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Thread: Knowstones

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    Default Knowstones

    So, what exactly are the limitations on these 'Knowstones'? Does the spell have to be on your class spell list for you to use them, thus making them pointless for Beguilers? Or can it be any spell? And what exactly are they, just little trinkets you keep on your person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkflight View Post
    So, what exactly are the limitations on these 'Knowstones'? Does the spell have to be on your class spell list for you to use them, thus making them pointless for Beguilers? Or can it be any spell? And what exactly are they, just little trinkets you keep on your person?
    The limitation is oodles of cash. They are super expensive, no idea if a Beguiler can use them, probably better off going with Runestaffs for most things.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    The limitation is oodles of cash. They are super expensive, no idea if a Beguiler can use them, probably better off going with Runestaffs for most things.
    I believe Runestaves are useless for Beguilers as well.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I believe Runestaves are useless for Beguilers as well.
    Beguilers can always UMD runestaves and similar items.

    Knowstones (as detailed in Dragon 333) are primarily intended for Sorcerers, and do indeed have the condition that the spell in the stone must be on your class list to be usable (again, UMD can circumvent this). Hence, they are also very useful for Favored Souls, Bards, and any other spontaneous casters that have a limited number of spells known from their list.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    I ... see. Well, this puts a kink in my plans. I was about to run a Sorc/Rogue going into US, but I had hoped I could just replace Sorcerer with Beguiler, and use Knowstones to get Act Arrow to fuel my reserve feat (as well as Alter Self, Grease, and a couple of other notable spells at higher levels, notably Polymorph).

    Is there any way I can pull this off? Or am I stuck with Sorc?

    EDIT: Not that Sorc is bad, by any means, just Beguiler gets some nifty abilities I was oogling at, notably the ability to cast while wearing light armor.
    Last edited by Hawkflight; 2011-01-31 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkflight View Post
    I ... see. Well, this puts a kink in my plans. I was about to run a Sorc/Rogue going into US, but I had hoped I could just replace Sorcerer with Beguiler, and use Knowstones to get Act Arrow to fuel my reserve feat (as well as Alter Self, Grease, and a couple of other notable spells at higher levels, notably Polymorph).

    Is there any way I can pull this off? Or am I stuck with Sorc?

    EDIT: Not that Sorc is bad, by any means, just Beguiler gets some nifty abilities I was oogling at, notably the ability to cast while wearing light armor.
    You could, in theory, UMD knowstones, though I think most DMs would look at you and be all "uh... no?"

    You may be able to acquire Acid Arrow via Arcane Disciple, though. Or, just custom research a Beguiler version, using the spell research rules in the DMG, something that's explicitly called out as recommended.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Not that it helps in this specific situation, but another thing worth noting about Knowstones is that, like Wands, they aren't specifically arcane or divine. For example, the same Knowstone of Dispel Magic could be used by a Bard, Sorcerer or Favored Soul...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkflight View Post
    Is there any way I can pull this off? Or am I stuck with Sorc?
    Depending on the DMs reading of the Extra Spell feat, you may be able to add the spells this way (I believe the FAQ states the spell must be on your list, but the RAW status of this is debatable).
    EDIT: Not that Sorc is bad, by any means, just Beguiler gets some nifty abilities I was oogling at, notably the ability to cast while wearing light armor.
    If you can get a dip in the Urban Savant PrC (Cty), you get the ability to cast in light armor with any one arcane class, from memory.

    Also, if you can dip Spellthief, the Master Spellthief feat can achieve similar results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    You may be able to acquire Acid Arrow via Arcane Disciple, though. Or, just custom research a Beguiler version, using the spell research rules in the DMG, something that's explicitly called out as recommended.
    Well, Arcane Disciple does sound good. But I wouldn't get all the spells I wanted. And I'm pretty sure the Spell Research thing wouldn't fly. Remember, the Beguiler casts spells spontaneously, so in essence I would have to completely make up a bunch of new spells that don't even fit the beguiler. And my DM would just be like, ".....No."

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Depending on the DMs reading of the Extra Spell feat, you may be able to add the spells this way (I believe the FAQ states the spell must be on your list, but the RAW status of this is debatable).

    If you can get a dip in the Urban Savant PrC (Cty), you get the ability to cast in light armor with any one arcane class, from memory.

    Also, if you can dip Spellthief, the Master Spellthief feat can achieve similar results.
    I'm really not sure I want to burn several spell slots just to memorize a few new spells. And I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly anyways. Even if the RAW status is debatable, he could just say, "I'm the DM. End of discussion."

    Urban Savant ... let me look it up and I'll get back to you on that.

    Practiced Spellcaster > Master Spellthief when it comes to Unseen Seer. As it negates the CL drop from certain class features. -.- Also, the Spellthief's skill list sucks. So I would have to ditch either some skills (and like 16 skill points, no freaking way), or (starting at level 6) my first level of Unseen Seer. Again, no way.

    And before anyone mentions the Battle Sorcerer, cool flavor, but I like my spells thanks.

    Is there like ... a feat, that can negate the ASF chance for light armor, or something?

    EDIT: I just looked at Urban Savant, and ... no way, Jose. Entry requirements are too steep, and I think there are easier ways to get what I want without having to deal with the inanities of Knowledge: Your Face.
    Last edited by Hawkflight; 2011-02-01 at 12:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    If you just want to cast in light armor and aren't willing to take a hit to your spells.. Well you can do that with normal light armor. Yes there is that chance of failure, and you could take Armored spellcaster from one of the complete books but to me, that seems to be the worst possible method, as you would have to take it at level 3 or waste a feat on light armor prof.

    Instead I'd suggest more to ask DM about various things that reduce ASF.

    One of the last dragons came out with masterwork armor abilities, one of which reduces ASF by 5%. Mithiral metal armor reduces it by 10%, Twilight reduces by another 10% or so.. Then there is another special creation rule that would reduce it even further.

    Give me a few moments, I'll look the stuff up.

    EDIT:

    Thistledown suit (RotW) gives you -5% ASF and can be done along with mithral (due to it changing out a different part of the armor.)

    Caster Armor (Dragon 358) gives another -5% as its a masterwork enhancement that makes the armor easier to move.

    Twilight (PHB 2) is a -10%

    And Mithral is -10%


    So with those 4, you could be wearing armor with a total of 30% arcane spell failure and never fail. Meaning you can just barely touch heavy armor. And there is probably something else out there that I don't know of.
    Last edited by Triskavanski; 2011-02-01 at 01:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    I'd take another look at arcane disciple if you really like the beguiler. There have to be some domains with good attack spells worth taking.
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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski View Post
    If you just want to cast in light armor and aren't willing to take a hit to your spells.. Well you can do that with normal light armor. Yes there is that chance of failure, and you could take Armored spellcaster from one of the complete books but to me, that seems to be the worst possible method, as you would have to take it at level 3 or waste a feat on light armor prof.

    Instead I'd suggest more to ask DM about various things that reduce ASF.

    One of the last dragons came out with masterwork armor abilities, one of which reduces ASF by 5%. Mithiral metal armor reduces it by 10%, Twilight reduces by another 10% or so.. Then there is another special creation rule that would reduce it even further.

    Give me a few moments, I'll look the stuff up.

    EDIT:

    Thistledown suit (RotW) gives you -5% ASF and can be done along with mithral (due to it changing out a different part of the armor.)

    Caster Armor (Dragon 358) gives another -5% as its a masterwork enhancement that makes the armor easier to move.

    Twilight (PHB 2) is a -10%

    And Mithral is -10%


    So with those 4, you could be wearing armor with a total of 30% arcane spell failure and never fail. Meaning you can just barely touch heavy armor. And there is probably something else out there that I don't know of.
    OMG. Do you have prices on these?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    I'd take another look at arcane disciple if you really like the beguiler. There have to be some domains with good attack spells worth taking.
    I looked. There's nothing that has a 2nd-level acid spell, and that's critical for my combat style. And there would never be anything that grants Shield, Grease, Alter Self, Acid Arrow (or equivalent), Wings of Cover, Wings of Blasting, and Polymorph all on the same list.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Githcraft or Feycraft Armor from DMG 2 can also reduce AF by 5%.
    Last edited by Andion Isurand; 2011-02-01 at 01:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Caster armor requires that your armor is masterwork. Then and additional 400 gp for light, 800 for med and 1000 for heavy.

    Twilight would be in your phb2.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    From DMG2 there's also Githcraft and Feycraft which are qualities of armor and weapons that reduce ASF by another 5% each. Can't quote you a price on either at the moment though. Something like 500-600 gp or in that ballpark.

    And Twilight, IIRC, is a +1 armor property so that's at least 4000 in addition to the actual cost of the armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    Okay, so this gets asked a lot, but what are the ways to reduce Arcane Spell Failure chance? I know of:

    - Mithril [DMG. Varies]: 10% reduction
    - Twilight [PHB II + MiC. +1 Bonus]: 10% reduction
    - Feycraft/Githcraft [DMGII. 500gp/600gp, respectively]: 5% reduction
    - Thistledown [RoW. 250gp]: 5% reduction
    - Caster Armor [Dragon Magazine #358. 400gp Light/800gp Medium/1,000gp Heavy]: 5% reduction

    Any others?
    Also mentioned in an Enworld thread, I just saw Blended Quartz from Arms and Equipment Guide (not as good for max dex as mithril) mentioned as having a larger ASF reduction than mithril. Glassteel on the other hand, is a similar 10% reduction and I forget the source.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-02-01 at 02:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Either Recaster or Wyrm Wizard (entry through Corrupt Arcana or Arcane Preparation) gives you arbitrary new spells known. Fiendblooded might work too.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Also mentioned in an Enworld thread, I just saw Blended Quartz from Arms and Equipment Guide (not as good for max dex as mithril) mentioned as having a larger ASF reduction than mithril. Glassteel on the other hand, is a similar 10% reduction and I forget the source.
    Glassteel is from Races of Faerun.

    @OP: I really don't think you're gonna get everything you want. You'll have to pick the critical things and focus on them, or you TALK TO YOUR DM and ask for some leniency and custom assistance to get what you want. Really, ask him to help you out, since RAW can't cover everything without a change to Sorcerer.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    So, if I understand correctly, the OP wants:

    A. A Beguiler/Rogue/Unseen Seer - with the ability to add some direct damage and other spells not on the Beguiler list.

    ...or...

    B. A Sorcerer/Rogue/Unseen Seer that can cast in armor with 0% ASF.

    ...I think B is going to be easier to achieve, although A is far from impossible.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Assuming Unearthed Arcana is allowed you could just use Battle Sorcerer Alternate class, (improves HD, Gives proficiency with 1 single handed martial weapon, and also allows casting in Light armor, Allows Battle caster feat to cast in medium armor, and as mithril turns heavy armor into medium armor with regards to spell failure allows use of mithril heavy armor without spell failure).

    I vaguely remember a full BAB/full Casting PRC with D10 HD, Arcane Champion or something that requires martial prof with 1 weapon (IIRC) which you actually have as part of battle sorc.

    You lose out on

    Spells known, Spells per day (1 of each per level), Knowstones can fix the Spells known issue easily.

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    Yeah, cept he really wants to keep a hold of that 1 spell per day per level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski View Post
    Yeah, cept he really wants to keep a hold of that 1 spell per day per level.
    Pretty much, yeah...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkflight View Post
    And before anyone mentions the Battle Sorcerer, cool flavor, but I like my spells thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefingers View Post
    I vaguely remember a full BAB/full Casting PRC with D10 HD, Arcane Champion or something that requires martial prof with 1 weapon (IIRC) which you actually have as part of battle sorc.
    Hmmm ... so what exactly is this class? I could probably get said prof with a feat, and if I can get other goodies as well, that's some delicious icing on the cake.

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    Default Re: Knowstones

    I believe that would be Abjurant Champion, from CM. It's a 5 level long PrC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkflight View Post
    Hmmm ... so what exactly is this class? I could probably get said prof with a feat, and if I can get other goodies as well, that's some delicious icing on the cake.
    Dragonslayer gives +1 BAB, +1 Casting level, and full martial proficiencies at level 1, so that can help you qualify. It requires Iron Will (which you can get from that magical location) and Dodge as feats. A dip into Spellsword for one level is easy after that, and then you can go into Abjurant Champion. That'll give you even better armored casting.

    Though you can already wear a Githcraft Mithral Chain Shirt with Thistledown Padding, Mithral Dastanas, and a Mithral Char-ina for +6 AC, no arcane failure.

    JaronK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I believe that would be Abjurant Champion, from CC. It's a 5 level long PrC.
    Complete Mage, not Complete Champion. But, yeah, five levels, full casting, full BAB. *shrug* saves.

    Gives benefits to armor-class granting abjurations, making people cry that mage armor isn't an abjuration and instead having to make do with luminous armor and such.
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    Default Re: Knowstones

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Complete Mage, not Complete Champion. But, yeah, five levels, full casting, full BAB. *shrug* saves.

    Gives benefits to armor-class granting abjurations, making people cry that mage armor isn't an abjuration and instead having to make do with luminous armor and such.
    For what it's worth, I have never met a DM who didn't allow Mage Armor to be transferred over to Abjuration. It makes sense, it's obviously intended for the A.Champion to be able to use it, and... yeah.

    But Luminous Armor (and the greater version especially) are awesome anyway.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2011-02-02 at 01:40 AM.
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