[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[Lord Vukodlak]

Amazing guide Saph!

I am sorry if this has already been discussed, but there doesn't seem to be a search function, and there are *alot* of pages to sift through.
I just bought Hero Lab, and am in the process of importing my character when I discovered an issue. Either I have been unintentionally cheating, or I found an issue with Hero Lab.
My eidolon is a quadruped with the following evolutions
*Bite
*Limbs (Legs) (2)
Claws (2)
Improved Damage - Claws

When I attempt to add the Claws evolution twice Hero Lab freaks out and tells me "You must have a pair of arms to place these claws on".
Per the APG pg60 "This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution"

I thought I was fine, per my understanding of the rules. Two pairs of legs, two pairs of claws. Am I misunderstanding the rule or is Hero Lab just being buggy?

It can only be applied to your legs once, no matter how many legs you have.
However if you have six sets of arms you can have six sets of claws.

Its an intentional limitation otherwise you wouldn't add arms you'd just add legs for the extra speed rather then using arm claws.

[grarrrg]

It can only be applied to your legs once, no matter how many legs you have.

What he said.
You'll either need to add a set of Arms for more Claws, or you can add Hooves to the other set of Legs (note: Hooves are Secondaries, so you'll have some accuracy/damage loss).

[Cieyrin]

Hey Saph, just did a little mini guide for the Synth Summoner, mind if I link your guide to it? You covered most of the basics, my guide is just extraneous to the archetype itself.

Saph is busy being a published author these days, so the likelihood of updates are slim. :/

[OgreSage]

What he said.
You'll either need to add a set of Arms for more Claws, or you can add Hooves to the other set of Legs (note: Hooves are Secondaries, so you'll have some accuracy/damage loss).

This does mean I could have a biped with four claw attacks (2 on arms and 2 on legs) right?

[grarrrg]

This does mean I could have a biped with four claw attacks (2 on arms and 2 on legs) right?

Correct.
Give or take the "Max Natural Attack cap" anyway.

[N. Jolly]

Saph is busy being a published author these days, so the likelihood of updates are slim. :/

Then like most publish authors, I'm going to take that as a yes.

[maricashi]

Has anyone considered Permanency for greater magic fang on your attacks? it gives all attacks +1 or can give +4 to one per casting for 7,500gp way cheaper than weapon enchants and then add in the amulet of natural attacks to add your other benefits of energy type or whatever you desire.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Has anyone considered Permanency for greater magic fang on your attacks? it gives all attacks +1 or can give +4 to one per casting for 7,500gp way cheaper than weapon enchants and then add in the amulet of natural attacks to add your other benefits of energy type or whatever you desire.

Well for one its dispellable, so if your enemies ever cast dispel magic on that buffed engine of destruction you could lose some of those permanency's. (as you'd have to cast greater magic fang on every natural weapon).
And at seven castings of permanency... crafting an amulet of mighty fist yourself would actually be cheaper.

If you don't know greater magic fang yourself that also inflates the cost, if you don't have a party member with permanency the cost likewise increases again.

Also a greater magic fang of +5 would require you either be a high level caster with the spell or you find a high level caster with the spell and pay him to cast it. (which might be problematic). It also wouldn't help against DR(except DR vs magic)

Making an amulet of mighty fist+5 could be done at caster level fifteen rather then sixteen for +4 or twenty for +5. But most importantly unlike with the spell. The enchantment from the amulet of mighty fist would effect other forms of DR. So an amulet of mighty fist+5 would allow your pet's attacks to overcome DR magic/cold iron/silver/adamantine and alignment.

[rockdeworld]

This handbook helps me out Saph (and I'm glad you took the suggestions on Paizo's forums for versatility).

One question: where is the Pouncer sample lv 1 build getting its stats from? I see this:

Spoiler

Show

Form: Quadruped
Evolutions (extra): Claws (1), Pounce (1), Improved Natural Armour (1)
Feats: Power Attack
AC: 16
Attack Routine (with Power Attack): Bite +2 (1d6+4) and 2 claws +2 (1d4+4)
Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Shield

The basic cat-build, this trades offense for defence. If you can get it fully buffed (note: use Mage Armour when going into dangerous areas, and carry scrolls of Shield) it'll have an AC of 24, meaning most 1st-level opponents will need a natural 20 to hit.

But the AC should be 10 + 2 dex + 1 INA = 13, not 16.

[grarrrg]

Form: Quadruped
Evolutions (extra): Claws (1), Pounce (1), Improved Natural Armour (1)
But the AC should be 10 + 2 dex + 1 INA = 13, not 16.

Eidolons have a base Natural Armor of 2, and the Imp. Natural Armor Evolution adds +2.
10 + 2 DEX + 4 NA = 16

[borg286]

Here are some notes you may like to add to your handbook.
Please update Baby Hecatoncheires entry to mention this weapon. If you're purchasing Weapon Training then either a Sickle (1d6 /x2, light) or a Morningstar (1d8 /x2, 1h) due to being limited to simple weapons. If you're willing to take the non-proficiency penalties then might as well go exotic. Here is some analysis: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...?topic=13095.0
Aklys 1d8 (/×2) light

Some good things to have on
scroll

• Summon Eidolon (cast summon monster, then cast this spell to have both in play in a pinch)
• Transmogrify
• Endure Elements
• Invisibility
• See Invisibility
• Spider Climb
• Dimension Door or Teleport

wands

• Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser

Here are my notes on summon monster hightlights

Summon monster 1

• Eagle: Hard hitter

Summon monster 2

• Monstrous spider: Touch attack, Standard action to get free, Tremorsense
• Mud elemental: +5(1d6+3+entrap(DC 12 or entangled(Full round action Str check to break free, same DC) Second entrap upgrades to helpless and +5 DC)
• Lightning elemental: vs. foes with metal gets +8(1d4+1d3), +10 trip/disarm, Fly 100(perfect)
• Fire elemental: +4(1d4 +burn(DC 11 or catch fire for 1d6 turns(at start of foe's turn take 1d4. Drop and roll as full round action giving +4 to save)))

Summon monster 3

• Dretch: Stinking cloud(DC 13, 20' radius, 2 rounds, Nauseates + 1d4+1 rounds thereafter)
• Lantern Archon: DR 10/evil, Greater teleport (50 lbs of stuff), Ranged touch attack 2x +3(1d6) pierces any DR, Aura of Menace(20' radius DC 13 or get -2 attack, AC, saves), Aid at will 3 minutes +1 moral bonus to attack on touched creature
• Leopard: +6(1d6+3+grab), 2x +6(1d3+3), Pounce, Rake

Summon monster 4

• Hound Archon: Aura of menace(DC 16), +9/+4(2d6+3), bite +3(1d8+2), Aid at will(6 minutes), Magic circle against evil(+2 AC, +2 saves, 2 saves vs. enchantment/mental @+2 morale bonus, no natural evil attacks work vs him)
• Mephits:
  
  • Air*: gust of wind
  • Dust&: wind wall
  • Earth*: soften earth and stone
  • Fire*: scorching ray, heat metal
  • Ice&: Magic missile, chill metal
  • Lightning*: Magic missile, chill metal, breath weapon deals 2 more damage to those wearing metal)
  • Magma*: pyrotechnics
  • Ooze&: Acid arrow, stinking cloud
  • Salt*: glitterdust, breath weapon deals 2d8)
  • Smoke: Ember storm(20' radius, 2d6 fire, DC 14 reflex for 1/2), Breath weapon(-4 AC -2 attack DC 12 con for 1/2 and no penalty)
  • Steam&: Boiling rain(20' square, 2d6 fire, DC 14 fort for 1/2)
  • Water*: Acid arrow, stinking cloud
  • *) breath weapon (15' cone, 1d8 typed, DC 13 reflex for 1/2)
  • &) breath weapon (15' cone, 1d4 typed + sickened (–2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks), DC 13 reflex for 1/2 and no sickened)
• Lion: +7(1d8+5+grab), 2x claw +7(1d4+5), Pounce, rake
• Dire wolves: Summon in flanking wolves and tripping is awesome

Summon monster 5

• Bralani Azata: 2/day Cure serious wounds, Whirlwind Blast(reflex DC 17 for 1/2 of 3d6 in 20' line), Mirror image(1d4 copies occupy his square and might be the target of foes attacks), Blur(20% miss), Lightning bolt(6d6 ref 16 for 1/2 120' line)
• Babau: darkness, dispel magic(CL7), See invisibility, +12/7@reach (1d8+7) +2d6 SA
• Large Elemental

Summon monster 6

• Dire tiger: Pounce
• Lillend Azata: 3/day: Hallucinatory Terrain, Knock, 2/day: Cure Serious Wounds, Hold Person, 5/day: Cure light wounds, identify, Bardic Performance(+2 saves, attack, damage)
• Shadow Demon: Shadow Conjuration(probably can't summon illusions of creatures, but objects and imitating other spells yes), Shadow Evocation. (This needs another section on what would be useful at this level, probably not much useful with a 3rd level cap)
• Succubus: Energy drain, Dominate(DC 23), Charm monster(DC 22)

Summon monster 7

• Bone Devil: dimensional anchor, major image (DC 17), wall of ice
• Tyrannosaurus: +20 (4d6+22/19–20 plus grab), reach 20', swallow whole
• Greater Elemental

Summon monster 8

• Barbed Devil: @will: scorching ray (2 rays only), 1/day—order's wrath (DC 18), unholy blight (DC 18)
• Elder Elemental: Powerful, versatile beatstick.

Summon monster 9

• Astral deva: Protective aura 20'(+4 AC,saves vs. evil, magic cirle against evil, lesser globe of invuln. CL=15), @will: Aid, Dispel evil, dispel magic, Holy aura, Holy smite, Holy word, Remove curse, remove disease; 7/day, Cure light wounds; 1/day blade barriar, heal, +26/21/16(1d8+14) if 2 or more hit Stun for 1d6 rounds (DC 25)
• Ghaele azata: Holy Aura(evil strikers are blinded, +4 AC, saves vs. evil Protection from evil but applied against any, SR 25 vs. evil) incorporeal, SLA: Chain ligntning, Prismatic spray, Wall of force, Globe of invuln. @will, Dispel magic, aid, cure light wounds; Spells: Holy word, Banishment, Heal, True seeing, death ward, dismissal, divine power, restoration, Cure serious wounds, Bear's endurance
• Ice devil: Regen 5, +21/16/11(2d6+10/x3+1d6 cold+slow for 1d6 rounds), +14(2d6+6), +14(3d6+3+slow), 10' reach, @will: cone of cold, Ice storm, Persistent Image, wall of ice
• Trumpet archon: Aura of Menace(DC 22 or -2 AC, saves, attacks until you hit archon (easy for my allies), magic circle against evil), Spells: Mass cure serious wounds, Banishment, Heal, Dispel Evil, Mass cure light wounds, Plane shift, dissmisal, divine power, Spell immunity, cure serious wounds, daylight, Invisibility purge, Bull's strength, Divine favor, Bless, Cure light wounds

I think you should expand on some of the chains giving the summoner the versatility he needs. Most of the time the abilities take advantage of skills/spells that are very scenario specific. Some chains are
Summon Monster -> Mephits -> (see above)
Summon Monster -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hBk/edit?pli=1
Evolution Surge -> Skilled -> UMD -> Wand,scroll (see http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...3144#msg443144 )
Evolution Surge -> Skilled -> Knowledge(x), Sleight of Hand

You should also add a section about the Archetypes and when you should/shouldn't take them. Most of the time they are a net loss. Probably a section devoted to the Synthesist is in order. Make sure to mention it's pros and cons, and say that all rants about it should be done in another thread.

[Xaragos]

Nice thread!

Question: What is the specific rule that states a biped gain reach on attacks with enlarge or increased size vs the other types not gaining that? What if a quad has the evo for arms like in the centaur build?

[Barstro]

Nice thread!

Question: What is the specific rule that states a biped gain reach on attacks with enlarge or increased size vs the other types not gaining that? What if a quad has the evo for arms like in the centaur build?

These templates demonstrate the difference between Large-Long (Quadruped) and Large-Tall (Biped).

A Quadruped with arms is still a "long" animal that does not get reach at "Large". There is no rule that Limbs (arm) are longer than Limbs (Leg).

[Xaragos]

These templates demonstrate the difference between Large-Long (Quadruped) and Large-Tall (Biped).

A Quadruped with arms is still a "long" animal that does not get reach at "Large". There is no rule that Limbs (arm) are longer than Limbs (Leg).

Thanks for the link. Do you have a link where it says that eidolon quadrupeds are considered large long when enhanced in that way? Appreciate it!

[grarrrg]

Thanks for the link. Do you have a link where it says that eidolon quadrupeds are considered large long when enhanced in that way? Appreciate it!

While not exactly what was asked for, read the Large Evolution entry:
"If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total."
And if upgraded to Huge Evolution:
"If the eidolon has the biped base form, its reach increases to 15 feet (10 feet for all other base forms)."

This matches up with the "long/tall" reach differences.

[quincho78]

Hello,
I have a question concerning the multiple summon monsters and see if anyone can help me.

Summon monster I indicates that one can summon a monster from the list at any place you designate within range. Now, if I use SMII to summon 1d3 monsters, all out of a single location or summoner can choose the place for every monster?

I did not find any rule specifying that no minor detail.

Hopefully you can help me.

Greetings.

[Barstro]

Hello,
I have a question concerning the multiple summon monsters and see if anyone can help me.

Summon monster I indicates that one can summon a monster from the list at any place you designate within range. Now, if I use SMII to summon 1d3 monsters, all out of a single location or summoner can choose the place for every monster?

The way I have seen it done (no rule to cite, sadly), is that the summoner decides where they go upon their appearance.

While that makes little sense to me when the spell is a full round action (since the caster would not know how many are going to appear until the next round and would not know where they can be placed (plus, that gives people time to move)) it makes sense for a Summoner who can do it as a standard action.

Note that unless you are summoning creatures less than "small", they cannot come out of a single location since they won't all fit on the square.

[Akal Saris]

Quick question (no right or wrong answers here):

For a kali build using the dwarven chain axe (which is a 1-handed reach weapon after feats), which seems more valuable: quadruped for pounce, or biped for increased reach from size (enlarge person with share spell from summoner, or otherwise the large evolution). 20-ft reach with combat reflexes would seem to win out over pounce in my view.

[upho]

Quick question (no right or wrong answers here):

For a kali build using the dwarven chain axe (which is a 1-handed reach weapon after feats), which seems more valuable: quadruped for pounce, or biped for increased reach from size (enlarge person with share spell from summoner, or otherwise the large evolution). 20-ft reach with combat reflexes would seem to win out over pounce in my view.

This of course depends very much on level, your party composition, play style etc. But generally speaking, I'd say if you invest in reach (as this eidolon has), you want to get as much out of that investment as possible. In this case, that means the eidolon should probably prioritize getting more and better AoOs (stuff likes Combat Reflexes, somewhat higher dex priority etc) and other components which benefit from reach. Which naturally in turn makes further reach investments (such as Lunge and especially size increase evos) more valuable. From this follows that if you're looking to use the reach mostly for the tactical benefits (as it can be an effective kind of "soft" battlefield control), in most cases and in the long run I'd say biped is more valuable than quadruped and pounce. If, on the other hand, you're looking for straight up maximizing the eidolon's actual solo one-shot capacity, skipping the chain axe investments and going for pounce is probably better for a kalidolon.

I hope this was the type of input you were looking for.

[Elder_Basilisk]

What do you think of teamwork feats for a flank buddy/Kali build? (OK, so there are only a few worthwhile teamwork feats, but some of the worthwhile ones can be very good).

For example, if you take Precise Strike on your summoner and on the Eidelon, each of both yours and the Eidelon's attacks will get another +1d6 precision damage on each attack when you flank with each other. It's probably not enough to make DR issues go away, but it would make the Kali ginsu through monsters even more quickly.

Another example: Intercept Charge would enable your Eidelon to intercept a charging enemy meant for you as an immediate action for an action economy effect similar to pounce (full attack for the Eidelon, not for the attacker).

[Grasharm]

What do you think of teamwork feats for a flank buddy/Kali build? (OK, so there are only a few worthwhile teamwork feats, but some of the worthwhile ones can be very good).

For example, if you take Precise Strike on your summoner and on the Eidelon, each of both yours and the Eidelon's attacks will get another +1d6 precision damage on each attack when you flank with each other. It's probably not enough to make DR issues go away, but it would make the Kali ginsu through monsters even more quickly.

Another example: Intercept Charge would enable your Eidelon to intercept a charging enemy meant for you as an immediate action for an action economy effect similar to pounce (full attack for the Eidelon, not for the attacker).

I've tried it though admittedly not lately and I"ll tell you the biggest issues I had.

1) Keep in mind your Eidelon is only getting one feat every 3 levels or 8 feats total. That seems like a lot but keep in mind most feats are arranged in trees this means you are effectively delaying the bonus for a later feat in a feat tree 3 levels. Make sure it's worth the time. Also you are spending one of your summoner's feats as well. Do you have room for that in your build? Is your summoner going to have to take the feat before your eidelon or the other way around? If so that character is going to have a useless feat rattling around for those levels.

2) Some of these feats are very situational. That isn't horrible if your a fighter with a huge number of feats or you have an empty feat slot that you can fill with something else but if your getting rid of a feat that you would use constantly for one that is situational you had better be sure that situation is going to happen. For example how often is your summoner going to get charged? Is it something that happens regularly in your game or do things tend to charge the fighter or cleric? In that case intercept charge isn't going to help much unless one of those characters is going to take it as well. With precise strike you have to consider how fragile your eidelon is. If he's a glass cannon like most Kali types he is going to last about 6 round of combat. More with healing. is that worth a feat.

And that brings me to my next point. You say your doing a flank buddy/Kali type. That is a very difficult build. For Kali you want to be outputting damage. The Kali type is all about rushing the front lines and doing a massive series of nova attacks before your eidelon is put down and you whip out the beatstick that is your summon monster ability. The name of the game is damage and any point not spent maximizing that is a point wasted. Where as the flank buddy eidelon is all about giving bonuses and having staying power to keep those bonuses active. He want's to be small for the bonuses to defense and skills. He doesn't care about what his damage output is because he isn't the star it's the fighters and rouges that are getting all those aid another actions that are the stars. He's slipping between defenders and setting up his allies to topple his foes. He is all about his reach to maximize this threatened area, shield ally abilities and feats like bodyguard to allow him to aid another as an aoo. Merging these almost completely opposite philosophies is going to be very difficult and will likely result in sub-par performance.

Some additional advice: Keep in mind you aren't locked into one eidelon build. If you want you can be a flank buddy for the first 8 levels then when you hit level nine and have the money you can wake up the next morning and deiced I am going to redesign my summoning ritual so that now I summon a Kali type but your feat and skill choices are locked so keep that in mind

Also you mentioned the going broke/dr problem of Kali types. If your willing to give up your body and neck slots to your eidelon get him a monks robe to let him punch for 1d8 and then give him an amulet of mighty fists. At +3 it not only make the unarmed attacks count as magic but they can overcome silver and cold iron dr, at +4 it can over come dr that requires adamantine as well and at +5 it also overcomes alignment dr. but your looking at 13k just for the robe and another 100k if you want a +5 amulet of mighty fists. Though the great thing about this is you don't need to burn a feat on a weapon prof. to get d8 damage.

[Fioppo]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum ;)
Sorry in advance for my not perfect english, but I'm Italian ;)

Btw, I'm starting a new PF campaign, and I'm planning to role an Half-Elf Summoner, so here a couple of question I have:

I'm planning to use a Biped form, and I really dont know if go only for natural attack, or for weapon, or for both..for sure I'll put 4 arms (and wings too later..), so my options are:
1) use 4 bastard sword (PRO: high dmg, CONS: tons of MO for those sword!!).
2) use 2 greatsword (here the problem is that I have -4 to hit due to 2 weapon fight...
So I was thinking of: use only 1 greatsword (with 2 hand of course), for no penalties, and then use 2 claws+2 on the legs and go for mixed weapon/natural. I should have no penalties for my weapons attack, and -5 (-2 with the multiattack feast) for the natural one, am i right?

I can take reach (weapon) so I can hit longer with my greatsword, and then focus on claws with improved damage, rend and so on...

What do u think? Is it decent or not?
Keep in mind that I'm allowed to use ONLY the 2 core players book (and well, the 1st bestiary), so very limited option ;)

[Grasharm]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum ;)
Sorry in advance for my not perfect english, but I'm Italian ;)

Btw, I'm starting a new PF campaign, and I'm planning to role an Half-Elf Summoner, so here a couple of question I have:

I'm planning to use a Biped form, and I really dont know if go only for natural attack, or for weapon, or for both..for sure I'll put 4 arms (and wings too later..), so my options are:
1) use 4 bastard sword (PRO: high dmg, CONS: tons of MO for those sword!!).
2) use 2 greatsword (here the problem is that I have -4 to hit due to 2 weapon fight...
So I was thinking of: use only 1 greatsword (with 2 hand of course), for no penalties, and then use 2 claws+2 on the legs and go for mixed weapon/natural. I should have no penalties for my weapons attack, and -5 (-2 with the multiattack feast) for the natural one, am i right?

I can take reach (weapon) so I can hit longer with my greatsword, and then focus on claws with improved damage, rend and so on...

What do u think? Is it decent or not?
Keep in mind that I'm allowed to use ONLY the 2 core players book (and well, the 1st bestiary), so very limited option ;)

I'm sorry to say you are wrong in a few places.

The rules for combining natural attacks with weapon attacks is as follows.

You treat the attacks as if you where wielding two weapons with all natural weapons counting as light weapons. Any natural attacks you have are considered secondary attacks even if they would normally be primary attacks so they are at -5(-2 with multiattack) to hit and half strength bonus in addition to the -2 to offhand weapon penalty for two weapon fighting. So with two weapon fighting and multiattack your penalties would be -2 greatsword (main attack), apply strength 1.5 times (two handed weapon), -4 claws (secondary natural attack & off hand attack), use only half strength mod. (secondary natural attack/off hand attack)

I am uncertain where your getting the +2 on your claws from so I may be off. If you can explain that bonus better than that may change things.

Also talk to your gm and he might allow it but reach must be applied to one of the eidelon's attacks. The sword is not one of your eidolon's attacks, it is a weapon he uses but this seems like something your gm might allow if you talk to him/her. Another problem with the reach evolution is it only applies to one attack not one type of attack like energy attacks so if you were to apply it to your claws you would have to choose one claw to have reach or take it twice for both claws.

Since your doing Biped at better way to get reach is just to take the large evolution as that will give him reach for all of his attack plus all the bonuses that being large gives.

Hope I helped and didn't kill your build too much. If you want to post a general idea of what you want your eidolon to be able to do maybe I can suggest things to get you where you want to go. For instance, (I hate bringing this up as I think once people start thinking along these lines it tends to kill imagination of things outside this but it's a good starting point..*sigh* they are iconic for a reason) do you want him to help fill one of the 4 iconic roles in a party: Meat-shield, Damage, Skill Monkey or healer. I will point out healer is nearly impossible... nearly.

[grarrrg]

I'm sorry to say you are wrong in a few places.

I'm sorry to say that YOU are wrong in a few places.

You treat the attacks as if you where wielding two weapons with all natural weapons counting as light weapons. Any natural attacks you have are considered secondary attacks even if they would normally be primary attacks so they are at -5(-2 with multiattack) to hit and half strength bonus in addition to the -2 to offhand weapon penalty for two weapon fighting. So with two weapon fighting and multiattack your penalties would be -2 greatsword (main attack), apply strength 1.5 times (two handed weapon), -4 claws (secondary natural attack & off hand attack), use only half strength mod. (secondary natural attack/off hand attack)

Natural Attacks are NOT affected by Two-Weapon Fighting, only Manufactured Weapons are.
Natural Attacks are NEVER Off-Hand attacks, they are either Primary or Secondary (and are all considered Secondary if you are using a Manufactured Weapon).
Manufactured Weapons are not affected if you are using Natural Attacks as well.

End result of Sword+Claws is that the Sword is used "normal", and the Claws are Secondary and get -5 (-2 with feat) to-hit and 1/2 STR to damage.
If TWF+Claws, the Swords are "as normal", and the Claws are still Secondary with -5 (-2) to-hit and blah blah...

Lastly, Natural Attacks are only considered Light Weapons when something specifically says so, the Weapon Finesse Feat for example. For all normal purposes they are practically identical to 1-handed weapons (i.e. Primary Natural Attacks get -1/+2 returns from Power Attack).

I am uncertain where your getting the +2 on your claws from so I may be off. If you can explain that bonus better than that may change things.

He said he wanted 4 arms.
For the 3rd option he would 2-hand a Sword, and "then use 2 claws+2 on the legs", meaning he would put 2 Claws on the other Arms and 2 Claws on the Legs.
End result of a 2-hand Sword and 4 Claws.

Also talk to your gm and he might allow it but reach must be applied to one of the eidelon's attacks. The sword is not one of your eidolon's attacks, it is a weapon he uses but this seems like something your gm might allow if you talk to him/her. Another problem with the reach evolution is it only applies to one attack not one type of attack like energy attacks so if you were to apply it to your claws you would have to choose one claw to have reach or take it twice for both claws.

Since your doing Biped at better way to get reach is just to take the large evolution as that will give him reach for all of his attack plus all the bonuses that being large gives.

Agreed (except that the Reach Evolution can only be taken once).
By RAW Reach Evolution can't affect Manufactured Weapons, but there is solid enough reasoning why it should work.
And Large is practically mandatory for beatsticks.

[Grasharm]

I double checked with the Core Rulebook. On page 182, last paragraph of the right hand column states, "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties." but it turns out we are both kind of right. A little more research reveals that the bestiary backs up your claim.

So a little more digging and you find out that James Jacobs has said the bestiary is right while Jason Bulmahn espouses the core mechanic and there is no "official" response from the design team yet. The closest is in a post about monks where there is an official ruling that natural attacks count as light weapons even though it never officially called out in the rules. In short not even Pathfinder itself is agreed on this point. Guess it's a take it up with your gm thing.

True enough on the reach though since you can only take each evolution once unless otherwise noted and reach doesn't have such an exception but again this is one can be fixed by the GM.

[Draco18s]

So, this thread is 28 pages long (and a year old)... I've got one question and trying to search the thread is difficult.
(Opening post quoted, trimmed, spoilers redacted down to relevant information).

Eidolons

Sample Builds

Here are some low-level (and not-so-low-level) Eidolon builds to get you started. Submissions welcome.

Pouncer (1st-Level)
Evolutions (extra): Claws (1), Pounce (1), Improved Natural Armour (1)

Slugger (1st-Level)
Evolutions (extra): Reach (weapon, 1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)

Ripper (1st-Level)
Evolutions (extra): Bite (1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)

Flank Buddy (1st Level) - Contributed by Elyza
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Skilled(Perception)(1), Imp Nat Armor(1)

Mounted Dragon-In-Training (1st level) - Contributed by Torinath
Evolutions (extra): Ability Increase(Str)(2), Mount(1)

Kitty! (1st level) - Contributed by erik542
Evos: Claws, pounce, Improved damage (claws)

Tank-dalon (1st level) - Contributed by nategar05
Evolutions (extra): Improved Natural Armor(1), Skilled(Intimidate)(1), Skilled(Diplomacy)(1)

Every single one of those sample builds (seven!) has the 1st level eidolon utilizing 3 evolution points. How? HOW? You only get 1 point at level 1, +1 for Extra Evolution which can only be taken once at level 1 (and not again until 5th) and the eidolon itself can't take the feat (it doesn't have the eidolon class feature: it is the eidolon class feature). That makes 2 points. Where are you guys pulling a third from?

[stack]

So, this thread is 28 pages long (and a year old)... I've got one question and trying to search the thread is difficult.
(Opening post quoted, trimmed, spoilers redacted down to relevant information).



Every single one of those sample builds (seven!) has the 1st level eidolon utilizing 3 evolution points. How? HOW? You only get 1 point at level 1, +1 for Extra Evolution which can only be taken once at level 1 (and not again until 5th) and the eidolon itself can't take the feat (it doesn't have the eidolon class feature: it is the eidolon class feature). That makes 2 points. Where are you guys pulling a third from?

Normal Eidolons start with 3. Unchained summoners get eidolons that start with only 1, but have more base evolutions.

This guide predates unchained.

[Draco18s]

Normal Eidolons start with 3. Unchained summoners get eidolons that start with only 1, but have more base evolutions.

This guide predates unchained.

Ah ha, that does it. I didn't notice how old the thread actually was until after I posted.
Still don't know how old Unchained is, but that explains things. Still a useful guild though.

[Cookie03]

I know theres been 8 years since the last post so I'm hoping I can still get some help on this but; I was looking at erik542's 'Kitty" build and noticed the feats he took for it were Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Charge Through, Greater Overrun. I'm fairly new so I was wondering how these feats work with the build and how an example, round of attacking would function, I assumed it would be to pounce and make claw attacks but the overrun and charge through feats make me feel like there's obviously going to be more to it, could someone explain to me the idea behind this?

[khadgar567]

I know theres been 8 years since the last post so I'm hoping I can still get some help on this but; I was looking at erik542's 'Kitty" build and noticed the feats he took for it were Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Charge Through, Greater Overrun. I'm fairly new so I was wondering how these feats work with the build and how an example, round of attacking would function, I assumed it would be to pounce and make claw attacks but the overrun and charge through feats make me feel like there's obviously going to be more to it, could someone explain to me the idea behind this?

link to build would be nice but if i remember correctly pounce is evolution and rest is basicly pounce barbarian stuff