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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Alright, what's the best way to build a "Batman" (the superhero, not the wizard) Eidolon?

    We need Biped, multiple dips into the Skilled evolution.
    Winged Flight depending on how literal you want to get....
    The main problem seems to be that it's summoner would have to die while it is still a child.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    And now the exciting conclusion! (Hopefully more so than regional was anyway...)



    Religon
    Shining Beacon: You aren't a crit fisher
    Agent of Chance: Once a day reroll is good, but it is only for skill rolls. You may be able to use it on yourself if you have a helmet to protect against flying books.
    Alluring: If only it made Diplomacy a class skill. Oh and you have to be a Dwarf to take it, so that limits who will find you attractive (as opposed to Humans "breed with anything").
    Ambassador: Flat +2 to Diplomacy. Get it as a class skill instead.
    Arcane Depth: Oddly uneven choice of +1 to Spellcraft or +2 to Know arcana. Only getting more write-up than normal is because it is odd.
    Asmodean Demon Hunter: Dependent on demon saturation.
    Backstabber: Flank bonus, so Flank Buddy should always get it.
    Battlefield Caster: Losing spells sucks
    Battlefield Surgeon: Class skills are normally at least black, unless they are outclassed by class features or UMD, which heal is.
    Blade of Mercy: I'm sick of Magenta and this adds both an ability and a easily gained damage bonus.
    Broken Mind: Both are will saves, so get a +1 bonus to that.
    Calistrian Prostitute: Both good class skills. Despite the description, there is no perception bonus.
    Call for Help: Something in your melee range always threatens you unless you wield a reach weapon (if they don't have IAS they can't act on the threat if not armed, but they still threaten you as far as I know). Worse if you aren't a flank buddy.
    Centered Get +1 in two narrow situtations, or +1 universally from something else. Hmm...
    Child of Nature (FoB): You want survival, go for it.
    Child of Nature (APG): Better than the first for the most part, but the same main bonus.
    Cleansing Light: Don't have this feature
    Cleansing the Twisted: +1 damage that requires both a specific weapon type AND target.
    Contract Master: Already a skill for you. Flavor compatible with Summoner though
    Corpse Hunter: +1 attack rolls on undead
    Dawn Renewal: Or use UMD instead of heal and get 1d8+1 NOW.
    Deathspeaker: You don't have these spells and most undead are mindless.
    Deck Fighter: Better if you are expected to be on a ship, but not grand.
    Defensive Strategist: You aren't flatfooted for being unaware or not having moved yet and Rogue levels don't bypass it like UD. SAers will hate you.
    Deformed: Intimidate as a class skill? Yep!
    Demonic Persuasion: If you bind demons it can help
    Destructive Blows: You have no use for strength.
    Devotee of a Dead God: Diplomacy!
    Divine Warrior: No divine spells. UMD doesn't save this from red.
    Ear for Music: +1/+2 specific
    Elven Pantheist: Already a class skill.
    Empty Heart, Full Heart: You have no charm spells.
    Empyreal Focus Once a day +2 to any skill check.
    Erastil’s Speaker: Diplomacy as class skill
    Eye of the Father: You want to preform?
    Eyes and Ears of the City: Most rolled skill in the game
    Eyes of the Wild: Get the above instead
    Faithful Arodenite: Or you can get it as +4 always by taking the one two above this one.
    Fatal Trapper: +1/+1
    Fiendish Confidence: Intimidate as a class skill
    Flame of the Dawnflower: You aren't proficient. Interesting in being fire damage though.
    Flounderer: You have better options for special skills than holding your breath for 10 minitues (and event then you need a con score over 30)
    Fortified Drinker: Or take something for +1 will always
    Good Dreams Roll twice once a day is decent, but the DM decides when you can use it and it adds a lot of paperwork.
    Good Natured: See two above this
    Guardian of the Forge: Both alreddy are.
    Hatred of the Gods: +1 saves against "Divine spells".
    Holy Schemer: Sense Motive is good for a wantabe face.
    Honey-Tongued: +1/+1 that only works against specific people. This is very close to red.
    Honeyed Words: You don't have these spells
    Illuminator: Diplomacy <3
    Inner Beauty +4 on some things ONCE a day
    Inoculated: Too bad they are all fort saves
    Intense Artist: Preform@CS
    Know the Land: Survival
    Kuthite Caster: Spells I don't think you have.
    Lessons of Chaldira: A luckblade is worth 22,060 gp if you have no other method of getting a reroll. Think of how valuable this is.
    Loreseeker: +2 to one skill only in 1 use? So close to red there.
    Lover of the Law: This trait is useless for an odd reason. In common law derived system, someone under mind control doesn't actually break any laws themselves for reasons a lawyer can explain better. A legal system in worlds where mind control is known to exist would doubtlessly make that true intentionally, thus you can never actually gain the additional bonus.
    Magic is Life: That's "always"
    Mother’s Teeth: Useless for you and Pazio hates Monks and (I'm told, haven't checked PF natural weapon rules myself) they can't use it as part of a full attack and get their Amulet's enchantments to it.
    Nimble Fingers, Keen Mind: Disable device
    Opener of Doors : +2 for one specific use. Joy.
    Opportunistic: For you that is limited to "dagger" and you can get less specific AoO boosts.
    Patient Optimist: Retry diplomacy against hostiles
    Potent Concoctions: You don't poison things.
    Practiced Deception: You get spells that let you make a disguise instantly
    Propitiation : Floating +2 bonus among a few skills.
    Provider: +1 on a d20 roll to get food or water. Oddly enough this would apply to the concentration roll for [water] spells (not that you have any).
    Purity of Faith: +1 will saves AND it increases to +2 if it is an evil outsider?
    Resigned: No actual limit, so this is a +1 to UMDing an item after the first failure at minimum.
    Restless Hunger: Potions could qualify as food, so you can drink one for free during a charge. Really only applies to mounted summoners.
    River Freedom: +1 boost to saves for one use, and that use is mostly reflex (a good GM will likely count hold person's will save, but that's it)
    Scaly Ally: Remember that class skill is +3 and such a trait will give a +1 on top of that.
    Secret Knowledge: +2 to a know skill and it is a class skill. The ability to choose the boost after character creation doesn't change you alreddy having them as class skills.
    Seer of Reality: Which is mostly Will except Shadow X, which will ALSO works for. There may be some other situation you would instead of vs illusion.
    Self-Sacrifice: A flea can protect a giant, but this is the opposite of what you want to do.
    Sense of Order: Or grab it as a class skill for +3 always.
    Sensing Imperfection: Sense motives!
    Serpentine Squeeze: You aren't grappling.
    Slayer's Oath: Not sure if this is Pazio, but it is poodoo anyways.
    Sovyrian Pantheist+1 to a platter of rolls, none that important.
    Spirit Guide: Know:Religon@CS
    Spirit Talker: +1 save against one set of divine spells -1 against another. Just grab one that does it generally.
    Starchild: You know what North is. May not even work in non-material plain (due to what "North" is) adventure despite the deity being one for planewalkers!
    Stoic Optimism +2vs Fear
    Strength of the Barghest: It requires an action and you don't do strength.
    Strength of the Sun Praise the sun! This has more uses than skills given you are a charisma based caster.
    Strip the Veils: Sense Motive@CS
    Strong Heart: Seriously Pazio, +1 vs fear and +2 vs intimidate isn't worth a trait.
    Strong Swimmer: Get swim as class skill.
    Strong Willed: In addition to the pointless +2 vs fear, Cayden also offers a trait for the nearly as pointless +2 vs charm/compulsion!
    Talented Organizer Sense motive@CS
    City Protect: Reroll fear in urban enviroments.
    The Flexing Arm: If you aren't a Flank Buddy, dexterity will be higher. Even then I question this.
    Toilcrafter: This replaces Master Craftsman for weapons, but you don't need Master Craftsman because you are a crafter
    Undead Slayer: This exact trait has poped up twice in this section alone alreddy, I'm just giving it red.
    Under Siege: Praise the sun! Both are good skills for you.
    Underlying Principals: Use Magic Device is alreddy a class skill, but I'm going to note that this seems to be only one of two ways to add it.
    Unhinged Mentality: Better than standard +2 vs fear, but still poor
    Unspeakable Bond: Even if the campaign is all about diplomancing aberrations, just get it as a class skill for +4.
    Venom-Drenched : This gets black only for the amusing part that Pathfinder ALSO has a clarification that alcohol is a poison (forget where though).
    Veteran of Battle: +1 initiate and can draw weapons as a free action (still needs clarification on if magic weapons work)
    Vindictive Strike: +1 on attack rolls once a day AFTER you have been hit. Just say no.
    Wasp Whisperer: If you want to diplomance vermin.
    Wisdom in the Flesh: Any one skill based on strength or dex (Or con, but PF removed the one skill that was) is now wisdom based and a class skill. Bad for dexterity because you have a use for that, but for strength both it and wisdom are dump stats, so it is situtational.
    Wise Teacher: +2 to aid another to two skills, one of which isn't that open to aid another.
    Wolf Cub: Scent can be useful

    Well, Religon traits was a LOT better than regional. Most of the worthless ones were at least interesting.

    After this all you have left is campaign traits (and traits labeled "fan or conversion" that I'm not really sure most of them are given the publisher is listed as Pazio, but I have no way of finding them now without looking through every trait AGAIN), and they are (obviously) all campaign dependent and I don't know anything about the campaigns. Ones that stand on their own appear to give bonuses similar to things I've rated, and I should have gotten how to tell a good trait clear over these posts.

    edit:

    Bored again, here are ratings for things labeled fan content despite being listing Pazio as the publisher. I may have done a few of these before.


    Social
    Combat
    Race
    Religon
    Equipment
    Magic
    Local
    Regional (some locations may use Re)

    Suspicious S: Sense Motives
    Accelerated Drinker C: Potions suck and this doesn't do anything to fix it.
    Ghost Sight M: You could use something for perception as class skill and just use see invisible.
    Lost Nobility S: If you are exclusivly fighting them, OK for a flank buddy.
    River Rat R: If you want Swim...
    Rich Parents S: Good at low levels, quickly loses muster.
    Genie Blood Ra: Thematic, but small specific bonuses.
    Precocious Spellcaster R: Not to be confused with the 3.5 early entry trick. Depends on spell choice, not checking for best options
    Aspiring Bard Ra: +1/+2 situational.
    Strong Arm, Supple Wrist C: Throwing weapons aren't TERRIBLE for you, and staying further away is good, but there are better options
    Well-Informed Ra: Diplomacy
    Wharf Rat R: +2 on uses that are outdated when you get fly and +4 VERY situtationally to apprise in a way you are likely only countering the penalty for?
    Dump Salvager R Get perception as a class skill and get +3 to EVERYTHING
    Princess S: Diplomacy or Intimidate
    Vagabond Child R Choice of 3 decent skills
    Latent Psion Ra: +2 vs mind effect.
    Fast-Talker S: Bluff
    Poverty-Stricken S: survival
    Without a Past S: Bluff
    Successful Shirker: No class skills
    Child of Zolurket Ra: +1 damage against undead
    Fanatic Ra: Both Already are
    Militant Merchant Ra: Perception.
    Militia Veteran Re: Survival
    Spirits in the Stone Ra: +2 init in ruins.
    Under Siege Rl: Praise the sun! Bluff or Sense Motive
    Nonchalant Thuggery S: Or get it as a class skill and have it always work.
    Divine Warrior Rl: Arcane caster, not divine
    Cliff Jumper Re: +1/+1 and +1 situtational
    Infernal Influence Ra: Energy resits overlap.
    Failed Apprentice Ra+1 vs arcane
    Masterful Demeanor Ra: Grab it is a class skill!
    Jaded Ra: Get +1 will instead
    Desperate Focus +1 concentration
    Asmodean Demon Hunter Rl: The second is done better by +1 will, though combined in demon heavy campaigns. Oddly explictly kept if you leave the faith, an exception to normal rules for religon traits
    Theoretical Magician M: You are, so it's limited to +2
    Devotee of a Dead God Rl: Diplomacy
    Diabolical Dabbler M: +1 HP per die for fiendish summons
    Dilettante Artist Ra: Diplomacy
    Carefully Hidden Ra: +1 will saves AND an extra +2 vs divination
    Brute: Intimidate
    Egorian School Apprentice Re: Wow, very situtational bonus to two skills
    Survivor Re: Sense motive
    Adopted S: If this means you trade your social trait selection for a free race trait, it has potential, if not bleh.
    Savannah Child Re: Survival
    Brastlewark Businessman Ra +2 for craft Alchemy
    Animal Friend Ra: +1 will saves if an animial is near you (I'll save you the trouble: Familiars are magical beast) and a class skill you alreddy have.
    Ambassador Rl: Or grab it as a class skill for +4
    Venicaan Medic Re: Heal isn't that good a skill.
    Slayer's Oath Rl: Did this before, +1 damage vs undead is iffy.
    City Born L: +1 reflex saves, +2 diplomacy or +2 bluff, Black for Magnimar and it +1 reflex
    Cosmopolitan L: Not only do you get ANY two skills based on a mental stats as class skills, you get two languages (which is not irrelevant when summoning) for free. Possibly the best trait.
    Country Born L: +1 will saves and a bonus (more applicable to Barbarians though)


    Huh, this section was surprisingly decent.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-05-09 at 01:59 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    can someone else check the Flank-buddy build on the guide? Am I the only one who comes up short by 2 CON? What am I missing?!

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by crobledo View Post
    can someone else check the Flank-buddy build on the guide? Am I the only one who comes up short by 2 CON? What am I missing?!
    Nope, you are correct.
    The build includes the -4 Str, +2 Dex from being Small, but neglected the -2 Con.
    Quad base of 14 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con
    Small mod of -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con
    End result of 10 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con
    [retired]

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    Oradin Guide

  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Nope, you are correct.
    The build includes the -4 Str, +2 Dex from being Small, but neglected the -2 Con.
    Quad base of 14 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con
    Small mod of -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con
    End result of 10 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con
    Rocking. Thanks for the confirm!

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I may have just found an awesome loophole.

    Does it say anywhere that a Biped's Default Claws must be applied to the Arms evolution?
    Say the Claws are on the feet, pick up a big meaty 2-hander and go to town!
    [retired]

    Horribly out of date guide goes here:
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  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I'd allow it, but only if you picked up flight or were prone.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-04-26 at 05:01 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    I may have just found an awesome loophole.

    Does it say anywhere that a Biped's Default Claws must be applied to the Arms evolution?
    Say the Claws are on the feet, pick up a big meaty 2-hander and go to town!
    Actually, the most recent version says Claws must be applied to Legs, so you'd have to do it that way. They can't be applied to the Arms at all. ...that's a failure on somebody's part, there.

    So go enjoy your Greatsword wielding Raptor man, b/c that's apparently how they work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #549
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Actually, the most recent version says Claws must be applied to Legs, so you'd have to do it that way. They can't be applied to the Arms at all. ...that's a failure on somebody's part, there.

    So go enjoy your Greatsword wielding Raptor man, b/c that's apparently how they work.
    According to the SRD it can only be applied to the legs evolution once, and says nothing about only being able to apply it to legs, only that the eidolon must have an equal number of limbs evolutions.

    Where are you getting "the most recent version" of this?
    Last edited by WildPyre; 2012-04-27 at 11:45 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by WildPyre View Post
    According to the SRD it can only be applied to the legs evolution once, and says nothing about only being able to apply it to legs, only that the eidolon must have an equal number of limbs evolutions.

    Where are you getting "the most recent version" of this?
    I misread the sentence about Limbs(Legs) being the only viable limbs for claws.

    And by the most recent version, I meant the second printing of the APG, which IS the most recent version, unless a 3rd printing has come out with the dreaded brass knuckles nerf we've been threatened with, among other things.

    In any case, it's not specified what limbs the biped's claws are attached to, so you can feel free to decide that your one instance of leg claws is this one.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2012-04-27 at 01:29 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #551
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    I may have just found an awesome loophole.

    Does it say anywhere that a Biped's Default Claws must be applied to the Arms evolution?
    Say the Claws are on the feet, pick up a big meaty 2-hander and go to town!
    Probably against RAI, but fits with RAW. Were I DM, I'd consider it if you someone did something to counterbalance the fact that you now have "extra" hands (Since you saved two evolution points, maybe I'd take one away at level 3+).

    On a similar note, I'd love to find a way to get rid of a Serpent's bite and tail slap so I could fill it with pincers (all primary attacks if that is the ONLY type of attack it has (assuming I read that correctly)) with grab/constrict for each attack. Too bad the other attacks forced upon the form make all of those pincers secondary.
    Last edited by Barstro; 2012-04-27 at 02:43 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    Probably against RAI, but fits with RAW. Were I DM, I'd consider it if you someone did something to counterbalance the fact that you now have "extra" hands (Since you saved two evolution points, maybe I'd take one away at level 3+).

    On a similar note, I'd love to find a way to get rid of a Serpent's bite and tail slap so I could fill it with pincers (all primary attacks if that is the ONLY type of attack it has (assuming I read that correctly)) with grab/constrict for each attack. Too bad the other attacks forced upon the form make all of those pincers secondary.
    On the claws part, I wouldn't be against it, but I'd rule some sort of penalty if you try to attack with your feet, since your footing become quite poor (unless you have monk levels or something for the whole martial arts shenanigans), but it would be a case-by-case thing.

    Just pumping more attacks? Penalty/ban.

    Just flavor of making a Hitmonlee kinda Eidolon? Go for it.

    As for the pincers, you can have them as primaries if you don't use your bite/tail that round (though yes, I'd love to get rid of them if I'm not gonna use it):
    Quote Originally Posted by PFSRD
    [...] This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
    Anyway, I don't think it's something you cannot talk to your DM about...I mean, the 'rules' for base-forms are quite easy to understand and apply in other senses, so customizing the Eidolons' base forms is hardly even a house-rule.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    On a similar note, I'd love to find a way to get rid of a Serpent's bite and tail slap so I could fill it with pincers (all primary attacks if that is the ONLY type of attack it has (assuming I read that correctly)) with grab/constrict for each attack. Too bad the other attacks forced upon the form make all of those pincers secondary.
    Right idea, wrong Base-type.
    Pincers:
    Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with pincers (this still costs 1 evolution point)
    Pick a Biped.
    Replace Claws with Pincers.
    Add more Arms+Pincers.
    Do NOT add any other types of attacks.
    Go to Pincer-town!

    The replacement is actually a key ingredient in the "Zoidberg"-type Eidolon build.
    [retired]

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Larpus View Post
    As for the pincers, you can have them as primaries if you don't use your bite/tail that round (though yes, I'd love to get rid of them if I'm not gonna use it):
    I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the phrase "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."

    You obviously take that to mean "If a creature uses only one type of attack".

    My rules lawyering (sadly) takes it to mean "If a creature possesses only one type of attack"

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Right idea, wrong Base-type.
    Pincers:
    Pick a Biped.
    Replace Claws with Pincers.
    Add more Arms+Pincers.
    Do NOT add any other types of attacks.
    Go to Pincer-town!

    The replacement is actually a key ingredient in the "Zoidberg"-type Eidolon build.
    You are missing the main part of my hypothetical pincer build.

    Step 1) Attack with pincers (primary attack if I could get rid of the other unused attacks)
    giving it two pincer attacks. These attacks are secondary attacks. The pincers deal 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). Eidolons with the grab evolution linked to pincers gain a +2 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.
    Step 2) Successful attack creates a Grapple check
    Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target.
    Step 3) Use Constrict
    Whenever the eidolon successfully grapples a foe using the grab evolution, it deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the serpentine base form.
    Step 4) Release the grapple
    you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target
    Step 5) go back to step 1

    This would allow the possibility of getting double damage of 1d6 for each pincer (only for serpent) as opposed to 1d4 and some rends for a claw eidolon.

    But, as stated, I think that the build does not allow for the pincers to ever be primary. I also think that the eidolon could only ever have five pincer attacks instead of seven because the unwanted bite and slap take up space because "If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks."

    If there could be an evolution that gets rid of initial evolutions, then my hypothetical pincer build would be good. But, since there is not, pincers are stuck at 5-max secondary attacks.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the phrase "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."

    You obviously take that to mean "If a creature uses only one type of attack".

    My rules lawyering (sadly) takes it to mean "If a creature possesses only one type of attack"
    Agreed.
    The only thing to be clarified is what, exactly is meant by "type".
    "If a creature has only one type of attack, but ... regardless of its type."
    Natural Attacks linky.
    Does it mean 'type' as in Primary/Secondary?
    Or 'type' as in "pincers"?

    I could easily see a DM ruling in favor of the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    You are missing the main part of my hypothetical pincer build.
    ...
    Step 3) Use Constrict
    Then yes, I missed the point.
    Your original post was a little vague, but it did mention "grapple" which is fully compatible with all forms/pincers.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the phrase "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
    I understand, it is indeed dubious and is not how I would rule it or how my DM ruled it, but I can see where you're coming from.

    What about base-form customization? Is that out of the picture?

    It's pretty obvious that the overall rule for these is:

    1. Base values are +2AC, Medium, 13 Con, 7 Int, 10 Wis, 11 Cha, 20ft speed.

    2. Starting off from 12 Str and 12 Dex, you have 4 points for a 1:1 point buy in these two scores.

    3. Pick two good saves and a bad save, must make some sense with the concept (for example, I can't imagine a "crab" being good at Reflexes).

    4. You now have 5 points to pick evolutions, rules are you can buy up to 2-point evolutions and it must have at least one form of natural weapon.

    Personally I don't see too much problem in allowing that as long as it's a concept not easily met otherwise (such as your grappler crab in your interpretation of the rules) and it doesn't come off as too overpowered.

    Which it doesn't seem like it will be, it may be a grappling machine, but still bound by the limit of attacks/level, and it may never branch to other attack types. Worse comes to worse, limit a bit the number of claw attacks since they all have a secondary effect.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    But, as stated, I think that the build does not allow for the pincers to ever be primary. I also think that the eidolon could only ever have five pincer attacks instead of seven because the unwanted bite and slap take up space because "If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks."
    I believe that with the "free" evolutions your able to not take them. You just don't get any points for not taking them so for most instances this is considered not a good thing. I will point out though that bite has a rider on it that at later levels when you have tons of evo points may make you change your pincery tune. Specifically it has an extra level on enhancement not available to any other attack form in that if you spend an extra point on it you get to do 1.5x str damage instead of normal str. damage. Usually not a great investment of evo points but may find a home in your constrict build

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I think I read somewhere (maybe in this very wonderful thread) that while a Summoner is sleeping or unconscious, the Eidolon vanishes as if it was dismissed.

    Is this correct? Is this something that all (D)ismissable spells have in common? I tried to find the reference in d20pfsrd.com , but I am having trouble :-/

    Could someone help me? Thanks in advance!
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by sol_kanar View Post
    I think I read somewhere (maybe in this very wonderful thread) that while a Summoner is sleeping or unconscious, the Eidolon vanishes as if it was dismissed.

    Is this correct? Is this something that all (D)ismissable spells have in common? I tried to find the reference in d20pfsrd.com , but I am having trouble :-/

    Could someone help me? Thanks in advance!
    Eidolons poofing if the Summoner sleeps/gets knocked out is straight out of the APG. Spells aren't the same in that respect, dismissable or not; the only spells that go away if you get knocked out or sleep are ones whose duration is Concentration, as if you're asleep/knocked out, you're not concentrating on it.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Eidolons poofing if the Summoner sleeps/gets knocked out is straight out of the APG. Spells aren't the same in that respect, dismissable or not; the only spells that go away if you get knocked out or sleep are ones whose duration is Concentration, as if you're asleep/knocked out, you're not concentrating on it.
    Thanks! I was looking in the wrong place :-)
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasharm View Post
    I believe that with the "free" evolutions your able to not take them. You just don't get any points for not taking them so for most instances this is considered not a good thing.
    By my lawyering, that is not the case. You choose a base form and get that form. I'd prefer that we could do that (or do the customized forma as suggested earlier) but would rule that we cannot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grasharm View Post
    I will point out though that bite has a rider on it that at later levels when you have tons of evo points may make you change your pincery tune.
    I have no pincery tune; it was just a thought experiment. The Eidolon I want to play is a single-bite quad. (I'd prefer that it be a biped for reach, and find some way to deal with the lack of pounce, but the automatic claws evolution negates some of the single-attack strategy I would use)
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Here are a few corrections:

    1. For Skill-dolon, the feats were changed because Lunge can't be taken until Feat #4. Lunge doesn't apply to attacks of opportunity so Weapon Focus (Bite) or Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) may be better choices. It's nice to have a backup weapon. Also, for some reason I messed up with Dex the first time around, but it's corrected now.

    2. For Tank-dolon, I adjusted the attack routine in the 10th level build.

    3. Added Magic-dolon. Focuses on the Eidolon using magic.

    1. Skill-dolon

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    Build intended to be a functioning rogue. Halfling riding a serpent. However, lacks mechanics for significant sustainable damage from the Eidolon:

    <Skill-dolon> (1st Level)

    Form: Serpentine
    AC: 13 (Base 10 + Dex 3)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 20 ft
    Ability Scores: <12 16 13 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Perception(1)> +4, <Stealth(1)> +7, <Acrobatics(1)> +7, <Disable Device(1)> +7, <Diplomacy(1)> +4
    Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach(bite), tail, tail slap>
    Evolutions (extra): Limbs(Arms), Mount
    Attack Routine: Bite +4 (1d6+1) and Tail Slap -1 (1d6+1).
    Notes: Halfling favored class bonus (or 5th level ability increase to Int) gives extra skill point. Maxes out first four skills and dips the fifth into useful skills. Halfling has Outrider alternate racial trait (bonus on Ride and Handle Animal) and Wanderlust alternate racial trait (+1 CL on movement spells, +2 on Knowledge(Geography) and Survival). Expeditious Retreat compensates for slow movement. Mage Armor, a good ride check, and Mounted Combat from the halfling help protect the Eidolon from attacks, though admittedly not much at level 1 due to short spell durations.

    <Skill-dolon> (5th Level)

    Form: <Serpentine>
    AC: 20 (Base 10 + Dex 4 + INA 2 + NA 4)
    Initiative: +4
    Speed: 20 ft
    Ability Scores: <14 19 13 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Perception(4)> +15, <Stealth(4)> +19, <Acrobatics(4)> +19, <Disable Device(4)> +19, Diplomacy(1)> +4, <Sense Motive(1)> +4, <Bluff(1)> +4, <Intimidate(1)> +4
    Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st), Combat Reflexes (2nd)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach(bite), tail, tail slap>
    Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Perception)(1), Skilled(Stealth)(1), Skilled(Disable Device)(1), Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Mount(1), Improved Natural Armor(1), Limbs(Arms)(2)>
    Attack Routine: Bite +7 (1d6+2) and Tail Slap +2 (1d6+2)
    Notes: With impressive skills, the Eidolon can make a good skill-monkey rogue, freeing up options for the Summoner and the rest of the party.

    <Skill-dolon> (10th Level)

    Form: <Serpentine>
    AC: 28 (Base 10 + Dex 8 + INA 2 + NA 8)
    Initiative: +8
    Speed: 20 ft
    Ability Scores: <16 26 13 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Perception(8)> +19, <Stealth(8)> +27, <Acrobatics(8)> +27, <Disable Device(8)> +27, <Diplomacy(3)> +6, <Sense Motive(2)> +5,
    <Bluff(2)> +5, <Intimidate(1)> +4
    Feats: Weapon Finesse (1st), Combat Reflexes (2nd), Agile Maneuvers (3rd), Lunge (4th), Multiattack (bonus)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap>
    Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Perception)(1), Skilled(Stealth)(1), Skilled(Disable Device)(1), Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Mount(1), Improved Natural Armor(1), Trip(Bite)(2), Ability Increase(Dex, 2x)(4), Limbs(Arms)(2)>
    Attack Routine: Bite +14 (1d6+3) and Tail Slap +8 (1d6+3)
    Notes: By this point there are some evolution and skill points to spare, so you can change a few evolutions to make it even more Skilled if your party needs a face. A good CMB and Trip on the bite helps control the battlefield. Medium size helps with practicality. Improved Share Spells with Reduce Person could also be helpful.



    2. Tank-dolon
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    Build intended to soak up enemies' attacks and influence the battleground. Focuses on Con/HP more than other builds. Gnome Summoner uses favored class bonus to give HP to Eidolon and takes Toughness. He was the Academician and Gift of Tongues alternate racial traits.

    <Tank-dolon> (1st Level)

    Form: <Quadruped>
    AC: 14 (Base 10 + Dex 2 + INA 2)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 40 ft
    Ability Scores: <14 14 13 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Intimidate(1)> +12, <Perception(1)> +4, <Diplomacy(1)> +12, <Bluff(1)> +4
    Feats: Antagonize (1st)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, limbs(legs)(2)>
    Evolutions (extra): Improved Natural Armor(1), Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1)
    Attack Routine: Bite +3 (1d6+2)
    Notes: Not enough evolution points to get an ability increase in Con yet and still Antagonize well. However, Antagonize makes sure that attacks go to the character that comes back the next day, rather than the one that doesn't (except with a mustache, a new hat, and an accent of course). Diplomacy and intimidate are useful with Antagonize and are good for influencing people. Gnome picks up Mage Armor, Shield, and (later) Compel Hostility.

    <Tank-dolon> (5th Level)

    Form: <Quadruped>
    AC: 21 (Base 10 + Dex 3 + INA 4 + NA 4)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 40 ft
    Ability Scores: <16 16 16 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Intimidate(4)> +15, <Perception(4)> +7, <Diplomacy(4)> +15, <Bluff(2)> +5, <Sense Motive(2)> +5
    Feats: Antagonize (1st), Weapon Focus(Bite) (2nd)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, limbs(legs)(2)>
    Evolutions (extra): Improved Natural Armor(2x)(2), Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1), Claws(1), Pounce(1), Ability Increase(Con)(2)
    Attack Routine: Bite +8 (1d6+3) and 2 claws +7 (1d4+3)
    Notes: Weapon Focus (Bite) is just a step to Dazzling Display. Also helpful for when you pick up the Poison evolution (Need all the extra to-hit. It is a Con build rather than a Str build after all). Bear's Endurance, Evolution Surge(lesser), and (later) Barkskin help.

    <Tank-dolon> (10th Level)

    Form: <Quadruped>
    AC: 28 (Base 10 + Dex 3 + INA 6 + NA 10 - Size 1)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 40 ft
    Ability Scores: <26 16 19 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Intimidate(8)> +19, <Perception(8)> +11, <Diplomacy(8)> +19, <Bluff(4)> +7, <Sense Motive(4)> +7
    Feats: Antagonize (1st), Weapon Focus(Bite) (2nd), Dazzling Display(Bite) (3rd), Ability Focus(Poison) (4th), Multiattack (bonus)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, limbs(legs)(2)>
    Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1), Mount(1), Improved Natural Armor(3x)(3), Poison (Con based)(4), Large(4)>
    Attack Routine: Bite +17 (1d6+8) and 2 Claws +16 (1d4+8)
    Notes: With a good Con, the Eidolon should have a pretty good number of HP. Decent AC for a large creature (At level 12 may be better off with Medium and an extra application of Con increase though). Potentially better Bluff and Sense Motive if skilled is applied. DC 20 for Poison. Set up for Intimidating Prowess for the next feat, freeing up an evolution point that was put into Skilled or simply added to really intimidate things. Between poisoning, intimidating, and antagonizing, you'll never run out of combat options. Mount gives another option for the Gnome.


    <Magic-dolon> (1st Level)

    Form: <Serpentine>
    AC: 13 (Base 10 + Dex 3)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 20 ft.
    Ability Scores: <12 16 13 7 10 11>
    Skills: <Use Magic Device(1)> +15, <Stealth(1)> +9, <Perception(1)> +4, <Sense Motive(1)>+4
    Feats: Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) (1st)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap>
    Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Use Magic Device)(1), Limbs(Arms)(2)>
    Attack Routine: Bite +2 (1d6+1) and Tail Slap -3 (1d6+1).
    Notes: Standard Wand Monkey really. Serpentine form for extra AC and Climb. If you're small you can ride him after a level or two to help him access more magic items, and if not you can give him a backpack with them. At level 2 he can start taking the Basic Magic evolution, likely for Stabilize. Resilient Eidolon gives the option of him Stabilizing you. Both ability score increases by level 10 go to Cha to qualify for the Magic Evolution line.

    <Magic-dolon> (5th Level)

    Form: <Serpentine>
    AC: 22 (Base 10 + Dex 4 + INA 4 + NA 4)
    Initiative: +8
    Speed: 20 ft.
    Ability Scores: <14 18 13 7 10 12>
    Skills: <Use Magic Device(4)> +16, <Stealth(4)> +11, <Perception(4)> +7, <Sense Motive(1)> +4, <Bluff(1)> +5, <Intimidate(1)> +5, <Diplomacy(1)> +5
    Feats: Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) (1st), Improved Initiative (2nd)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap>
    Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Use Magic Device)(1), Limbs(Arms)(2), Improved Natural Armor(2x)(2), Basic Magic(Light)(1), Minor Magic(Cure Light Wounds)(2)>
    Attack Routine: Bite +6 (1d6+2) and Tail Slap +1 (1d6+2)
    Notes: By now he's quite awesome with magic devices and Evolution Surge (Lesser) can be used with Basic and Minor Magic to spontaneously cast anything on either of their lists. Not exactly great options yet, but it gets better. In the meantime he's able to heal magically even without magic devices. Granted, 5th level is when you start to get a lot of milage out of your Summon SLA, as you have many summoned beings able to better duplicate many effects with their own SLA. This build is seeing how far we can go in this direction with the Eidolon though, so it's quite easy to go a little less heavily with the magic thing. Since his attacks will hardly be worthwhile, you can use Defending Eidolon to have him help protect you whenever he's not casting anything.

    <Magic-dolon> (10th Level)

    Form: <Serpentine>
    AC: 30 (Base 10 + Dex 5 + INA 6 + NA 8 + Dodge 1)
    Initiative: +9
    Speed: 20 ft.
    Ability Scores: <16 20 13 7 10 13>
    Skills: <Use Magic Device(8)> +23, <Stealth(8)> +16, <Perception(8)> +11, <Sense Motive(1)> +4, <Bluff(4)> +8, <Intimidate(1)> +5, <Diplomacy(1)> +5, <Knowledge(Planes)(1)> +2
    Feats: Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) (1st), Improved Initiative (2nd), Dodge (3rd), Great Fortitude (4th), Multiattack (Bonus)
    Evolutions (base): <bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap>
    Evolutions (extra): <Skilled(Use Magic Device)(1), Limbs(Arms)(2), Improved Natural Armor(3x)(3), Basic Magic(Stabilize)(1), Minor Magic(Vanish)(2), Major Magic(Cure Moderate Wounds)(upgraded to 3/day)(5)>
    Attack Routine: Bite +11 (1d6+3) and Tail Slap +6 (1d6+3)
    Notes: Next level you have the option of taking Ultimate Magic, but Major Magic may have already been overkill. This is more of a gimmick build by this point, but it looks fun. The utility of your Eidolon is far overshadowed by your SLA. Feats are purely protective, since it's not like he's actually contributing to combat other than protecting you while he misses with his low damage bite and casting things.
    Last edited by nategar05; 2012-04-30 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hey, everyone! Still playing a Summoner, and having a blast, mostly thanks to this thread :-)

    During today's session, we had a doubt, and we were not able to solve it in a completely satisfying way, so I am asking you for help. When summoning more than a monster with the Summon Monster ability, how can the Summoner place the creatures? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that they cannot be more than 30 ft apart from each other, but the Summon Monster entry in the PF SRD does not say anything of the sort: it just looks like that you can summon the creatures anywhere within Close range.

    Is that correct? Or am I missing something?

    Thanks in advance for your help! :-)
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I can't find any particular restriction on placement, so I assume it doesn't exist. It's a pretty common restriction in spells that affect multiple targets, Summon Monster chain just isn't one of them.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I can't find any particular restriction on placement, so I assume it doesn't exist. It's a pretty common restriction in spells that affect multiple targets, Summon Monster chain just isn't one of them.
    Ok! Thanks :-)
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by sol_kanar View Post
    During today's session, we had a doubt, and we were not able to solve it in a completely satisfying way, so I am asking you for help. When summoning more than a monster with the Summon Monster ability, how can the Summoner place the creatures?
    It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.
    you can summon one creature from the 2nd-level list or 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 1st-level list.
    Nothing in the language of the spell/SLA (that I could find, anyway) says anything about placing multiple creatures. This is also true for Summon Minor Monster or Summon Swarm (which is a single unit anyway).

    Because nothing specifically allows you to place the multiple creatures where you want, you default to the original spell. For that reason, I would say that, when summoning multiples, you decide on one square, and they all have to get as close to that square as possible.

    The other option that I might consider (if given a bottle of single malt) is that the player decides, when casting the spell, where all the summons will go, within the range of the spell, or within 30 feet. After rolling to see how many creatures are summoned, I would roll again to see which of those were not summoned. (there is no language that the creatures are summoned one at a time, so the character is attempting to summon them all at the same time. If only two show up, it should be random as to which two)

    On a side note, when things like this come up, I'd let everyone weigh in on what the rule should be, and if there is a difference of opinion, agree on the percent chance for each interpretation, roll the dice, and use that rule until a third party (smarter people than me at the playground) weigh in.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    there is no language that the creatures are summoned one at a time, so the character is attempting to summon them all at the same time. If only two show up, it should be random as to which two
    They must be the same kind, so I don't believe this makes any difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    They must be the same kind, so I don't believe this makes any difference.
    Allow me to explain;

    Assuming you accept the premise that the caster gets to decide different locations for the 1d3 creatures (which I do not);

    I do not think the spell means you summon 1d3 creatures as if you were making 1d3 attacks (A goes here, if there is a B, then it goes there, Same for C).

    I think the spell means that 1d3 creatures are summoned (A at spot x, B at spot y, and C at spot z) if only two are actually summoned, then random roll to see if A, B or C is the one not summoned.

    But this is based on how I read statutes. The makers of the game are probably not attorneys and may have assumed different things.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Barstro View Post
    Allow me to explain;

    Assuming you accept the premise that the caster gets to decide different locations for the 1d3 creatures (which I do not);

    I do not think the spell means you summon 1d3 creatures as if you were making 1d3 attacks (A goes here, if there is a B, then it goes there, Same for C).

    I think the spell means that 1d3 creatures are summoned (A at spot x, B at spot y, and C at spot z) if only two are actually summoned, then random roll to see if A, B or C is the one not summoned.

    But this is based on how I read statutes. The makers of the game are probably not attorneys and may have assumed different things.
    But it makes no difference. A, B and C have exactly the same stats.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    But it makes no difference. A, B and C have exactly the same stats.
    PC wants;
    A to show up behind the enemy's front line to flank with Rogue
    B to show up three squares away from A, to flank with Fighter
    C to be in the enemy's caster's face.

    Whichever one of these doesn't show up can make a big difference.


    If, however, your ruling is (like mine) that the PC gets to choose square X for the summoning, and the first one gets that square, and any others are randomly placed in surrounding squares, then no, it does not make a difference.
    Last edited by Barstro; 2012-05-09 at 12:48 PM.
    Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan

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