[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[Cieyrin]

I don't believe the Marut or any of the other inevitables are constructs, they're beings that appear mechanical but are purely representatives of law and order in the multiverse. They don't have any of the construct characteristics, either, drawing exclusively from the Outsider type. If you want an extraplanar constructs, turn to the Maugs, who do build upon themselves and enhance their capabilities with attachments.

As for stacking favored class bonuses, I don't think that works, given Half-Elf's Multitalented's wording of 'either class'. Eclectic is somewhat less clear on that front, though I'd think it functions in a similar fashion.

[Grasharm]

Setting aside the whole is your whole weather or not a Marut is a construct your Eidolon isn't a construct it is a regular summoned monster that you can customize. The way to tell this is that you eidolon has a con score and does not have the living construct trait ergo it is not a construct so that whole bit is gone.

If you show me where it says a eidolon is a construct then I'll reconsider.

[Dr.Orpheus]

I don't believe the Marut or any of the other inevitables are constructs, they're beings that appear mechanical but are purely representatives of law and order in the multiverse. They don't have any of the construct characteristics, either, drawing exclusively from the Outsider type. If you want an extraplanar constructs, turn to the Maugs, who do build upon themselves and enhance their capabilities with attachments.

As for stacking favored class bonuses, I don't think that works, given Half-Elf's Multitalented's wording of 'either class'. Eclectic is somewhat less clear on that front, though I'd think it functions in a similar fashion.

Yes the maugs are probably a better example, and the half elf's Multitalented ability seems to prefer you multiclassed instead of choosing the same class twice.

Setting aside the whole is your whole weather or not a Marut is a construct your Eidolon isn't a construct it is a regular summoned monster that you can customize. The way to tell this is that you eidolon has a con score and does not have the living construct trait ergo it is not a construct so that whole bit is gone.

If you show me where it says a eidolon is a construct then I'll reconsider.

Sadly even when you make them appear as a robot or tank they are not constructs in the strict sense and even though they have evolutions that make them like undead there are no similar things for constructs. If you look at it though the carrion golem is a construct similar to an undead meaning that you could stitch more body parts on, but that is another stretch of the rules based on the eidolons physical form. I do have one other option and this method has a bit stronger footing. So because this is pathfinder there is no hierarchy of templates so you could add a template to make your eidolon a construct. This would have all the normal rules for templates so in order to have a template on a eidolon with 1 HD the CR adjustment of the template must be 0 or less like clockwork automaton or clockwork construct. Now sense the eidolon is not immune to lycanthropy or vampireisum thus it is capable of having a template yet templates involving constructs must be applied during character creation or maybe by some mad scientist and the magic jar spell, but the eidolon may have been born as or turned into a construct on its home plane long before the summoner was born because all eidolons have a home plane as described in the APG.

[Cieyrin]

Sadly even when you make them appear as a robot or tank they are not constructs in the strict sense and even though they have evolutions that make them like undead there are none similar things for constructs. If you look at it though the carrion golem is a construct similar to an undead meaning that you could stitch more body parts on, but that is another stretch of the rules based on the eidolons physical form. I do have one other option, reading savage species is where I had this idea but because this is pathfinder there is no hierarchy of templates so you could add a template to make your eidolon a construct. This would have all the normal rules for templates so in order to have a template on a eidolon with 1 HD the CR adjustment of the template must be 0 or less like clockwork automaton or clockwork construct. Now sense the eidolon is not immune to lycanthropy or vampireisum thus it is capable of having a template yet templates involving constructs must be applied during character creation or maybe by some mad scientist and the magic jar spell, but the eidolon may have been born as or turned into a construct on its home plane long before the summoner was born.

If you really want to do that, your best bet is to make a new Archetype to change the Eidolon to an extraplanar Construct, like how the First Worlder archetype makes the Eidolon a Fey. Lycanthropy and Vampirism generally only effect humanoids, which Eidolons aren't, so it's kind of a moot point there.

Alternatively, Evolutionist can fluff changing parts on an construct-like Eidolon to give it different properties, if that's something you'd be amenable to.

[Dr.Orpheus]

If you really want to do that, your best bet is to make a new Archetype to change the Eidolon to an extraplanar Construct, like how the First Worlder archetype makes the Eidolon a Fey. Lycanthropy and Vampirism generally only effect humanoids, which Eidolons aren't, so it's kind of a moot point there.

Alternatively, Evolutionist can fluff changing parts on an construct-like Eidolon to give it different properties, if that's something you'd be amenable to.

But the point I am posting here and not in the homebrew forum is because I may have found a way to do that without making a new archetype. Lycanthropy and vampirism do generally effect humanoids, but not always. In lords of madness had mind flayer vampires and in fiend folio there was a devil with lycanthropy. Even if the eidolon is immune to such things that does not mean they are immune to templates in general. I like the evolutionist fluff because I do enjoy roleplay as well as powergaming, but it does not result in an eidolon that grows stronger with levels as well as with the money spent on upgrades.

[Grasharm]

Okay I'm listening. How are you planning on applying the template? What ability or spell let's you apply a template to your Eidolon?

Also as for your taking summoner as a favored class multiple time you may be looking at a problem with the fact that a bonus from the same source does not stack. So when you apply your favored class bonus as you level from having summoner as a favored class I as a GM would say it gives you the same +1 several times and you take the highest +1 value. Not 100% that this is how this would work still looking for the relevant parts in the rules to confirm my interpretation. You can still get some good play out of this since you could get the +1 hp, +1 skill and the +1/4 evolution point. Though truthfully irl as a GM I would just say no you need to take different classes and just lay my GM stick on the table if you tried to do this in one of my games

[Dr.Orpheus]

Okay I'm listening. How are you planning on applying the template? What ability or spell let's you apply a template to your Eidolon?

Also as for your taking summoner as a favored class multiple time you may be looking at a problem with the fact that a bonus from the same source does not stack. So when you apply your favored class bonus as you level from having summoner as a favored class I as a GM would say it gives you the same +1 several times and you take the highest +1 value. Not 100% that this is how this would work still looking for the relevant parts in the rules to confirm my interpretation. You can still get some good play out of this since you could get the +1 hp, +1 skill and the +1/4 evolution point. Though truthfully irl as a GM I would just say no you need to take different classes and just lay my GM stick on the table if you tried to do this in one of my games

The reason an eidolon can have a template is because there is a really small chance that the eidolon was born with it. In almost all d20 games you are allowed to be a race even when that race is very rare for example even if there are 1000 times as many humans as vampire dwarves in your world that does not restrict you from being one so long as your DM allows a creature with with 2 CR adjustment, it is not like you have to roll to see what race you are born as. Another example is the familiar most DM's wont mind a wizard having an mephit at mid levels if they take the improved familiar feat there are not as many fire mephits living on the material plane as shews. The difference in CR between them is considerably worth using one feat, but what I am doing is instead of adding 2 CR for one feat I am adding a 0 CR template for no feats so. this also reminds me of the passage for legendary animals in Masters of the Wild it says that legendary creature are spontaneously generated whenever a high level druid or ranger is looking for a new companion making it possible for some templates to apply themselves to creatures for no logical reason. So it may unlikely that the eidolon (or any other creature able to become a companion of yours via a class ability) will have a template but as long as 0 CR template nothing is improbable. On another hand I guess the favored class thing did not work and yes if you were my DM you could ban it but just like Planer Shepherds, Pun pun, or Divine Metamagic I just want to know if it works not if I will get slapped when I show it to a DM.

Edit: Also most DM's I know will allow cohorts from the leadership feat have any number of templates as long as it remains the proper level. Especially when the campaign starts at mid level where the player could have met his cohort way before the game started

[Cieyrin]

Given eidolons don't breed (at least, there isn't anything that says such), I'm thinking it's not likely that they'll pick up an inherited template.

[Dr.Orpheus]

Given eidolons don't breed (at least, there isn't anything that says such), I'm thinking it's not likely that they'll pick up an inherited template.

Yes they probably don't breed, but clockwork templates are not inherited so one eidolon can build a clockwork body and use magic jar to put an eidolon soul inside while it is back on its home plane, and then some 1st level summoner may get the clockwork eidolon.

[Cieyrin]

Yes but clockwork templates are not inherited so one eidolon can build a clockwork body and use magic jar to put an eidolon soul inside while it is back on its home plane, and then some 1st level summoner may get the clockwork eidolon.

Outsiders don't have souls, they're a single unit.

[Dr.Orpheus]

Outsiders don't have souls, they're a single unit.

Well in that case an eidolon could be polymophed into a construct because polymorphing does not effect the soul or the eidolon could just surgically apply clockwork parts until they are entirely clockwork.

[Grasharm]

Okay I'm posting this last one and calling it. Your shoehorning. By this I mean your trying to justify your choice in any way possible. The answer I give you is no it does not work.

In order to polymorph into a construct you would need to use polymorph any object; the text of which can be found here.http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/s...rph-any-object. As you can see your polymorph works for 3 hours then you Eidolon reverts and any changes you made to his previous construct form at best fall off at worst cause massive damage as the suddenly incompatible parts driven into the very core of your eidolon fuse and tear at it's physical being. As for surgically turning your eidolon into a construct that would be a home-brew thing and not part of this discussion. I am willing to be corrected if you show me where in the rules there is a section on surgically turning creatures into constructs.

Also as far as the magic jar thing goes I could go either way on that one. Weather or not outsiders have souls or are nothing but soul isn't the issue for me but the killer for me is that when you or in this cast your eidolon transfers out of the jar it is to a living creature you detect withing range of the jar spell. Constructs are not living thus you cannot detect their body while in the jar to transfer to them. The only exception would be things with the living construct trait but then you have to deal with all the living construct rules one of which is you cannot modify you HD through mechanics only through leveling not to mention once again your up against a duration.

[sol_kanar]

Ok, I am having some doubts on dimension door in combination with the Eidolon.

Dimension door is listed as having:

Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

Full description:

Spoiler

Show

Dimension Door
School conjuration (teleportation); Level bard 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3, witch 4; Domain travel 4; Bloodline arcane 4

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V

EFFECT
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none and Will negates (object); Spell Resistance no and yes (object)


DESCRIPTION
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired - whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

FAQ
Dimension door says, "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." If the caster brings other creatures with them when they cast the spell, are the passengers unable to take any other actions until their next turn, or is that just for the caster?

That restriction only applies to the caster.

But the Share Spells ability of the Eidolon says:

Share Spells (Ex)
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Ok, so here come the questions:

a) If I want to cast dimension door on the Eidolon, do I need to touch it? Or can I go with the listed Range (Long)?

b) After being dimension doored, can the Eidolon still do something? Or is he affected by the spell as I would have been affected? A FAQ states:

FAQ
Dimension door says, "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." If the caster brings other creatures with them when they cast the spell, are the passengers unable to take any other actions until their next turn, or is that just for the caster?

That restriction only applies to the caster.

The Eidolon is not the caster, but I am applying the spell on him instead of me, so...uh...I am confused :-)

[Dr.Orpheus]

Okay I'm posting this last one and calling it. Your shoehorning. By this I mean your trying to justify your choice in any way possible. The answer I give you is no it does not work.

Ya I guess I had not thought about this enough to properly defend my points. I had trusted the DM that told me he found out how they are legal, all I did was optimize. The fact I posted this idea and kept trying to justify it is mainly for me to further understand how my DM came to his conclusion, but I realize that when you get in to the vague rules there are to many possibilities there may be some legitimate way to turn eidolons in to constructs for instance when you spoke about polymorph any object a cool trick is to prepare polymorph any object twice cast once it to turn the eidolon into a clockwork human for 1 hour than cast it again turn the clockwork human in to a clockwork eidolon for a permanent duration. Now this may not work but there are tons of other ways that may. So its fairly safe to say that almost anything is possible in pathfinder even through legal means, but it will likely involve DM consent because anyone with the proper know how can be deity slaying bad ass at 1st level. The fact that this is not tolerated is something that goes without saying, unless a DM wants to make a high power campaign then they relax there grip on what the players can do.

[Cieyrin]

Ok, so here come the questions:

a) If I want to cast dimension door on the Eidolon, do I need to touch it? Or can I go with the listed Range (Long)?

b) After being dimension doored, can the Eidolon still do something? Or is he affected by the spell as I would have been affected? A FAQ states:

The Eidolon is not the caster, but I am applying the spell on him instead of me, so...uh...I am confused :-)

You'd need to touch it to port it to wherever. As for the second question, they aren't the originator of the effect, so I don't think they'd lose their action.

[sol_kanar]

You'd need to touch it to port it to wherever. As for the second question, they aren't the originator of the effect, so I don't think they'd lose their action.

Thanks a lot for the quick reply! :-)

I have another question: are there any good PF Traits for a Summoner? I've seen a couple that give you +2 to Concentration checks, but besides that, not much.

Thanks again, guys!

[Andvare]

There's a trait that gives 1 HP per HD to all fiendish summons. Can't remember the name, it's in Cheliax, Empire of Devils. *checking book* Diabolic Dabbler.

There is always the +initiative, which is as important as ever, your creature does have the same initiative as you.

[Cieyrin]

I tend to favor picking up skills with my traits, like my most recent Summoner picked up Ears and Eyes of the City to gain Perception to go along with having Vigilant Eidolon and the Eidolon having Skilled(Perception) so that we aren't caught by surprise, at least not often. Fast-Talker, Ease of Faith and Bully can help out with picking up social skills to complement your natural high Cha.

As for other traits, Initiative boosters are always nice (Especially since Half-Elves have a Racial trait to do so, which gives them a choice of which kind of trait to use for it). Natural-Born Leader can supplement your Eidolon's and summons' Will saves and, since you're high Cha anyways, will boost Leadership if you do pick that.

[deuxhero]

Two World Magic is also a worthwhile trait, as you don't have minor wish alreddy (less required if you can use 3.5 material, as a ring of it is cheap).

Edit: For a flank buddy or if you just fancy yourself Raidou Kuzunoha (uh...), Ancestral Weapon is pretty decent with Masterwork Transformation allowing you to enchant it.

[sol_kanar]

Thanks for the advice! I am playing a Human, so I went with +2 Initiative (Reactionary) and +2 Concentration (Focused Mind).

[deuxhero]

I'm bored so... Most of these are eyeballing

Using
Useless
Poor
OK
Good
Great
GM/Campaign dependent
Don't know

Traits


Combat
Anatomist: Even for a flank buddy or Synthesist, the bonus is minor and you aren't dependent on criticals.
Armor Expert: The highest ACP armor you will wear is studed leather at the very start and a Mithral Breastplate latter on, both -1. At low levels you can't get the Mount evolution or fly, so if you want a boost for Stealth or Acrobatics, just grab a trait for them and get a +4 bonus. By the time you can afford the second, a Sash of the War Champion will fix the 1 ACP. Upgrade to Magenta if the GM rules you need a hard fighter level to use the sash.
Berserker of the Society/Blade of the Society/Honored Fist of the Society/Bullied/Coherent Rage: Get out of here Summoner! This trait ain't for you!
Courageous: Will is your highest save anyways and traits that give +1 universally exist.
Defender of the Society: You can't wear such armor. If the GM rules Mithral Breastplate works with it, upgrade it a bit, but not much
Deft Dodger: If you fear reflex saving throws, go for it. Reflex is the least important of the 3 saves though.
Demon Slayer: Campaign specific. It is one of your knowledge skills, but only for mounted/flanker/Synthesist even if the campaign would make use of it.
Dirty Fighter: Works for a Flank Buddy, useless for everyone else.
Excitable/Reactionary: Init boost=GOOD. One of the few worthwhile to give your Eidolon if you want more boosts after Improved Initiative.
Fencer: You aren't making AoO unless you are a flank buddy, in which case there are better options. Only saved from red because it works on some simple weapons.
Hill Fighter: Thanks to a wording snag, it only does something on a charge (It doesn't work on a hustle, the default speed for combat that you can't exceed, only a run, and runs are more than your base speed by definition), and if you are charging, you are mounted, which means your mount makes the check.
Jungle Fighter: Campaign specific. Would be worth Black on its own if it applied to all plant based movement impairments (like entangle) regardless of where it is.
Killer: You aren't a crit fisher
Resilient: Fortitude is a weak save and lethal.
River Fighter: You aren't charging.
Savanna Hunter: Better then fencer for the other boost, but still not much.
Slippery: It or equivalent is almost required for Stealth Summoner. Not bad even for others if they will use invisibility at some point.
Sprint: The point of increased speed is so you CAN act.
Strong Arm, Supple Wrist: If you are using a returning spear (which is one of your better options for simple weapons) it is usable, but not great.
Tracker of the Society: If the init boost is universal, it's good (but the +2 boosts are better), if it only applies in favored terrains like the survival bonus, worthless as you don't have them.
Witty Repartee: You got Charisma, so Social Skills=good.

Equipment
Augmented Disguise: Disguise is worthwhile for you, even if just to hide you and your Eidolon's brand, but the bonus is lower than just taking something to make it a class skill.
Dealmaker: Depend on GM. You do have the Charisma for it. On the other hand, as a caster with PF's new crafting rules, you may just make whatever your group wants to buy yourself, as that has no community limits.
Extremely Fashionable: Social skills as class skills are good, and a bonus to all 3 is great. Only problem is you lack minor wish to clean, but UMD fixes it.
Heirloom Weapon: Solid for flank buddies/mounted, otherwise meh. Also meh if you can't upgrade it via Masterwork Transformation. If you want to be Raidou or something, Heirloom Weapon (Katana:Renki) works better than a feat tax.
Improvisational Equipment: GM call and game style reliant.
Iron Liver: Again, just grab Resilient or equivalent for universal +1
Power of Suggestion: I have no idea.
Prehensile Whip: Situational 15 foot grappling hook. At least you don't need to be proficient in the whip.
Quick Learner: You aren't a fighter. Even as a flank buddy/mounted you have better ways to *know* a weapon.
Rough and Ready: Only applies at low levels and all improvised weapons with given stats mirror simple weapons you can alreddy use. If you can enchant masterwork tools as weapons, miner upgrades as pickaxe is the one weapon you can emulate a martial weapon with (it isn't that good a martial weapon, 2 handed 1d8 4X piercing, but a marked improvement on simples) . If you want to be Gordon Freeman or Gunji Dojima, play a melee class firstly.
Stage Magic: You aren't a performer and even if you were it's an expensive cost for the benefit it gives.
Stealthy Escape: If you had any reason to invest in slight of hand over escape artist, which covers all grapples,
Thrown-Together Fashion: Or you know: craft it/buy it? Perhaps in a prison campaign.


Faith
Birthmark: You aren't a divine caster and don't multiclass. +2 situational saves is inferior to +1 all saves of type
Heal: If you really want it, but UMD can outdo heal easily.
Child of the Temple: Both are alreddy class skills.
Ease of Faith Strictly inferior to Extremely Fashionable past level 1, but Diplomacy for a cha focus is still good.
Exalted of the Society/Sacred Conduit/Stalwart of the Society Get out of here Summoner! This trait ain't for you!
Faithful Feedback Doesn't effect UMDed stuff. You do have healing spells, which saves it from red.
First Memories: Default Gnome list contains the best cantrip and you pay to get rid of it?
History of Heresy: While Arcane is bigger on the Save or X, divine spells are a big source of them too.
Indomitable Faith: If you need MORE will, go ahead.
Necrotic Aura: Unlike other situtational +saves, this applies to something with a variety of saves. Better if the campaign is necromancy heavy.
Sacred Touch Or UMD healing?
Scholar of the Great Beyond : Already class skills for you.
St. Clydwell’s Ward: Charisma based but only half HD as caster level and outsiders have pretty good will checks, but it is unlimited times per day and effects all demons rather than a single target per the spell, but ultimately it depends on how many demons you fight if this selective Elbereth is worth it.
Unnatural Presence: You don't need this to intimidate animals (vermin are mindless and do need this though). Again, social skill on charisma based class. Extremely Fashionable or any +1/+1/One is a class skill that exist for intimidate is a better choice, but still good.
Zealot: Campaign dependent.


Magic
Beast of the Society: Get out of here Summoner! This trait ain't for you!
Charlatan: You lack spell slots and spell levels.
Classically Schooled: It alreddy is a class skill. Crafting makes it not worth of a red.
Dangerously Curious: See above. +1 is worthwhile outside of crafting.
Deep Guardian: Minor boost to the AC and attack for some summons.
Earthbound: Can't recall any prominent [air] creatures that have SR and you fly. If it was flying or [air] would be worthwhile.
Eldritch Smith: Great if it applies to enchanting, otherwise much less unless you have some big ticket metal or stone item in mind.
Focused Mind: You don't want to eat AoOs.
Gifted Adept: Possibly some early spell that benefits from this, not checking its value against each spell on the list.
Greater Adept of the Society: You are a spontaneous caster and can't use it.
Havoc of the Society: You aren't a blaster, but this has some uses given the offensive spells you do have and that it is force damage.
Hedge Magician: 5% less cost for magic items adds up quick with big ticket items. Not worth getting if you aren't crafting though.
Lucid Dreamer: Situational save bonuses!
Magical Knack You shouldn't multiclass if you aren't a Synthesist, but for them, worth taking.
Magical Lineage: Metamagic reducers are still crazy and rarer in PF.
Magical Talent: Get an item does this better, though Prestidigitation is cool because it is not on your list though.
Mathematical Prodigy: One is alreddy a class skill, the other is mostly flavor, if the GM supports it, go for it.
Second Tongue: Who is a minion of the Great Old Ones? the boost is handy if it isn't too narrow.
Skeptic: Again, just grab +1 to will. The Shadow X line can have non-will saves, but they aren't used offensively because they are pretty bad for it.
Strength of the Land: Can't recall what CL checks are used for beyond the examples, so can't rate now.
Tar-Baphon’s Whisper: Spell not at hand.
Trickste: You don't have many illusions.
Two-World Magic: Prestidigitation!

Race
Advantageous Distraction: Once a day? And you have to activate it in advance? The fluff doesn't even work with the crunch. It seems to me like you are just playing with your foe rather than being genuinely absent minded.
Adventurous Explorer: +1 doesn't matter if you are fleeing
Arcane Dabbler: See Magical Talent
Assimilated Native: Campaign dependent.
Balloon Headed: It has a penalty to a rare use of a skill and gives you a bonus and a class skill to the most rolled skill in the game.
Big Ears: +2 bonus but no class skill, worth stacking with something that does give it as a skill.
Born To The Water: You going to be swimming for hours in your campaign?
Bouncy:Narrow +2 saves and 1d6 damage less on one rare hazard. Now if it gave you a diplomacy bonus and it as a class skill.
Clearheaded: Illusion is largly based on a single save.
Colonial Entitlement
Colonial Sympathizer
Color Thief: If you are a stealth summoner and used your other trait to make it a class skill, otherwise getting it as a class skill takes higher priority.
Deep Marker: Doesn't even have the decency to make its situational save bonus better than what you can get bonuses to will as a whole with a trait.
Dog-Sniff-Hate: Situtational +2 on attack and detection.
Elven Reflexes: Does the greatness of init bonuses need to be explained?
Foul Belch: Once a day
Freed Slave: If it gave you the option of making Diplomacy as a class skill this would be great. As it stands, unless you deal with a lot of nobles, not worth much.
Goblin Foolhardiness: A melee trait that doesn't even work for Flank Buddies/Mounted!
Goldsniffer: Or take a trait to get +4 total/+2 on ALL checks for the skill?
Grounded: Reflex saves bonus is black on its own. If tumble is balancing, this is blue.
Helpful: Worth something for Flank buddies.
Lettered: Alreddy a class skill, but the secondary bonus could be useful
Nomadic: Neither is that good a skill, but they aren't terrible.
Outcast Take the above instead, it also gets +1 know geography.
Perfect Servant: How much are you diplomancing Aristocrats?
Proud Tribesman
Providential Passenger: Good for a naval campaign or if the DM has you guard caravans a lot.
Pustular: Not that nasty or common. but hurts and gives you two rolls with no limit.
Rapscallion: +2 bonuses to init are better, but still good.
Rude Songs: You don't have an "opponent" for preform checks unless you are a bard and the class skill and you can preform with magic spells anyways
Scholar of Ruins: Dungeonering is a monster knowledge skill...
Scrounger: If not for the GP limit, this might have been good.
Ruthless: See the very first trait in this post.
Seeker of Brightness : Perception check good, though not as good as a +2 bonus or class skill
Slaver
Trifler: Greatest cantrip in the game. Up to you if keeping a cantrip slot is worth only using it for 3 hours out of the day.
Tunnel Fighter: While not universal, it's a bonus to init and underground dungeons are frequent.
Ugly Swine: Disguise is handy for your rune.
Warrior of Old: Universal +2 init, you know the driill.
Warsmith: Hit bonus to limited list of creatures and A&E is a class skill. Depends on GM if A&E is useful.
Youthful Mischief Reflex booster
Zest for Battle:If you have someone Blessing you, it is better than if you don't.

One combo of interest in Ultimate Magic takes 4 feats, Skill Focus: Knowledge: The Planes, Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage and Greater Eldritch Heritage. It's very top heavy (you gain claws, some inherent strength and the 3.5 Malconvoker's signature ability, sadly you don't get the arcana which gives bonus DR to summoned monsters, including your Eidolon via Summon Eidolon)

[KutuluKultist]

There is a problem with the
Mounted Dragon-In-Training (1st-10th level) - Contributed by Torinath

Level 5 build. It cannot have the flyby attack feat, since that feat requires a fly speed, which by the time the feat would be taken (3rd level), the Eidolon can't have. You need to be a 5th level summoner to have a flying Eidolon. And since feats remain fixed through Eidolon redesigns, there is no way to have flyby attack on your Eidolon by level 5. You'll have to take it at level 6, when your Eidolon gets its 5th hit die.

Also, in the races section, you still refer to the half-elf alternate racial feature as "the only way to increase evolution points as of the time of writing." Just deleting this would be clearer, than leaving it in, since extra evolution is now a feat.

[Crustypeanut]

Hey guys, new to the forums, loving this thread though. Although I haven't gotten a chance to try a Summoner yet in actual gameplay, my Pathfinder group will be allowing a complete rework of our (very poorly made, but hilariously so) characters sometime soon, using all of the available books. I've become greatly interested in the summoner class, and in particular, the Broodmaster Archetype. So, I've been coming up with a rather odd design for the class, using my favorite race: Goblins. Goblins, and gunpowder.

The Idea behind it:

Spoiler

Show

The idea is to have 8 small bipedal Eidolons (who resemble goblins), each armed with a weapon or useful skill. At first, I was looking into having a mix of ranged, melee, and 'magic' users (using UMD), but in the end, I decided on the Goblin Firing Squad idea. At level 13, Five of the goblins will be using gunpowder weaponry, one will be acting as a spotter and scout, and two will be using magic items with their beefed up UMD skills. Due to their absurdly low amounts of hit points (1 HD each at level 13? Bah), they'll try and stay far from combat using Muskets, preferably with the Far-Reaching Sight addition to their weapons, if possible. If not, they'll try and stay as far as possible while still being within their touch-attack range. My Goblin Summoner (Yes I know the -2 to cha sucks lol) will get feats such as Gunsmithing, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Wondrous Items, among other useful Summoner feats to properly outfit his squad. He'll make sure to stay in the back of the action.. as he won't be able to afford too much gear for himself I imagine.

Most of the skills went to the Scout, as did the extra HD and extra natural armor, as I expect he'll be the closest to danger of the group. The Str bonus was also given to the scout, and the dex bonus and extra attributes were spread out among the shooters. I think you can split the str and dex bonuses, right? Its not that each pair of +1str/+1dex has to go to the same creature, is it?

And here are the specifics for each of the 8 small Eidolons:

Spoiler

Show

13th Level:
Goblin #1, The Sniper
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 16
Init: +3
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 16, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Stealth +11, Perception +4, Acrobatics +7
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #2, The Dragoon
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 16
Init: +3
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 16, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +11, Perception +4, Acrobatics +7
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #3, The Gunslinger
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 16
Init: +3
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 16, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +11, Perception , Acrobatics +7
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #4, The Musketeer
HD: 1 (2d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 15, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #5, The Sharpshooter
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #6, The Mage
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Use Magic Device +12, Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats:
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra): Skilled (Use Magic Device)(1)
Attacks: Offensive Wands/Scrolls

Goblin #7, The Scout
HD: 3 (3d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 25
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 17, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +21, Perception +7, Sense Motive +7, Bluff +7, Acrobatics +8
Feats:
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra): Skilled (Stealth)(1), Blindsight (30ft)(4)
Attacks: Dagger (Unproficient until next feat)

Goblin #8, The Healer
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Use Magic Device +12, Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats:
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra): Skilled (Use Magic Device)(1)
Attacks: Defensive/Healing Wands/Scrolls

I'm not trying to be overly maximizing of strengths, as our group is mainly for fun rather than powergaming. I Just want to make sure I'm not totally useless, either :P

[sol_kanar]

Hey guys, new to the forums, loving this thread though. Although I haven't gotten a chance to try a Summoner yet in actual gameplay, my Pathfinder group will be allowing a complete rework of our (very poorly made, but hilariously so) characters sometime soon, using all of the available books. I've become greatly interested in the summoner class, and in particular, the Broodmaster Archetype. So, I've been coming up with a rather odd design for the class, using my favorite race: Goblins. Goblins, and gunpowder.

The Idea behind it:

Spoiler

Show

The idea is to have 8 small bipedal Eidolons (who resemble goblins), each armed with a weapon or useful skill. At first, I was looking into having a mix of ranged, melee, and 'magic' users (using UMD), but in the end, I decided on the Goblin Firing Squad idea. At level 13, Five of the goblins will be using gunpowder weaponry, one will be acting as a spotter and scout, and two will be using magic items with their beefed up UMD skills. Due to their absurdly low amounts of hit points (1 HD each at level 13? Bah), they'll try and stay far from combat using Muskets, preferably with the Far-Reaching Sight addition to their weapons, if possible. If not, they'll try and stay as far as possible while still being within their touch-attack range. My Goblin Summoner (Yes I know the -2 to cha sucks lol) will get feats such as Gunsmithing, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Wondrous Items, among other useful Summoner feats to properly outfit his squad. He'll make sure to stay in the back of the action.. as he won't be able to afford too much gear for himself I imagine.

Most of the skills went to the Scout, as did the extra HD and extra natural armor, as I expect he'll be the closest to danger of the group. The Str bonus was also given to the scout, and the dex bonus and extra attributes were spread out among the shooters. I think you can split the str and dex bonuses, right? Its not that each pair of +1str/+1dex has to go to the same creature, is it?

And here are the specifics for each of the 8 small Eidolons:

Spoiler

Show

13th Level:
Goblin #1, The Sniper
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 16
Init: +3
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 16, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Stealth +11, Perception +4, Acrobatics +7
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #2, The Dragoon
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 16
Init: +3
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 16, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +11, Perception +4, Acrobatics +7
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #3, The Gunslinger
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 16
Init: +3
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 16, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +11, Perception , Acrobatics +7
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #4, The Musketeer
HD: 1 (2d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 15, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #5, The Sharpshooter
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats: Exotic Weapon Profiency: Firearms
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra):
Attacks: Double Barreled Musket

Goblin #6, The Mage
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Use Magic Device +12, Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats:
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra): Skilled (Use Magic Device)(1)
Attacks: Offensive Wands/Scrolls

Goblin #7, The Scout
HD: 3 (3d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 25
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 17, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills:Stealth +21, Perception +7, Sense Motive +7, Bluff +7, Acrobatics +8
Feats:
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra): Skilled (Stealth)(1), Blindsight (30ft)(4)
Attacks: Dagger (Unproficient until next feat)

Goblin #8, The Healer
HD: 1 (1d10)
Form: Biped, Small
AC: 15
Init: +2
Speed: 30
Abilities: 12, 14, 11, 7, 10, 11
Skills: Use Magic Device +12, Stealth +10, Perception +4, Acrobatics +6
Feats:
Evolutions (Base): Claws, Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Legs)
Evolutions (Extra): Skilled (Use Magic Device)(1)
Attacks: Defensive/Healing Wands/Scrolls

I'm not trying to be overly maximizing of strengths, as our group is mainly for fun rather than powergaming. I Just want to make sure I'm not totally useless, either :P

Love the concept! Is your summoner also going to be a Goblin? :-)

The possible issues I see is that it will take a lot of time to "move" all your Eidolons on your turn (there are probably more than the rest of your party combined), and traveling with them might be annoying: when you have a single Eidolon, you can Overland Flight it, or even Teleport it...but when you have TEN, it is not so straightforward.

[Crustypeanut]

Yeah, my summoner's going to be a goblin as well. My current character is a goblin.. so I wanted to stick with his general chalk-snorting, eat all paper theme.. XD

I can see moving all of them being a hassle.. but I can probably get past most of that by thinking of a plan in between my own turns. Most of the Eidolons' tactics will be relatively simple too. Shoot, move, reload, as needed, for five of them. The two 'casters' will be situationally used.. they'll mostly be used when someone needs a heal, to buff them in the beginning of the fight, or as a certain spell is needed. The final Eidolon, the 'scout', will 'try' and get some flanking bonuses for the melee fighters, or at least keep an eye out for any extra enemies.

Main problem is the price of the firearms early in the game..

[Cieyrin]

I wouldn't bother having a weapon on the Scout, as you'll do better with its native claws.

Also there's the problem that, as written, double barreled muskets nonsensically have a range increment of 10', while every other two-hander besides blunderbusses have at least 30'. I'd ask your DM to have it use the normal musket range increment, till it gets errata'd to be functional.

[grarrrg]

*goblin summoner*

See if you can be a Blue, its a 3rd party Psionic Goblin withOUT a penalty to CHA.



The only 'problem' I see is feats. At 13th level, you'll have to waste ALL of your Eidolon Feats on giving your 'shooters' the Exotic Weapon prof. feat.
You could conceivably just eat the -4 non-prof penalty since you're going after Touch-AC, but there is also THIS little rules gem:

a nonproficient character who loads a firearm increases all misfire values by 4 for the shots he loads

Also, depending on Pistols/Muskets, your horde might be stuck only firing every other round, as you will NOT have feats left over for Rapid Reload.

You might consider scaling your horde back to just 4 Eidolons to help alleviate some of the above problems.
Possibly 3 Shooters and a Scout/Support?
Or 2 Shooters, Scout, and Support?

[Cieyrin]

See if you can be a Blue, its a 3rd party Psionic Goblin withOUT a penalty to CHA.



The only 'problem' I see is feats. At 13th level, you'll have to waste ALL of your Eidolon Feats on giving your 'shooters' the Exotic Weapon prof. feat.
You could conceivably just eat the -4 non-prof penalty since you're going after Touch-AC, but there is also THIS little rules gem:


Also, depending on Pistols/Muskets, your horde might be stuck only firing every other round, as you will NOT have feats left over for Rapid Reload.

You might consider scaling your horde back to just 4 Eidolons to help alleviate some of the above problems.
Possibly 3 Shooters and a Scout/Support?
Or 2 Shooters, Scout, and Support?

You could have one of the eidolons, like one of the casters, devoted to reloading for one of the shooters to increase fire rate. Alternatively have one of the casters use a wand of Reloading Hands on muskets. I think that's one of the reasons he went double-barreled so the reloading isn't as much of an issue.

[grarrrg]

You could have one of the eidolons, like one of the casters, devoted to reloading for one of the shooters to increase fire rate. Alternatively have one of the casters use a wand of Reloading Hands on muskets.

Reloading Hands- YES.
Help-Reloading- NO. Unless he wastes his 6th Eidolon feat giving one of the Supports Exotic Weapon Prof. all shots loaded will still be at +4 for Misfiring.

....Although, exploding Goblins ARE a Fantasy Staple....

[balistafreak]

How bad should I feel when I create an Eidolon that has a better secondary natural attack without multiattack than the fighter's highest BAB attack?

Because this is totally going to happen in an IRL group I might be joining. It's... terrifying.

I'm not even doing anything close to cheese, for the record.