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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by l2ampage View Post
    It mentions in the OP that you want to be able to communicate with your summons to give them orders, but the creatures on the lower level summon lists don't have languages listed. Does this mean you can't communicate with them?
    You'd want to check the Bestiary for language information. It appears that the earliest Summon spell you can speak with are in Summon Monster II, when you get Small Elementals, which speak their relevant elemental language (Aquan, Auran, Ignan or Terran).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarious View Post
    So, something I've been mulling over. Your eidolon is an outsider that resides on another plane. Could you use Planar Binding/Planar Ally to call your Eidolon? Could someone else? Would your eidolon charge to help you or just do it for free?
    It's technically possible, though I'm not sure if it's intended or not. I don't think it could be bound while summoned by the Summoner, regardless. If it is possible to Bind it, I don't think it'd work for free any more than other outsiders would, which tends to make me lean towards that it shouldn't be able to be bound.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Then pay it with gear you would have given it anyways.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    It's technically possible, though I'm not sure if it's intended or not. I don't think it could be bound while summoned by the Summoner, regardless. If it is possible to Bind it, I don't think it'd work for free any more than other outsiders would, which tends to make me lean towards that it shouldn't be able to be bound.
    Well with planar binding all you have to do is win an opposed Cha check, which should be easy for a summoner in any case. Also you have a heck of a bargaining chip if it decides it doesn't want to. "You know I can always summon you the other way, you cant resist that at all. This is actually giving you MORE freedom then usual." Also, what if the summoner's enemy waits for the summoner to sleep then binds his eidolon. Summoner wakes up and tries to summon... and what happens? It is probably easier to say no it's special and that cant happen cause if it can it's all sorts of potential rules headaches.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarious View Post
    Well with planar binding all you have to do is win an opposed Cha check, which should be easy for a summoner in any case. Also you have a heck of a bargaining chip if it decides it doesn't want to. "You know I can always summon you the other way, you cant resist that at all. This is actually giving you MORE freedom then usual." Also, what if the summoner's enemy waits for the summoner to sleep then binds his eidolon. Summoner wakes up and tries to summon... and what happens? It is probably easier to say no it's special and that cant happen cause if it can it's all sorts of potential rules headaches.
    Yeah, that last part is the part I worry about most, as that way leads to player/DM arms races and interparty fighting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarious View Post
    Also, what if the summoner's enemy waits for the summoner to sleep then binds his eidolon. Summoner wakes up and tries to summon... and what happens? It is probably easier to say no it's special and that cant happen cause if it can it's all sorts of potential rules headaches.

    Given the weird nature of Eidolons, I'd say the GM is well within their rights to say that an Eidolon is capable of manifesting in more than one place at a time if summoned by two different people.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Given the weird nature of Eidolons, I'd say the GM is well within their rights to say that an Eidolon is capable of manifesting in more than one place at a time if summoned by two different people.
    If that was possible, wouldn't Summon Eidolon allow you to summon it while it was out? The spell explicitly says it fails if you already have it summoned normally.

    Also the fact that Eidolons are all unique, even if they have the same base and evolutions, which makes them not any more likely to be able to be in multiple places than any other Outsiders. Two people can summon a Large Fire Elemental but only one of them is Surcsur of the Ashes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Would it be very Overpowering to give your eidolon a VoP (3.5)?
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    As much as it would be for any monster with natural flight and natural weapon focus.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    If that was possible, wouldn't Summon Eidolon allow you to summon it while it was out? The spell explicitly says it fails if you already have it summoned normally.

    Also the fact that Eidolons are all unique, even if they have the same base and evolutions, which makes them not any more likely to be able to be in multiple places than any other Outsiders. Two people can summon a Large Fire Elemental but only one of them is Surcsur of the Ashes.
    I did say "if summoned by two different people". Like some god-like entities in some games can manifest in multiple places at once.

    My own crackpot idea on Eidolons is that when they get 'new' evolutions, it's not actually them _changing_, just them being able to manifest more aspects that they _already had_, as they can now 'unfold' further in the Prime Material.

    Just a thought.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurenthal View Post
    Would it be very Overpowering to give your eidolon a VoP (3.5)?
    VoP wasn't overpowering before, so I kinda doubt it.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    VoP is underpowered because

    1: No flight, senses, ect that are needed at higher levels. Eidolon get it via evolutions
    2: You only get 80% of your WBL in effects. Given an Eidolon has only 50% WBL, that's a net gain.


    Also, like a Wildshaped Druid (the one class that may actually benefit from VoP instead of suffer horribly), Eidolons have limited body slots to use.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-02-23 at 11:07 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    VoP wasn't overpowering before, so I kinda doubt it.
    Yeah, you are right. But it has a lot of stuff that will enhance the not-item-dependant classes, and the eidolon will surely do a fine job without items, and if you give it the VoP he will be great. And you won't have to deal with the shared-slots problem
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Also, like a Wildshaped Druid (the one class that may actually benefit from VoP instead of suffer horribly), Eidolons have limited body slots to use.
    Incarnum users tend to fair alright with VoP as well, since binding souls to your chakra doesn't make you less impoverished.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Has there been more support for the summoner since ultimate magic came out? I would like to see some more evolution options, and for some of the evolutions to be improved. Breath weapon especially seemed lack luster at the level you get it. I think I'd prefer a good old 1d4 round refresh period. Not spammable but always usable versus the current version which evolution surge fodder.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarious View Post
    Has there been more support for the summoner since ultimate magic came out? I would like to see some more evolution options, and for some of the evolutions to be improved. Breath weapon especially seemed lack luster at the level you get it. I think I'd prefer a good old 1d4 round refresh period. Not spammable but always usable versus the current version which evolution surge fodder.
    I think Inner Sea Magic gave an additional archetype and possibly other stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurenthal View Post
    Yeah, you are right. But it has a lot of stuff that will enhance the not-item-dependant classes, and the eidolon will surely do a fine job without items, and if you give it the VoP he will be great. And you won't have to deal with the shared-slots problem
    Eh, at early levels VoP's armor bonus stacking with the eidolon's natural armor will make it untouchable. Around 5th-6th level weapon-using Eidolons (reach evolution+reach weapon makes Pathfinder Fighters cry) have to keep themselves up to date like any melee class, though, and it only gets worse.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hey!

    First of all, thanks for the incredibly useful guide! I recently started a Summoner in a high-level campaign, and this thread was really helpful.

    I only have a couple of points to remark: maybe they're so obvious that they have not been posted, or maybe I just didn't see them (I tried to read every post; but I might have missed some parts). So, here they are:

    a) Lillends. It is stated that they are good for their SLA and cures, but their out-of-combat potential cure potential is just AWESOME. During combat, they will probably cure an ally a couple of times with cure serious wounds (3d8+7), which is not bad, but starts to suck quickly: out-of-combat, however, they can also convert all their 1st and 2nd spell slots to cure light wounds (1d8+5 each). This means 9d8+45 damages healed, 15d8+59 if we take into account the two cure serious wounds. So, a single Lillend can, in 11 rounds (1 minute and 6 seconds) cure an average of 126 damage. And that is a single use of the Summon Monster class feature at level 11th. Obviously, an 11th-level Cleric is way more effective, but if you don't have a Cleric in the party, this could be a good alternative.

    b) Once you can cast evolution surge, you can completely heal your Eidolon out-of-combat by giving him the Fast Healing 4pt evolution trait. So, at a certain level, you can probably stop buying cure/restore wands (since they are not that good in combat, either). If he dies, you can summon eidolon him back, and then evolution surge him to max hit points. It costs some slots, but it might be useful if you ever need to summon eidolon him back again. Or, you could simply evolution surge him to full hp the next day.

    c) It's true that the Summoner's spell slots are few: but, depending on your campaign, you might want to stack on Lesser Rods of Extend Metamagic and cast extended greater magic fang on your Eidolon, instead of buying him an Amulet of Mighty Fists. With greater magic fang you have the option of making all Eidolon's attacks magic at +1, and it lasts hours/level.

    I will conclude with a couple of questions:

    1) Is there any good way to make your Eidolon perceive invisible creatures? You could greater evolution surge him in Undead Form + Lifesense, but it works in a very limited range, and that is true for a lot of other possibilities. true seeing is ok, but also very expensive (250 GP/casting).

    2) Is there a good guide for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation? Shadow Demons are an incredibly useful summon, but the range of possible spells they can cast is huge! I am browsing through them all, but sometimes it is not clear if the shadow version of a certain spell will have a reasonable chance to work as the original, or if it is simply worthless. A guide would be a big help: I tried to search for it, but I still found nothing useful.

    Thanks again to all contributors of this wonderful thread :-)

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I think Inner Sea Magic gave an additional archetype and possibly other stuff.
    Looking into it, it did add Infernal Healing as a level 1 Summoner spell. I think I'll take this instead of Rejuvenate Eidolon.

    Just to be sure, this heals for 1 HP per round, for 1 minute, resulting in +10HP?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by l2ampage View Post
    Looking into it, it did add Infernal Healing as a level 1 Summoner spell. I think I'll take this instead of Rejuvenate Eidolon.

    Just to be sure, this heals for 1 HP per round, for 1 minute, resulting in +10HP?
    Yes, which is typically better for out of combat healing, since you're guaranteed 10 hp, as opposed to Cure Light Wounds, which starts out strictly worse and at max is still on average worse, and Rejuvenate Eidolon, which only at the top averages out better at cap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Is there any good way to make your Eidolon perceive invisible creatures? You could greater evolution surge him in Undead Form + Lifesense, but it works in a very limited range, and that is true for a lot of other possibilities. true seeing is ok, but also very expensive (250 GP/casting).
    Depends on your definition of good. At second level spells you have glitterdust which rocks but you kinda need to know generally where your target is so you can put the burst in the right spot.

    Another option is to UMD a see invis. wand and share it to your Eidolon. See invis. can be made permanent by a wiz. also if you have the moola so you can cast it from a scoll then have it made permanent and never worry about it again if you want to do it that way as well.

    2) Is there a good guide for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation? Shadow Demons are an incredibly useful summon, but the range of possible spells they can cast is huge! I am browsing through them all, but sometimes it is not clear if the shadow version of a certain spell will have a reasonable chance to work as the original, or if it is simply worthless. A guide would be a big help: I tried to search for it, but I still found nothing useful.
    Here's your guide. Shadow spells are a type of illusion with a kicker. Like Illusions they work just like what the seem like if you believe them. The major difference between "shadow" spells and illusions is that if you disbelieve a "shadow" illusion it still "works" but only at 20% capacity.
    Example: you roll shadow 10d6 fireball that does 35 hp damage.
    critter one: fails shadow save and believes fireball then takes 35 dmg reflex for half.
    critter two: makes his shadow save so he disbelieves the fireball but unlike an illusion he now takes 7 damage (20% of 35) with a save for half. Not much but at least it wasn't negated completely.

    Higher level shadow spells have more "real" composition to them so that the disbelief debuff lessens but since we are talking about shadow daemons I used the spells they can cast.

    The real trick here is that since they are at least partially real they can do thing that an illusion can't. A shadow conjuration phantom steed can still carry a person quite well where a DM might disallow a pure illusion version to do the same thing since after all there is literally nothing there to sit on.

    Lastly creatures "summoned" by shadow conjuration only have 20% of their hp weather or not the illusion is disbelieved. This is an exception to the rule that if they believe it works as normal rule.

    Hope this little shadow primer helped. For more information you might try to find the old 3.5 Gnome "shadow" illusionist guidebook. It went over a very popular and powerful gnome build that took advantage of a gnomish trait that allowed them to boost their shadow spells an additional 20% to at the highest levels of op they would be able to cast shadow spells that where 130% real so they had greater affect if disbelieved.... Yeah I prefer pathfinder at least they try to keep things under control.
    Last edited by Grasharm; 2012-02-26 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    These are my thoughts on various points of the handbook. Warning: I have not read through all or even most of the previous 16 pages of posts so everything is going in a "spoiler" box so that it's easier to ignore since I will probably be going back over at least some tilled ground.

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    In the roles section you list melee combat (You) as awful. You have two advantages in Melee combat that I think your overlooking. 1) shield ally means I can't gain much more benefit from an actual shield freeing up your off hand for extra combat punch either through duel wielding or more likely using a spear two handed or other weapon you choose to become proficient in. 2) while you can only wear light armor you have easy access to the best spell in the game to increase armor class - Barkskin. As an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor it STACKS! with almost every other existing armor bonus except other enhancement type bonuses to natural armor so pretty much only the amulet of natural armor magic item.

    Under abilities you list STR as the primary dump stat when you admit that Wis affects just your will save which is your best save so can take the hit better making it the superior dump stat. in my opinion. After all the will save can be fixed with a feat (iron will) and you will be making the odd melee attack your entire adventuring your career between AOOs and just in your face monsters that you can't shake. (that Otyugh that ambushed you in the swamp dares you to try to step away. It's more than happy to aoo you to death with it's 10' reach and Auto grab attempt to keep you next to him even if he drops you once hes stopped your movement so you constantly provoke unless you pull that spear off your back)

    Under core meta-magic feats I feel any spontaneous caster can greatly benifit from Heighten spell. At some point you are going to use a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell so you might as well get the most bang for your buck. Also it's unclear if the summoner can burn higher level spell slots for lower level spells without this feat. With it just heighten it to the higher level slot and since it's not a set +level adjustment to the spell you can choose the spell slots you use on the fly.

    Now under fang vs blade you ignore what I consider a big point in favor of "blade" and that is recycling. You are probably not going to be the "main" fighter character. When as you progress up levels your "main" fighter abandons his current weapon of choice lets say +2 flaming sword for the +2 icy burst sword your eidolon can now inherit the previous sword unless your fighter is using some exotic weapon type like spiked chains. This advantage may require the 4pt evolution though if your DMs are like the ones I'm used to they do not keep giving the same type of sword over and over again unless there is some pressing reason the fighter won't use any other type of sword. If he does wait till you know what type of weapon your fighter is using and will keep getting and take the appropriate feat.

    Eidolon Feats- you missed a feat tree and my pick for first thing to give your eidolon over even power attack for it's final
    Combat Reflexes- prerequisite feat and with your ever increasing dex is not a completely wasted feat esp since your eidolon is going to be in melee 90% of the time almost irregardless of the build.
    Bodyguard - congrats you can now convert those extra aoos into armor bonus for your allies. Again a good ability and even better than combat reflexs but still we are really taking it as a prereq. for ....
    In Harms Way - have the guy that will be back tomorrow with a hangover take the critical hit damage that is so high that even the barbarian that it is about to hit will be one shotted. Yup, sounds like a good plan to me. Time to start using that summon monster ability for the rest of the combat.

    Eidolon Packages- with ultimate magic out there is a new "package" to be considered
    Spell converter:
    Base form: any
    evolutions: basic magic, minor magic, major magic, ability increase chr if necessary
    Feats: no specific recommendations though given that you are going to be close to your eidolon the above bodyguard tree is a good choice.
    special: your eidolons ability advance should go to chr

    The idea is that you give your eidolon one of each magic evolution to meet the perquisites for all available "magic" evolutions so you don't need the highest version of magic evolution. Then you cast appropriate evolution surge and take a magic evolution effectively converting your surge into the spell the evolution grants and have your eidolon fire it off. With higher levels of surge you may even get three castings of the spell to surge used.
    This should be used as an add-on to another eidolon not a stand alone build as at higher levels you can probably get better use out of summoning a caster type monster than converting surges.

    Well those are just some of my thoughts other than this last one. The main post really needs to be updated to include Ultimate Magic.
    Last edited by Grasharm; 2012-02-26 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasharm View Post
    Depends on your definition of good. At second level spells you have glitterdust which rocks but you kinda need to know generally where your target is so you can put the burst in the right spot.
    Technically, Glitterdust doesn't remove invisibility, it just gives them a -40 to Stealth, which exactly counters the bonus to Stealth that you get from Invisibility when not moving, so while you have a good chance of finding the target, you still have to deal with the miss chance and everything else but that's still an improvement over bumbling around trying to find your target, especially since they're probably blind but even if they're not, they don't get to save against getting dusted.

    Also, Tremorsense, Blindsense and Blindsight are all available Evolutions, so Surging them on your Eidolon should handle that fine, though you'll have to Surge twice to get Blindsight, since you need Blindsense first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

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    Originally Posted by Grasharm View Post
    Depends on your definition of good. At second level spells you have glitterdust which rocks but you kinda need to know generally where your target is so you can put the burst in the right spot.
    Technically, Glitterdust doesn't remove invisibility, it just gives them a -40 to Stealth, which exactly counters the bonus to Stealth that you get from Invisibility when not moving, so while you have a good chance of finding the target, you still have to deal with the miss chance and everything else but that's still an improvement over bumbling around trying to find your target, especially since they're probably blind but even if they're not, they don't get to save against getting dusted.

    Also, Tremorsense, Blindsense and Blindsight are all available Evolutions, so Surging them on your Eidolon should handle that fine, though you'll have to Surge twice to get Blindsight, since you need Blindsense first.

    visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. Copy and paste direct from pathfinder PRD
    So it does make them visible as you can literally see their outline. The -40 is so if they try to use normal versions of concealment like just a really awesome stealth skill you know they have to be epic to remain hidden with that debuff.
    Last edited by Grasharm; 2012-02-27 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Because I don't think any PF exclusive guides have done it to my knowedge, what are good weapon properties without 3.5 material? Wounding was great for core only, but is now terrible.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Because I don't think any PF exclusive guides have done it to my knowledge, what are good weapon properties without 3.5 material? Wounding was great for core only, but is now terrible.
    I'm not sure why your asking this here. There are several things wrong with this. 1) There is no one property that is just an all around great property to have on a weapon aside from a basic +1-5. Every other property is going to depend on your character as to weather or not it's a great property. 2) If this just isn't the place to ask a general question like that. You should have started a new thread.

    Harboring the hope that you just where being unclear as to what you where asking and why you put it here I am going to answer your question as it pertains to this thread: What are good weapon properties to get on the weapons for my summoner and the weapons I give my Eidolon without using 3.5 material.

    New color:
    Lime Green- Ambiguous and how good it is probably depend a lot on DM interpretation.


    Summoner:
    Core:
    Spoiler
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    Bane- better for a back up weapons that you pull out when this bane ability is relevant. I'd skip it most times but keep a weapon with this ability that I picked up as loot.
    Brilliant Energy- good ability for summoners. These weapons pretty much make hitting anything that isn't immune to them a given but keep a back up for the things that are immune to brilliant energy weapons.
    Dancing- This one is gonna be GM specific. Its not clearly worded so it's hard to tell. Does it get ititervie attacks? can it apply to thrown and ranged weapons so that they keep firing and throwing themselves without you? I dunno so lets skip it for now.
    Defending-Great property for summoners. Since shield ally is a shield bonus you can't really benefit from shields but put this baby in your off hand and go to town transferring it's bonus to defense.
    Disruption-if you find one keep it but it's so niche unless your in an undead heavy adventure you should skip it.
    Distance- Great for thrown weapons and useful for other ranged weapons and so a good summoner property since most summoners are not going to want to mix it up in close combat anyway.
    Ghost Touch-A situational property. How good this is is going to depend on your gm and what kind of adventures your in. Facing a lot of incorporeal critters this is great never see one from 1-20 and it's a waste.
    Holy/unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchistic- These are the alignment properties and thus are situational and thus the same as above
    Keen-more crit threat range is good for anyone. Gets a B in this class.
    Ki Focus-great for all those summoners with Ki which should be none.
    Merciful-unless you have character story reason for not wanting to kill every little thing and take it's stuff like most adventurers this is the ugly cousin of the energy damage weapons and like the afore mentioned cousin you really don't want to take it to the dance unless you absolutely have to or have no better options and at least your showing up with something.
    Mighty Cleaving- well I'll say it anyway if your using cleave it's excellent but if not it's obviously a waste.
    Returning-I love spears for summoners. Unlike crossbows they do not require actions to reload, have good damage, x3 crit. modifier is a good trade off for crit range. Especially since you don't have out of the box access to a 18-20 threat range weapon and can even benifit from a higher strength mod if you happen to have one. Why go on about my spear love? because when you have your +3 icy burst spear adding returning to it means you can now throw it every round and still have it when that melee monster gets in your face to stave him off.
    Shock/firey/icy/ect.- +damage of the appropriate type on every hit is almost as universally good as a +1-5. Go for it.
    (keyword) Burst- The burst line of weapon properties work great for your summoner. A little extra damage and if your using a spear or longspear the x3 crit gives you a more powerful burst than most. And if you act now we will throw in extra energy damage on every hit for free even without critting just like the above property. Just under Spell Storing on core weapon properties that are summonerrific.
    Speed-Doesn't stack with haste which does more and you get as a second level spell. Do I even have to say skip it.
    Spell Storing- The best property a summoner can get on a wapon hands down! You have access to some of the best debuffs around and with your limited spells per day being able to use an unused spell from the day before and carry it over into the future is a great ability. That's one less spell used on the day it mattered.
    Thundering- big boom on crit that is enhanced further if the weapon has a high crit muliplier like say your spear. one of the best weapon properties available for your summoner
    Throwing-This works best with hurling barbarians and to a lesser extent other martial classes that can get it on big damage weapons for a hard hitting ranged attack that uses your str. for damage bonus since it's thrown. For your summoner if your going to throw a melee weapon that your proficient in the spear comes ready for use out of the box and has twice the range increment.
    Vicious- Save your hp to soak up your own and your Eidolons damage.
    Vorpal- a decent ability adds the threat of death and it's unlikely that your going to be using a weapon with a large crit threat range so every making every crit count is good
    Wounding-not a good choice better for characters with lots of attacks like monks and rangers


    APG
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    Allying-Wow I need a paragraph just for this ability. Suffice it to say if used properly rocks you natural freeborn world but if you don't have the set up it sucks just as bad as it could rock. Since it is out of the box suck that's what I went with.
    Conductive- I you have the proper feats to give you such an attack may be worth it.
    Corrosive- Same as core but with acid type
    Corrosive Burst- same as core but with Acid.
    Cunning- spending a 5 of your precious skill points into multiple skills to get a +2 on crit. confirmation?!? Save this one for the wizard to confirm his spell crits and move on.
    Dueling- More for the point man rouge scouting ahead with his weapon out and stealth than your summoner but still +init. is worth it.
    Furious- Unlike the other properties you can make use of this one. Rage is a second level spell. Still is black because rage is better cast on someone else where you can extend it a few round with concentration.
    Grayflame- having channel uses to power this ability is only slightly more likely than having Ki uses.
    Huntsman- the tracking to the professionals. There are easier ways to get +1d6 damage.
    Jurist- well it's better than Ki Focus from the core book since there are actually some rather good reasons to take a single level dip into Inquisitor but this is not enough to save if from an awful rating.
    Menacing- not a good quality unless your going with one of the many melee builds for summoner. But since summoner is still primarily a caster I have to say find something better most times.
    Transformative-Good basic ability. Not great for summoners but not horrible either it's main strength is in crafting/buying weapons since it cost a flat 10k instead of a +X.


    Eidolon
    **check with your GM to see if you can even put properties on an amulet of mighty fists to give your Eidolon's natural attacks these properties if not and your not going to be using manufactured weapons just consider this entire section purple
    Core:
    Spoiler
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    Brilliant Energy- Great ability just watch out for the creatures that have immunity to this type of weapon. Be sure it's on something that can be dropped easily just in case.
    Dancing- Has to be on a manufactured weapons but if your Eidolon uses weapons at all this is a great ability. Have him loose it then go to town with your natural attacks. no muss no fuss.
    Defending- Generally your not going to want to use this ability. After all your not as concerned about Eidolon death since they can be re-summoned tomorrow and it opens you to use your second line ability to summon.
    Frost/fiery/icy/ect- If your DM let's you a way to get a second type of energy damage on top of what your energy attack evolution gives.
    (energy keyword) Burst- Works good for me.
    Keen- increased threat range. works for me.
    Ki Focus- Until they give Eidolon's an evolution to get a Ki Pool let alone use it this is worthless to your eidolon. Like a <insert what you like here> is to a <insert an item that is useless to what you put in earlier>.
    Merciful- as I said above for the summoners section on this ability, "unless you have character story reason for not wanting to kill every little thing and take it's stuff like most adventurers this is the ugly cousin of the energy damage weapons and like the afore mentioned cousin you really don't want to take it to the dance unless you absolutely have to or have no better options and at least your showing up with something."
    Mighty Cleaving- There is a decent chance of you Eidolon having cleave but not a give so that drops it notch
    Seeking- If your Eidolon needs a ranged attack dismiss him and summon something with a natural ranged attack or evolution surge him a few spells using the magic series of evolutions.
    Returning- see above
    Shock/fiery/icy- If your using a manufactured weapon always good but otherwise just take the evolution.
    Shocking Burst-In general a great ability but if you want to be doing energy damage your better off taking the energy damage evolution and using natural attacks. The enhancement to crits bumps it up a notch
    Speed-useful as a safety net for when your summoner does not want to or can't cast haste so you still get that extra attack on a full attack.
    Spell Storing- Have your summoner cast a debuff into your weapon between combats/ during downtime and that is one less action that he has to do something else while the Eidolon takes care of delivering the saved debuff.
    Thundering- Actually since it's cheaper and doesn't do the same thing as a evolution it works. Grab it if your can.
    Throwing/Distance-Same as seeking
    Unholy/Holy/Axiomatic/Anarchistic/Ghost touch/disrupting/Bane - How useful these abilities will be is determined by how many of the appropriate monster you face.
    [COLOR="Cyan"]Vicious[/COLOR]- Would be excellent but sine your Eidolon does not heal naturally this ability is going to drain your magic healing him but otherwise you can go to town and if he carves out too much of his hp well that's a bunch less hp you have to heal when you summon him back tomorrow.
    Vorpal- With all your attacks this is going to come up more often.
    Wounding- Your Eidolon is all about multiple attacks and stacking bleed is deadly.



    APG:
    Spoiler
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    Allying- to quote my earlier comment on this ability: Wow I need a paragraph just for this ability. Suffice it to say if used properly rocks you natural freeborn world but if you don't have the set up it sucks just as bad as it could rock. Since it is out of the box suck that's what I went with.
    Conductive- Currently it's not so great but if they add a few more abilities it can be used besides an enhanced major magic it could be all right later. As it is your eidolon is better off spending 5 evolution points on another attack.
    Corrosive- Same as Core ability but with acid.
    Corrosive Burst- Same as Core ability but with acid.
    [B]Cunning[/B]- What the hell are you doing giving your eidolon a bunch of knowledge skills for. Have him put down that damn book and go hit something.
    Dueling- Since most Eidolons use natural weapons they are out constantly so a static buff
    Furious- So when I tag my Eidolon with rage it not only gets a great buff but and additional +2 to it's weapons!
    Grayflame- Since currently Eidolons with channel are impossible as far as I know a horrible power for your Eidolon.
    Huntsman - If your party doesn't have a PC tracker chances are you threw an evolution into survival just to ... well survive and your Eidolon is now the defacto tracker.
    Jurist- If you somehow got your Eidolon the judgment ability please tell me how.
    Menacing-One of an Eidolon's major combat roles is providing flanking and even if he isn't the one providing the flank his large size at later levels means he's going to provide a large area in which the ability casts it's shadow even if he isn't always the one flanking.
    Transformative- Good basic ability that can be added with gold instead of a +X expenditure makes this a good choice at higher levels when 10k gold for and extra property seems like pennies.



    Yar! I'm done except for grammar and spelling edit!
    Last edited by Grasharm; 2012-02-28 at 03:52 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #476
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Thanks, that's what I was asking for.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasharm View Post
    So it does make them visible as you can literally see their outline. The -40 is so if they try to use normal versions of concealment like just a really awesome stealth skill you know they have to be epic to remain hidden with that debuff.
    That's the fluff, the -40 to Stealth is the mechanical effect. Just because they're outlined doesn't mean you know where to hit it. You still have to pinpoint it, but the -40 makes it stupidly easy, especially if they're currently fighting. Consider Faerie Fire, it specifically calls out that it negates concealment, along side having a penalty to Stealth.
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    Gnome Gun Mage avatar by NEO|Phyte
    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Damn you Cieyrin! Cieyrin!!!!!read as Khaaaaan!

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  28. - Top - End - #478
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Of course, it's copied from 3.5 and WotC has horrible editing.

    Oh, given this is a 3.P handbook, Eternal Wands are worth a note as a Summoner casts Arcane spells.

  29. - Top - End - #479
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    You are correct Cieyrin. Sorry I thought glitterdust worked more like mass farie fire than tremorsense.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Back in the 3.5 savage species I saw the hierarchy of templates saying that outsider overrides construct thus creatures like the Marut are outsiders. Now it would seem like the craft construct feat could still allow you to put upgrades on them sense they still have machine parts. If so could the same be done to an eidolon with a robotic appearance. If half elves get the 1/4 bonus to form points when summoner is there favored class then can they make summoner there favored class multiple times, and also the feat multitalented gives you an extra favored class for even more form points. This all involves bending the rules slightly or interpreting them differently, but a DM let me test it out once I was a synthesist that summoned a fighter jet around himself so he was in the cockpit. After paying my DM and I fixed some problems we had which you can judge for yourself as well as judging the entire concept of having a super eidolon.

    1. You are able to increase a constructs HD does this let me effectively increase the level my own level for eidolon purposes until my eidolon has the HD?
    No this does not let you meet level requirements or increase form points just everything else.

    2. What about all the stacking stuff?
    If something related to the craft construct feat says it stacks with the abilities of the original construct it will also stack with the eidolon.

    Ya so if I found some new powerful build well thats cool. If you think this is all a load of garbage and I am blatantly disregarding a rule I am cool with that as well, but tell me because I was just power gaming and it was my DM that double checked the legality.

    EDIT: Sorry the feat that gives you an additional favored class is called Eclectic not multitalented the prerequisite is human, but as a half elf you can still take it.

    EDIT: Oh and here are some links eclectic, craft-construct, more about constructs, and even more about constructs
    Last edited by Dr.Orpheus; 2012-02-28 at 02:01 PM.
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