[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[Lord Vukodlak]

The way the eidolon version is written it seems to add both together. Is that the correct interpretation of the rule? If not, why?

Rend does not add the strength damage twice, it be +15 damage regardless of magic fang or if the claws were being used as primary or secondary attacks. A troll for example has a rend of a 1d6+7 not +13. A Dire Ape's rend deals a 1d4+6 not a d4+10.

[Delenot]

Rend does not add the strength damage twice, it be +15 damage regardless of magic fang or if the claws were being used as primary or secondary attacks. A troll for example has a rend of a 1d6+7 not +13. A Dire Ape's rend deals a 1d4+6 not a d4+10.

Thank you. I was looking for monster's that used rend for comparison.

[Delenot]

Another question.
Normally the UMR rules require two or more claw hits on the same target to trigger rend, and it explictly states rend can only occur once a round.

Reading the Eidolon version of rend it states that the only requirement to trigger rend is two claw hits on the same target and does not limit the amount of times rend can occure.

This is assuming the UMRs are considered the general rules, and the rend written for the Eidolon is the specific version. Also thinking that the difference is intentional, if not, why would that version of rend be completely written out rather than just referencing the existing UMR?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Another question.
Normally the UMR rules require two or more claw hits on the same target to trigger rend, and it explictly states rend can only occur once a round.

Reading the Eidolon version of rend it states that the only requirement to trigger rend is two claw hits on the same target and does not limit the amount of times rend can occure.

This is assuming the UMRs are considered the general rules, and the rend written for the Eidolon is the specific version. Also thinking that the difference is intentional, if not, why would that version of rend be completely written out rather than just referencing the existing UMR?

The specific rules don't say they can rend more than once a round either so the general rule still applies.

[upho]

The specific rules don't say they can rend more than once a round either so the general rule still applies.

This.

The UMR are also more up to date than the evo rules, including later errata/clarifications (for example the changed size restrictions for grab). I suppose the evo rules are basically copies of older UMR texts, sometimes missing additions and clarifications, such as rend being possible only 1/round. The evos' lack of updates or details can of course easily be confused with the "specific trumps general"-rule, but I think it's safe to assume that if the UMR lists the same ability as an evo, the UMR text is correct unless:

• the evo specifically says it differs from the UMR
• the evo was updated/errata-ed after the UMR was

So far, there are no evos where the above applies AFAIK. Hope that makes things easier in case anyone finds other potential conflicts between evos and the UMR.

[Delenot]

Excellent replies. Thank you all for helping to clarify this. My apologies if it has been covered elsewhere, as this is greatly appreciated.

[_Korlash_]

Hello everyone!


I'm new to Pathfinder and intend to join a party that has good offensive capability but lacks a tank, ergo this will be my role as a Summoner.
Rulebooks are limited to Core, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat.
Races must be either Human or Half-Elf.
Starting level is 8.

So far I've played around with a few ideas, but nothing really works due to the lack of evolution points. The Synthesist seems to be the best choice, even though he loses half his actions per round.

Are there any good builds you can recommend? Or am I better off, if I play a normal Summoner and use nategar05's Tank-dalon?


I would pick a Half-Elf for the extra Evolution Points and the immunity to sleep.

Half-Elf
Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Arcane Training, Dual Minded, Elf Blood
Favored Class: Summoner


Evolutions:
As a Half-Elf I get 30 instead of 26 evolution points until level 20.

Biped (claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs))

Bite = 1
Improved Natural Armor x2 = 2
Grab (Bite) = 2
Swallow Whole = 3
Large = 4
Huge = 6
Spell Resistance = 4
Immunity x4 (cold, fire, acid, electricity) = 8
= 30 points with no real offensive capabilities

That's the problem right there, he really is just a damage sponge, that occasionally eats enemies. I lack the experience to decide if this is a viable build, or if the Eidolon needs more Claws to deal damage (or Heads for more Bite+Grab+Swallow).

Does Constrict work with swallowed enemies?
Is Unnatural Aura(UM) worth the evolution point?

I could use the Extra Evolution feat a few times to get up to 34 evolution points, but I don't know if this is a waste.

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Natural Weapon) (or do I have to pick between Claws and Bite?)
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still (large/huge + reach = no one gets around you)
Extend Spell (for Buffs)

[upho]

Welcome to the Playground, Korlash! I'm a rather new member myself.

I'm new to Pathfinder and intend to join a party that has good offensive capability but lacks a tank, ergo this will be my role as a Summoner.

Are you experienced with D&D 3.5 or are you mostly new to the D20 rules system? The reason I'm asking is because the summoner is known as a very complex class to build (and play), having lots of little fiddly details requiring careful attention. And in most groups and parties, I'd say there are unfortunately lots of mistakes easily made with this class also when played strictly according to the rules, such as the summoner unintentionally overshadowing the other PCs abilities and/or the player unintentionally hogging too much time and spotlight in combat. Regardless of your experience, I definitely think you should give it a try though, just be aware that you'll probably need to think about stuff like the above more than with other classes.

Which brings us to a more important question: what do you know of the other PCs in the party (classes, build types etc)?

Rulebooks are limited to Core, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat.
Races must be either Human or Half-Elf.
Starting level is 8.

So far I've played around with a few ideas, but nothing really works due to the lack of evolution points. The Synthesist seems to be the best choice, even though he loses half his actions per round.

Aight. Well, I'm sure a Synth would be great at the job, but so would also a vanilla summoner, I think. This of course depends on your party make up and specific builds, but in total, I'd say it's likely the superior action economy of the vanilla summoner benefits the party more than the solo Synth powerhouse. And speaking from a strict optimization perspective, I think the Master Summoner would actually be the most successful in a tank role. But personally I'd miss focusing on the virtually unending tactical options and uniqueness the eidolon offers, and I tend to grow tired of spamming pouncing meat shields...

If you really want to focus on the eidolon, the half-elf with the wild caller racial archetype is the way to go, notably offering more evolution points than any other option may. They gain a slightly weaker, less versatile summon monster ability and lose access to some evos though (but none crucial for a tank eidolon).

Are there any good builds you can recommend? Or am I better off, if I play a normal Summoner and use nategar05's Tank-dalon?

Unfortunately, the guide itself hasn't been updated for a very long time, meaning that most of the example builds include options that have been changed and none of the more recent options. While I haven't looked thoroughly at the Tank-dalon, my first impression is that it's, while not bad, far from the most effective tank-ish build I've seen. At least if you're looking for a 'defender' kind of eidolon which prioritizes battlefield control and quickly disabling opponents. See below for an example build including the latest rules changes and options from the sources allowed in your campaign.

Also, check out this guide for a different take on the summoner, suitable for tanking.

I would pick a Half-Elf for the extra Evolution Points and the immunity to sleep.

Just a quick note: the half-elf is arguably the best choice for an eidolon focused summoner and has some great racial traits and options (dual minded, ancestral arms, bonus vs. enchantment, paragon surge spell etc), but don't expect the highly situational sleep immunity to be one of them unless the DM has said so.

My comments in red:
Evolutions:
As a Half-Elf I get 30 instead of 26 evolution points until level 20. Or 35 with max number of Extra Evolution feats, or a total max of 40 as a Wild Caller. More than enough to have points to spare for just going bananaz!

Biped (claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs))

Bite = 1
Improved Natural Armor x2 = 2 I'd probably max this to x5, it's so cheap.
Grab (Bite) = 2
Swallow Whole = 3 Be wary of this, most enemies won't have any difficulty whatsoever to cut themselves free and ruin this ability, the eidolon's sensitive belly having really poor AC and HP. It's also expensive and limited to smaller opponents. First consider Rapid Grappler to quickly Tie Up opponents.
Large = 4
Huge = 6
Spell Resistance = 4
Immunity x4 (cold, fire, acid, electricity) = 8 Way too costly in comparison to how often these typically come into play, IMO. And spell resistance plus perhaps an energy resistance spell often do the job. Better spent on reach, flight, skill bonuses, Aspect and other more fun stuff.

= 30 points with no real offensive capabilities

That's the problem right there, he really is just a damage sponge, that occasionally eats enemies. I lack the experience to decide if this is a viable build, or if the Eidolon needs more Claws to deal damage (or Heads for more Bite+Grab+Swallow).

Yeah, the main problem here is definitely putting too many points into the sponging aspect of the eidolon. I think it's good to remember that the arguably greatest strength of the eidolon is it's inherent 'immortality' - as long as the summoner doesn't bite the dust, the eidolon comes back with half HP the next day, at the latest (earlier with the Summon Eidolon spell). With some noteworthy exceptions, this means evos increasing durability tend to give less bang for the buck than evos enabling new tactics (reach, trip) and increased versatility (skill bonuses, flight), even for a 'tank-olon'. And besides, the summon monster ability plus an awesome spell list means the summoner is very capable even without the eidolon.

Does Constrict work with swallowed enemies?

Swallowed creatures keep the grappled condition, but constrict triggers off of successful grapple checks, which aren't made against swallowed creatures, so no. The constrict evo is also limited to the serpentine base form.

Is Unnatural Aura(UM) worth the evolution point?

Unless you play in some very animal-focused campaign, I cannot see much mechanical benefit being gained from this evo, seems to be more annoying than useful (potentially scaring mounts and other domesticated animals).

I could use the Extra Evolution feat a few times to get up to 34 evolution points, but I don't know if this is a waste.

Depends on which race and archetype you ultimately decide upon, as well as what other capabilities you wish your summoner to have. As a half-elf wild caller, I'd say you get more than enough points anyway. Though if you're human and/or if your DM allows retraining, even taking the maximum five allowed can be great. (Note that it's max 5, not 4.)

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Natural Weapon) (or do I have to pick between Claws and Bite?)

Yes, it only applies to one natural attack type.

Combat Reflexes
Stand Still (large/huge + reach = no one gets around you)

Unfortunately, this only triggers when enemies moves adjacent and isn't affected by reach.

Extend Spell (for Buffs)

The eidolon must be a caster in order to use this feat (= bad idea). Or if you meant for the summoner, this is great to put in a rod.

Here's a quick tank-ish melee control biped build (30 pts):

{table=head]{colsp=4}

UPHODONTROLLER

Evolution

|

EP

|

HD

|

Feat

Bite |

1

|

1

| Combat Reflexes
Reach (bite) |

1

|

3

| Improved Grapple
Perception Bonus |

1

|

5

| Weapon Focus (bite)
Impr. Armor x5 |

5

|

7

| Greater Grapple
Huge |

10

|

9

| Rapid Grappler
Spell Resistance |

4

|

11

| Snatch
Blindsense |

3

|

13

| Lunge
DR 10/alignment |

5

|

15

| Power Attack
[/table]

Improved Armor, SR and DR grants considerable staying power, while huge size, reach and lunge allows for three extremely accurate hard grabbing attacks per turn in an area of up to 65x65 ft. Notice especially the Snatch feat, replacing the need for the Grab evo and granting additional fun stuff, such as flinging foes around!

[Karoht]

Personally I save the spell Evolution Surge for things like Immunities, Web, and a few others. Web evolution is pretty darned useful, but requires a point sink in one of the climbing evolutions.
Swallow Whole is basically something you do to rob someone of actions. They can only do a certain amount of damage to you each round, and you keep that creature Swallow-locked. It's not bad, but it's not great either. Web is better because it eats a standard action at minimum, and the DC is high enough to be non-trivial for quite a while.

[Barstro]

Why Biped? Large Quadruped with single bite attack, Reach, Multiattack, Haste gets three bites with 10ft range on Full Attack or Pounce. Add combat reflexes and you'll get a lot of AoO from people trying to get around the Eidolon.

Some pretty inexpensive evolutions add free combat maneuvers to bite attacks (I'm a fan of trip).

Sadly, I'm going only from theory and not playing, as another party member already took Summoner. But, the action economy seems too important to give up. Having a Summoner able to cast Evolution Surge for any situations and then have the Eidolon go at it is very important.

A great part of a Summoner, imho, is they are the only ones who can use a Lesser Rod of Dazing on Wall of Fire. Really locks down opponents and makes it harder for them to get past the Eidolon.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Why Biped? Large Quadruped with single bite attack, Reach, Multiattack, Haste gets three bites with 10ft range on Full Attack or Pounce. Add combat reflexes and you'll get a lot of AoO from people trying to get around the Eidolon.

Well Biped has more reach which makes the Combat Reflexes more effective it also starts with two attacks(claws) instead of one attack bite. Claw attacks also allow for rend which gives you extra damage when your already at your attack limit

[Barstro]

Well Biped has more reach which makes the Combat Reflexes more effective it also starts with two attacks(claws) instead of one attack bite. Claw attacks also allow for rend which gives you extra damage when your already at your attack limit

To the left;
1) adding Reach evolution will only help one attack; so, single claw.
2) Damage Reduction affects all those attacks.
3) Not getting a full attack leads to one weak claw instead of one stronger jaw.

I'd argue that Combat Reflexes (AoO is a single attack, even if multiple times) benefits the stronger single attack Bite more than the weaker single claw.

No arguing about Rend, though.

I simply think (possibly incorrectly) that a melee damage Eidolon would best be Biped or quad-claw, but a Tanker should be quad-bite.

[Lord Vukodlak]

To the left;
1) adding Reach evolution will only help one attack; so, single claw.
2) Damage Reduction affects all those attacks.
3) Not getting a full attack leads to one weak claw instead of one stronger jaw.

I'd argue that Combat Reflexes (AoO is a single attack, even if multiple times) benefits the stronger single attack Bite more than the weaker single claw.

No arguing about Rend, though.

I simply think (possibly incorrectly) that a melee damage Eidolon would best be Biped or quad-claw, but a Tanker should be quad-bite.

A large biped without any other evolutions has a reach of 10ft, adding the reach evolution isn't necessary. Arms can also benefit from the item "Longarm bracers" which 3/day as a swift action increase the reach with attacks using your arms by 5ft until the start of your next turn.

A biped also has good will saves, while quads have good reflex. Personally I'd prefer good will saves as a failed reflex save typically just results in damage while a failed will save could see your pet dismissed, paralyzed, blinded(glitterdust) or otherwise instantly disabled.

[upho]

Swallow Whole is basically something you do to rob someone of actions. They can only do a certain amount of damage to you each round, and you keep that creature Swallow-locked. It's not bad, but it's not great either. Web is better because it eats a standard action at minimum, and the DC is high enough to be non-trivial for quite a while.

Web is great during lower levels, I agree. The reason for not taking Swallow is because Tie Up offers a more certain lock down (virtually impossible to get out of, barring perhaps a very unusual spelltrigger) without the risk of taking damage and without having to spend EPs.

[Karoht]

Web is great during lower levels, I agree. The reason for not taking Swallow is because Tie Up offers a more certain lock down (virtually impossible to get out of, barring perhaps a very unusual spelltrigger) without the risk of taking damage and without having to spend EPs.

Web to immobilize, Rapid Grapple to grapple-spam-bind target.
Swallow Whole at that point would just be hilarious, but still not recommended.
Also, Grapple is limited by two factors. High CMD's and Freedom of Movement. Web is only limited by Freedom of Movement, higher chance of being effective. You can Web something and still attack something else if I'm not mistaken. Just not as part of a Pounce.

[upho]

Why Biped? Large Quadruped with single bite attack, Reach, Multiattack, Haste gets three bites with 10ft range on Full Attack or Pounce. Add combat reflexes and you'll get a lot of AoO from people trying to get around the Eidolon.

The main reason for biped is simple: reach is king for this type of eidolon. Keep in mind that for a BFC type of eidolon damage isn't very important, rather it's something nice to have for those few opponents impossible to grab. Multiple attacks and pounce is also mostly nice to have, but not necessary as they won't affect the number of AoOs that can be made. (Although when the eidolon can be made huge and qualifies for Snatch, it is quite a bonus to have two additional grabbing attacks, especially when fighting numerous smaller and weaker opponents that can be grabbed individually despite the -10 penalty.)

Roughly speaking, you could say that this eidolon's grapple CMB (and CMD to some extent) is the equivalent of a striker type eidolon's damage, and having numerous grapple checks/round is the equivalent of having numerous attacks.

Some pretty inexpensive evolutions add free combat maneuvers to bite attacks (I'm a fan of trip).

Trip is nice, especially during lower levels when few enemies are immune. The downside during higher levels is that the eidolon cannot access trip feats (without a ridiculous investment in Int) to boost it, and it cannot be applied to claw attacks (like grab can).

A great part of a Summoner, imho, is they are the only ones who can use a Lesser Rod of Dazing on Wall of Fire. Really locks down opponents and makes it harder for them to get past the Eidolon.

This is good, I agree, though I definitely wouldn't call it 'a great part of a summoner' as in many (most?) parties it's by no means required to be optimized or silly effective.

[upho]

To the left;
1) adding Reach evolution will only help one attack; so, single claw.
2) Damage Reduction affects all those attacks.
3) Not getting a full attack leads to one weak claw instead of one stronger jaw.

I'd argue that Combat Reflexes (AoO is a single attack, even if multiple times) benefits the stronger single attack Bite more than the weaker single claw.

Yes, but consider that eidolons don't come without EPs, and what can be done with those EPs. For a single point, the quad might gain reach with its bite, and the biped gains a bite (which in most cases already have reach 10+ because of Enlarge Person and/or Large evo.) Add an additional EP and the biped already has a significant advantage when it comes to tanking/BFC. As levels and EPs are gained, the impact of this typically grows, just as the difference between having and not having pounce typically becomes increasingly noticeable for striker type eidolons. So all things considered, for this type of eidolon, sacrificing one additional EP for a bite attack is a silly low price to pay for the advantages gained from going with biped instead of quad. Especially when also taking into account that the claws can also gain grab in higher levels.

No arguing about Rend, though.

I don't think Rend is actually worth mentioning in this case, as it's rarely worth the cost for this type of eidolon. But yes, in case of a striker type eidolon it is an advantage the biped has over quad, albeit insignificant in comparison to pounce IMO.

I simply think (possibly incorrectly) that a melee damage Eidolon would best be Biped or quad-claw, but a Tanker should be quad-bite.

I would say it's the other way around - a damage/striker eidolon has slightly more to gain from quad than biped, primarily because pounce is simply awesome for such an eidolon. For a tank/BFC type though, reach has such an impact on its performance I really don't think there's any question about which base form is the most optimal.

Also:

A biped also has good will saves, while quads have good reflex. Personally I'd prefer good will saves as a failed reflex save typically just results in damage while a failed will save could see your pet dismissed, paralyzed, blinded(glitterdust) or otherwise instantly disabled.

[_Korlash_]

Thank you, everyone. Especially upho.

We had a session for playtesting, turns out the Synthesist won't work in this group.

1. Replies to Upho's post
2. Reasons the Synthesist won't work
3. Reasons the Wild Caller won't work
4. Current ideas

1. Replies to upho's post

Are you experienced with D&D 3.5 or are you mostly new to the D20 rules system?

I have a vague grasp of the PF rules. My DM and the group did a playtest with me and gave me a crash course to prepare me for the task at hand. Personally I like the challange the summoner presents :)
Since our DM never had a Summoner in his groups he allowed me to test the Synthesist/other builds and if it doesn't do the job I can still switch to another sub- or archetype or reskill if it was too weak or if it was outshining the rest of the party.
Update: After the playtest we agreed that I will play a normal Summoner, unless I can make the Wild Caller work.

what do you know of the other PCs in the party (classes, build types etc)?

The party consists of a Magus, a Bard and an Inquisitor, all good at dealing damage, pretty bad at taking a hit. The Bard buffs, the Inquisitor is ranged, but can go into melee, the Magus is pretty much a Volcano.

(...)I think the Master Summoner*would actually be the most successful in a tank role.

I believe the Master Summoner would take too much time to manage in combat and the other players might get bored. Also this one seems too prone to errors.

(Swallow Whole) Be wary of this, most enemies won't have any difficulty whatsoever to cut themselves free and ruin this ability, the eidolon's sensitive belly having really poor AC and HP. It's also expensive and limited to smaller opponents. First consider Rapid Grappler to quickly Tie Up opponents.

I considered Swallow Whole to be a save or die against casters (see erik542's „Nom-beast“ on page one), but you (and the others) make a good point and I droped the idea.

(...) don't expect the highly situational sleep immunity to be one of them [great racial trait ] unless the DM has said so

While reading up on the summoner I figured that, next to dismiss and banishment, sleep would be one of the spells that would send my power armor right to the scrap yard.



2. Problems
The Synthesist is not yet implemented in Hero Lab (minor problem)
We use Wounds & Vigor instead of HP. This leads to some confusion regarding the Eidolon's tankiness. It's not clear if I should
a) just add the Eidolon's and Summoners Wounds and Vigor (overpowered)
b) use the highest (underpowered?)
c) use the Summoner's wounds for him and the fused form; AND use their own Vigor each (seems more balanced, but still weak. The Eidolon can still die in one hit, leaving the summoner naked for the rest of the turn.) I fear the Synthesist can't be properly balanced for Wounds & Vigor.
Other minor problems due to my specific group.

Solution:
Play a normal Summoner :)



3. Reasons the Wild Caller won't work
A Wild Caller has too many restrictions for his Eidolon. It cannot take: immunity (from Evolution Surge, Lesser), damage reduction, dimension door and spell resistance



4. Current ideas

Half-Elf:
Key: Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Elf Blood
Alternatives: Dual-Minded (replaces Adaptability), Multitalented (I don't see myself multiclassing, but Arcane Training seems worse than 1 skill point each level)

Ability scores rolled: 13 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 15 Int, 15 Wis, (17 Cha +2 Racial) = 19 Cha
+1 unallocated for reaching level 4 (increase Cha to 20?)

Feats:
Must have Eschew Materials (DM's orders for any caster)
I'm still working on this part, because all the work I had done was for the Synthesist :)
I guess upho's suggest build would work very well with a few minor changes. I'll definitly test your Molest-todon build.

Summoner Spells:
(Lv0x6 1x5 2x4 3x2)

0: Message, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, Open/Close, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Grease, Rejuvinate Eidolon Lesser, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil, (next: Compel Hostility)
2: Haste, Barkskin, Summon Eidolon, Evolution Surge Lesser
3: Ivisibility Greater, Heroism, (next: Dimension Door / Fire Shield)

[Lord Vukodlak]

While reading up on the summoner I figured that, next to dismiss and banishment, sleep would be one of the spells that would send my power armor right to the scrap yard.

There are numerous methods to keep your pet active even if you've been taken out of commission.

The "Eidolon Anchoring Harness" item will burn uses of your summon monster ability to stay active while your unconscious. The feat "Resilient Eidolon" will keep your Eidolon around for 1/round per summoner level after you've fallen unconscious.

[upho]

I have a vague grasp of the PF rules. My DM and the group did a playtest with me and gave me a crash course to prepare me for the task at hand. Personally I like the challange the summoner presents :)
Since our DM never had a Summoner in his groups he allowed me to test the Synthesist/other builds and if it doesn't do the job I can still switch to another sub- or archetype or reskill if it was too weak or if it was outshining the rest of the party.
Update: After the playtest we agreed that I will play a normal Summoner, unless I can make the Wild Caller work.

Really great you did a play test, I think. Hopefully it gave you and the DM as well as the rest of your group a much better understanding of how this rather different class actually plays in your party and which builds that fit. Likewise, I think your DM has made a good call by allowing you to change builds if the one you start with should turn out problematic. Such a cooperative and allowing mindset goes a long way to ensure the game is fun for everyone. Give him/her my regards and tell him/her to keep up the good job!

The party consists of a Magus, a Bard and an Inquisitor, all good at dealing damage, pretty bad at taking a hit. The Bard buffs, the Inquisitor is ranged, but can go into melee, the Magus is pretty much a Volcano.

That's a really interesting and cool party. The first thing that strikes me is that your party will consist entirely of rather powerful versatile classes, but none of the most powerful, meaning you're probably a lot less likely to run into serious balance problems than a more typical 'cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard'-type of party is in later levels. This also significantly reduces the risk of your summoner unintentionally stealing the show, especially since you also start at level 8 and the summoner (or rather the eidolon) has a greater tendency to walk over other front line classes' toes during early levels IME.

But you're all 'half-casters' (can cast up to spell level 6) and no less than three arcane ones, meaning you need to plan your spell progressions a bit more carefully together in order to avoid redundancies and lost overall versatility. As you may well know already, this is particularly important for you and the bard, since both your spells lists focuses on buffing and has quite a bit of overlap, but also with regards to the inquisitor (at least for lower level spells). See below for my suggestions on spells.

And yes, I'd say this party would definitely benefit the most from your summoner focusing on the front line (= tank/BFC eidolon/summons).

I believe the Master Summoner would take too much time to manage in combat and the other players might get bored. Also this one seems too prone to errors.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Even the vanilla summoner can run into these issues when going 'all in' with both summoned monsters and the eidolon in combat simultaneously. If/when your summoner needs to do this, my suggestion is that you ask the other players to control the summoned monsters. And that you're well prepared with printed easy-to-read stats for the monsters you're most likely to summon (this is usually no more than one or two for each level of the spell).

I considered Swallow Whole to be a save or die against casters (see erik542's „Nom-beast“ on page one), but you (and the others) make a good point and I droped the idea.

Yeah, I had the same initial impression (I currently play a summoner with a Nom-beast-ish eidolon). It quickly changed once I realized the swallowed caster would only need to have a simple knife or other sharp tool on his/her person to likely avoid being consumed and also disable my eidolon's swallowing ability in the process. I suspect erik542 either happened to miss/misread the rules on how easy a creature can cut itself free, or that he was rather lucky in the games he played, since his description gives the impression he considers Swallow a SoD (and nobody posted any objections). But regardless, neither the Rapid Grappler or the Equipment Trick (Rope - Hogtie) feats existed when he made the build, meaning the Swallow evo was likely still the least bad option available to quickly disable a grabbed creature.

While reading up on the summoner I figured that, next to dismiss and banishment, sleep would be one of the spells that would send my power armor right to the scrap yard.

IME magic sleep is very rarely the reason for unconsciousness (the most common ones of course being HP loss or one of several magic effects other than sleep), especially after the first few levels. But you're absolutely correct that being unconscious tends to be an unusually life-threatening condition for a synth, making sleep immunity slightly less 'meh', I guess.

2. Problems
The Synthesist is not yet implemented in Hero Lab (minor problem)
We use Wounds & Vigor instead of HP. This leads to some confusion regarding the Eidolon's tankiness. It's not clear if I should
a) just add the Eidolon's and Summoners Wounds and Vigor (overpowered)
b) use the highest (underpowered?)
c) use the Summoner's wounds for him and the fused form; AND use their own Vigor each (seems more balanced, but still weak. The Eidolon can still die in one hit, leaving the summoner naked for the rest of the turn.) I fear the Synthesist can't be properly balanced for Wounds & Vigor.
Other minor problems due to my specific group.

From a pure RAW perspective, I'd say alternative c) is the most correct (as THP = VP), also meaning the eidolon would be dismissed the moment those extra VPs are lost.

I think a solution more in line with the intent of the synth rules would be to simply treat the synth as 'a creature inside another creature', meaning that the fused synth uses the eidolon's VP and WP (becoming staggered when below the eidolon's wound threshold etc), and the summoner's VP and WP if/when the eidolon's WPs are lost (and the eidolon is dismissed). In other words, an enemy would have to reduce the eidolon's VP and WP to 0 before it can affect the summoner's. Of course, the summoner can use the Fused Link feature to sacrifice his own VP if the eidolon's VP would be reduced to 0, as well as his WP if those are threatened. In effect, this is similar to your alternative a) and very much as the original synth rules (where Fused Link enables the fused synth to transform his own regular HP into the eidolon's THP).

Solution:
Play a normal Summoner :)

Regardless of whether you find an acceptable solution for the synth, this won't be a bad choice. And besides, the synth is sort of a poster child for rules fuzziness (or non-existence), even when not involving alternative sub-systems like W&V.

3. Reasons the Wild Caller won't work
A Wild Caller has too many restrictions for his Eidolon. It cannot take: immunity (from Evolution Surge, Lesser), damage reduction, dimension door and spell resistance

Hmm... Looking more closely at the wild caller, I think you may be correct that a tankolon summoner loses too many good evos to make the extra EPs of this archetype worthwhile. Especially since you have the half-elf extra EPs anyway.

4. Current ideas

Half-Elf:
Key: Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Elf Blood
Alternatives: Dual-Minded (replaces Adaptability), Multitalented (I don't see myself multiclassing, but Arcane Training seems worse than 1 skill point each level)

You can always get the +1 HP or skill point instead of another favored class bonus, Multitalented only allows you to treat two classes as favored instead of one. It doesn't mean you get both the extra EP favored class bonus as well as +1 HP or skill point when you gain summoner levels.

Regarding Adaptability/Dual-Minded, there's one thing that can make Adaptability very much worth keeping, and that's the Eldritch Heritage feat which has Skill Focus as a prerequisite. If choosing the Arcane Bloodline, you'll get both a familiar providing you with a nice bonus (such as an awesome +4 to initiative) and your eidolon with company, and an extra use/day of any spell you know.

Ability scores rolled: 13 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 15 Int, 15 Wis, (17 Cha +2 Racial) = 19 Cha
+1 unallocated for reaching level 4 (increase Cha to 20?)

Yes, keep pumping that Cha! Don't forget the second increase at level 8. And gosh, your ability scores are through the roof! I think these numbers would feel kinda wasted on the synth, really.

Feats:
Must have Eschew Materials (DM's orders for any caster)
I'm still working on this part, because all the work I had done was for the Synthesist :)
I guess upho's suggest build would work very well with a few minor changes. I'll definitly test your Molest-todon build.

Keep in mind that the 'uphodontroller' was level 20, meaning the exact feat order etc might not be the best (for example, I wouldn't go for Combat Reflexes at level 1, since it has no benefit until the eidolon's dex has increased to at least 14+). Also, some evos, like Trip and Web can be great during earlier levels.

Summoner Spells:
(Lv0x6 1x5 2x4 3x2)

0: Message, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, Open/Close, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Grease, Rejuvinate Eidolon Lesser, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil, (next: Compel Hostility)
2: Haste, Barkskin, Summon Eidolon, Evolution Surge Lesser
3: Ivisibility Greater, Heroism, (next: Dimension Door / Fire Shield)

I'd check with the inquisitor and bard regarding Protection from Evil (potential redundancy, I would also suggest getting a cheap party wand of it), changing it to Shield on your list. Rejuvinate Eidolon is also suitable for a wand. Check with the bard regarding especially Haste and Heroism - you get Haste as a level 2 spell (earlier than any other class, but the bard has more spells/day), and Heroism is sort of the bard class' signature spell (I'd change it into Dimension Door).

[_Korlash_]

First of all: Hero Lab had an update since Sunday and now supports a buggy Synthesist.

Hi,

Really great you did a play test, I think. Hopefully it gave you and the DM as well as the rest of your group a much better understanding of how this rather different class actually plays in your party and which builds that fit. Likewise, I think your DM has made a good call by allowing you to change builds if the one you start with should turn out problematic. Such a cooperative and allowing mindset goes a long way to ensure the game is fun for everyone. Give him/her my regards and tell him/her to keep up the good job!

I will give him your regards.
The play test really helped, since we now know, that there are a few problems with the rules for your suggested build (addressed below) and that the Synthesist itself isn't a good choice for this group.

That's a really interesting and cool party. The first thing that strikes me is that your party will consist entirely of rather powerful versatile classes, but none of the most powerful, meaning you're probably a lot less likely to run into serious balance problems than a more typical 'cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard'-type of party is in later levels. This also significantly reduces the risk of your summoner unintentionally stealing the show, especially since you also start at level 8 and the summoner (or rather the eidolon) has a greater tendency to walk over other front line classes' toes during early levels IME.

That's intended. No level 7 spells allowed, same for the 2 levels in Fighter and 2 levels in Monk mixed builds, that gives you access to pretty much all of the combat feats.
We are not supposed to be gods and the world should still pose a threat at any character level.

But you're all 'half-casters' (can cast up to spell level 6) and no less than three arcane ones, meaning you need to plan your spell progressions a bit more carefully together in order to avoid redundancies and lost overall versatility. As you may well know already, this is particularly important for you and the bard, since both your spells lists focuses on buffing and has quite a bit of overlap, but also with regards to the inquisitor (at least for lower level spells). See below for my suggestions on spells.

True, but there will be overlaps due to the role playing aspect. The characters have to become a good team and will not start as one. I actually think this is part of the fun. I just build the Summoner as I saw fit and it turns out that the characters have very few overlaps.

The Bard and I don't have the same buffs – the Bard focuses on group buffs while I use single target buffs.
The Mage mostly has damage dealing spells and, except for Mage Hand, entirely different support spells.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Even the vanilla summoner can run into these issues when going 'all in' with both summoned monsters and the eidolon in combat simultaneously. If/when your summoner needs to do this, my suggestion is that you ask the other players to control the summoned monsters. And that you're well prepared with printed easy-to-read stats for the monsters you're most likely to summon (this is usually no more than one or two for each level of the spell).

I have a list of useful summons that I will use. The idea I had was: if I pass the Handle Animal check I would play them, if not I roll a die to select a player. I will then try to tell him what to do with gestures and he then uses the summon according to what he understood :)
As soon as there are too many summons everyone gets to use one or more. Same method as above, as long as the summons aren't swarm animals (swarm intelligence: the majority wins the decision, if its a tie the first to act wins).
Telepathy or a common language however, is another matter and I will ask the group if they want to play the summons.

From a pure RAW perspective, I'd say alternative c) is the most correct (as THP = VP), also meaning the eidolon would be dismissed the moment those extra VPs are lost.

I hoped the update for Hero Lab would offer a solution, but the Eidolon still has HP instead of Wounds&Vigor. Guess they will patch this pretty soon.
Furthermore the interaction with Fused Link is unclear, I assume that the Summoner can only transfer VP, not WP. I guess Fused Link will be houseruled like this.

Hmm... Looking more closely at the wild caller, I think you may be correct that a tankolon summoner loses too many good evos to make the extra EPs of this archetype worthwhile. Especially since you have the half-elf extra EPs anyway.

Yeah, the Wild Caller seems to be very good for aggressive or striker type eidolons, tanking lacks too many important evolutions.

You can always get the +1 HP or skill point instead of another favored class bonus, Multitalented only allows you to treat two classes as favored instead of one. It doesn't mean you get both the extra EP favored class bonus as well as +1 HP or skill point when you gain summoner levels.

I misunderstood that rule, thank you.

Regarding Adaptability/Dual-Minded, there's one thing that can make Adaptability very much worth keeping, and that's the Eldritch Heritage feat which has Skill Focus as a prerequisite. If choosing the Arcane Bloodline, you'll get both a familiar providing you with a nice bonus (such as an awesome +4 to initiative) and your eidolon with company, and an extra use/day of any spell you know.

Interesting, seems you can do a lot of powerful stuff with Eldritch Heritage. I have to check with my DM first if he allows this feat and which bloodline powers profit from Shared Spells.
I assume Supernatural Abilities, Extraordinary Abilities can't be shared, but Spell-Like Abilities can.
Arcane and Abyssal both look nice.
Are you sure the eidolon gets a familiar as well?

Yes, keep pumping that Cha! Don't forget the second increase at level 8. And gosh, your ability scores are through the roof! I think these numbers would feel kinda wasted on the synth, really.

Yeah, my rolls were good. My DM looked shocked when I joked I can do better and wanted to reroll :)

I'd check with the inquisitor and bard regarding Protection from Evil (potential redundancy, I would also suggest getting a cheap party wand of it), changing it to Shield on your list.

They don't have Protection from Evil, but the wand is a good idea and Shield seems to be a spell I would want to cast more often. I'll check with the group.

Check with the bard regarding especially Haste and Heroism - you get Haste as a level 2 spell (earlier than any other class, but the bard has more spells/day), and Heroism is sort of the bard class' signature spell (I'd change it into Dimension Door).

The Bard doesn't have Heroism, but I'll ask him if he intends to get it.
Haste seems to good to cut. Since the target of the spell doesn't age rapidly anymore you can spam it :)




Now for the grappling Problem:

As I understand your suggestion is based on the idea to get lots of AoOs combined with Reach and Grab to prevent enemies to walk around you while moving yourself onto their squares. Once you grapple some one you wait for more AoOs to grapple another one.
The problem is this:

Free Actions Can't Be Taken When It's Not Your Turn

Your foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. You take the attack of opportunity, make the touch attack roll to grab, don't provoke an attack of opportunity yourself because of your feat Improved Grapple (PH 95-6), succeeed on the touch attack roll to grab, and then stop because you can't take the free action that's required to make the opposed grapple check.

The foe has been grabbed (and released because you couldn't start the grapple), not grappled, and has taken no damage, so according to the RAW, the foe continues casting his spell without penalty.

ou can get all the way up to making an opposed grapple check versus an opponent who provokes an attack of opportunity by attempting a grapple, but you can't make the opposed grapple check--and thefrefore won't be able to do more than grab and release him--unless it's your turn or you have an off-turn free action available from another source; it's still a free action to make the opposed grapple check to get the hold.

(https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...of-opportunity)
(Yes, it's D&D 3.5e, but I don't see any relevant changes in the rules)

Or did I just misunderstand your build and it intends to grapple as many opponents as possible on your own turn, making the Combat Reflexes obsolete?

[middlewilliam]

im new to this thread and haven't read threw everything but i have gone a few pages in. but i noticed that the half-elf's +1/4 to eidolon evo pool is an ability that you take every lvl. therefore it is an ability that stacks. thus increasing the half-elf summoner power lvl by quite a bit.

[middlewilliam]

im new to this thread and haven't read threw everything but i have gone a few pages in. but i noticed that the half-elf's +1/4 to eidolon evo pool is an ability that you take every lvl. therefore it is an ability that stacks. thus increasing the half-elf summoner power lvl by quite a bit.

srry going back and rereading Saph's definition of the half elf's class extra explains it much better then the pathfinder app does. even though it should specify that it is every 4 levels that you get an extra point not 1/4 of your eidolons evolution pool. it leaves a lot of room for interpretation of the wording.

[stack]

It's a fairly standard way they list things like that, but you are far from the first to be confused.

[upho]

Arcane and Abyssal both look nice.
Are you sure the eidolon gets a familiar as well?

Sorry, the 'keep the eidolon company' was a bit misleading: the Eldritch Heritage feat would only be worth it for the summoner (the eidolon would have to waste a precious feat slot on Skill Focus which is awful, especially for an eidolon). Only the creature with the Eldritch Heritage feat (the summoner) gains its benefits (the familiar, among other stuff). Abyssal would've been an OK choice for the eidolon if it had better access to the feat, but it's a rather poor choice for the summoner unless you intend to build him as a melee partner to your eidolon.

Note that except for feats explicitly affecting the eidolon (such as Extra Evolution), the eidolon doesn't get any of the benefits from the summoner's feats, ever. And neither does the summoner get any benefits from the eidolon's feats. Outside of the Link and Share Spells abilities etc, the summoner and the eidolon are technically two different creatures just as separate as the summoner and his inquisitor ally.

The Bard doesn't have Heroism, but I'll ask him if he intends to get it.
Haste seems to good to cut. Since the target of the spell doesn't age rapidly anymore you can spam it :)

Yeah, you should most likely keep haste.

Now for the grappling Problem:

As I understand your suggestion is based on the idea to get lots of AoOs combined with Reach and Grab to prevent enemies to walk around you while moving yourself onto their squares. Once you grapple some one you wait for more AoOs to grapple another one.
The problem is this:
(https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...of-opportunity)
(Yes, it's D&D 3.5e, but I don't see any relevant changes in the rules)

Or did I just misunderstand your build and it intends to grapple as many opponents as possible on your own turn, making the Combat Reflexes obsolete?

There are a quite a few differences between PF and 3.5 in this regard:

• The grab ability allows the eidolon to make a regular attack and deal the normal damage just as any other attack, but a hit also allows the eidolon to make a grapple check against the hit target.
• Using the grab ability does not provoke an AoO (regardless of the whether the eidolon has the Improved Grapple feat or not).
• Grab is not a separate touch attack, but an addition to a regular natural attack.
• Grapple checks are not opposed checks, instead the attacker makes a CMB check against the defender's CMD (just as if rolling to hit with a regular melee attack against the target's AC).
• If the eidolon is allowed to make an attack with the natural weapon having the grab ability, it is also allowed to make the grapple check if the attack hits, regardless of when the attack occurs (during the eidolon's turn or someone else's).
• The initiator of a grapple can end the grapple as a free action at any time.

So to summarize, my example eidolon would make an AoO against a provoking enemy within the (rather large) area it threatens, make an attack roll to hit vs. the enemy's AC, and if successful, first deal damage normally and then also make a grapple check. If the check succeeds and the grappled enemy isn't adjacent to the eidolon already (it usually won't be), the enemy is immediately moved to any unoccupied adjacent space (this will happen a lot). If a second enemy provokes an AoO, the eidolon can end the current grapple with the first enemy and repeat the process with the second enemy. And as many additional enemies as the eidolon's Dex mod allows for and there's sufficient room for adjacent to the eidolon. So the eidolon kinda works as a 'black hole' that pulls enemies close and keep them in bad positions away from squishy allies.

Have a look at the PF grapple rules. They're slightly less confusing than in 3.5, but unfortunately still contain gaps and fuzzy wording (two hands and weird multi-limbed creatures, anyone?) and can create some odd and obviously unintended effects in quite a few situations.

[_Korlash_]

I agree with you except for one point:

• The initiator of a grapple can end the grapple as a free action at any time.

You don't get any free action outside of your own turn. All you get are immediate actions which can't be used to release a grapple.

The ruling, that you don't get these free actions can be derived from:

Swift Actions

[...] You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. [...]

This means that you can take a free action anytime you could take a swift action. = As far as timing is concerned free actions and swift actions are the same.

Immediate Actions

[...]However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

This implies that you can't take a free action outside of your turn, just like a swift action.


This would still allow you to grapple as an AoO as long as you weren't in a grapple already.
Furthermore the grappled condition states:

Grappled

[...] Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity. [...]

Preventing you from doing another attack since you can't release the grapple as a free action.

[Barstro]

[...] Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity. [...]

Poor editing on the SRD. Another page for grapple does not say that, and instead says

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Since you only need one free hand to cast a spell with somatic requirement, that should be allowed. But it is expressly forbidden elsewhere.

Likewise, a free hand that has reach (eidolon claw with reach evolution) should allow an AoO according to the language I quoted. But I agree that your language trumps it; however, it's not on the same page. For shame.

[upho]

You don't get any free action outside of your own turn. All you get are immediate actions which can't be used to release a grapple.

Yes, the general rule is that you cannot take free action outside of your own turn, but there are several exceptions to this (the one most commonly used is to speak). Releasing a grapple is, AFAICT, one such exception, the rules explicitly saying 'at any time'.

I would however understand a DM who rules otherwise, since this is an advantage primarily to a big creature with the potential to spam grabbing AoOs, a specialization an eidolon typically can excel in more than virtually any other creature, including PCs highly optimized towards doing that very thing. And in most campaigns, I believe the eidolon is very rarely the player controlled creature in most need of any boons, whatever they may be.

But even if the eidolon can only make one grabbing AoO per turn, combat reflexes and reach optimization are still well worth the investments for this type of eidolon IME. For example, in earlier levels the trip evo can be put to very good use while saving the single grabbing AoO for when/if it's most effective/needed. With Multiattack at level 9, the claws can also be changed into pincers for two additional boosted grab attacks. Starting at level 14, the Snatch feat adds the grab ability to both bite and claw attacks, giving the eidolon at least three grabbing attacks. And since the huge (or larger) size, 38+ strength and several grapple bonuses results in a ridiculously high CMB, some smaller opponents can be grabbed even with the -20 penalty that allows the eidolon to only use the limb making the attack to hold the opponent and avoid the grappled condition. And besides, starting the turn with the enemy already grappled means the eidolon needs to spend fewer actions to tie it up, and just the threat of a grabbing AoO will also often be enough to make enemies fight less effectively. So regardless of how your group decides to handle the free action to release a grapple, I think you'll get good mileage out of opting your eidolon's AoOs.

[N. Jolly]

Hey Saph, just did a little mini guide for the Synth Summoner, mind if I link your guide to it? You covered most of the basics, my guide is just extraneous to the archetype itself.

[Techgnosis]

Amazing guide Saph!

I am sorry if this has already been discussed, but there doesn't seem to be a search function, and there are *alot* of pages to sift through.
I just bought Hero Lab, and am in the process of importing my character when I discovered an issue. Either I have been unintentionally cheating, or I found an issue with Hero Lab.
My eidolon is a quadruped with the following evolutions
*Bite
*Limbs (Legs) (2)
Claws (2)
Improved Damage - Claws

When I attempt to add the Claws evolution twice Hero Lab freaks out and tells me "You must have a pair of arms to place these claws on".
Per the APG pg60 "This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution"

I thought I was fine, per my understanding of the rules. Two pairs of legs, two pairs of claws. Am I misunderstanding the rule or is Hero Lab just being buggy?