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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    No, I didn't, but I was going to so thanks anyway!

    Also, does that archatype happen to stack with any other Archatypes?
    The Evolutionist stacks with First Worlder, Master Summoner, Blood God Disciple (Half-orc), Shadow Caller (Fetchling) and Wild Caller (Half-elf).
    Blood God Disciple (Half-orc) also stacks with both Synthesist and Brood Master. It also stacks, in theory, with Shaitan Binder (Oread), but that is very unlikely to work, as they are both racial archetypes.

    None of these are terribly interesting though. At least not from an optimization POV.
    Edit: This is because Blood God Discipline is a terrible archetype, and Evolutionist is not much better.
    Last edited by Andvare; 2012-09-02 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Andvare View Post
    The highest damage potential is clearly the Kali multi weapon double slice type (be sure your GM accepts that you can take double slice with multi weapon fighting), as the only limit to how many attacks you can have in one round with a weapon, is your evolution points. However, this build is severely challenged by DR.
    A more typical build is the centaur build. Pounce, one huge weapon and as many natural attacks as your level allows. Extra evolutions points used to buff str, con, dex and armour and other goodies.
    I beg to differ on "best damage output" build.
    How does 12d10+STR, per attack, at level _13_ sound to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crasical View Post
    I thought that HP gained from Eidolon Fusion was THP and thus lost first, meaning you never have that 'die from Hp dropping' effect like barbarians do? The fact that It's THP and not regular HP is what makes synthesist eidolons so hard to heal, in fact.
    It depends what your CON mod is, what your Eidolon's CON mod is, and how much HP you've given to your Eidolon through the Fused Link ability.

    If your CON is low, your Eidolon's CON is high, and you've drained most of your HP into your Eidolon, then yes, you can quite easily die when it goes away.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2012-09-02 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Right, I forgot about that build, probably because I see it as a bit broken.
    Also, it only comes around at level 13, my idea were more targeted at lower levels.
    Last edited by Andvare; 2012-09-02 at 04:46 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    However, there is nothing that prevents you from combining the two.

    With a half-elf Wildcaller, you get an extra evolution point for every other level (assuming you use the half-elf summoner favourite class feature each level).
    And you can get a +1 evolution point feat a couple of times as well.
    This is 9 more evolution points for your build at level 13, a total of 26 evolution points. Your build coast 19 evolution points (based on quadruped). 10 for huge + 4 for 4X slam + 4 for 2X arms + 1 for improved damage. Take pounce (the reason I took quadruped), and you still got 6 evolution points to play with. That is 6 extra arms, for example, for a grand total of 12 attacks (an extra iterative attack from your main hand, if you can find it, as you have 10 of them).
    This does require some feats. The improved natural attack, from your build, and multiweapon fighting, some light weapon feat (short sword for example, where short is just a word, there is nothing short about a gargantuan short sword) and preferably double slice. But you have 5 at this point, so you can still take some other silliness. One of them should probably be Critical Focus, so you can get staggering critical later. Weapon focus should probably the other, missing something with a slam attack ain't funny, and you do get a -2 on them, as they are (now) secondary attacks. Your to hit is only +16 at this point (+10 from a strength of 30, +10 from bab, - 2 from size and -2 from secondary attack or from multiweapon fighting), except one attack, which is at +11 (the single iterative attack), and this is not counting magical items.

    You do get the opportunity to take another slam attack at level 14, which would cost 3 evolution points (arms and slam attack), fortunately you can get three evolution points. You then have 3 more attacks. One slam attack, one extra arm you aren't using, so you might as well equip it with a weapon, and one from an extra iterative attack. Now you have 15 attacks on a charge or with a full-round attack (cryohydra, go do some bedroom athletics with yourself).

    Some damage for this build.
    Now this is assuming that we have been robbed and have no magical items except the wand of strong jaw, or the amount of iron used to make the 10 huge "short" swords have created an iron deficit, so all magic energy in the kingdom have gone to replenish it.
    We also assume we have cast both strong jaw and enlarge person beforehand.
    In an in-game situation (yeah, right, like that is ever gonna happen), you would have some boosts to strength. +4 at least, and probably more.

    The attacks:
    1 bite. 8d6 (effectively colossal+ size) +5 (sorry, only secondary attack).
    4 slam attacks. 12d10 (silly, but, hey, I didn't do this part) +5 (sorry, secondary, yeah, this is totally gimping the build).
    6 gargantuan short sword. 3d6 (I think) +10 (double slice)
    1 iterative short sword attack. 3d6 +10

    Let us put 'im up against the most iconic creature of D&D, the red dragon. The young adult version have an AC of 26, perfect for our build (50% hit chance is easy to use). This is including crits.

    So, 17,325 from bite, 149,1 from slam (huh? less than I expected), 67,65 for the swords and 5,6375 from the iterative attack. For a grand total of 240 (rounded). Now this is without DR, with DR it is significantly less. The red dragon has a DR of 5/magic, so without any other boosts, the damage would be around 210. Most of this is from slam, especially after the DR. The slam attacks would still be doing 139,1 on average, not enough to kill it alone though.

    Edit: Corrected the amount of evolution points. Not as fun now.
    Last edited by Andvare; 2012-09-02 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Andvare View Post
    Right, I forgot about that build, probably because I see it as a bit broken.
    Broken? Most definitely.

    RAW/RAI Legal? ALSO Most definitely

    The best part is that it doesn't even need Synthesist Shenanigans!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andvare View Post
    And you can get a +1 evolution point feat at each other level as well.
    This is 13 more evolution points for your build at level 13, or nearly double the standard amount, a total of 30 evolution points.
    You can only take the Extra Evolution feat once every 5 levels plus 1 (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th) so by level 13 you can only take it 3 times at the most. But you still have the +6 from Half-Elf/Wild Caller (+7 at level 14).

    Quote Originally Posted by Andvare View Post
    This does require some feats. The improved natural attack, from your build, and multiweapon fighting, some light weapon feat (short sword for example, where short is just a word, there is nothing short about a gargantuan short sword) and preferably double slice. But you have 5 at this point, so you can still take some other silliness.
    Don't forget Combat Reflexes. You have 10ft. Reach for being a Huge-Quad, and after the Level up bonuses and Size penalties are factored, you still have 15 DEX which will only keep increasing.

    As far as Weapons go, they are the Side-Show to the Main-Event-Slams.
    And since we need to take an actual Weapon Prof. Feat, we can do better than a Short Sword.
    We can either go Exotic Light and pick up some extra Abilities, or we can go 1 handed for better damage at a marginal loss of accuracy.
    NOTE: the MultiWeapon Fighting penalty only applies to the Weapon attacks, this could make for an odd situation where our "secondary" Natural attacks are at a -2 to-hit Penalty, but our "primary" Weapon attacks are at -4.
    Heck, can even use 2Handers for better returns on the Massive STR bonus, and they would better fit with the MAX DAMAGE theme.

    Exotic Light: Well, in order to Trip or Disarm properly, we'd need the "Improved" feats, which require Combat Expertise (not viable on an Eidolon) So Swordbreaker Daggers w/Sunder are the best option for Ability. Yeah, they do worse damage then a Short Sword, but the Slams are the damage, these can be utility. Another option would be Scorpion Whip for Range extension (disclaimer: ask you're DM how the heck Whip Proficiency is supposed to work with Scorpion Whips)

    Exotic 1-hand: Falcata base 1d8, 19-20/x3
    Rhoka, base 1d8, 18-20/x2
    Bastard Sword base 1d10, 19-20/x2.

    Exotic 2-hand: Dwarven Longhammer base 2d6, x3, Reach
    Fauchard base 1d10, 18-20/◊2, Reach

    Of course, given that these weapons are GINOURMOUS and there are MULTIPLES of them, then Cost-Wise we should go with either Wooden Stakes (light), Clubs (1-hand), or Quarterstaves (2-hand), as they are all FREE regardless of size

    Quote Originally Posted by Andvare View Post
    1 bite. 8d6 (effectively colossal+ size) +5 (sorry, only secondary attack).
    4 slam attacks. 12d10 (silly, but, hey, I didn't do this part) +5 (sorry, secondary, yeah, this is totally gimping the build).
    10 gargantuan short sword. 3d6 (I think) +10 (double slice)
    1 iterative short sword attack. 3d6 +10

    So, 17,325 from bite, 149,1 from slam (huh? less than I expected), 112,75 for the swords and 5,6375 from the iterative attack. For a grand total of 284,8125. Now this is without DR, with DR it is significantly less. The red dragon has a DR of 5/magic, so without any other boosts, the damage would be around 247. Most of this is from slam, especially after the DR. The slam attacks would still be doing 139,1 on average, not enough to kill it alone though.
    Your damage numbers seem off (even factoring in using "," being used as a Decimal and not a Thousandth's indicator).
    8d6+5 Bite, on average should do 8*3.5+5 = 33, divide by 2 for 50% accuracy => 16.5
    12d10+5 Slams, 12*5.5+5 = 71 > 50% accurate > 35.5 times 4 attacks => 142
    As for DR/Magic, we should be able to afford an Amulet of Might Fists for the Eidolon.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2012-09-02 at 06:28 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Broken? Most definitely.

    RAW/RAI Legal? ALSO Most definitely

    The best part is that it doesn't even need Synthesist Shenanigans!
    No argument.

    You can only take the Extra Evolution feat once every 5 levels plus 1 (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th) so by level 13 you can only take it 3 times at the most. But you still have the +6 from Half-Elf/Wild Caller (+7 at level 14).
    Solid human waste!
    Here I had a good thing going, and you kill it. Evil you.

    Don't forget Combat Reflexes. You have 10ft. Reach for being a Huge-Quad, and after the Level up bonuses and Size penalties are factored, you still have 15 DEX which will only keep increasing.
    Yeah I was thinking about that, but that is useful, I wasn't going for useful.

    As far as Weapons go, they are the Side-Show to the Main-Event-Slams.
    And since we need to take an actual Weapon Prof. Feat, we can do better than a Short Sword.
    We can either go Exotic Light and pick up some extra Abilities, or we can go 1 handed for better damage at a marginal loss of accuracy.
    NOTE: the MultiWeapon Fighting penalty only applies to the Weapon attacks, this could make for an odd situation where our "secondary" Natural attacks are at a -2 to-hit Penalty, but our "primary" Weapon attacks are at -4.
    Heck, can even use 2Handers for better returns on the Massive STR bonus, and they would better fit with the MAX DAMAGE theme.

    Exotic Light: Well, in order to Trip or Disarm properly, we'd need the "Improved" feats, which require Combat Expertise (not viable on an Eidolon) So Swordbreaker Daggers w/Sunder are the best option for Ability. Yeah, they do worse damage then a Short Sword, but the Slams are the damage, these can be utility. Another option would be Scorpion Whip for Range extension (disclaimer: ask you're DM how the heck Whip Proficiency is supposed to work with Scorpion Whips)

    Exotic 1-hand: Falcata base 1d8, 19-20/x3
    Rhoka, base 1d8, 18-20/x2
    Bastard Sword base 1d10, 19-20/x2.

    Exotic 2-hand: Dwarven Longhammer base 2d6, x3, Reach
    Fauchard base 1d10, 18-20/◊2, Reach

    Of course, given that these weapons are GINOURMOUS and there are MULTIPLES of them, then Cost-Wise we should go with either Wooden Stakes (light), Clubs (1-hand), or Quarterstaves (2-hand), as they are all FREE regardless of size
    I'll post a Kali build soon-ish

    Your damage numbers seem off (even factoring in using "," being used as a Decimal and not a Thousandth's indicator).
    8d6+5 Bite, on average should do 8*3.5+5 = 33, divide by 2 for 50% accuracy => 16.5
    12d10+5 Slams, 12*5.5+5 = 71 > 50% accurate > 35.5 times 4 attacks => 142
    As for DR/Magic, we should be able to afford an Amulet of Might Fists for the Eidolon.
    I'm Danish, and for some reason we use "," as a decimal. It late, and thus mistakes happens.

    The damage isn't off, at least I don't think it is, I just factored in the crit chance as well.

  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Now for a similar build, but without the slam cheese.

    Now 26 evolution points. Yeah, your half-elf will have little room for any other feat. But, face it, if you are a half-elf Wild Caller, you do play second fiddle to your eidolon. Just buff 'im, and stay out of his way.

    Still huge. That extra strength (16), extra damage and so on is too good to pass on. 10 points.
    Still pounce. You need to be able to use all attacks, or this build is down the drain. 1 point.
    Lotsa arms. As many as you can get, which is at this point 14. 14 points.
    1 point left. Pincers would be a nice addition. This also means that you get 3 natural attacks, which is nice, because you now can fully use the multiattack feat your eidolon gets for free.

    Still the same feats, except you you don't need improved natural attack, and we will use Aklys as the light weapon of choice. Partly because they do more damage (medium size damage is 1d8) and partly because they are silly.
    Also, the main hand will be a bastard sword (or dwarven waraxe, same average damage).

    So, damage.
    Still enlarged, but we will use Mighty Strength instead of Strong Jaw. Same spell level, though a cleric spell instead of a druid spell. It also has the same duration. It is an enhancement bonus, so when our half-elf finally gets his act together, and buys his eidolon a nice belt O' strength, it wont stack.

    Anyhoo, that gives us a to hit of +20, and a damage bonus of the aklys of +14 (+7 for the natural attacks).

    Bite is now 2d8 +7
    Pincers are also 2d8 +7
    Aklys are 4d6 (I think?) +14
    Bastard sword is 4d8 (I think?) +14
    Damage is 11.76 (1 bite) + 23.52 (2 pincers) + 267.54 (13 aklys) + 23.68 or 326.5.
    With the DR, it is reduced to 265. A note on the DR, the dragon's DR is only 5/magic, so all attacks that hits, actually damage the dragon. But higher DR might stop some of the attacks completely.
    Yeah, there is an iterative attack, but I couldn't be bothered. The extra damage would be around 16, or 13.5 with the DR.

    Now this seems like a higher number than with the slam attack, and it is , but it is misleading. You would also use some sort of strength enhancer on the other build. Without the extra strength, the damage is "only" 195 (ish). I suspect that what really hurts, is the lower to hit, and not the less damage.
    It is also quite expensive to equip your eidolon with 14 decent weapons. It would cost 28000 gp just to get +1 weapons, and it would be needed to get through the DR/magic that just gets more frequent and higher. If only the spell Greater Magic Weapon worked as the natural attack version did. It also lacks any ability to get through any other DR.

    What this does illustrate, I think, is that the Kali build is a potential insane damage build. It can, if it has a rich uncle that died, leaving it his collection of antique collectors magic aklys, kill two young adult red dragons each round! Of course, you would probably have to take a set of arms away to give it flying, but this is TO, not reality.
    The Kali build rules damage output for the first 5 levels or so, until DR becomes something that every BBEG and his neighbour has.

    An actual illustration though, of a quadruped with pincers on its feet, having 14 arms, wielding small hooked throwing clubs in all of them but, with all clubs tied to the quadruped with a 20ft. cord, and a claymore in the last hand, yeah, no...

    This build, as its arms increases in numbers, should slowly transform its name towards hundredhanded.

  8. - Top - End - #638
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    It's funny how the very limited evolution list of the Wild Caller actually leads to builds with a bigger focus on weapons...

    (Specifically magic attacks and energy attacks does this)

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I want to supersize my build.

    So I'm taking one level in cleric.
    I'm taking the Law domain (you can also take the sub domain Slavery, for Charm Person, or Tyranny, for Command). This grants me Touch of Law.
    For the second domain, I can take the Luck domain (very nice first level power), the Travel domain (more movement is always good, to keep the half-elf sidekick out of harms way), the Glory or Good/Agathion domain for Shield of Faith or the Good/Friendship domain for Protection from Evil and telepathy.

    Now, this only comes online at level 14, so let us be fair and put it up against the adult version.
    With Touch of Law, all but one attack, the iterative attack of course, connects. The damage is 16 (bite) +32 (2 pincers) +364 (13 aklys) +32 (main hand). For a grand total of 444, or 359 with the DR. Minimum damage is 279, or 194 with the DR (almost enough to kill it, needs 18 HP more, or in other words, with a Greater Magic Fang used before the attack, it will automatically kill it). With a DR of 10, the damage would be 274, still plenty to kill it, and then some. With a bit of luck, it can still kill it if it had a DR of 15 (average damage would be somewhere around 189, probably a little higher actually, 23 points short of the 212, again a simple Greater Magic Fang would do it). Now, at this point, the math does become a little complex, as some of the natural attacks that connects, don't cause any damage, and I have used the full amount of damage reduction each time the dragon was hit, and this isn't true at this point. It shouldn't be much though, just a couple of points.

    Of course, if it is up against the older, more mature, more sofisticated, better looking, wiser, Mature Adult Red Dragon, none of the attacks will connect*.

    The damage lost in the example of the previous post, is around 60, so the damage would be reduced to around 200 (with a DR of 10) and around 140 (with a DR of 15). This is still quite good for a build that is supposed to be completely shot down by damage reduction. It would still kill an Adamantine Golem in two/three turns.



    * Unless the eidolon charges or the dragon just have.
    Last edited by Andvare; 2012-09-03 at 07:03 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    ...and now my eidolon looks like a fluffy bunny. (Lv. 5 Half-Elf Wild caller building for Quad Pounce/Mount build) Even though it's damage output is second in our party only to the Half-Elf Paladin and his Curved Blade. <-- So many crits.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Stumbled across this thread earlier today and now I'm very intrigued...

    I wanted to ask one oddball question though, I hope that's OK >.<

    Assuming I'm playing a Summoner in an otherwise 3.5e game (as opposed to a primarily Pathfinder game), is it possible to take the Martial Stance and Martial Maneuver feats from Tome of Battle for the Eidolon? I mean, according to what I'm reading it seems to be so; but I'm not especially familiar with Summoners so there may be something I'm overlooking.

    I was specifically thinking Devoted Spirit's "Martial Spirit" stance, where each time you land a hit, you heal 2 points to yourself or an ally within 30 feet.

    In theory, with a high number of attacks, that could be pretty nice, especially since it's not only the Eidolon who could benefit from it.

    Is that workable or am I missing some key thing?
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by mistformsquirrl View Post
    Assuming I'm playing a Summoner in an otherwise 3.5e game (as opposed to a primarily Pathfinder game), is it possible to take the Martial Stance and Martial Maneuver feats from Tome of Battle for the Eidolon? I mean, according to what I'm reading it seems to be so; but I'm not especially familiar with Summoners so there may be something I'm overlooking.

    I was specifically thinking Devoted Spirit's "Martial Spirit" stance, where each time you land a hit, you heal 2 points to yourself or an ally within 30 feet.

    In theory, with a high number of attacks, that could be pretty nice, especially since it's not only the Eidolon who could benefit from it.

    Is that workable or am I missing some key thing?
    It should work fine. Martial Study/Stance don't really have any Pre-Reqs, so Eidolon's can take them no problem.
    Just keep in mind that the Eidolon's Initiator Level will be weird, as it is based on HD, and the Eidolon has 3/4 HD-ish.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by mistformsquirrl View Post
    Stumbled across this thread earlier today and now I'm very intrigued...

    I wanted to ask one oddball question though, I hope that's OK >.<

    Assuming I'm playing a Summoner in an otherwise 3.5e game (as opposed to a primarily Pathfinder game), is it possible to take the Martial Stance and Martial Maneuver feats from Tome of Battle for the Eidolon? I mean, according to what I'm reading it seems to be so; but I'm not especially familiar with Summoners so there may be something I'm overlooking.

    I was specifically thinking Devoted Spirit's "Martial Spirit" stance, where each time you land a hit, you heal 2 points to yourself or an ally within 30 feet.

    In theory, with a high number of attacks, that could be pretty nice, especially since it's not only the Eidolon who could benefit from it.

    Is that workable or am I missing some key thing?
    If ToB is open, then it should be able to take those feats.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Thank you both, that's excellent news <^_^>
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I dismissed my eidolon in order to summon an elemental to set off a trap we couldn't bypass. I then performed the ritual to bring back said eidolon but the DM stated that all my buffs, mainly mage armor that still had several hours to go, had to be recast. My thought was that the eidolon still exists on another plane and any spell casts on it don't just vanish because it temporarily returns to its home plane. Are there any rules that state whether or not this is the case.

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    smile Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Registered to thank you for this helpful guide!

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Has anyone ever considered making a ranged eidolon build?

    One idea would be to progress towards a flying serpent style Eidolon that uses a single huge composite longbow (from my understanding there is no maximum strength limitation; just an additional +100gp for each modifier increase). This would also allow you to ride the Eidolon where you can spend your actions buffing, protecting the eidolon, and controlling the battlefield

    One thing I noticed is for attacks using a single weapon you get the 1.5x STR mod with no melee-only restriction; I could quite possibly be overlooking something but this should mean the bow is fair game to abuse this.

    By flying (improved) you can hover above the battelfield out of melee reach. Using the shadow evolutions (or improved invisibility) you can grant concealment which should limit ranged attacks (as could the mounted combat feat on the summoner). Using your own actions to protect the eidolon/yourself (protection spells, dispel magic, etc...) could reduce the threat from magic attacks too.

    An interesting option for the bow is the Designating ability to allow the eidolon to add to the buffing you can already provide to the rest of the party.

    I'm not sure exactly how practical this strategy is but I thought I'd throw it out there and see what the playground can do with it.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrian View Post
    Has anyone ever considered making a ranged eidolon build?
    grarrrg's Gundolon is based on ranged with firearms, which he crossposted between this Handbook and my Gunslinger Handbook.

    Anyways, I don't think there's anything wrong with your idea, as it comes down to being basically a Ranged Slugger build. Serpentine I assume is so you can get the best Dex off the bat. Wings are certainly worthwhile, though you could just as easily pick up Skilled(Fly) to just make the skill check for hovering, especially if you size your Eidolon up for bigger bows. The issue with buffing strength with bows is that you have to build it to that strength, you can't do that afterwards. So once you increase Strength, you've obsoleted your bow. I think there's an enchantment or bow out there that adjusts to the user's Strength, just don't recall where.
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  19. - Top - End - #649
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I think I saw a build involving throwing. Daggers and Hammers. Not sure how viable though.
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  20. - Top - End - #650
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    grarrrg
    Yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    The issue with buffing strength with bows is that you have to build it to that strength, you can't do that afterwards. So once you increase Strength, you've obsoleted your bow. I think there's an enchantment or bow out there that adjusts to the user's Strength, just don't recall where.
    Well, there is a Feat for such, but good luck getting it allowed for your Eidolon.
    Noble Scion (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting version):
    "Whenever you use a composite Strength bow of your Strength bonus or lower, you deal +2 points of damage with it."

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    This guide has been a boon for ironing out my summoner, thanks! :)

    Actually my eidolon plans overlap a bit with what's been suggested above:

    I think there's an enchantment or bow out there that adjusts to the user's Strength, just don't recall where.
    Adaptable. It's in the PFSRD and costs only +1000 gp. A must-have enchantment for any archer who intends to increase STR later in the game, to avoid having to switch-out bows.

    One idea would be to progress towards a flying serpent style Eidolon that uses a single huge composite longbow
    Why huge? I've done some math on it and the large and huge evolutions for an archer eidolon is meh at best, certainly not worth the Evo points. You're getting plenty to hit minuses with Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot already, and such feats + free STR increases will ensure as good damage potential as most PC archers already. Medium is free, much more convenient in dungeons and allows for a size small rider. You also get better AC, Fly and Stealth as icing.

    One thing I noticed is for attacks using a single weapon you get the 1.5x STR mod with no melee-only restriction; I could quite possibly be overlooking something but this should mean the bow is fair game to abuse this.
    No, you're overlooking this (my emphasis)

    If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attackís type
    By flying (improved) you can hover above the battelfield out of melee reach. Using the shadow evolutions (or improved invisibility) you can grant concealment which should limit ranged attacks (as could the mounted combat feat on the summoner).
    Yeah, this is my idea for an Eidolon too.
    1) Use feats to focus on archery (starting with MWP: Longbow, then the PBS tree and Deadly Aim)
    2) Take Shadow Form for constant concealment (pseudo-HiPS) and Skilled:Stealth. Note that the melee damage reduction that balances Shadow Form is conveniently irrelevant for an archer eidolon.
    3) Make it a flying mount by 5th level. Now you always have cover (Ride skill) to use Stealth yourself, and your mount always has concealment (shadow form), and you auto-win against non-flying melee only threats. Plus you now ride a shadowy coatl-naga archer, which is cool.
    4) Particularly useful with Magic Jar. Your stealthy flying mount protects your limp body and the gem while you possess, fight and cast spells through expendable enemy bodies.
    5) With additional abilities like Scent and Skilled: Perception/Disable Device, your Eidolon can pretty much scout out the dungeon alone with very little risk to itself. Dismiss it from a distance if it gets into trouble (telepathic bond), cast invisibilty and send in your expendable augmented shock troop summons instead. Use Summon Eidolon for back-up, if needed (especially if you intend to cast debuffs that break invisibility to support your summons).
    6) When these bases are covered, I suggest adding the Web evolution for a good (Ex) debuff to go along with archery, especially to defeat Anti-Magic effects at a distance (can't fight those with most summons). Also improving on movement modes (Su-Flight, Burrow, Swim/Gills, and speed increases) are good investments for the build. Burrow is a strong answer to being grappled and lets your eidolon explore much more efficiently.

    As for my summoner, it will be a Halfling Stealth build taking SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning levels 1-5, then going into SF: Stealth and Hellcat Stealth levels 7-9 and getting Skilled:Stealth through Aspect at level 10 to counter the Hellcat Stealth penalty. Getting cover through my flying mount or using Invisibility will be my "HiPS" solution before mid levels. For high levels, I'm considering Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal, but I doubt the game will last that long.

    I want to make this PC PFS-legal, so most archetypes are unavailable to me. I haven't decided yet on "evolutionist or not evolutionist". The free Transmogrify is great, particularly with the Aspect ability, but since I expect to be mounted in about 1/3 of all mid-high level encounters, Greater Shield Ally is difficult to pass up too... Choices, choices.

    Comments on these build ideas are much appreciated, especially synergistic feat/eidolon build suggestions. The overall purpose is to eliminate any danger/risk to the summoner first, and minimize the risk to the eidolon, while using expendable summons for the high risk/lethality situations.

  22. - Top - End - #652
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    This question might have been answered in the previous 22 pages, but I honestly didn't comb through it.

    Synthesist Summoners' eidolons don't get any feats themselves. When a Synthesist Summoner uses Split Forms or Twin Eidolon, does the eidolon maintain any of the feats?

    Otherwise this sort of gimps the eidolon with these abilities. Granted, you do get 2 eidolons, but now your eidolon has no feats. You do, but your eidolon doesn't. Is this how it would work?

  23. - Top - End - #653
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hello,

    I recall a user who had a link in his signature, to a list of all the SLAs you gained acces to, through summon monster, but i can't seem to find it anymore. Does anyone have a clue what im talking about?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Probably not the same source, but I can point you to a resource which will accomplish the same thing.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hBk/edit?pli=1
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    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Private View Post
    This question might have been answered in the previous 22 pages, but I honestly didn't comb through it.

    Synthesist Summoners' eidolons don't get any feats themselves. When a Synthesist Summoner uses Split Forms or Twin Eidolon, does the eidolon maintain any of the feats?

    Otherwise this sort of gimps the eidolon with these abilities. Granted, you do get 2 eidolons, but now your eidolon has no feats. You do, but your eidolon doesn't. Is this how it would work?
    However your DM says it works.

    This is about item #97 on the "list of Synthesist things not really covered by the rules".
    You'll also want to know what Mental-stats the Eidolon has, it's or yours, as it 'might' wind up not qualifying for a feat or two, and there are some spells/abilities that target Mental Scores. At the least you need to know its WIS for Will-Save.

  26. - Top - End - #656
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I just stated playing as a summoner and was wondering g about how natural attacks work. My edelon has gore claws and tail slap. Can it use all three attacks in one turn? Use the claws as primary and the others as secondary?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarren View Post
    I just stated playing as a summoner and was wondering g about how natural attacks work. My edelon has gore claws and tail slap. Can it use all three attacks in one turn? Use the claws as primary and the others as secondary?
    It can use all its natural attacks in a full attack, yes, provided you don't exceed the Natural Attack Limit that Eidolons specifically have, which is on the Eidolon advancement table. Also note that in PF, Natural Attacks listed as Primary are always Primary, regardless of whether you have more than one.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Also, do note that natural attacks are limited to one attack per natural weapon and one natural weapon used per limb.

    So in the example listed, the eidolon can make up to 4 attacks: 1 gore, 2 claws and 1 tail slap.

    For an expanded example, let's say it also has a bite attack, it's now 1 gore or bite, 2 claws and 1 tail slap.

  29. - Top - End - #659
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    a couple of things.

    from the advanced race guide assimars have a favored class boost that can give an eidolon DR/evil thought it would be worth a mention to put in the guide.

    also a rather odd question, if you have an eidolon with anything except the biped base form and you give it arms, presumably turning it into a tauric creature, what size weapons, assuming it is wielding a manufactured weapon, does it use? the reason i ask is because a centaur is a large creature but uses medium sized weapons because the human torso bit is medium sized, same with a lillend, large creature, medium weapons because the humanoid bit is medium.

    just a thought.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    From the SRD

    Centaur

    Source: Ultimate Magic

    The eidolon has the upper torso of a humanoid and the lower body of a quadruped (such as a horse). A centaur eidolonís upper humanoid torso is smaller than its quadrupedal body. As a result, it wields weapons as if it were one size category smaller than its actual size (Medium for most centaur eidolons). The centaur model can also be used to create a lamia (a centaur eidolon with the upper body of a woman and the lower body of a lion) by replacing the hooves evolution with claws and taking basic magic (touch of fatigue), minor magic (ventriloquism), major magic (daze monster), and ultimate magic (major image), resulting in a 23-point model.
    (emphasis added)

    But, this is just an example of a concept eidolon. Nothing in the actual rules preceding those hypothetical examples states this.

    I see no reason why a centaurish eidolon cannot have a larger (medium) torso on a medium (smaller than average for a horse) lower half. It just couldn't pass as an actual centaur.

    As always seems to be the case, anything with eidolon should be cleared with the DM. Frankly, if the centaur with medium weapons is overshadowing everyone, I'd knock the weapons down to small. Otherwise, I'd let it be.
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