Grafts and VOP

[Dyslexic]

Can a PC with VoP get a graft?
I think no, because he must pay the graft.

But is possible for a PC with a graft take the VoP?
I think this question can't receive a RAW aswer, because the VoP is very vague: "you must not own or use any material possessions".

We have a sage's answer: "The Sage recommends that grafts be considered
“possessions” for the purpose of adjudicating the Vow of
Poverty (to avoid abusing the spirit of the vow)."
But the sage haven't al lot of reliability. (imho)

And so: are the grafts a material possession or are they a body's parts of the PC?

[WeaselGuy]

This is a tricky question... I would be inclined to agree with the Sage in this case. Outta curiosity though, what graft are you trying to get on the VoP character?

[Red Fel]

And so: are the grafts a material possession or are they a body's parts of the PC?

As with a lot of things in BoED, I think this requires some DM rulings. Let's not forget that while the Sage is informative, it's also not RAW.

I would make my ruling based on several factors.

• Timing. I would not penalize a VoP character for any grafts he received before taking the Vow. Once the graft is implanted, I'm not going to require him to tear off a limb in order to retain the benefit. Future grafts, however, may be scrutinized.
• Making whole. I would not penalize a VoP character for any grafts he received to replace a limb lost incidentally, for example due to combat injury or trap or curse or something. VoP is hard enough to play as-is; forcing a VoP character to remain further crippled on top of that is just cruel.
• Intent. If the player took VoP with the intent of grabbing lots of grafts, I'd definitely treat that as an attempt to subvert the meaning of the Vow, and impose penalty. However, as mentioned, VoP is pretty crippling; if the player was otherwise doing a good job of playing the Vow, I might allow him one or two grafts, provided that their acquisition was RPed out along the lines of a reward for service or something like that, rather than a purchased good (which a VoP character can't afford anyway). For example, if the player and I discussed it, I might find that his patron church (if any) wished him to have something, such as a Dragon god offering his follower the Buffeting Wings graft.

Bottom line, VoP cripples a character badly, and I'm not opposed to bending the rules very slightly for such a character, provided that he takes the Vow seriously. But given how strict I am in my interpretation of Vows, and BoED content generally, I don't know how successful the player would be in trying that route.

By RAW, though? I'm inclined to agree with the Sage. A graft is basically a permanent, slotless magic item; it's pretty potent and valuable. The point of VoP is, in effect, to rob the PC of any valuable magic items or the benefits thereof, with precious few exceptions; it would likely preclude a graft.

[Dyslexic]

@WG: I haven't a PC, and i'm not the DM of a PC with vop.
It was just a theoretical discussion.

@RF: "Making whole" is not very important, because there is the regenerate spell.

My opinion is the graft become a body's parts. Because if I hit (i.e.) an arm grafted into a NPC, I don't injury the arm, but the NPC.

Secondly i think the VoP is suboptimal, then a grafted PC with VoP is not to much strong, and not an abuse.

This resoning is valid?

[Necroticplague]

A graft is not a magic item. It is a part of your body. This is made clear at least 3 time in Fiend Folio:

Grafts have no statistics of their own. A graft might enhance some ability or characteristic of the creature it’s attached to, or grant the creature some new ability.

Grafts are not magic items,

A graft is not a magic item: It does not radiate magic once completed, it does not count against a creature’s limit for magic items worn, it does not have a caster level, and it is very hard, if not impossible, to salvage as treasure.

So a graft, as per the first one, is merely a modification to the creature, not a possession. If you have a graft, it doesn't violate your Vow. You might have some trouble paying for a graft, though, given that they are fairly expensive (and you can't carry the gold needed). However, if you manage to arrange for it (either for free as a form of quest reward, or having one of your allies pay for it[likely out of your share]), you can have as many grafts as you want.

[j_spencer93]

Oh god, i hope my VoP player doesn't see this thread. Is an interesting idea though.

[Dyslexic]

A graft is not a magic item. It is a part of your body. This is made clear at least 3 time in Fiend Folio:



So a graft, as per the first one, is merely a modification to the creature, not a possession. If you have a graft, it doesn't violate your Vow. You might have some trouble paying for a graft, though, given that they are fairly expensive (and you can't carry the gold needed). However, if you manage to arrange for it (either for free as a form of quest reward, or having one of your allies pay for it[likely out of your share]), you can have as many grafts as you want.

Sure?
The tome of intellect (i.e.) when is read is not more a magic item, but a PC with vop can't use this.

I total agree the part about implanting grafts before taking the vop.

[j_spencer93]

If the tome isn't magical why can't they use it? Don't have my book at the moment so not sure if it states anywhere or not.

[Necroticplague]

Sure?
The tome of intellect (i.e.) when is read is not more a magic item, but a PC with vop can't use this.

I total agree the part about implanting grafts before taking the vop.

A tome of intellect is a magic item while it is used. It is not until it is consumed (by reading it for a week) that it becomes nonmagical. Even without being a magic item, it is definitely a possession.If you read a tome, then took your Vow, you'd get to keep the benefits of the Tome (since it is no longer a possession, assuming you've since discarded the book).

A graft is not a magic item at any point in time. It is not a possession in any way, either, as it has no statistics of its own, merely modifying your own.

[j_spencer93]

What if you were simply reading the tome from a library lol it wouldn't be yours then. I am just kidding. Seriously, you can't even borrow one, blah blah.

[Dyslexic]

Sorry, but a friend tell me grafts are objects, because they are created with an item creation feat.

Who are wrong?

[Necroticplague]

Sorry, but a friend tells me grafts are objects, because they are created with an item creation feat.

Who is wrong?

Your friend is. Again, look at Fiend Folio, which has the rules for grafts in it. It is very clear on grafts not being items, instead being modifications to a creature, despite being crafted similarly to a magic item. That's why a person with VoP can have grafts, but not pay for them (or craft them himself, since that needs materials he can't have).

[Dyslexic]

Wow, an english lesson too!
(It may sound sarcastic, but in isn't)

But the FF is 3.0, and the rules of 3.0 are not valids in 3.5.

[Necroticplague]

Wow, an english lesson too!
(It may sound sarcastic, but in isn't)

But the FF is 3.0, and the rules of 3.0 are not valid in 3.5.

A: Unless something has been specifically replaced (e.g. shifter with MoMF), it's generally assumed that 3.0 is compatible with 3.5.
B:However, if you insist on sticking with that, there are 3.5 sources saying the same thing. Libris Mortis's Undead Grafts use the same rules as the Fiend Folio grafts, and reiterate pretty much every point.

Grafts have no statistics of their own. A graft might improve some ability or characteristic of the creature it’s attached to, or grant the creature some new ability [continues on with some examples]


Grafts are not magic items, [rules for crafting grafts]

And if you want an even more 3.5 source, Races of the Dragon also reiterates that point about grafts, even though it has different grafting rules from the previous two

Grafts are difficult to remove.Grafts have no statistics of their own and can't be attacked or damaged seperately from the creature to which they are grafted.
[rules about removing a graft]
A graft is not a magic item. It does not radiate a magical aura once completed, it does not take up space on the body as a magic item would. A graft can't be supressed with a dispel magic, nor is it affected by an antimagic field or a similar effect.

[Dyslexic]

Thank you very much.

I'm fully convinced now.