is his true divine being emerging briefly, and once he reaches the pinnacle of his power he ascends.

The Handbook only talks about what was available as of the APG, so it's a bit dated where UM and UC come in. Plus the matter of a lot of things are rather unclear where Synthesist's come in in any case, so it's kind of a pain to work out at the moment.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So what should I do?

[King Tius]

I'd check out the paizo forums, specifically this one. There are a couple sample builds posted there, though they aren't nearly as detailed as Saph's manual.

[Dragon Star]

Anyone know how the master summoner compares to the normal summoner power wise?

What are the pros and cons of each one compared with the other? Master summoners seem like they would eat up a lot of time in combat, what with all the extra actions, but are they still only tier 2 with that many summons per day?

[TheArsenal]

The thing is that its intended as a SOLO class, for smaller parties.

My Fluff for the Eidelon is that its a creature CREATED from the summoning energy itself rather then being an creature. Its an outsider because it channels the energy of the planes and stuff.

[Saph]

So what should I do?

Yeah, sorry. I've thought about adding sections for the Summoner variants, but it'd require more time than I have spare at the moment. It's not so much the writing as the research into the archetypes, and at the moment I'm pretty busy with my book due to come out.

[Cieyrin]

Anyone know how the master summoner compares to the normal summoner power wise?

What are the pros and cons of each one compared with the other? Master summoners seem like they would eat up a lot of time in combat, what with all the extra actions, but are they still only tier 2 with that many summons per day?

Master Summoner is pretty much the definition of minionmancy, since they get more summonings, can have a summoning and their Eidolon out or can just spam as many summons as they want. At 1st level, they're more powerful than standard, since the half-summoner level is rounded up to 1 plus better summons, but quickly lag behind soon thereafter, at least in terms of their Eidolon. The free Augment saves them a feat and gets them to Superior Summoning without a hitch, so they can have lots of powerful creatures out and about. The Eidolon is best served as a Skilldolon or potentially ranged support, either through archery or via the Magic evolutions to support her spellcasting.

I don't think the awesomeness with summoning outweighs the loss of the Eidolon's power to push it out of its tier. Maybe higher in its tier but still not enough to challenge Tier 1s. Managing all those summons can be time intensive, so if pursuing Master Summoner is your thing, make sure you have notes for your summons and bound outsiders ahead of time, as no one likes having to sit around waiting for you to find stats in the Bestiary.

[jaybird]

Speaking of Superior Summoning - does that apply to the Summoner's SLA?

[grarrrg]

Master Summoner .....The Eidolon is best served as a Skilldolon or potentially ranged support, either through archery or via the Magic evolutions to support her spellcasting.

The Eidolon would also make a solid Mount. Not quite as awesome as what a Paladin would get, but plenty better than a plain old horse.
And between Evolution Points and the Surge spells, it can gain many things a normal mount could not (Flight/Swim speeds for example).

[Cieyrin]

Speaking of Superior Summoning - does that apply to the Summoner's SLA?

As far as I'm aware, they do. I'm not all up and up on how spells vs. spell-likes by RAW but a reasonable DM should be fine with that, as it's one of the Summoner's main schticks.

The Eidolon would also make a solid Mount. Not quite as awesome as what a Paladin would get, but plenty better than a plain old horse.
And between Evolution Points and the Surge spells, it can gain many things a normal mount could not (Flight/Swim speeds for example).

Oh, true, true. I forgot about that part. Mounted Combat should keep the Eidolon out of trouble while you're at it, too, which is a bigger priority for Master Summoners to regular ones.

[holladiewaldfee]

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

for example
i have 4 maximum attacks. i choose the quadruped eidolon that has already bite. so i cant take 2 claw evolutions to have 3 claw attacks and 1 bite (or 4 claw attacks and 0 bite) ?


in bestiary rulebook it is said

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

does it also count for our pounce evolution? i mean the part with "including rake attacks"



the eidolon is generally allowed to wear magic items except armor.
do shields count as armor? what about bracers of armor?
does the eidolon need an arm(limb) evolution to wear a ring? think of nose-piercing; some rings that most bulls wear in their nose
the same for a snake that wants to wear boots

p.s. what is RAW ?

p.p.s. mounted combat is fine when you use invisibility. just avoid offensive spells

a lance charge does double damage. is only the weapon damage doubled or the whole damage?
example: 1d6 lance + 5 strength = 2d6+5 or 2d6+10 ?
does a lance get +150% strength modifier since it is normally a 2 handed weapon or only 100% since you wear it with 1 hand in a charge ?

[panaikhan]

Maximum attacks for an Eidolon are BASE attacks.
Sinse the Rake attacks for Eidolons are worded differently (and called 'additional' attacks) I would not (and do not, for my Synthesist) count them.

[holladiewaldfee]

Maximum attacks for an Eidolon are BASE attacks.
Sinse the Rake attacks for Eidolons are worded differently (and called 'additional' attacks) I would not (and do not, for my Synthesist) count them.

this was never the question but btw

rake: ...This evolution counts as one natural attack toward te eidolon's maximum...

[panaikhan]

Was Rake errata'd?
I don't have my books to hand, but I definately don't remember that line anywhere. If it's true, then I guess i'll give up a secondary attack for the 4 possible extras.

[holladiewaldfee]

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/a.../summoner.html

[panaikhan]

Yes, I realize that, if it has changed, then the online SRD will have the changed version.
However, changes in the online version will not be reflected in the hardback copy I own, and I am not in a position to regularly re-read every rule in the online version "just in case".

[holladiewaldfee]

everyone knows that the amulet of the mighty fist is a must have item for the eidolon but no one mentioned that you can empower it

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

enchant it like a melee weapon. prefer "flaming" and similar

how does enchanting work correctly?
i have a +1 amulet of mighty fists (cost 5000 gp)
enhance it with flaming since flaming is a +1 equivalent enchantment (+2000 gp +50% = 3000 gp)

i am right that you can ehance a +3 weapon with one +3 equivalent enchantment or 3 +1 ?
then you can get a amutet of might fists +3 with flaming, shock and frost


many attacks like flat bonus damage

[Cieyrin]

everyone knows that the amulet of the mighty fist is a must have item for the eidolon but no one mentioned that you can empower it

enchant it like a melee weapon. prefer "flaming" and similar

how does enchanting work correctly?
i have a +1 amulet of mighty fists (cost 5000 gp)
enhance it with flaming since flaming is a +1 equivalent enchantment (+2000 gp +50% = 3000 gp)

i am right that you can ehance a +3 weapon with one +3 equivalent enchantment or 3 +1 ?
then you can get a amutet of might fists +3 with flaming, shock and frost

many attacks like flat bonus damage

For your earlier question, RAW means Rules as Written, meaning how the rules work by their wording, not necessarily as intended by the creators.

As for the Amulet, the bonus by amulet is already worked out. If you have a +1 amulet and improve it +2 and put that new +1 to flaming, a +1 equivalent, then you pay the difference between a +1 amulet and a +2 amulet, 15k.

And yes, the Amulet doesn't require you to have a +1 bonus before applying special abilities, unlike magic weapons. It's not that great, honestly, as like 3.5 before it, the Amulet is overpriced because they, once again, have it in the wrong slot, so it costs 50% more than if it was in the glove slot, where it really should be. For eidolons with multiple attacks, it's alright, since you're basically paying to enhance all of them at a discount that gets better as you get more attacks.

[holladiewaldfee]

so a flaming +1 weapon costs as much as a +2 weapon?
and you can have a +0 weapon with 3 +1 enchantments that counts as a +3 weapon for its price?

[Cieyrin]

so a flaming +1 weapon costs as much as a +2 weapon?
and you can have a +0 weapon with 3 +1 enchantments that counts as a +3 weapon for its price?

Flaming is a +1 equivalent special ability, so yes, +1 flaming costs as much as +2, as they're both effectively +2.

For the Amulet's purposes, yes, you can have a +0 enhancement bonus with 3 +1 specials, which costs the same as a +3 enhancement bonus, a +2 with a +1 special, a +1 with a +2 special or +1 with 2 +1 specials. They all cost the same as far as the Amulet is concerned. For actual weapons, this all applies except that you must have a +1 enhancement bonus before applying special abilities.

[holladiewaldfee]

still unanswered questions:

Quote:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
for example
i have 4 maximum attacks. i choose the quadruped eidolon that has already bite. so i cant take 2 claw evolutions to have 3 claw attacks and 1 bite (or 4 claw attacks and 0 bite) ?


in bestiary rulebook it is said
Quote:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
does it also count for our pounce evolution? i mean the part with "including rake attacks"



the eidolon is generally allowed to wear magic items except armor.
do shields count as armor? what about bracers of armor?
does the eidolon need an arm(limb) evolution to wear a ring? think of nose-piercing; some rings that most bulls wear in their nose
the same for a snake that wants to wear boots

[grarrrg]

Quote:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
for example
i have 4 maximum attacks. i choose the quadruped eidolon that has already bite. so i cant take 2 claw evolutions to have 3 claw attacks and 1 bite (or 4 claw attacks and 0 bite) ?

Ask your DM which of the following he's using.
By a strict wording: you would only be able to take Claws once, giving you 3 attacks, out of a max of 4. You would not be able to take another Claw, as it would give you 2 more attacks.

By a more lenient interpretation (one that is necessary if using the Brood Master archetype): You can "have" as many natural attacks as you want, but you can only "use" X-many in a given round. So you could have Max Attacks = 4, but have 4 Claws and a Bite. Round 1 you could make all 4 Claw attacks, round 2 you could make 3 Claws and a Bite.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
does it also count for our pounce evolution? i mean the part with "including rake attacks"

Not sure on the exact question.
Max Attacks still applies regarding Pounce attacks.
?

do shields count as armor? what about bracers of armor?
does the eidolon need an arm(limb) evolution to wear a ring? think of nose-piercing; some rings that most bulls wear in their nose
the same for a snake that wants to wear boots

Generally Armor means "worn on the main body".
_IF_ you are allowed to wear armor on your Eidolon, it is generally assumed you do NOT also get Natural Armor bonus (or you get the better of the 2).

Shields are not "Armor", you can use one so long as you have an Arm to wield it.
Bracers are in the not-quite-shield, not-quite Armor category, I'd allow them if you have Arms.
Rings must be worn on a Finger (or similar digit), located on an Arm.
To wear boots you need Feet (i.e. Legs).

[Cieyrin]

still unanswered questions:

Quote:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
for example
i have 4 maximum attacks. i choose the quadruped eidolon that has already bite. so i cant take 2 claw evolutions to have 3 claw attacks and 1 bite (or 4 claw attacks and 0 bite) ?

Not sure what the question is but you're limited to the Natural Attack limit for natural attacks, doesn't matter what they are, as long as you don't exceed it. Manufactured weapons aren't natural, thus the Limit doesn't apply.

in bestiary rulebook it is said
Quote:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
does it also count for our pounce evolution? i mean the part with "including rake attacks"

As neither Pounce or Rake evolutions say anything about it, no, you don't get Rakes on a Pounce.

the eidolon is generally allowed to wear magic items except armor.
do shields count as armor? what about bracers of armor?
does the eidolon need an arm(limb) evolution to wear a ring? think of nose-piercing; some rings that most bulls wear in their nose
the same for a snake that wants to wear boots

That's something left up to your DM, as it's not indicated other than the Link limiting you to one set of slots, not one each for Summoner and Eidolon. General consensus is you typically need the required limb to be able to use an item that needs it to be worn but that's really a grey aThat's something left up to your DM, as it's not indicated other than the Link limiting you to one set of slots, not one each for Summoner and Eidolon. General consensus is you typically need the required limb to be able to use an item that needs it to be worn but that's really a grey area.