[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[mistformsquirrl]

Oh, duh, I forgot to put the Belt on >_> But that's no matter, DM has veto'd the belt after looking over the sheet. (Thanks for catching that though!)

[grarrrg]

Hah, very nice idea there grarrrg! I'm probably going to stick to the crossbows for a couple reasons (easier to get them approved, and also not wanting to go Syntheist*) - but that's a really interesting build there, and a contradiction to the usual wisdom of "Never multiclass a summoner".

I look at the Gundolon like this: It does _SO_ many things wrong that it winds up being right.

An honest Summoner multi-classing? Check.
Going with a Small Eidolon? Check.
Using non-light weapons in a Multi-weapon build? Check.
There are a few more, but these are the bigger ones.

[mistformsquirrl]

Hehe, just shows you can find an exception to just about every rule <^_^>b

[Sengachi]

On Using Summoners to Smash the Sound Barrier into Oblivion

First things first. Any archetype (or lack thereof) of Summoner can break the sound barrier. However, there are two archetypes recommended for doing so. Evolutionists can work well with this, as they can respec their Eidolon so they aren't always stuck with a minion who can do nothing but move really fast. Synthesist Summoners also work with this speed build, because they can personally break the sound barrier without having to go through the incredibly hazardous process of strapping oneself to a creature moving past the sound barrier.

*Speed of sound is between 300~330 m/s depending on elevation. This is 5900~6500 ft/rd.

So how do we do this? By exploiting the Flight ability of Eidolons. The eidolon's fly speed can be increased by spending additional evolution points, gaining a 20-foot increase to fly speed for each additional point spent. Note the utter lack of a maximum speed put on that ability. We are going to exploit this.

First we need every available evolution point. We start with the special half-elf racial for 5 extra evo points at lv 20 (let's assume we have some mad level 20 doing this). 26 evo points for being lv 20. 4 evo points for four Extra Evolution feats. Finally, we use Greater Evolution Surge. We spend both 4 point evolutions on even more speed.

What do we have so far? Well, we spend two points on getting flight, and then the remaining 41 points on an additional 820 ft/rd.

Now what? Spend either a feat or your Eidolon's feat (Evolutionist vs. Synthesist) on Run. Then buy a scroll of polymorph. You'll be using this to turn yourself/your Eidolon into a quickling. If you're an evolutionist you'll have to spend two evo points giving your Eidolon magical flight so that they can use it while polymorphed. Quicklings have a base speed of 120 ft/rd, which will do wonders for your total speed. Next up is Expeditious Retreat or Haste, for the extra 30ft/rd.

The rest of the feats. If you're a Synthesist, spend your 5 remaining feats on Fleet, or your Eidolon's 7 remaining feats if you're an Evolutionist, for an extra 25/35 ft/rd.

So far our Synthesist has 995 ft/rd, 4975 ft/rd while running and our Evolutionist has 965 ft/rd, 4825 ft/rd while running. This is awesome, but still not enough. Here's where we pull out all the stops.

Get a scroll of Blessing of Fervor. This will add 30 ft/rd to your speed. Slap an Aspect of the Stag scroll on top of that for 20ft/rd. Follow up with Slipstream for 10ft/rd (we'll assume you're not moving downhill).

And now we just break everything. Get a Helm of Underwater Action. This allows you to move freely in water. Grab a Juvenile Bronze Dragon, slap Reduce on it, stuff it in a portable hole and give it an air tube. Make it use its ability that grants x2 speed in water. Submerge yourself partway in the ocean.

Commence sonic boom at 10550 ft/rd (536 m/s) if you're a Synthesist Summoner, 10250 ft/rd (521 m/s) if you're an Evolutionist.

Oh, and if your DM will let you get Boots of Epic Speed from 3.5, those double your speed without having to deal with pesky dragons.

If you can get the boots and the dragon, top speed (if you're not going downhill) is 21100 ft/rd (1072 m/s) as a Synthesist Summoner. Also known as Mach 3.25~3.57. Speed is king.

If anyone can add improvements to this, please do. If we can get this monstrosity past Mach 4 I will give everyone imaginary interwebs cookies.

[Andvare]

Which is better bipedal or quadruped eidolon for utility

For a utility build, the bipedal is probably better early on, as it has arms, and you have few evolution points to spend, while later on, with more points to spare so you can get arms without sacrificing points that would go into needed skills, the quadruped makes it the superior choice (faster, mount, better dex).

On Using Summoners to Smash the Sound Barrier into Oblivion

The Wild Caller half-elf archetype gives a fair bit of extra evolution points, 5 at level 20, so 100 feet-per-round extra base speed flying.

[Propagandalf]

This handbook was really helpful when I built my first summoner!

I went with the synthetist summoner "gnome in a mecha" approach. Been working like a clockwork.

We're now entering level 11 in our Serpent's Skull campaign.

One thing I've noticed is the (already mentioned) slightly poorer action economy of the synthetist from mid levels onward since I'm both the heavy hitter and the buffer. Still, with the current str of 33 I'm not complaining overmuch.

So thanks for the awesome handbook!

[nategar05]

Sengachi, nice plan. The only problem that I see is that you can't use Evolution Surge to increase flight speed:

This spell causes your eidolon to take on new characteristics.

You can grant the eidolon any evolution whose total cost does not exceed 2 evolution points. You may only grant one evolution with this spell, even if that evolution can be taken multiple times.

You can grant an evolution that allows you to spend additional evolution points to upgrade that evolution. This spell cannot be used to grant an upgrade to an evolution that the eidolon already possesses. The eidolon must meet any prerequisites of the selected evolution. This spell does not allow an eidolon to exceed its maximum number of natural attacks.

===

As far as increasing speed with your character:

1. Convince your DM to run a Gestalt campaign.
2. Gestalt with a Monk.
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!

[Shadowfang]

Sengachi, I really love such crazy build ideas (although this would be absolutely impractical in acutal gameplay, I guess). But as a more theoretical approach it is really funny to think this through.

If you can get the boots and the dragon, top speed (if you're not going downhill) is 21100 ft/rd (1072 m/s) as a Synthesist Summoner. Also known as Mach 3.25~3.57. Speed is king.

Let's assume the Eidolon weighs around 100 kg and reaches the topspeed of 1072 m/s. This would mean the Eidolon has a kinetic energy of ~ 57 Megajoule on Impact (1/2mv^2). This would correspond to the amount of energy of ~12kg of TNT.... who needs fireballs/meteorshowers! And after impact you can resummon the Eidolon per Summon Eidolon spell and bombard the next target :D
SEM - Supersonic Eidolon Missile

[Kin]

Does anyone have any experience with a 'Kali' style Synthesist?

I'm trying to decide on going with a half-elf character that focuses on getting the most evolution points possible -- Half-Elf + Wild Caller + ???

Q: Will Wild Caller hurt me too much -- no DR, no Immunity, No Dimension Door (wand it?). I don't really care about the rest of the stuff.

Alternatively, I am considering a 'thief'. Kali build as well (so many many hands to pick pockets with) . [The thought of a halfling with 10 hands, encased in a shadowy eidelon darkness intrigues me.]

Q: Can you be a skill character as a Synthesist though?
Q: Is there anything special halflings get for sneaky-ness? (Aside from being small and the inherent bonus that brings.)

"The [fused] eidolon has no skills or feats of its own." So I cannot rely on splitting skills between myself and my eidolon. You can still spend evolution points to get hefty bonuses though, reducing your combat effectiveness.

Q: Are there any good reference guides on what feats to take as a Synthesist?

Clearly, Multi-weapon Fighting and Double Slice (if allowed). Possibly Combat casting... not sure what else. More evolution points? Blood lines? Really not sure what would be worth it.

I was imagining either short swords, kukri's, or any other interesting light weapons.

[Grasharm]

It's been a few days and no one else has posted anything so I guess I'll give it a shot.

Will Wild Caller hurt me too much -- no DR, no Immunity, No Dimension Door (wand it?). I don't really care about the rest of the stuff.

You can't be a wildcaller and a synthesist. They are both archetypes for summoner so it's one or the other. So that should end that problem for you. To me the biggest loss as a wildcaller isn't the evolutions you can't get it's the trade out of summon natures ally for summon monster. Those summons are your blast potential. You can't cast a lighting bolt but at 9th level you can summon a Bralani that can toss out two 6 die lighting bolts giving you 12 l.bolt dice per use of this ability and a few heals and blur tossed into the mix for good measure if you don't have your big guy around or in the case of your syth. around you.

Q: Can you be a skill character as a Synthesist though?
yes. but it's harder than if you have a separate eidolon since you loose all the eidolons skill ranks and you can't take fast learner to get extra skill ranks for both you and extra evo points. not that I'm sure you can. I think elf blooded works to meat the human requirement but not sure. Take it up with a rules guru. You can still take skilled evolution though so the skills that you do have rock and if you can take faster learner and improv. Then the racial +8 from skilled stacked with improv +2 will give you a flat +10 on any skill roll that you can improve to +12 with improved improv.

Are there any good reference guides on what feats to take as a Synthesist?
Actually I think there is one earlier in this thread. Your gonna have to search for it though and I find "good" feats to be rather subjective. Tell us what you want and we can recommend feats that will help you get there.

If your half elf already you get adaptability which can fast track you into bloodlines. Choose plane as your free skill focus and get fire/efreti eldrich heritage. The ray gives you a "spell" attack which you wont get from summoner admittedly a rather weak one. Same with the fireball and such. When you get higher level the +30 base move translates you your other move modes as a fused summoner as well as you land move. This is good since getting into meele is a big thing for you.

Like I said fast learner and improve is good.
If your just a "back-up" fighter there to do damage you could do worse than going the combat reflex, bodyguard, in harms way to soak a few hits from you main wall of meat and you will give time +2 AC most of the time to boot.

That's the best I can do without knowing where you want to go.

Hope this helped.

[Kin]

Thanks for the response. We have a rather large group including a Sorcerer, Magus (Bladebound), Paladin (Holy Gun), Rogue (Swashbuckler), a Monk, and an Inquisitor NPC. All starting at level 1.

I'm not too familiar with the other classes -- particularly the Magus or Inquisitor. (New to pathfinder). That said, if the paladin is a ranged gunner, that leaves a whole lot of squishies. Or are Magus well armored? Regardless, the party appears to need either a) Ranged DPS or b) Tank.

I'd consider the gundolon, but that would probably be stepping on the Holy Gun's toes a tad much. So I figured a tank would be better.

I am not sure which does more damage -- natural weapons, or manufactured weapons (with many arms). I could see going either way.

• Quadruped: pounce build (think Naruto + Xenomorph) with Hell Cat stealth.
• Biped: Kali build (10 armed half-elf) [Sadly, no pounce ]

For RP reasons, I am leaning towards a Winged Kali build. I want to have my Eidelon on all the time. Walking around the city as a giant quadrupedal murder machine might make people scared... A celestial looking half-elf with feathery wings and lots of arms would probably be more interesting than terrifying. {Speaking of which, are there any Celestials that look like that by default?}

Feats:

• Multiweapon Fighting - only take a -2 penalty on all those attacks... Yes Please.
• Double Slice - Do more damage in STR bonus alone than my actual weapon does.
• Resilient Eidolon - Can your eidelon heal or resurrect you? Because that could be interesting. Regardless, buys the party some time to save you before Eidolon goes POOF.
• Vigilant Eidolon - +4 to +8 perception. Combine with evolution for +12-16 to perception. Take Scent evolution too wolverine.
• Quick Draw - so you can get all those weapons out quickly, though probably better on an item if you can get it.

Other Ideas/Thoughts:

• Hellcat Stealth - get out of trouble to heal up.
• Dazing Assault - would this use Eidelon BAB for the DC? So many chances to daze.
• Eldritch Heritage - (Arcane) Familiar with UMD + Wands.. Hey my action economy is back! [May need Improved Familiar + Evolved Familiar as well.]
• Extra Item Slot - ... I can wear armor? [Does Eidolon count as non-humanoid body shape?]

I'm actually quite curious about those last two. What sort of familiars can use wands? What sort of spells can you put in them? Is it worth doing?

I really don't think the Extra Item Slot would work... but I don't know. Technically, you can take Power Attack even if you don't have the STR -- as long as you have the STR in your Eidolon form. So if the Eidolon form counts as a non-humanoid form... Technically...

On a final note: do I understand Multiweapon fighting correctly. 1 extra attack per weapon. So, at level 20, using an Eidelon's BAB of 20... you would do main-hand (4 attacks), from BAB 16+, plus 1 attack per extra hand (9 attacks), plus haste (1 attack) = 14 attacks per round. That is assuming a 10 handed Eidelon.

[Grasharm]

I'm just going to pick apart your last post and post my thoughts on each thing. In a good way. Damn you Negima!?!

I'm not too familiar with the other classes -- particularly the Magus

Basically the duskblade from 3.5 PHB II. A fight MU hybrid that starts with light armor and progresses in both armor and spells as he goes up in levels. Higher levels can wear heavy armor and cast spells on par with a bard with more focus on damge over buff and no nice bard cure spell (though does get vamp touch so can heal himself at later levels. In a good way.)

or Inquisitor. (New to pathfinder).

Basically a paladin that trades healing subset for better battlefield control and Damage to make him a better meat sheild.

Or are Magus well armored?

They start out in light armor and as they progress they get class features that upgrade it to heavy armor by the high levels.

Regardless, the party appears to need either a) Ranged DPS

Grrr just call it ranged damage. We are role players. We do not measure damage output "per second" but point taken. This is going to be the area you are light in. because....

b) Tank.

You have an inquisitor. Medium Armor only a feat away from heavy and since he's a divine caster no reason not to take the feat and a Magnus that is the same except he can't get heavy with a feat he has to get it through class feature advancement or suffer arcane spell failure chance, iIt advances in a way to keep it relevent throughout the careere of a Magnus though, so not that much of a debuff.

I am not sure which does more damage -- natural weapons, or manufactured weapons (with many arms). I could see going either way.

Almost always natural due to stacking effects. Start with 1d8 (med. slam) -> add improved natural feat -> add improved attack evo. -> add large then huge evolutions at later levels -> add Enlarge person = ?!?! PROFIT! Kali technically can do better but you'd be so broke from the types of weapons you need to buy to keep up with that for each arm that it is almost impossible.

Quadruped: pounce build (think Naruto + Xenomorph) with Hell Cat stealth.

Also Don't forget the Dimensional Assalt feat tree for this. Charge! Bamph! Attack! Hide!

Biped: Kali build (10 armed half-elf) [Sadly, no pounce ]

Check back one or two pages and see the posts myself and another exchanged on a ranged Kali.

For strait damage I'd say pounce is more damage but kali will have more options. Esp considering how crowded your front line is already with both the inquisitor and magus going to want to toe to toe on the other hand with three of you up there the gang up feat becomes very nice for everyone.

For RP reasons, I am leaning towards a Winged Kali build. I want to have my Eidelon on all the time. Walking around the city as a giant quadrupedal murder machine might make people scared... A celestial looking half-elf with feathery wings and lots of arms would probably be more interesting than terrifying. {Speaking of which, are there any Celestials that look like that by default?}

The do it. I always say RP trumps crunch. There are always ways to give you the edge. This is a definte oppinion and play style point though so will vary from person to person.

Feats:

Multiweapon Fighting - only take a -2 penalty on all those attacks... Yes Please.
Double Slice - Do more damage in STR bonus alone than my actual weapon does.
Resilient Eidolon - Can your eidelon heal or resurrect you? Because that could be interesting. Regardless, buys the party some time to save you before Eidolon goes POOF.

Yes it can but I don't think it works for a sythisist. check with a rules guru or better yet your GM since he is the ultimate authority on rules desputes in your game.

Vigilant Eidolon - +4 to +8 perception. Combine with evolution for +12-16 to perception. Take Scent evolution too wolverine.
Quick Draw - so you can get all those weapons out quickly, though probably better on an item if you can get it.

I think quick draw worth the feat if you have it to spare. After all you never want to be subject to the vagrancies of a GM who gives you a great new weapon for you but didn't put quick draw on it and as a Kali your going to want to grab all the hand me down weapons you can from your team-mates upgrading gear. Otherwide keeping up with weapon costs is almost impossible.

Other Ideas/Thoughts:

Hellcat Stealth - get out of trouble to heal up.
Dazing Assault - would this use Eidelon BAB for the DC? So many chances to daze.
Eldritch Heritage - (Arcane) Familiar with UMD + Wands.. Hey my action economy is back! [May need Improved Familiar + Evolved Familiar as well.]
Extra Item Slot - ... I can wear armor? [Does Eidolon count as non-humanoid body shape?]

No, and either way Mage Armor does not need a feat to use and works pretty good. Just designate all your eidolon armor as comoing from natural armor. Also you share slots with your eidolon so you wear the armor and the eidolon gains the benifits I think. Again check with GM/ rules guru.

I'm actually quite curious about those last two. What sort of familiars can use wands? What sort of spells can you put in them? Is it worth doing?

You need improved familiar feat but I like mephits for this kind of thing. And since they are humanoid they can wear all the gear without putting feats into extra item slots.

I really don't think the Extra Item Slot would work... but I don't know. Technically, you can take Power Attack even if you don't have the STR -- as long as you have the STR in your Eidolon form. So if the Eidolon form counts as a non-humanoid form... Technically...

Nope does not work because extra item slot only allows you to wear items you couldn't wear normally. Since you can wear all items normally there is nothing to apply this feat to unless you get a familiar and apply it to the familiar and like I said, Mephits can wear pretty much any small gear anyway.

On a final note: do I understand Multiweapon fighting correctly. 1 extra attack per weapon. So, at level 20, using an Eidelon's BAB of 20... you would do main-hand (4 attacks), from BAB 16+, plus 1 attack per extra hand (9 attacks), plus haste (1 attack) = 14 attacks per round. That is assuming a 10 handed Eidelon.

Yes you understand it correctly. It's what makes Kali-types so desireable. It gets around the Max # of attacks limitation built into Summoner but balances out by either taking up all your money to equip all those hands or having the damage per hand fall far behind your normal max. For instance one Kali ranged type I have with a Gnome dagger thrower that has gone broke just putting returning and elemental damage on all his daggers so that he can throw them multiple times without worrying about the ammo costs that where driving him broke with darts. In short a Kali type is all about money, money, and more money! After all to equip your theoretical Kali type's 10 hands with just ten +1 light maces of frost is: 3k (masterwork*10) + 50 (light mace*10) + 80k (+2 weapons*10) = 83,050 gp. or the slightly MORE money than the ENITIRE budget for a starting 11th level character.

[Uriain]

I have a question about an Eidolon that I think would be fun to try but don't fully understand something.

If you take a serpintine body, give yourself Grab, Constrict and Swallow Whole, you can only use these attacks on creatures 1 size smaller than yourself. If you get improved/greater Grapple you can grapple ANY opponent.

Does this make the "Grab/Constrict/Swallow Whole" line of attacking useless in late game?. My idea was to have a "Fire Sand Wyrm" style creature which can burrow and grapple from below to eat people.

If I DID make this build, would it also be a good idea to get the grapple feats to aid my grapple rolls?

Thanks in advance Golbin summoner for the fire evo's ftw!!

[Cieyrin]

I have a question about an Eidolon that I think would be fun to try but don't fully understand something.

If you take a serpintine body, give yourself Grab, Constrict and Swallow Whole, you can only use these attacks on creatures 1 size smaller than yourself. If you get improved/greater Grapple you can grapple ANY opponent.

Does this make the "Grab/Constrict/Swallow Whole" line of attacking useless in late game?. My idea was to have a "Fire Sand Wyrm" style creature which can burrow and grapple from below to eat people.

If I DID make this build, would it also be a good idea to get the grapple feats to aid my grapple rolls?

Thanks in advance Golbin summoner for the fire evo's ftw!!

They're not useless, it heavily depends on what your average enemy's size is. Grab and company is meant to expedite the grappling process but only when you can do it to smaller creatures, which makes the Large (and Huge, when you can upgrade) a must, as well as Enlarge Person to pump your Eidolon's size to the biggest it can be, which also increases your Grapple bonus. It is a good idea to pick up the grapple feats if you're focused on grabbing and devouring enemies, especially if you want to do it all in one round via Greater and Rapid Grapple.

[Uriain]

They're not useless, it heavily depends on what your average enemy's size is. Grab and company is meant to expedite the grappling process but only when you can do it to smaller creatures, which makes the Large (and Huge, when you can upgrade) a must, as well as Enlarge Person to pump your Eidolon's size to the biggest it can be, which also increases your Grapple bonus. It is a good idea to pick up the grapple feats if you're focused on grabbing and devouring enemies, especially if you want to do it all in one round via Greater and Rapid Grapple.

Awesome, I am glad to hear it is still somewhat viable. Three other quick questions for you

1) Does it make sense to pump up a grab/constrict on the tail as well?
2) How well would intimidate work with this constrictor build?
3) Does it make sense to grab as many "Improved Natural Armor" evo's as I can?

Thank you very much for your comments so far, I really appreciate the insight. Normally I am "the barbarian" guy, so I am trying to find a fun role to fill while still being functional to a party.

[Grasharm]

1) Does it make sense to pump up a grab/constrict on the tail as well?
2) How well would intimidate work with this constrictor build?
3) Does it make sense to grab as many "Improved Natural Armor" evo's as I can?

1) Not really. Since Grab is tied to a type of attack and not a specific attack the math just isn't there. After buying attack and then re-buying the grab and constrict evos for a tail slam you could have bought another head with bite and probably given them reach to boot and the evos you bought in the first place still apply to the new head. Add in that you will probably at some point take improved natural attack feat for your bite and things just keep stacking against this and onto specializing in one type of attack.

2)As well as it would with any other build. As far as I know there is no plus or minus to intimidate inherent in this. Your GM might give you something as a circumstance mod. if you swallow a bunch of his friends then try to intimidate but that's up to the gm.

3)That's a sticky wicket. I say yes. Even at high levels in pathfinder most things you fight regularly should only have a +30 or so to hit and if your designating all the armor bonus from your eidolon as coming from nat armor so it can benifit from mage armor then your eidolons AC should be around 30 as well before improved nat armor. In which case each improve = a 10% miss chance. The Naysayers will point out at high levels that all your doing is moving the miss chance from just a nat 1 to a 1,2,or 3 and that can be easily negated if the creature picks up a magic weapon. charges, or finds a flanking buddy.

Lastly I'd like to point out something to you that may be a bit of a comfort. You rechoose your evolutions every level. If something isn't working out you can always change it next level. In mid to high levels you also get access to the transmogrify spell so you don't even have to wait till a higher level.

[JadePhoenix]

You can't be a wildcaller and a synthesist. They are both archetypes for summoner so it's one or the other.

That's not exactly right. You can have two archetypes. The thing is, both Wild Caller and Synthesist change your Eidolon class feature, so you can't take both by RAW. I think it fits thematically and would allow a player to do that in my games, though.

[Uriain]

I have a bit of a 'hard left turn' question here about ranged Eidolon's.

My party composition changed drastically at the last min, so I am looking to help keep a bit of balance. We are currently running for an evil campaign (Way of the Wicked) Tiefling Divination Wizard, Myself (Damphire Summoner) Half-Orc Inquisitor, Drow Ranger, and Human fighter. We are all starting off at level 1 for a medium progression campaign

I want to make a multi-armed Longbow Eidolon which I can use essentially as a "cluster" of damage dealers to fire multiple shots down range. I figure Liberal use of Haste will be handy for this as well.

Could I get a critique of this 1-5 level build I have planned for ranged Kali build. 2 things to note; 1) I haven't chosen an arch type at this time (still humming and hawing over it) and 2) there is no access to fire arm's in this campaign. I will put Summoner Feats and full Eidolon build

Level 1:
Summoner feat - Extra Evolution
Serpintine Eidolon; Evolution - Limbs (arms), Ability increase Dex
Skills - Climb (1), Escape Artist (1), Fly (1), Perception (1)
Feats - Martial Weapon Proficiency - Longbow **

(I am using herolab to build this, but it seems weird that I can take a proficiency without having to have simple/martial weapon proficiency's... is this doable?)

Level 2:
Serpintine Eidolon; Evolution - Limbs (arms), Ability increase Dex
Skills - Climb (1), Escape Artist (2), Fly (2), Perception (2), Acrobatics (1)
Feats - Martial Weapon Proficiency - Longbow **

Level 3:
Serpintine Eidolon; Evolution - Limbs (arms), Limbs (arms), Ability increase Dex
Skills - Climb (1), Escape Artist (3), Fly (3), Perception (3), Acrobatics (2)
Feats - Martial Weapon Proficiency - Longbow **, Point Blank Shot

Level 4:
Serpintine Eidolon; Evolution - Limbs (arms), Limbs (arms), Limbs (arms), Ability increase Dex
Skills - Climb (1), Escape Artist (3), Fly (3), Perception (3), Acrobatics (2)
Feats - Martial Weapon Proficiency - Longbow **, Point Blank Shot

Level 5:
Summoner feat - Extra Evolution
Serpintine Eidolon; Evolution - Limbs (arms), Limbs (arms), Limbs (arms), Ability increase Dex, Flight (Wings)
Attribute Increase - Dexterity
Skills - Climb (1), Escape Artist (4), Fly (4), Perception (4), Acrobatics (3)
Feats - Martial Weapon Proficiency - Longbow **, Point Blank Shot

This was my plan so far. While flight might not always be useful, I do know there are battles in large open spaces, so thought it would be interesting to have a flying archer around. I went quickly for my multi-arm so I could get as many shots down range early on as I could.

Any feed back would be most appreciated thanks

[Grasharm]

First off yes you can just buy longbow prof. with a feat. No problem there. I always recommend a one handed weapon that you can get strength damage with easily for a Kali build though.

You need multiweapon fighting asap. Otherwise you take full penalties for fighting with multiple weapons. Also slings and darts are light so you take less penalties using them like this. Slings are esp. good since you can enchant the sling and it will give it's properties to any stone put in it. and a wand of magic stone is a cheap easy way to increase a slinger eidolons damage output. Just a few thoughts. Also most people go with biped for Kali because of free arms. Two more attacks is a fair trade for The dex I think.

If you go slings or darts keep in mind for 2 evo. points you can get simple weapon prof. and push off using one of your precious early feats on a weapon prof.

damage wise with three limbs(arms) evolutions
Longbow built to +4 str.- a possible 3d8+12 (15-36)

dart/sling assuming an 18 str. -a possible 6d4+24 (30-48)

sling/w. magic stone assuming an 18 str.- a possible 6d6+30 (36-66)

[grarrrg]

You need multiweapon fighting asap. Otherwise you take full penalties for fighting with multiple weapons.

Agreed.

Also most people go with biped for Kali because of free arms. Two more attacks is a fair trade for The dex I think.

Not agreed.

There is no limit on how many times you can take the Limbs (Arms) evolution.
There is a limit on Ability Increase.

Both cost the same (2 evo).

Biped has 1-Arms and 12 DEX.
Serpentine has 0-Arms and 16 DEX.

So the Serpentine is already up 2 Evo points worth of Arms/DEX.
Added bonus, the Biped loses the use of it's default Claws while holding a weapon. The Serpentine can still use its Bite/Tail Slap, either at -5 with a Full-Attack, or for AoO's. Even better, the Bite has Reach making AoO's even more handy.

Serpentine all the way.

[Grasharm]

Biped has 1-Arms and 12 DEX. and 16 str.
Serpentine has 0-Arms and 16 DEX. 12 str.

Since I'm advocating taking advantage of str. it's not just one or the other so it washes. I'd even say str. is a little more important for greater damage given that in the levels we are dealing with you shouldn't run into too much with a crazy high AC bonus. So no evo. points are being lost by having to buy up stats. If fact once you hit 2nd level I'd consider dropping dex increase. 2 evo points for +1 to hit and ac isn't worth the price of admission. You get more out of the extra attacks. Keep it at first level to qualify for multiattack though.

As for AOO argument we are going for a ranged build. If you getting AOOs things are hitting the fan and perhaps you should consider swapping to melee backups anyway. Of course since I'm advocating thrown weapons to get str. damage the range increment is greatly diminished so actually you will get AOO opportunities more often since you will want to stand closer. Either keep a hand throwing daggers or you could go serpent for reach AOOs but that still seems a little low yield given you only get one AOO a turn and then only if the enemy provokes whereas two extra arms will give you two extra attacks every time.

Lastly I will admit some prejudice against serpent. I dislike the 20 ft. base move rate but if you do decide on serpent and going with two handed alternatives like longbow you could do worse than looking into light repeating crossbows. multiple rounds of shots without reload. Good damage. Counts as light for multi-wielding but after 5 rounds the mag.s empty and your will spend two full rounds reloading and expensive.

Also I need to correct myself from earlier. Slings may be one handed but they are are two handed reload so they are off the table as far as one handed missile weapons goes. So darts or enchanted peebles from magic stone.and Javelins on main hand. Not light so if used in off hand can cause problem but one handed

Anyway this is a stylistic point. Do you want to do bigger hits or hit more often. My experience is that bigger hits usually work better but yours may be different.

[grarrrg]

Biped has 1-Arms and 12 DEX. and 16 str.
Serpentine has 0-Arms and 16 DEX. 12 str.

Since I'm advocating taking advantage of str. it's not just one or the other so it washes....

Fair enough.
I was leaning more towards the "using longbow" approach, in which case the Multiweapon Penalties are kinda harsh (-4 each attack), so To-Hit is VERY much appreciated.
If going with (1-hand) Thrown weapons, Biped seems to be the way to go.
If going with Bows/Firearms, then Serpentine has an advantage.

As for AOO argument we are going for a ranged build. If you getting AOOs things are hitting the fan and perhaps you should consider swapping to melee backups anyway.

It's not so much the "you want a good AoO" as it is "being able to make one is nice". Especially as the Serpentine gets the free Reach on it's Bite.

Also I need to correct myself from earlier. Slings may be one handed but they are are two handed reload so they are off the table as far as one handed missile weapons goes.

Depending on how you read it (and on how your DM interprets it), you may only need ONE free hand to reload ALL your slings.
Granted, you'll need 2 feats to reload a Sling as a Free Action.
But making "number of arms minus 1" Sling attacks each round, getting STR on the damage, AND getting a decent Range Increment vs. Thrown weapons...
Slings just might be the best option.

[Negher]

Hello, I’m new in this forum, and first of all I want to thank Saph and all of you for this guide that is helping me to build and create my Summoner.
After years playing Advanced and Third edition last year we decide to test PF and I found in the summoner the perfect class for me (I love building characters and the possibility to change my eidolon every level give me an infinity of possibility).
Now I’m at 6th level and I’ve change the future progression of the eidolon at least 5 times!!
I’d like to know what you think of my eidolon.
The summoner is a Tien min (Japanese) male human and the Eidolon is a creature like Goro of Mortal Kombat.

This is my Eidolon (SHIN)

Focus on dealing a limited number of attack/round but maximize the effect of feats and evolutions to deal great damage with max reach (biped eidolon, human summoner).

Level 1: (until lev 6 use claws for 2 attack/round)
Evos: Reach, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Damage
Feats: Power attack
Level 3
Feats: Combat reflexes
Level 6: (now you have 2 slam for 3D6+5 base damage, 10 ft reach and 3 possible attacks of opportunity)
Evos: Reach, INA, ID(slam), Ability increase(Str), limbs, 2xslam
Feats: Improved natural attack (slam)

From this point I don’t take others attack (I have a third attack at -5 with multiattack at level 9) because the need of take limbs for every attack transform the eidolon into a ridiculous multi arm monster (8 arms to have 4 attack is horrible)
For the next levels I’ll use all of my Evo point to go Large e buy abilities (tremorsense, magick attack, pull, push and so on, change Str bonus in Dex bonus)
Important is my idea of feats progression. To have a complete battle field control I planned to choose:
Lev 9: Lunge
Lev 11: Stand Still
Lev 14: improved bull rush
Lev 17: Awesome blow
Lev 19: Quicken bull rush

The combat routine is to move in a position that give the eidolon the possibility of hit a great number of enemies, then use all the opportunity attacks to stop enemies (stand still), moving away from me (push evolution or, later, awesome blow) or near if they try to escape (pull).
With 4D6+x when Large the damage is brutal and enemies without reach have few possibility to make complete attack against me.
Thanks

Sorry for my bad English, I’m Italian and I’ve got a lot of rust on it.


PS:(I’ve also an home-made list of summon monster removing demons and using monsters of Japanese culture from Bestiary 3, if anyone is interested I can post it later).

[Karoht]

I might as well post my build here then.

Synthesist Summoner
Feats
I've always had an eye on the Dimentional Agility/Assault/Dervish/Savant line of feats but never could find a good platform for them. Until now. Synth Summoner works rather handily. The important feature is Dimention Savant, which allows me to flank with myself (by teleporting back and forth hitting the same enemy) or with others (any enemy I hit using Dimentional Dervish leaves behind an after image, which threatens for purposes of flanking). And then when done with smacking things around, teleport to either and advantageous battlefield position and threaten a decent area with a longspear and Combat Reflexes, or teleport back to cover, maybe cast a spell, whatever I feel like.
Those four feats come online between levels 7-13.

Evolutions
Quadruped, 4 arms (two with claws, two holding a longspear) 4 claw attacks (two from the arms, two on the front legs), bite, gore, with pounce. Scent and Wings for utility. Gore if the build allows for it. Large size upgrade happens at 9th level.
Pounce is really a backup item in the event that something prevents the teleporation. Dimentional Anchor, AMF cheese, or anything else.
Slight Variation of the "Killer Centaur" on the first page of this guide.
"On turn 1, the summoner casts haste and moves and the Eidolon makes a flying charge of up to 140 feet, pounces, and full attacks, making 3 greatsword attacks, 4 claw attacks, a bite, and a rend Gore (?)" all at a +16 to hit (18 str, Large adding another 8 str, +8 BAB), before items and buffs.
After which, at 13, we cause Flanking to be a major factor in addition to the above. Highly valuable if anyone does Sneak Attacks, and Flanking + Charge for all the allies is not something to be underestimated.

[grarrrg]

This is my Eidolon (SHIN)

Focus on dealing a limited number of attack/round but maximize the effect of feats and evolutions to deal great damage with max reach (biped eidolon, human summoner).

You may find this thread useful.
Sort of...

[Negher]

You may find this thread useful.
Sort of...

Thanks, I've decided to shift from a many attacks (4 claws, bite and gore) with low damage to few attacks with high damage when I read this post last month..... (and when I found the hundredth monster with DR!!!)

I prefer to stop at Large Eidolon instead of Huge for "logistic" reasons, but use of Enlarge person (when possible) and Strong Jaw (I've a druid in my party) is in my mind!

[Karoht]

Large size + Strong Jaw is just plain awesome. But it is really really tempting to spend the extra 6 evolution points and be Huge. And then Enlarge Person. And then use Strong Jaw. And hit like a bus.

[Negher]

Large size + Strong Jaw is just plain awesome. But it is really really tempting to spend the extra 6 evolution points and be Huge. And then Enlarge Person. And then use Strong Jaw. And hit like a bus.

True, the potential damage is very attractive.
But we are playing The Council of Thieves so we have a great part of adventure in urban context, now my eidolon stay with me with an Hat of disguise even if I'm walking in the streets, think of going around with an Huge "human" near me its a little bit problematic.
Second I don't want to exaggerate with Over Power.

Some questions about reach:
The reach evolution is only applicable to 1 attack? If I pick Reach (slam) only one of my 2 attacks have reach? The description tells "pick one attack" and not "pick one tipe of attack".
And when I'll pick the third attack (at -5 with multiattack) this attack have reach?
I can't pick reach two times, 'cause its not written that is possible to select this evolution more than one time, true?

[Barstro]

I can't pick reach two times, 'cause its not written that is possible to select this evolution more than one time, true?

I'm pretty sure that not only can you pick it multiple times, but you can use it multiple times on the same attack.

But you are correct, it does not specify either way.

See below.

[grarrrg]

The reach evolution is only applicable to 1 attack? If I pick Reach (slam) only one of my 2 attacks have reach? The description tells "pick one attack" and not "pick one tipe of attack".
And when I'll pick the third attack (at -5 with multiattack) this attack have reach?
I can't pick reach two times, 'cause its not written that is possible to select this evolution more than one time, true?

I'm pretty sure that not only can you pick it multiple times, but you can use it multiple times on the same attack.

But you are correct, it does not specify either way.

They answered this in a FAQ (finally...)
"If I choose the reach evolution for my eidolon, how many of its attacks gains increased reach?

The ability description says "pick one attack," not "pick one attack type." So if your eidolon has two claws and you pick "claw" for the reach evolution, only one claw gets increased reach. (The reach evolution is intended to let you emulate having a dragon-eidolon, as a dragon's bite attack has greater reach than its claws.)"

Reach is a ONE time Evolution, that applies only to ONE single attack.
Still useful, but you can't go crazy with it (and presumably cannot apply it to Manufactured Weapon attacks).

And when I'll pick the third attack (at -5 with multiattack)

??
Something is wrong here, but I'm not sure what.

If you have different types of Natural Attacks, all attacks listed as "Primary" use Full Bab. All attacks listed as "Secondary" use Bab -5.

If you use a Manufactured Weapon with Natural Attacks then ALL Natural Attacks are considered Secondary attacks, and take the -5 penalty.

If you have the Multiattack feat, then ALL Secondary attacks only take a -2 penalty (this includes Primary attacks when you are using a Manufactured weapon).

If you are an Eidolon, with 2 or fewer Natural Attacks, then you can make an additional attack with one of those at a -5 Penalty. Example: If you have a Bite and a Slam and make a Full attack, you could Bite(0)/Slam(0)/Bite(-5) or Bite(0)/Slam(0)/Slam(-5). But this only applies if you have 2 or fewer Natural Attacks.


Hopefully this clears something up.