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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 70% Complete)

    A few typos/corrections/suggestions:
    Half-Elf "points than than normal" duplicate than.

    "Rejuvinate Eidolon" line of spells, compare to the "Cure X Wounds" line. "Cure X" can be used on anyone, OR to harm undead. Cure Light only heals _1_ less point than Lesser, Cure Serious heals 3 less on average than 'Rejuve-medium'. The closest equivalent to Greater is "Breath of Life", which again, is only worse by 5 hp.
    If UMD is an option DEFINATELY get a Wand of Cure X instead.

    Spells section:
    Point out that even though the Summoner "only" have access to 6th Levels of spells, that most of the spells on the Summoner list are 'discounted' versus the Wizard list.
    For example:
    Most 3rd Level Sum-Spells are 3rd or 4th on the Wiz list.
    Most 4th Level Sum-Spells are 5th or 6th on the Wiz list.
    Most 5th Level Sum-Spells are 6th or 7th on the Wiz list.
    and Most 6th Level Sum-Spells are 8th or 9th on the Wiz list.
    The main thing the Summoner lacks is spell slots.

    Maybe include a brief blurb on each of the Summoner Specific Spells
    Evolution Surge -Line
    Purified Calling
    Rejuvenate Eidolon -Line
    Summon Eidolon
    Transmogrify
    Unfetter

    Level 3 Summoner spells,
    You have "Rejuvinate Eidolon, Lesser" should be 'standard'.

    Level 6 Spells
    Have "Charm Monster" listed, should be "Charm Monster, Mass"
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-01-25 at 06:10 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 70% Complete)

    Glad to see you making a new handbook, Saph! It looks quite nice so far.

    I started on a handbook for the summoner during the beta, but the final version really disappointed me and I deleted my notes. I still feel like the eidolon's rules are needlessly complicated and the inability to simultaneously use your eidolon and your summoned monster SLA was a major design mistake. But enough on that.

    A suggested addition for equipment:

    Varisian idol (Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, I've seen it elsewhere as well): A 50g optional component that adds +2 HP/HD for summoned monsters from SM and SNA.

    Also, for those playing in the Pathfinder Society or using their material, the Cheliax traits are excellent for a summoner. They're free online, I've listed the relevant ones below.

    Cheliax Traits

    Devil’s Mark (Cheliax Faction): You bear the stain of a
    higher fiend upon you and any evil creature who sees it
    may think twice before crossing you. You gain a +2 trait
    bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense
    Motive checks when dealing with outsiders of the evil
    subtype.

    Fiendish Presence (Cheliax Faction): Your family
    routinely held court with pit fiends and erinyes when you
    were a child and, as a result, you learned to manipulate
    people better than most. You gain a +1 trait bonus on
    Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks. One of these skills
    (your choice) is always a class skill for you.

    Master of Pentacles (Cheliax Faction): Your many years
    spent studying the art of summoning has given you a
    unique knowledge of these subtle and complicated arts.
    Once per day, when casting a spell of the Conjuration
    school, you are at +2 caster level when determining the
    duration of the spell.
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Saph's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 70% Complete)

    Typos corrected: thanks for that.

    On the Rejuv/CLW thing: yeah, CLW is better. The main advantage of Rejuvenate Eidolon is that it's on your spell list, meaning you don't have to hit a DC 20 UMD check, which can be tricky at low levels.

    Akal: I read your posts on Summoners, yes. :) I think the class is still workable, though - I'll put in an explanation once I get to summons. The Varisian idol sounds good.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 80% Complete)

    Eidolons section is under way! Currently about 2/3 done, including general advice, feats, and the first three Eidolon Packages.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 70% Complete)

    Not to be nitpicky (ok, it's nitpicky), but you missed the "than than" under Half-elf.

    The rest is looking pretty good.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Saph's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 70% Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Not to be nitpicky (ok, it's nitpicky), but you missed the "than than" under Half-elf.
    Thanks. Corrected.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 80% Complete)

    Thank you Saph for putting in this hard work
    Funny, I always figured I'd be killed by a paladin.
    So, what you're saying is we rolled a 1 on our credit check?

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 80% Complete)

    Glad it's helpful! I'll be out for the rest of the day, so the rest of the Eidolons section will have to wait till tomorrow.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 90% Complete)

    Eidolons section is done! Includes a general guide to eidolons, natural attacks, and feats, a weapon vs. natural weapon comparison, 7 different Eidolon packages, some 1st-level suggestions, and the 10th-level "Killer Centaur" example build.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 95% Complete)

    Summoned Monsters section is done!

    I didn't bother to do a full review of all the options here, partly because they play a secondary role to your Eidolon, and partly because the work's already been done by other guides.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 95% Complete)

    The pouncer (1st level sample eidolon build) chose imp natural armor. It says in the description it can only be taken once every five levels. I read that as being at least level 5 to grab it, or am I mistaken?

    Otherwise a good handbook, and I'll be sure to use some of it for my upcoming summoner this weekend :)

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 95% Complete)

    By the rules, I think you're right. I'm pretty sure this is an error - all the other 1-point abilities can be taken at 1st-level, and everything with a level requirement has it stated clearly. Unfortunately, the Summoner class wasn't edited terribly well. I'll add a note.

    Edit: written by Joshua Frost, the PF society rules guy.

    "As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:

    The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.

    Hope this helps!"
    Last edited by Saph; 2011-01-29 at 07:08 AM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 97% Complete)

    FAQ section has been added. Ask any additional questions below.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 97% Complete)

    After reading the handbook decided to give Summoner's another look. When looking over the Eidolon traits I noticed the one point trait "Skilled". Gives a +8 racial bonus to one skill. The Eidolon class skills are pretty flexible at the start, so this opens a lot of ways to get a very focused skill monkey at low levels.

    Some possible builds that come to mind:
    Humanoid with improved stat Charisma, and improved skill intimidate. Pick up weapon focus claw first level, and then Dazzling Display at 3rd level. I think it would do better then a similar build using half elf or half orc and bard.

    Also at first level, could have a hard to beat linguistics build for opposed forgery checks. Skill Focus Linguistics, improved skill linguistics, improved stat intelligence.

    It looks like there is no diplomacy as a full round action option in Pathfinder, which might nerf a diplomancer build.

    Is there anyway to get trapfinding from a feat?
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 97% Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    Is there anyway to get trapfinding from a feat?
    No, but you don't really need it. In Pathfinder, any class can find normal or magic traps regardless of the DC. Trapfinding just gives you a bonus (and lets you use Disable Device on traps that you otherwise couldn't apply it to).
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Under Construction, 97% Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    Is there anyway to get trapfinding from a feat?
    For 3.5, you can take Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment for Kobold Domain.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Complete!)

    Items are done and handbook is officially finished!

    I'll be going over the handbook for a few more days, so if you want to submit any extra suggestions, material, etc, now's the time.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Complete!)

    Thanks again Saph. It looks great.

    So whats the next project in the works? Alchemist's Handbook next?
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    Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook (Complete!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thefurmonger View Post
    Thanks again Saph. It looks great.

    So whats the next project in the works? Alchemist's Handbook next?
    Heh. I've got a bunch of exams coming up and some writing contracts too, so I'm going to have my hands full with work for a while. We'll see!
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hey Saph, Love the summoner book.. Just a slight change needed tho.

    The Eidolon Quadruped Free evolutions are as follows:

    Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).

    No pounce.

    I am presently playing a Gnome summoner with a quadruped. I am doing the mounted-lance thing. I based it off the muppet in the movie Labyrinth. Course, my eidolon isn't a coward like the dog.. Just a Gnome paladin wanna-be... its fun. And with the Eidolon being intelligent, we get into debates on things I should do and not.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Nice guide, here, Saph. I would like to point out something, though. With the Damage Reduction evolution, it's DR/Alignment, not DR/Magic, so it's much more resilient than you're giving it credit for.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hey, I saw your handbook and I have just a couple suggestions.

    I have done some exploration of some summoner multi-class options. I have a thread in the Pathfinder forums that might be interesting to you. Take a look if you like.

    Four levels of Summoner is a good cut off, because you can get decent skill bonuses, 2nd level spells (haste), the shield ally power, and with the Magical Knack trait, qualify for the really good crafting feats, such as Wondrous Item, Wand and Arms and Armor. This particular route is great for rogues and pretty much any full BAB class. You can get by with just a 12-14 Cha too, so it doesn't impact your other statistics.

    On the flip side, a summoner with a level in Barbarian is good if you go flanking buddy, or two levels in Paladin can grant you minor healing and major bonuses to saves. Of course these are only decent options if you are guaranteed never to make level 20, but since that doesn't happen a whole lot, it is definitely worth consideration, especially in Pathfinder Society play, where 12 is the cut off, and you get your highest level spells at 10.

    Dragon Disciple is also a decent prestige class for combat oriented Summoners. Four levels gives them +4 to str, three primary natural attacks (one at x1.5 str), +2 natural armor, and a minor breath weapon for -1 caster level, and -4 Eidolon level. Its a fantastic option if your DM lets you apply Boon Companion to your Eidolon, even though its normally illegal.

    I worked up a 1Barb/4Summ/10DD/5Summ build that gets 6th level spells at level 20, and gets Form of the Dragon II with a small eidolon (looks like a kobold) who rides him, hides, and uses wands every round starting at character level 5. For less spells and more damage, the 4Barb/1Summ/4DD/11Barb is good, especially if you go Invulnerable Rager. Love that damage resistance!

    Anyway, I hope that my ramblings were helpful to you. This is truly a versatile class, and an underrated one in my estimation. Thanks for all the work you put into this.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Saph, I want to thank you for the work you put into this and the Pathfinder handbook. I'll be playing in a Summoner in a Pathfinder game shortly and both of these have come in useful (even if I do plan on ignoring your advice on some matters ).
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Thanks for the feedback! Incorporated some of the corrections (except the pounce one - couldn't find which post it was referring to).
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #4 in the series, Chosen, is out as of September 2013. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Just thought of something. Breath Weapon seems like something you'd want to Evolution Surge, like the various resistances and immunities, so you can tailor it to the circumstances. So, not totally worthless for a sort of nova effect.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Thanks for the feedback! Incorporated some of the corrections (except the pounce one - couldn't find which post it was referring to).
    Sorry, I made an assumption that you were listing the base forms out of the book (post #6 under Eidolon Base Forms). You had listed the Summoners abilities but you hadn't listed the Eidolons Base form abilities. Got confused there.
    Last edited by shogahin; 2011-02-15 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Me and my GM are having a discussion on the restriction of picking 1 base form. I was wondering if having all 3 forms be available would change the balance of the class with the following caveats in place:

    1) As it states in the summoner listings, only 1 eidolon can be active at any time. You can't have an eidolon active and summon one at the same time. You must dismiss your present eidolon and spend a minute to summon a new one.

    2) All skills and feats would not change form to form. If you took a feat only the biped could use, you couldn't use it in Quadruped form.

    3) Evolutions can be distributed over all 3 forms or to just one. Summoners choice.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Throwing out my plan for my Summoner's Eidolon, a Slugger build the focuses on controlling an area through reach, multiple AoOs, and Trip.

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    Area controller
    1st-level:
    Form: Biped
    AC: 15 (10 Base, +4 NA, +1 Dex) (19 with Mage Armor) (13/17 Enlarged)
    CMB: +4 (+5 Enlarged)
    CMD: 15
    Initiative: +1
    Speed: 30’
    Ability Scores: Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
    Feats: MWP(Scythe) (1st)
    Evolutions (base): Claws, Limbs(arms), Limbs(Legs)
    Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception) (1), Reach(Weapon/Scythe)(1), NA (1)
    Attack Routine: Scythe +4 (2d4+4)

    5th-level:
    Form: Biped
    AC: 20 (10 Base, +4 NA, +4AB (as NA), +2 Dex) (24 with Mage Armor) (17/21 Enlarged)
    CMB: +8 (+9 Enlarged)
    CMD: 20
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 30’
    Ability Scores: Str 18 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
    Feats: MWP(Scythe) (1st), Power Attack (3th)
    Evolutions (base): Claws, Limbs(arms), Limbs(Legs)
    Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception) (1), Reach(Weapon/Scythe)(1), NA (1), Abilty Boost(Dex)(2), Tail (1), Tail Slap(1), Push(Tail) 1
    Attack Routine: Scythe +8 (2d4+6), Tail Slap +3 (1d6+2)

    10th-level:
    Form: Biped
    AC: 26 (10 Base, +6 NA, +8AB (as NA), +3 Dex, -1 Size) (30 with Mage Armor)
    CMB: +18
    CMD: 29
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 30’
    Ability Scores: Str 28 Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
    Feats: MWP(Scythe) (1st), Power Attack (3rd), Combat Reflexes(6th), Improved Critical(Scythe) (9th)
    Evolutions (base): Claws, Limbs(arms), Limbs(Legs)
    Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception) (1), Reach(Weapon/Scythe)(1), NA (1), Ability Boost(Dex)(2), Tail (1), Tail Slap(1), Push(Tail) (1), Ability Boost(Dex)(2), Large(4)
    Attack Routine: Scythe +17/+12 (2d6+13), Tail Slap +15 (1d8+4)

    Notes:Attack and Damage don't take PA into account, nor expected stat boosting items (Str and Dex). If I buy/make a +Dex item for the Eidolon and, through play experience, don't feel the need to be able to make more then 3 AoOs, the second Ability Boost(Dex) would be replaced with an extra set of Limbs(Arms) so it can use both its claws and its Scythe in its attack routine.

    Tactics: Scythe + reach = trip attempts without AoOs even without Improved Trip. Tail Slap with push is used to control enemy's positions, and to a make a full attack result in an enemy lying prone non-adjacent to the Eidolon but still within the Eidolon's reach.


    Thoughts and criticisms welcome.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-02-19 at 01:50 PM.
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    The "Killer Centaur"'s numbers are not quite right. The Bite Claws will be secondary attacks, not primary, so -5 to hit and half strength damage.

    I ran the numbers, with +1 Great Sword, Belt of Strength +2, Greater Magic Fang (+1 to all Natural weapons) and the average damage, assuming Haste and Pounce, is 126 hp - so get the Archer to soften the target up first and that Fire Giant is going down. (Damage Corrected from original number of 131, I have improved the spreadsheet that I was using.)

    Against a creature with damage reduction that cannot be overcome by the setup used (For Killer Centaur that is all of them except /Magic) the damage is reduced to 87vs 5/, 458 vs 10/ & 42 vs 15/ (Very approximate numbers for that)
    Last edited by DThomassen; 2011-03-24 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Incorrect Numbers

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    What do you guys think about this build:

    Stat priorities are CHA > STR > CON > DEX

    Human Summoner with a 1 lvl dip in Fighter

    LVL Class --- Feat
    1 -- Sum 1 -- Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack
    2 -- Ftr 1 --- Spirited Charge
    3 -- Sum 2 -- Weapon Focus: lance
    4 -- Sum 3
    5 -- Sum 4 -- Dazzling Display

    The 1 lvl dip in fighter takes care of the weapon proficiency for the lance, allows you to wear a mithril breastplate without ASF, and provides the extra feat the build needs to be decent by lvl 2. You'll have to enlarge person your eidolon in order to ride him in combat, so take that as one of your 2 first level spells.

    You start off decent at lvl 1 and very deadly at lvl 2. WF + Dazzling Display gives you something to do after you've buffed and charged. Take a full round action to demoralize all enemies within 30'. Your high charisma makes you great at this right off the bat. Personally I would take Spell Focus (conjuration) at 7th and Augment Summoning at 9th, but there's no reason you couldn't take Intimidating Prowess, Skill Focus (Intimidate), and / or Persuasive to make you really quite good at demoralizing your enemies.
    Last edited by Xykal; 2011-03-29 at 07:15 PM.

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