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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by garydoho View Post
    Can the Evolution Surge spells be applied to aspect?
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    Aspect
    At 10th level, a summoner can divert up to 2 points from his eidolonís evolution pool to add evolutions to himself. He cannot select any evolution that the eidolon could not possess, and he must be able to meet the requirements as well. He cannot select the ability increase evolution through this ability. Any points spent in this way are taken from the eidolonís evolution pool (reducing the total number available to the eidolon). The summoner can change the evolutions he receives from these points any time he can change the eidolonís evolutions.
    Evolution Surge
    You can grant the eidolon any evolution whose total cost does not exceed 2 evolution points. You may only grant one evolution with this spell, even if that evolution can be taken multiple times.


    Evolution Surge specifically targets the Eidolon, and grants them any ONE evolution worth up to 2 points (more points/evolutions Lesser>normal>Greater).
    The Surge spells grant Evolutions NOT Evolution Points, so I would say they have no effect on Aspect, because there are no Points actually being added. Also, you are not changing the Eidolons evolutions, so Aspect will not let you reshuffle the points spent on yourself.
    On a related note Transmogrify explicitly works with Aspect, but, again, since Surge does not grant actual points you will not be able to effect Surge granted abilities (you may be able to talk your DM into letting you change your Surge ability for a different Surge ability though).

    Just had an evil thought. NOTE: The following (possibly) works by RAW, but any sane DM will say NO.
    Use Evolution Surge to give your Eidolon an ability (let's say "Tail"), then use Transmogrify to shuffle your points around and take an ability related to the first one (let's say "Sting" or "Tail Slap").
    After X minutes your Eidolon loses the Surge granted ability, but retains the Transmogrified abilities.
    Thus it now has Tail attacks, but no actual Tail (or Wing Buffet with no Wings, or...)
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-04-26 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Edit: trick does not work

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    (Copy/paste) Just had an evil thought. NOTE: The following (possibly) works by RAW, but any sane DM will say NO.
    Use Evolution Surge to give your Eidolon an ability (let's say "Tail"), then use Transmogrify to shuffle your points around and take an ability related to the first one (let's say "Sting" or "Tail Slap").
    After X minutes your Eidolon loses the Surge granted ability, but retains the Transmogrified abilities.
    Thus it now has Tail attacks, but no actual Tail (or Wing Buffet with no Wings, or...)
    There may still be an issue with that. The casting time for Transmogrify is 1 hour. The surges only last 1 min/level. If the surge spell needs to be in effect during the entire casting time then even if it was extended you'd need to be 30th level to pull it off - unless there's something that either can further extend the surge spell or lessen the transmogrify casting time.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by garydoho View Post
    The casting time for Transmogrify is 1 hour. The surges only last 1 min/level.
    Wow.
    I completely glossed over casting time.

    Please disregard previous statement.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I just wanted to say that this is an absolutely wonderful resource. I don't know if you've checked Google recently but this guide is pegged at #1 for Pathfinder summoners and rightfully so. Brilliant, brilliant work. I've never seen such a complicated class laid out in such an easy to understand way. Bravo.


    One small question about the guide: in your "ripper" example, you chose to spend points on Bite, Reach (Bite), and Improved Damage (Bite). However, if you choose instead Limbs (arms) and Claws (arms), you spend the same number of evolution points and gain one attack. (Additionally, all of your attack-specific choices, like Improved Natural Attack, now apply to all attacks instead of all attacks except Bite.) Just wondering about that choice. I know that you are often limited in the total number of natural attacks, but it still seemed like erring on the side of too many limbs would be better than a bite (especially since that final limb can always carry something, like a shield perhaps?). This perhaps steps on the toes of the "Kali" build but I think there's definite overlap there.


    I also had a few questions about the eidolon class feature and wondered if anyone had any insights. Due to the fact that an eidolon cannot heal naturally, it always gets summoned with its previous HP total, and if it dies it is summoned the next day with 1/2 HP, does it not seem odd that the most efficient way to heal your eidolon at the end of the day if it has fewer than half its HP is to kill it outright? (It goes away while you sleep anyway.) This seems quite against the spirit of the rule (and must lead to some odd roleplaying situations), but I cannot figure out a better way to heal the thing (especially since wand charges are expensive). Any thoughts?

    Another strange rule interaction is the idea that your eidolon doesn't disappear when it goes into negative HP. It actually becomes a liability at that point, since you have to spend a standard action to unsummon it so you can switch to using your summon monster spell-like abilities. Additionally, the Life Link ability is useless in this case - when that is exactly the sort of case that you would want an ability like Life Link for! Life Link in general also seems like it would never be worth it, since the only time you would really use it is when your eidolon went from positive HP to less than -13 in one hit... and reversing that will cost the summoner at least 14 HP, which is quite a lot. Especially at low levels, this could never be worth it (especially since if the summoner goes down the eidolon goes down too!). This doesn't make as much sense to me.


    Overall, I have been quite inspired by this guide! I'm still trying to decide between what I see as the two strongest eidolon models: a quadruped pouncer with a million attacks (the "killer centaur") or a biped reacher who controls the field. The pouncer is spectacular at single-target, repeatable burst damage, but the reacher can easily shut down all enemy movement (or at least make it difficult) even at very early levels. At level 1 you can take Reach (claws) and use Enlarge Person to give yourself a 10x10 eidolon with a 15' reach. That's a lot of control! I've seen high-reach monsters in play before and they are pretty amazing, even if their damage is low.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Glad it's helpful!

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    One small question about the guide: in your "ripper" example, you chose to spend points on Bite, Reach (Bite), and Improved Damage (Bite). However, if you choose instead Limbs (arms) and Claws (arms), you spend the same number of evolution points and gain one attack. (Additionally, all of your attack-specific choices, like Improved Natural Attack, now apply to all attacks instead of all attacks except Bite.) Just wondering about that choice. I know that you are often limited in the total number of natural attacks, but it still seemed like erring on the side of too many limbs would be better than a bite (especially since that final limb can always carry something, like a shield perhaps?). This perhaps steps on the toes of the "Kali" build but I think there's definite overlap there.
    It's the number of natural attacks cap - you can't get 4 natural attacks until you hit level 4, and the sample builds are all level 1. You can reconfigure your Eidolon at each level, though, so it's not like you're losing anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    I also had a few questions about the eidolon class feature and wondered if anyone had any insights. Due to the fact that an eidolon cannot heal naturally, it always gets summoned with its previous HP total, and if it dies it is summoned the next day with 1/2 HP, does it not seem odd that the most efficient way to heal your eidolon at the end of the day if it has fewer than half its HP is to kill it outright? (It goes away while you sleep anyway.) This seems quite against the spirit of the rule (and must lead to some odd roleplaying situations), but I cannot figure out a better way to heal the thing (especially since wand charges are expensive). Any thoughts?
    Yeah, it's one of the very weird features of the eidolon class - ordering your eidolon to commit seppuku at the end of the day actually IS the cheapest way of healing it. Of course, a wand of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon isn't really all that expensive once you go up a few levels, so you're only saving yourself a few dozen gold pieces.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    It's the number of natural attacks cap - you can't get 4 natural attacks until you hit level 4, and the sample builds are all level 1. You can reconfigure your Eidolon at each level, though, so it's not like you're losing anything.
    Right. I was just saying that once you get enough points to spend on Bite and all its upgrades, it seems more efficient to just get another pair of arms with claws. Even if you go over your natural attack limit, having an extra hand around can't hurt. :) Plus, you don't have to spread your feats around as much (like Imp. Nat. Attack). Grabbing a MW light shield for that spare arm is a pretty good deal as well (assuming you're not spamming the Shield spell) since that's a free +1 to AC. (And eventually, a +2 mithral heavy shield or better would remove the need to spam the spell.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Yeah, it's one of the very weird features of the eidolon class - ordering your eidolon to commit seppuku at the end of the day actually IS the cheapest way of healing it.
    This is probably one of the oddest things about the class. Between this and the fact that there are more "evil" summon monsters than good, summoners seem to lend themselves more naturally to a slightly darker play style.


    One other small note about this excellent guide:
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    A 6th-level summoner with an 18 Charisma gets 9 spells per day of 1st-level and over. By comparison, a specialist Wizard gets 14, and a Sorcerer 17. You will run out, and you'll do it often.
    At the same time, the 6th-level summoner also gets 7 summon monster III spells that are automatically extended (well, more than extended). Granted, sorcerers and wizards don't have to stable any major class features in order to access all of their spells, but technically a 6th level summoner does have 16 spells. This disparity actually works to the summoner's advantage at low levels (everyone starts with a tiny handful of spells while you potentially have over 9) but past level 6 it reverses and the difference will be much more pronounced, since the bonus summon monster spells are a (basically) static number.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    More questions:
    Would "being killed" be considered a permanent condition for the effects of the purified summoning spell? It certainly seems temporary (since it returns the next day).

    If this is the case, (once you get rich) a wand of purified summoning would be a good investment (although I don't know if it would cost 24k or 30k). It's not good for in-battle use or for simple healing, but you could bring your ally back after every battle in which it was sent away. Also, it might be nice for ability damage and other nasty effects since there doesn't seem to be any other way of solving those problems normally.

    Speaking of which: how are you supposed to solve those problems before you get to level 10? Some of the suggestions I've seen seem a bit cruel (effectively: you're screwed until you level up).

    Also, another thing I'm confused about is the summon eidolon spell when the eidolon has been slain. It is "summoned normally" but that makes no sense, as the eidolon has no HP (and doesn't regain half until the next day). How have people been handling this issue?

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    More questions:
    Would "being killed" be considered a permanent condition for the effects of the purified summoning spell? It certainly seems temporary (since it returns the next day).

    If this is the case, (once you get rich) a wand of purified summoning would be a good investment (although I don't know if it would cost 24k or 30k). It's not good for in-battle use or for simple healing, but you could bring your ally back after every battle in which it was sent away. Also, it might be nice for ability damage and other nasty effects since there doesn't seem to be any other way of solving those problems normally.

    Speaking of which: how are you supposed to solve those problems before you get to level 10? Some of the suggestions I've seen seem a bit cruel (effectively: you're screwed until you level up).

    Also, another thing I'm confused about is the summon eidolon spell when the eidolon has been slain. It is "summoned normally" but that makes no sense, as the eidolon has no HP (and doesn't regain half until the next day). How have people been handling this issue?
    Well, when your eidolon is killed, you can do the ritual and it comes out the next day at half hp. So I'd expect the spell would bring it out at half hp. Purified calling would be treated similarly.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I've recently become interested in playing a Summoner, much inspired by this thread. I'm interested in playing a Saurian Summoner who has a snake-like eidolon. I'm kind of interested in giving him arms so he can possibly grapple and attack, kind of like a multi-armed D&D Salamander I suppose. Is there any really effective way to do this? I'm also interested in any ideas you guys can throw my way. It'll be my first summoner of course and the whole eidolon building process is kind of intimidating at this point.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Psionic Race Review update (and three more 3rd party)
    Dromites are Xeph are the 'winners', a couple situationally useful races, and a lot of stinkers.

    Note: All psionic races receive Wild Talent as a bonus feat, which gives them 2 Power Points. While this does nothing on its own, it does open up Psionic feats and such as options.

    Blue +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, can spend Points instead of eating. Rating: Meh. Nothing good, nothing bad.

    Dromite Same stats/size as Halfling, gets +1 nat. armor, and 5 energy resistance, and the Scent ability. Rating: Okay/Good, about the same as Halfling.

    Duergar Virtually the same as a Dwarf. Rating: Awful.

    Elan +2 any stat, can spend Points for temp increase in Saves, reduced damage from an attack, or to skip eating. Rating: Okay, you could do plenty worse, but nothing that really helps a Summoner.

    Half-Giant +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, racials are so-so, notably has Powerful Build which is much more useful for melee-types. Rating: Meh, nothing good, nothing bad.

    Maenad +2 any stat, racials are mainly geared towards Rage. Rating: Meh, nothing good, nothing bad.

    Ophiduan +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, +1 nat armor. The rest of the racials aren't anything special. Rating: Awful.

    Xeph Same stats as Halfling, but medium size. +1 to (most) saving throws, and Burst of Speed. Rating: Good/Okay

    3rd Party

    High Goblin No, just, no. Stat bonuses and penalties in all the wrong places (-2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha), Racial bonuses are nothing special. Rating: Awful.

    Oakling Similar stat bonuses as Dwarves, +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Racials bonuses and Racial Feats are interesting, but seem more geared toward melee fighting. Rating: Awful, unless building a Flank-Buddy Summoner (which still only reaches "Okay" at best)

    Lizardfolk +2 Con, -2 Int are decent stats. Racial bonuses/feats consist of Swimming, and Natural Attacks. In general rate as Meh, no real bonus/penalty to being a Summoner. Their value greatly improves in an Aquatic campaign however.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-05-01 at 10:20 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rul...onsters-as-pcsMonster PC's update:

    Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, and Acid/Cold/Elec Resist 5. Rating: Good

    Changeling: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con, +1 nat armor, and claw attacks. Rating: Okay.

    Dhampir: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, has reversed reaction to Channeled Energy, and undead related racials. Rating: Okay.

    Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, some decent racials, and Light Blindness. Rating: Okay

    Drow Noble: Same as Drow with the following changes; +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, Ė2 Con, +5 better Spell Resistance, and have access to a variety of low level spells AT-WILL.
    Rating: Excellent, but only because it is overpowered compared to all the other race choices (net +8 to stats!?). Most DM's should not allow this 'as-is'.

    Duergar: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Cha, decent racials. Rating: Awful, -4 Cha??

    Fetchling: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, Cold/Electric Resistance 5, improved miss chance in low light. Rating: Good/borderline Excellent, stat adjusts are almost perfect.

    Gillman: +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, racials give water breathing, water dependence, and ENSLAVED. Rating: Despite having PERFECT stats, Meh/Awful due to the water dependence. In an aquatic campaign, they easily shoot up to Excellent.

    Goblin: +4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha, racials are meh. Rating: Awful.

    Grippli: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, Climb speed and swamp familiarity. Rating: Meh, nothing good/bad for a Summoner.

    Hobgoblin: +2 Dex, +2 Con, almost non-existant racials. Rating: Meh.

    Ifrit: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, Fire Resist 5, and pointless Elemental Affinity. Rating: Good, near perfect stats, and the most useful Resistance.

    Kobold: +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con, racials are meh. Rating: Meh, despite having pathetic stats and racials, there is nothing detrimental to a Summoner. (If 3.5 shenanagins are allowed, this probably becomes the best choice EVAR!!1!)

    Merfolk: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 nat armor, can breathe in water, and have a swim speed of 50ft!, but a land speed of only 5ft. (yes, a 5 foot step is the same as a Move Action). Rating: Okay/Meh on land, Excellent (or better) if Mounted or in an Aquatic campaign.

    Orc: +4 Str, -2 all mentals. Rating: Awful.

    Oread: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Acid Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity. Rating: Awful.

    Strix: +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Fly speed 60ft. (avg) Rating: Between Meh, and Good, depending on how much you value Flying (it IS on the Summoner class list).

    Svirfneblin: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, -4 Cha, +2 Dodge bonus to AC, Spell Resistance. Rating: Awful (-4 Cha?)

    Sylph: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, Electricity Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity (2 more and we can summon Captain Pointless!). Rating: Meh.

    Tengu: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, various minor racials. Rating: Meh.

    Tiefling: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Cold/Elec/Fire Resist 5, pointless Fiendish Sorcery. Rating: Okay/Meh, despite the Cha penalty, the Resists are VERY nice.

    Undine: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str, Cold Resist 5, pointless Elemental Affinity (by your powers combined, I am Captain Pointless!) Rating: Meh.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-05-02 at 10:15 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Otherworld Odd View Post
    I'm kind of interested in giving him arms so he can possibly grapple and attack, kind of like a multi-armed D&D Salamander I suppose. Is there any really effective way to do this?
    You can just give him the limbs (arms) evolution for 2 points. Although, if you want him to be able to grapple, he could probably already do that with his tail, and he can certainly attack with his tail and his bite. If you are looking for a multi-armed creature, just keep adding limbs and giving them claws or weapons or whatever.


    Another question: has anyone considered doing a small ranged-attacking serpentine eidolon? At level one it would have 20 Dex; if you gave it arms it would be able to use a bow fairly well, and it would retain the bite/tail attacks if anyone got close. Probably not optimal but maybe interesting.

    I was also wondering if any higher-level summoners have had problems with the eidolon's 3/4ths BAB and hit dice. This seems to make them slightly sub-par fighters, even with all the buffs summoners can throw around. Then again, with constant boosts to Str and Con, and the fact that once you hit level 8 it'll be large all the time may make up the difference.

    Also, a random thought: another advantage to the "reach"-style eidolon is that Shield Ally specifically works within the eidolon's reach. You could stand quite a ways away and still be protected, and at later levels your whole party would be more easily protected.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    One more question that I am sure is likely to have been hashed out somewhere and I just can't find it: the eidolon is an outsider. Outsiders, by definition, get proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. This isn't contradicted in the eidolon's entry, although it is somewhat implied due to the existence of the Weapon Training evolution (which is, in and of itself, pretty useless).

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    To grab and attack at the same time you have to take -20 on the grapple check, which isn't really an option.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    To grab and attack at the same time you have to take -20 on the grapple check, which isn't really an option.
    Would taking the Grab evolution basically negate this, though?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    No it would not.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    (I'm full of lots of questions!)
    Another question for Saph:
    Ripper (1st-Level)

    Form: Biped
    Evolutions (extra): Bite (1), Ability Increase (Strength, 2)
    Feats: Power Attack
    AC: 13
    Attack Routine (with Power Attack): Bite +4 (1d6+6) and 2 claws +4 (1d4+4)
    Buffs to Use: Mage Armour, Enlarge Person
    Why are the claw attacks only 1d4+4 damage? I was thinking they would be +6 along with the bite, since all attacks are affected by power attack, correct?

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Ok so spring boarding off of the small archer build
    Let's say I give him 6 sets of arms... Could he use 6 bows?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax the monk View Post
    Ok so spring boarding off of the small archer build
    Let's say I give him 6 sets of arms... Could he use 6 bows?
    I think the answer is yes... but you won't want to. The issue with using lots of two-handed weapons is that the attack penalties will kill you. Specifically, if your off-hand weapon isn't light (which is any weapon you're holding past the first) you suffer the full -6 / -10 penalties to attacks. I think it's the same as holding several greatswords with each set of hands. Taking Multiweapon Fighting helps, but probably not enough.

    I could be wrong, however; I'm not 100% sure the same issues apply to multiple ranged weapons, but I think they do.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    (I'm full of lots of questions!)
    Another question for Saph:

    Why are the claw attacks only 1d4+4 damage? I was thinking they would be +6 along with the bite, since all attacks are affected by power attack, correct?
    The bite's the primary natural attack, the claws are secondary, meaning they get 1/2 Str bonus to damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    I think the answer is yes... but you won't want to. The issue with using lots of two-handed weapons is that the attack penalties will kill you. Specifically, if your off-hand weapon isn't light (which is any weapon you're holding past the first) you suffer the full -6 / -10 penalties to attacks. I think it's the same as holding several greatswords with each set of hands. Taking Multiweapon Fighting helps, but probably not enough.

    I could be wrong, however; I'm not 100% sure the same issues apply to multiple ranged weapons, but I think they do.
    Going by how wielding multiple crossbows is handled, I'd say it's safe to assume that bows aren't light weapons and you'd have the -4 for all attacks with Multiweapon Fighting.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-05-04 at 01:26 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Any reason why you don't take maxxed out arms and multiweapon fight with your eidolon? It seems better than taking natural attacks anyway.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Tael View Post
    Any reason why you don't take maxxed out arms and multiweapon fight with your eidolon? It seems better than taking natural attacks anyway.
    Lots of arms need lots of weapons.
    Lots of weapons need lots of $$$$.

    That's one reason anyway.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Tael View Post
    Any reason why you don't take maxxed out arms and multiweapon fight with your eidolon? It seems better than taking natural attacks anyway.
    That's the Kali build, which Saph covered earlier.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    That's the Kali build, which Saph covered earlier.
    I know it was mentioned, but I was wondering about it's actual mechanical viability. Is it better? Worse? About the same?

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    Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    I was also wondering if any higher-level summoners have had problems with the eidolon's 3/4ths BAB and hit dice. This seems to make them slightly sub-par fighters, even with all the buffs summoners can throw around. Then again, with constant boosts to Str and Con, and the fact that once you hit level 8 it'll be large all the time may make up the difference.
    I should hope the Eidolon is a sub-par fighter, given that fighter is a class!

    You presumably didn't mean the class :P

    The BAB penalty is definitely not an issue in early play. Remember that the Eidolon is a 1/1 BAB "virtual outsider", but it has hit dice that scale as 3/4 your character level- roughly.

    Your first few levels, the Eidolon matches you in hit die. It takes until level 4 for it to take a "hit" and remain at 3. But generally, each level where you don't advance a hit die, it gains something else.


    Late game, this difference tends to matter more, as the difference is greater, and the inability to each wear a full set of magic items becomes an actual penalty.

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    Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    One more question that I am sure is likely to have been hashed out somewhere and I just can't find it: the eidolon is an outsider.
    That is actually incorrect. The eidolon counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells. It also has the same hit dice, BAB progression per hit die, saving throw progression, and skill allotment as an outsider. *Obviously* it's based on that. But, it's not an outsider, and does not gain the proficiency with simple and martial weapons.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    The bite's the primary natural attack, the claws are secondary, meaning they get 1/2 Str bonus to damage.
    I'm confused; claws are not secondary attacks - unless something makes them secondary? But if that's the case, then the earlier pouncer build is wrong, since it uses a bite and two claws and has them both at the same +4 to damage. Also, secondary attacks would suffer a -5 to-hit, and the claws don't in either example.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalcon View Post
    That is actually incorrect. The eidolon counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells. It also has the same hit dice, BAB progression per hit die, saving throw progression, and skill allotment as an outsider. *Obviously* it's based on that. But, it's not an outsider, and does not gain the proficiency with simple and martial weapons.
    This is the only way it makes sense, I agree. But eidolons are specifically called outsiders about 3 or 4 times in the summoner description - thus the confusion. Examples:
    "A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon."
    "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolonís type (outsider)."

    Now, clearly there has to be some sort of distinction - especially since I think every outsider would normally have a subtype - but nothing is in the text that I have noticed, which is what made me confused. It's not a -big- issue since I think the intent is clear (no free proficiencies!), but I wondered if I had just missed something.

    A more pertinent issue related to type comes into play when trying to disguise an eidolon. Specifically, how hard is it? Have people just assumed the eidolon is "another race" and gone with the -2 penalty? (Assuming no other major body/size modification of course.) Or do they assume other penalties? Or could you call your eidolon in the form of a human-looking creature and therefore the changes would be "very minor" (+5 bonus)?

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Tael View Post
    I know it was mentioned, but I was wondering about it's actual mechanical viability. Is it better? Worse? About the same?
    I have no experience in this but Saph's descriptions seemed to give a good context: natural attacks are great because you can have a zillion of them, but anything with DR will really hinder you. Actual weapons can get around DR easier, but you get fewer attacks, and the majority of them have to be light or else you'll suffer massive penalties to hit. Since one of the best light weapons you can use is a shortsword which only does d6 damage, you're not gaining a tremendous amount. Also, the expense is not insignificant, as Cieyrin mentioned - although if you can afford it, the more powerful weapons would certainly increase your effectiveness.

    I'm guessing natural attacks are extremely powerful at low levels, when multiple attacks are scarce and nothing really has DR. At mid levels the DR issue may become more problematic and giving your eidolon a weapon or two may be more useful. The nice thing is that you can change your mind every level! Every time you level up you can completely rebuild the eidolon from scratch (except feats) so that should give you lots of options you can try.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by evilbob View Post
    I have no experience in this but Saph's descriptions seemed to give a good context: natural attacks are great because you can have a zillion of them, but anything with DR will really hinder you. Actual weapons can get around DR easier, but you get fewer attacks, and the majority of them have to be light or else you'll suffer massive penalties to hit. Since one of the best light weapons you can use is a shortsword which only does d6 damage, you're not gaining a tremendous amount. Also, the expense is not insignificant, as Cieyrin mentioned - although if you can afford it, the more powerful weapons would certainly increase your effectiveness.

    I'm guessing natural attacks are extremely powerful at low levels, when multiple attacks are scarce and nothing really has DR. At mid levels the DR issue may become more problematic and giving your eidolon a weapon or two may be more useful. The nice thing is that you can change your mind every level! Every time you level up you can completely rebuild the eidolon from scratch (except feats) so that should give you lots of options you can try.
    Actually you don't get fewer attacks, you probably get more, but with the PF rules on Primary and Secondary, nat attacks will do more per hit, and have +2 to hit.

    Is there something I'm missing about natural attacks being enchantable? Because I don't see why everyone says weapons are more expensive.

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