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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Summon Monster sucks though, so it's really not much of a loss overall; at the levels you get it, what you can summon is grossly unable to contribute to the typical combat you'll be in - and PF stripped away all the non-combat monsters from the Summon lists, so it's not worth utility either.
    Wait, what? Did PF nerf the combat capabilities of Summon Monster too? And what non-combat monsters did PF lose?
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Wait, what? Did PF nerf the combat capabilities of Summon Monster too? And what non-combat monsters did PF lose?
    I know they lost Unicorn but I'm not sure what else got the axe.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Summon Monster still seems very solid to me I tended not to use it in 3.5 due to its potential to get out of control, but after playing a PF conjurer, it sure felt pretty powerful.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Well the main use I see for synthesist so far is the awesome dipability it rends to the class as Akal Saris demonstrated. Easy access to AC bonus, pounce, and multiattack/multiweapon fighting is great for pretty much any meleer.

    You do lose the extra actions for casting while you're fused but on the other hand: smart monsters go for the caster. Having an eidolon wrapped around you does make you substantially less squishy and you don't even have to wait for Life Bond at 14th level. Personally most games I play in don't even go that high and having a great big hp cushion on my arcane caster makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

    Not being able to cast summon monster does hurt a bit but really it's not all that different from a regular summoner. Use it as a back up when your eidolon isn't ripping things to pieces. It's a great secondary tactic but it doesn't run the show.

    I may need some enlightening on summon monster though, I thought it was more versatile than summon nature's ally? I never really played any kind of caster before pathfinder (I was always sorta sucked into the skill monkey role) so I can't compare. My pathfinder druid didn't really smoke any encounters with summoning but it was usually good enough to finish the encounter pretty easily without need any other spells.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyPirate View Post
    There are also a few other weird kinks in the fusion system, like not gaining the eidolon's speed or size. You still take advantage of their evolutions though. So a halfling synthesist would have a speed of 40 when fused with his eidolon that has 2 legs evolutions but would remain small sized even though his eidolon is medium sized. He wouldn't change size unless his eidolon also had the large evolution.
    Emphasis mine.

    But when the syntehsist takes the large evolution, it becomes large no matter what the original size was, right?

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I really do think your missing a lot of the nuisances of the different summoner flavor.

    - Broodmaster: Gain two Eidolon. It sucks that you have to split everything between the two, but you could pimp out one and use the second as his flanking buddy or as your utility monkey. Keep one around with the AC and hitpoints while the second is built for misc actions, like gun running.

    - Synthesist: My mind just boggles at this class. If this wasn't pathfinder, I would proclaim it broken and put it to rest far away from the PCs. I do see this as being awesome for multiclassing but can definitely work on its own as well.

    At first level you get d10+con bonus HP, a potential +2 natural AC, and a +2 to one ability (any ability including your own Int). You could be starting with 18 hitpoints+2xcon, Barbarian, how are those apples. Anyone wants this, but....

    - Barbarian Evolutions: +2 stats, +2 Nat Armor, Energy attacks, pounce, rend
    - Fighter Evolutions: +2 Stats, +2 nat armor, Resistance, Push
    - Monk Evolutions (wow!): Reach, +2 nat armor, Energy attacks, Skill bonus, climb
    - Rogue: Skill bonuses (Stealth, atheletic, etc), Climb (base speed), pounce, poison

    To draw from a literary source. I see this ability kind of like Leto from dune and the sand trouts.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Thinking about it again, the Broodmaster looks less useful, I mean, sure, you can make a skilldolon and a punchdolon for yourself, however a normal Summoner can make a skillpunchdolon that is as strong as both combined.

    So other than the ability to pick a lock and fight at the same time, the Broodmaster is at a disadvantage, not a big disadvantage, but still disadvantage.

    Honestly I'd preferred if he lost all Summon Monsters and a slight cut in Evo points (lose 1/4 or so) and be able to have 2 different Eidolons, but still only calling 1 at a time, however given a minute to prepare and call the Eidolon you can now have a very nice utilitydolon and a very nice punchdolon.

    Master Summoner really does seem to pay too big of a price to do what he does, at half everything his Eidolon is pretty crappy...hell, the thing has the BAB of a freaking Wizard, you make a better fighter than it does!

    And I still can't fully wrap my mind around the rules for when the Synthesist finally separates from the Eidolon...I'm hoping it's just bad wording so the Eidolon does have feats and skills as normal, just can't access them while merged (which is all the time until they separate).

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    The synthetist is a power house.

    -His items benefit both him and the eidolon. (extremely useful if the dm doesn't allow for custom items, like a vest of resistance)

    -He can dump his physical stats. (Str should still be 13 for power attack though.)

    -The summoner always benefits from shield ally.

    -His eidolon uses the summoner's will save(increased from shield ally) making it really difficult to banish. Added to that, due to gaining the eidolons stats and the shield ally bonus the summoner will have higher saves.

    -The summoner benefits from the eidolons huge natural armor bonus and good dexterity bonus. This results in very high ac.

    -Synthetist is the only way the summoner can benefit from ability increase.

    -Can use his buffs more freely since he doesn't have an extra person to worry about.

    -Certain evolutions like Frightfull Presence and Incorporeal form work better for the synthetist.

    In short the synthetist looses the ability to both inflict damage and cast a spell in the same round, but gains a huge defensive boost and staying power. I think its worth it.

    Here is a semi optimized 11th level build:
    ( Tabs seem to be lost in the post, how can I bring them back?)

    Spoiler
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    Synthesist 11 Stats:Normal / Fused with Eidolon

    Class-Levels: Summoner 11
    Race: Half elf, arcane training (use spell completion items as if one level higher), dual minded (iron will)
    Favored class bonus extra evolution ponts

    Feats:
    1st Resilient eidolon, iron will
    3rd Power attack
    5th Vigilant eidolon
    7th Craft (…)
    9th Greater fortitude
    11th Improved initiative
    (13th Extend spell
    15th Expanded arcana
    17th Quicken spell
    19th expanded arcana)

    Items: 82 k
    Spent 81,5
    Remain 1,5k

    • Armor: +3 mithral chain shirt. 10k
    • Belts: belt of physical perfection+2 16k
    • Headband: headband of mental superiority +2 16k
    • Neck: Amulet of Natural armor +1 2k
    • Ring (up to two): deflection+2 8k, ring of counterspells 4k:
    • Shoulders: cloak of resistance +3 9k
    +2 mithral buckler 5k
    Hewards handy haversack 2,5 k
    rod of extend lesser 3k=3k
    Grapplers mask 5k (may grapple and bull rush without provoking aop)

    Ability Scores 20 point buy
    Total Base Racial Magic Inherent Levels
    Str 15 13 2
    Dex 13 11 2
    Con 14 12 2
    Str 30 14 8(size) 2 4 2
    Dex 20 14 -2(size) 2 4+2evolution
    Con 19 13 4 2

    Int 14 12 2
    Wis 14 12 2
    Cha 22 16 2 2 2

    Could dump physicals completely, str 10 dex 9 con10 would allowth the pc to start with a base charisma 18. I don’t like it though and you would loose power attack.

    Perception:
    Initiative:+1/+5 dex+4 I.Initiative=+5/+9
    Perception:+23/+31, low light vision, darkvision 60 ft

    Offense

    Full attack:
    Reach:5 feet bite, 10 feet claws
    Full attack: 4 claws +19 (1d8+10) bite +19 (1d8+10)
    Full attack(greater magical fang): 4 claws +21 (1d8+12) bite +21 (1d8+12)
    +heroism 4 claws +23 (1d8+14) bite +23 (1d8+14)
    + power attack 4 claws +20 (1d8+20) bite +20 (1d8+20)

    Also has Rend.

    Defense:
    Hp: 11d8+22/44con=75/97?, Eidolon Hp: 9d10+45=99/108?

    Ac:10+ 4armor+ 3 dex+ 2 deflection+5 enchant ment+1 amulet+1shield= 26
    10+2base na+2 large na-1 lage size+5dex+8 natural armor+4 natural armor evolution+2 deflection+1amulet+5 enchantment+2 shielded meld=40
    44(with mage armor)
    46(with shield)


    Saves

    Total Base Ability Misc Magic Shielded Meld
    Fort +11/14 +3 +2/+4 +2 +3 +2
    Reflex +7/13 +3 +1/+5 +3 +2
    Will +14/14 +7 +2 +2 +3 +2
    Immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantments, evasion, devotion

    Skills 44
    Total Ranks Ability Favored other
    Use magical device 20 3 6 3+8skilled
    Perception 23/31 11 2+2elf+8skilled+8vigilant
    Spellcraft 15 11 1 3
    Fly 12/14 6 3/5 3
    Linguistics 12 6 3 3
    Ride 7/9 1 3/5 3
    Handle animal 10 1 6 3
    Arcana 7 1 3 3
    Nature 7 1 3 3
    Planes 9 3 3 3
    Languages: Common, Auran, Terran, Aquan, Infernal, Celestial, Abyssal


    Summon monster VI 9 times per day.

    Spells:
    1st 7 Mage armor, shield,reduce person, protection from evil, enlarge person, grease
    2nd 6 cushioning bands, Resist energy, Summon eidolon, Invisibility, glitterdust
    3rd 5 Invisibility greater, magic fang greater, dimension door, Heroism
    4th 3 Overland flight, Evolution surge greater, Teleport

    Ussualy buffs himself with mage armor, heroism, overland flight, magic fang greater(extended) and cushioning bands.
    If a fight is imminent casts shield.
    Evolution surge, Improved invisibility, Protection from evil, resist energy and enlarge/reduce person are casted depending on the situation.

    once per day dimension door as spell like ability

    Concetration:11+6=17

    Eidolon: Quadruped

    Evolutions: 17 points
    large 4 points
    improved natural attack (claws) 1 point
    claws*2 2points
    pounce 1 points
    rend 2 points
    skilled(perception) 1point (transfered to synthetist)
    reach(claws) 1 point
    skilled(umd) 1 point (transfered to synthetist)
    ability increase (dexterity) 2 points
    natural armor 3 points
    Last edited by VladtheLad; 2011-07-03 at 07:30 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Drothmal View Post
    But when the syntehsist takes the large evolution, it becomes large no matter what the original size was, right?
    Far as I can tell, though it apparently doesn't change the racial trait of "slow speed" since that's listed separately from the racial size. Even so this can be pretty cool with a permanently reduce personed halfing or gnome.

    1. Carry tiny summoner in backpack
    2. Throw backpack at enemy just as the summoner finishes eidolon summoning ritual.
    3. ????
    4. Profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larpus View Post
    And I still can't fully wrap my mind around the rules for when the Synthesist finally separates from the Eidolon...I'm hoping it's just bad wording so the Eidolon does have feats and skills as normal, just can't access them while merged (which is all the time until they separate).
    Let me emphasis here for ya:
    Quote Originally Posted by d20pfsrd
    Split Forms (Su): At 16th level, as a swift action, the synthesist and his fused eidolon can split into two creatures: the synthesist and the eidolon. Both have the same evolutions. The synthesist emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon.

    The synthesist can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his summoner level. He can end this effect at any time as a full-round action. For the duration of this effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the summoner’s class level. This ability replaces merge forms.
    Really it's still not a great ability if you dumped your physicals.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladtheLad View Post
    The synthetist is a power house.

    -snip-

    -He can dump his physical stats. (Str should still be 13 for power attack though.)

    -snip-

    -His eidolon uses the summoner's will save(increased from shield ally) making it really difficult to banish. Added to that, due to gaining the eidolons stats and the shield ally bonus the summoner will have higher saves.

    -snip-

    -Synthetist is the only way the summoner can benefit from ability increase.

    -snip-
    Please excuse the snipage.

    The summoner doesn't need 13 strength if the eidolon has at least that much. Having less just means he can't power attack when not fused. Akal Saris took a few feats in his builds that can only be used while fused with the eidolon and I believe the passage on feat prerequisites backs this up.

    Synthesist saves are pretty underwhelming actually. Shield ally helps but you use the summoner's saves, giving you a good will but pretty poor everything else. Reflex improves a little as you gain summon levels but your fort will pretty much always be sub-standard.

    How does a synthesist benefit from ability increase? You'd pretty much have to put the points into mental stats. Full synthesists get eidolon bonus str/dex but this can become a small problem for dippers.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Larpus View Post
    Thinking about it again, the Broodmaster looks less useful, I mean, sure, you can make a skilldolon and a punchdolon for yourself, however a normal Summoner can make a skillpunchdolon that is as strong as both combined.

    So other than the ability to pick a lock and fight at the same time, the Broodmaster is at a disadvantage, not a big disadvantage, but still disadvantage.

    Honestly I'd preferred if he lost all Summon Monsters and a slight cut in Evo points (lose 1/4 or so) and be able to have 2 different Eidolons, but still only calling 1 at a time, however given a minute to prepare and call the Eidolon you can now have a very nice utilitydolon and a very nice punchdolon.
    The broodmaster, while having weaker eidolons, does gain an advantage, specifically action advantage. Potentially more attacks and more chances to crit, more creatures for the enemy to concern themselves with, more AoOs, give one or both UMD and you can have more spellcasting, ect. Haven't built one or seen one in play yet, so I don't know if the action economy makes up for the weaker stats, but it has potential.

    Master Summoner really does seem to pay too big of a price to do what he does, at half everything his Eidolon is pretty crappy...hell, the thing has the BAB of a freaking Wizard, you make a better fighter than it does!
    The same could be said for Summoned monsters in general. From the first page of this guide, the Constrictor Snake and the Auroch are listed as noteworthy summons for combat purposes, but both only have a +2 BAB, also no better than a wizard would for the level they can be summoned. The Eidolon becomes a customizable Summon Monster creature you can have around permanently, though you might not want to since not having it out means you can use your standard action Summon Monster ability as many times as you want.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-07-03 at 01:55 PM.
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    1) I think you do need 13 strength.
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats
    Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.

    2)Synthetist saves are pretty good not compared to the eidolons but compared to the normal summoner. Also the key here is that the synthetist will have higher will save than the eidolon, especially if its a quadruped.

    Then again thinking about it perhaps they are even better than an eidolon's, considering the synthetist would have more items, hit dice and higher wisdom than the eidolon. Again wether custom items are allowed is very important.

    Also I wouldn't call +14/13/14 with evasion and +4 vs enchantment at level 11 underwhelming. Especially when most of the time you will have heroism on making them +16/15/16.

    3) The synthetist benefits from ability increase because he gains his eidolon's evolutions. Aspect and greater aspect don't allow the summoner gaining ability increase.
    So the correct statement would be that the synthetist can indirectly benefit from ability increase while the summoner can't.
    Last edited by VladtheLad; 2011-07-03 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    I'm not understanding why dipping synthesist would be any good.... When you have the eidolon summoned, you use the Eidolon's BAB, right? So unless you keep taking levels on summoner (and MAYBE dipping on OTHER classes), you won't be able to hit....

    Don't get me wrong, I think the syntesist is awesome and powerful. But I see this class as being one you have to stick with it once you take it if you plan to go over lvl 4-5

    I saw some builds that use rogue and synthesists, and while I think they are interesting, they are good for NPC enemies, I don't see them playing well for a PC, but I could be wrong...

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    1)Eh, I just assumed that the prerequisite is met because you're using the eidolon's stats at pretty much every point where you could conceivably level up and therefore take feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by d20pfsrd
    Prerequisites

    Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

    A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
    If you want to nitpick that then I suppose your should remember that synthesists can't actually take resilient eidolon or vigilant eidolon as they don't meet the prereqs. You give up your eidolon class feature for "fused eidolon."

    2)On closer inspection of the saves you're not only right but perhaps more right than you've been saying.
    Fort= 3 Base, at least 3 Con, 4 from your magic items, +4 from shielded meld, +2 Great Fortitude= 15 minimum (assumes all eidolon stat increases go to str as they should)
    Refl= 3 Base, 4 from Dex, again you have 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld= 15
    Will= 7 Base, Probably +2 From Wis, 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld, +2 Iron Will= 19 and it's +6 against enchantments thanks to devotion and elf racial bonus.

    You Heroism brings this to 17, 17, 21. I'm impressed. That and shielded meld can't be lost due to paralysis, stunning, and grappling like shield ally can.

    3) I think I'm confused between Summoner Level ability increase, Eidolon Special ability increase, and evolution ability increase. My concern was that you can't put ability increase due to level into your physical stats. This isn't really a problem for strait sythesist who can use the Charisma boost but it can be problematic for multiclassing. As for getting the evolution ability increase on the summoner, that is a nice perk.

    I think about the BAB in the same terms I think about a monk's flurry of blows. You use the eidolon's BAB for synthesist levels only and any other class adds on. The BAB for a synthesis 1/fighter 2 is 3 and the flurrying bab of a monk 1/fighter 2 is also 3, not 1.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Well, I'm making a Mount-type Eidolon for a Summoner NPC, and since it's quite different from yours, I'm interested to see what you think of it:
    Spoiler
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    Base Form: Quadruped
    Evolutions*: Bite, Limbs (legs) (3), Improved Damage (Claws), Claws (3), Trample, Grab (Bite), Swallow Whole, Mount, Head (3), Gore (3), Limbs (arms) (3), Slam, Improved Natural Armor, Tail, Sting, Energy Attacks (Acid), Breath Weapon (Acid)
    Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Lance), Two Weapon Fighting**, Power Attack

    *I specifically chose not to go with the Large evolution, as the rider is a Gnome and this lets him act as indoor cavalry.

    **At 6th level (the level of the Eidolon in question), the Str/Dex bonus is +2. Therefore, it has at least a 14 Dex, but might have a 15. As such, I have assumed that it can take the feat, as it may be able to but the score isn't listed.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyPirate View Post
    Let me emphasis here for ya:
    Oh, sorry, I totally glazed over that part of the text.


    Btw, while making a build for an Eidolon here (so I don't stall the game at every level up), I stumbled across the Energy Attacks description:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pathfinder SRD
    An eidolon’s attacks become charged with energy.

    Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All of the eidolon’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit. The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution.
    Up to now I always thought it worked just like weapons with elemental augmentations, dealing +1d6 of the chosen energy type (so a claw would deal 1d4+1d6), but the wording seems to suggest the damage is instead changed to 1d6 of energy damage (the claw would deal 1d6 energy instead of 1d4 or 1d4+1d6).

    That is not the case, right?

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hi

    I read it that the attack gains (adds) the energy damage.

    My PFS Synthesist is now lvl 2. Awesome melee with her Heirloom Gt Sword.

    At 1st lvl I put her 3 points into +2 Dex/+2 Nat Armour.
    At 2nd lvl I've given her +2 Dex/+2 Con (She gained +2 Nat armour at 2nd lvl anyway).

    I took Str 12 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18 on 20 pt build so I could take Dodge at 1st lvl. Increasing Str at 4th lvl, so Pwr Attack at 5th.
    (She's a Taldor female dancer, with a harem suit for her 'day job' when not adventuring)!

    Thanks
    Paul H

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyPirate View Post
    1)Eh, I just assumed that the prerequisite is met because you're using the eidolon's stats at pretty much every point where you could conceivably level up and therefore take feats.

    If you want to nitpick that then I suppose your should remember that synthesists can't actually take resilient eidolon or vigilant eidolon as they don't meet the prereqs. You give up your eidolon class feature for "fused eidolon.".
    I am more of a "spirits of the rules" person. Getting feats without meeting the prereqs annoys me. Also it just makes "sense" that resilient/vigilant eidolon works with eidolon meld. By RAW you are right though.

    Now we should get in a RAW vs RAI debate and derail the thread.

    Even if you nitpick resilient eidolon and vigilant eidolon there is always extra evolution to replace them with. Not as useful, but still pretty good. With two extra evolutions I would propably grab tremorsense or charisma ability increase. Or even flight and choose to learn baleful polymorph instead of overland flight.

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyPirate View Post
    2)On closer inspection of the saves you're not only right but perhaps more right than you've been saying.
    Fort= 3 Base, at least 3 Con, 4 from your magic items, +4 from shielded meld, +2 Great Fortitude= 15 minimum (assumes all eidolon stat increases go to str as they should)
    Refl= 3 Base, 4 from Dex, again you have 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld= 15
    Will= 7 Base, Probably +2 From Wis, 4 from magic items, +4 shielded meld, +2 Iron Will= 19 and it's +6 against enchantments thanks to devotion and elf racial bonus.

    You Heroism brings this to 17, 17, 21. I'm impressed. That and shielded meld can't be lost due to paralysis, stunning, and grappling like shield ally can.
    Shielded Meld grants a +4 bonus at level 12, my build is level 11. Thats why there is a 2 point difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyPirate View Post
    3) I think I'm confused between Summoner Level ability increase, Eidolon Special ability increase, and evolution ability increase. My concern was that you can't put ability increase due to level into your physical stats. This isn't really a problem for strait sythesist who can use the Charisma boost but it can be problematic for multiclassing. As for getting the evolution ability increase on the summoner, that is a nice perk.
    Now I am also confused. :P

    I just meant the nice perk part. In retrospect it only really matters with charisma.
    Last edited by VladtheLad; 2011-07-05 at 04:59 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    If I have a charge of an unused touch spell (acid splash for instance) can I pass that charge to my Eidolon (using share spells) so it discharges on someone it attacks? My thinking is that with Share Spells i can target my Eidolon even if it were a spell of target "you". One way of looking at ranged touch spells and charges is you are casting the charge on "you" then trying to discharge it on someone else with a touch attack. Thoughts?

    "Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

    "Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    There's a target line on the spell description and that's what determines what spells can be shared or not. For example:

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shield

    Has a target of 'you' so share spells works with it but acid splash:

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acid-splash

    doesn't say target: you so it won't work. The ability is there so you can cast self-only buffs on your eidolon

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Can you use the Sythesist Archtype combined with the Reach evolution to cast touch spells with reach?

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrochan View Post
    Can you use the Sythesist Archtype combined with the Reach evolution to cast touch spells with reach?
    Touch goes by your regular reach, so yes, you could.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Nice guide.

    {Scrubbed}

    Please remove those damned "spoiler" buttons and improve the readability by 1 billion per cent.

    They serve no purpose. There is no spoiler factor BECAUSE WE ARE HERE TO READ ABOUT SUMMONERS.

    Duh.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-07-27 at 08:17 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by FaveDave View Post
    Nice guide.

    {Scrubbed}

    Please remove those damned "spoiler" buttons and improve the readability by 1 billion per cent.

    They serve no purpose. There is no spoiler factor BECAUSE WE ARE HERE TO READ ABOUT SUMMONERS.

    Duh.
    Spoilers are used to increase the ease of reading. Without spoilers you would have walls of text and you would have to navigate it all in order to find what you want. With the spoilers you can just find the section that fits what you want to find and look without looking at everything at once.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-07-27 at 08:18 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Hey everyone, I got sort of a big question here: exactly how in hell does the Half-Elf +1/4 Evo points ability work?

    I mean, from the wording of favored class bonuses, the Half-Elf Summoner receives +1/4 of this current Evo points every level, which makes it look something like this:

    Lvl01 - 03+01=04
    Lvl02 - 05+01=06
    Lvl03 - 07+01=08
    Lvl04 - 10+02=12
    Lvl05 - 13+03=16
    Lvl06 - 17+04=21
    Lvl07 - 22+05=27
    Lvl08 - 28+07=35
    Lvl09 - 37+09=46
    Lvl10 - 47+11=58

    However that simply cannot be right, I mean, this guy has over 3 times the amount of Evo points that a Summoner from another race could have.

    Another possibility is that it only considers the base number, without the extras, so it looks like this:

    Lvl01 - 03+01=04
    Lvl02 - 04+01+01=06
    Lvl03 - 05+02+01=08
    Lvl04 - 07+03+01=11
    Lvl05 - 08+04+02=14
    Lvl06 - 09+06+02=17
    Lvl07 - 10+08+02=20
    Lvl08 - 11+10+02=23
    Lvl09 - 13+12+03=28
    Lvl10 - 14+15+03=32

    That's more acceptable, but he still has over twice what a Summoner is supposed to.

    And there's the possibility that it only applies once, but if that's the case it's a pretty lame and useless favored class bonus and you'd be better off grabbing either extra HP or Skills until level 10 or so.

    So anyway, how in hell does it work?

  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    *Facepalm*

    You receive one quarter of an evolution point a level, as in 1 every 4 levels.


  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    *Facepalm*

    You receive one quarter of an evolution point a level, as in 1 every 4 levels.

    Oh.

    Well that does make much more sense.

    I locked myself out of this answer 'cus I thought to myself "that can't be, you can't have 1/4 extra point".

    Thanks for clearing that up.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Question on how long an Eidolon stays alive and active.

    According to the text:
    Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
    Does the Eidolon fall unconscious at 0 or does it continue to fight until negative Con score and is then unsummoned unless the summoner sacrifices his own hit points via Life Link?

    Edit: Oh, and thanks for the awesome guide! Made a killer centauresque build to start with, but at low levels that -5 to attack is crazy killer. So probably doing some kind of crazy pouncer instead and switch once I hit large evo. ;)
    Last edited by Sylivin; 2011-07-27 at 05:36 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Cieyrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylivin View Post
    Does the Eidolon fall unconscious at 0 or does it continue to fight until negative Con score and is then unsummoned unless the summoner sacrifices his own hit points via Life Link?
    It appears that it would fall unconscious unless it has Diehard or some other shenanigan, like PCs. I don't see any text to suggest otherwise, though. It's kinda weird that it does have that text if they're just gonna be a lump of meat to take cover behind when they drop to negatives...
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  29. - Top - End - #209
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Would having a ton of tails be altogether worse then a ton of limbs? The tails are cheaper and the sting ability is as good as the claws. It doesn't get Rend or Rake, but having 1.5 the normal number of attacks seems to even it out.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

    Remember that you get 2 claws for 1 evo point. So you end up with 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Meanwhile it costs 2 points for a stinger upgrade (1 for tail, 1 for stinger). So it ends up costing 4 points for 2 primary attacks if you go the tail route. Plus with the bonus of rend... tends to be better over all to go with claws both for evo point useage and overall damage per round.
    Last edited by Sylivin; 2011-07-27 at 08:33 PM.

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