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    Default One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    This is a Druid ACF meant to simulate the idea of merging with the environment and controlling it. It is meant to replace Wildshape, and not be any more powerful than it (Even a bit weaker is fine).

    Druid ACF: One with Nature
    As your body falls unconscious, your mind merges with the plants around you.
    This ability lasts for an amount of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier in hours per use, or until you decide to end it. While this is active, you fall unconscious and your body is treated as an object until the duration ends. Your body and anything you are wearing automatically camouflage with your surroundings, adding 15 to the DC to Spot you, as well as the DC to find you with a Search check.

    You may control one non-creature plant per HD, within a distance of 5 feet per HD of yourself or any entity controlled by this ability. Controlled plants have your mental stats and Will save, and have all other stats as if they were Animated Objects. Altogether, they may take a normal allocation of actions per round between them (one standard and one move, or two move, or one full-round, in addition to one swift or immediate action), but have Speed 0'. You can cast spells through the plants, but incur a -1 Caster Level penalty for all casting done in this way. The Natural Spell feat negates this penalty.

    The amount of uses per day is equal to the amount of total uses of Wildshape you would have if you hadn't traded it out for this ACF.

    At 8th Druid level, you may control a total number of plants equal to your HD * 1.5 (rounded down). Also, your body's skin hardens, becoming like bark (though it continues to look camouflaged), and your body gains a Hardness equal to your HD. Magical fire, it removes the hardness for one round as the bark-like coating needs to regrow. Nonmagical fire bypasses the hardness but does not remove it.

    At 11th Druid level, you may make entities move, even if they could not normally do so. They gain a speed as an Animated Object of their size and shape.

    At 12th Druid level, you may control creatures with the Plant type if they fail a Will save opposed by your Charisma check. They count as a number of entities equal to their HD for the purposes of how many entities you can control with this ability.

    At 15th Druid level, you may control animals (Creatures with the Animal type) if they fail a Will save opposed by your Charisma check. They count as a number of entities equal to their HD for the purposes of how many entities you can control with this ability.

    At 16th Druid level, the controlled entities can, between them, take twice as many actions as previously per round, but no individual controlled entity can take more than a normal allocation of actions per round.

    At 18th Druid level, you can control any creature with an Intelligence of 2 or less if they fail a Will save opposed by your Charisma check. They count as a number of entities equal to their HD for the purposes of how many entities you can control with this ability.

    At 20th Druid level, you can control willing creatures of any intelligence. They count as a number of entities equal to their HD for the purposes of how many entities you can control with this ability. Also, your total limit extends to twice your HD.

    You can only begin or end controlling a creature or plant once per round per entity.

    Classes which progress Wildshape progress the extensions of this ability if you traded Wildshape out for it.
    _______________________________________________
    Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Need any clarifications?
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2014-07-16 at 06:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Normal plants don't have a hit die. So 5 * HD = unlimited plants?

    Also, what is this meant to replace?
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Havvy View Post
    Normal plants don't have a hit die. So 5 * HD = unlimited plants?
    Also, what is this meant to replace?
    Here's one answer:
    Quote Originally Posted by master256 View Post
    You may control plants (normal, not creatures with the [Plant] subtype or Awakened plants) within a radius of your HD * 5 feet, an amount equal to your HD.
    And here's the other:
    Quote Originally Posted by master256 View Post
    This is a Druid ACF meant to simulate the idea of merging with the environment and controlling it. It is meant to replace Wildshape, and not be any more powerful than it (Even a bit weaker is fine).
    Also, HD * 5 is the radius, not the amount of plants.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    I get if it's bad, or if it's already been done somewhere, but I wish people would at least post and SAY SO!
    </rant>
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    I thought it was decent. I am not sure if I would be willing to give up wildshape for it. It (as far as I know) brings something entirely new to the druid's toybox.

    Is it possible to channel your spells through the plants and animals under your control? Spells are a major part of a druid, whether through a feat like Natural Spell or just added to the description, they need a way to be added into this somehow.

    If your body gets found, you are screwed. So the plus to the dc helps alot. Though the enemy is probably too worried getting ripped apart by plants.

    The ACF takes away some of the SADness druids are known for, but it's not hard to have two high skills even with point-buy.

    So an overall rating:
    Let's say Wildshape is a 10/10 (We are comparing to it, so that should be be the marker). As is maybe 5-6, it has very limited use until higher levels, while Wildshape is useful the level you get it; while this needs a bit of a start-up. Add a way to use spells and that could easily make it 7-8.

    Take this with a grain of salt, as I normally don't bother judging things.
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    I'll peach your ACF if you'll peach my PrC !
    Just kidding, you don't have to.

    I can't honestly say I know much about a druid's wild shape, so I can't say how strong this is compared to. What I do know is that the number of plants clause is confusing. First off, is it a number of HD of plants (Which I will assume is the case) like a necromancer controls HD of undead, or is it a flat number of plants?
    Second off, under my assumptions, most plants don't have an HD listed. Plant type creatures do, but most plants don't, so what do they count as? Can you control ALL of them, them costing zilch, or do they count as 1 or .5 HD each?
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    I really like it. I am just not sure I'd be willing to give up Wildshape for it.

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    I can't honestly say I know much about a druid's wild shape, so I can't say how strong this is compared to. What I do know is that the number of plants clause is confusing. First off, is it a number of HD of plants (Which I will assume is the case) like a necromancer controls HD of undead, or is it a flat number of plants?
    Second off, under my assumptions, most plants don't have an HD listed. Plant type creatures do, but most plants don't, so what do they count as? Can you control ALL of them, them costing zilch, or do they count as 1 or .5 HD each?
    For the second time, each plant counts as one for these purposes. However, I'm considering extending the "each plant has stats as an Animated Object" to the Hit Dice limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strife Warzeal View Post
    Is it possible to channel your spells through the plants and animals under your control? Spells are a major part of a druid, whether through a feat like Natural Spell or just added to the description, they need a way to be added into this somehow.
    I'd say maybe allow spells to be cast at a caster level penalty, and Natural Spell removes the penalty. That would make it a bit better than Wildshape in the spellcasting aspect, as the feat is not required for spellcasting.

    EDIT: There, edited the stats to be identical to animated objects, except for the mental stats of the druid; removed the inability to use magic items; and allowed spellcasting at a -1 CL (penalty removed with Natural Spell)
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2011-02-11 at 05:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Well, as wished, a comment:

    I think I will use this ACF for my next Druid (a Myconid).
    As far as balancing goes I'm not really an authority. But I really like the fluff, and never really liked the Wild Shape feature. It may be stronger, but in my opinion druids should be more bonded to plants than to animals. And have control of/perception through a small part of woodland/plant area suits that real fine.
    So, I really like it.
    (Will have to talk with my DM about it though, and about alternate companions.)
    Last edited by Smokin Red; 2011-03-15 at 08:09 AM.

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin Red View Post
    Well, as wished, a comment:

    I think I will use this ACF for my next Druid (a Myconid).
    As far as balancing goes I'm not really an authority. But I really like the fluff, and never really liked the Wild Shape feature. It may be stronger, but in my opinion druids should be more bonded to plants than to animals. And have control of/perception through a small part of woodland/plant area suits that real fine.
    So, I really like it.
    (Will have to talk with my DM about it though, and about alternate companions.)
    Great, tell me how it goes, and if your DM or you feel any modifications are needed. I'm not quite sure if the Spot DC is enough of an increase, and I've been considering adding a skin-hardening feature at some point to give your body Hardness as an object, or possibly DR/Fire and Magic. (The "and" is so that you won't be killed by a falling torch or something)
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    You can't have DR/Fire, elemental damage automatically bypasses DR.

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowedsoul View Post
    You can't have DR/Fire, elemental damage automatically bypasses DR.
    Oh. What kinds of DR are possible? Or should I just give Hardness as though your body became an object?

    EDIT: Realized that I forgot to add to the Search DC as well as the Spot. Fixed.

    EDIT: Added Hardness equal to HD starting from 8th level.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2011-03-15 at 09:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    DR that's overcome by a material or alignment is doable.

    Yeah, hardness would be way easier than trying to manipulate some combo of DR and elemental resistances.

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowedsoul View Post
    DR that's overcome by a material or alignment is doable.

    Yeah, hardness would be way easier than trying to manipulate some combo of DR and elemental resistances.
    So the only possibilities are Material, Alignment, a certain amount of plusses (such as the Tarraque having DR/+5), or piercing/slashing/bludgeoning? Wow, I would have though it would be possible to make something that can, for example, only be harmed by lightning. Can I say that something has Hardness, but this hardness is negated by damage that is both Magic and Fire? Or that it is removed for one round if hit by magic+fire damage?
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2011-03-15 at 09:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    They actually don't have DR negated by a specific plus anymore, there's DR/magic and DR/epic, but that's it (as far as magic is concerned).

    I mean hypothetically you could say "does not take damage from anything except X" if you wanted, but it'd be a unique ability. Same deal with the magic fire, just add a clause to the hardness that it's bypassed by magical fire if you want to. I don't really think it's necessary, but if you do then just make it up and then try to get the rules-ese as not manipulatable as possible.

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Suggested this in a game, got comments, posting here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GameSpawn View Post
    It looks alright to me, at first glance, but I have a few questions; The "you lose your charisma score" bit is a little problematic from a RAW perspective, as it's stated that all creatures have a charisma score. Is the intent that your body is treated as an inanimate object? Also, what senses do you have while controlling not normally animate plants? Are you aware of what happens to your own body?

    In the first paragraph, you describe the number of plants you can control in terms of a radius, but in the level 8 paragraph, you place a previously absent limit on the number of plants. Is this intentional?
    Huh. Seems I missed some of that. Hang on...

    Charisma removal was intended to make your body act as an object. Looking back, it's clunky. Will rephrase.

    The HD-limit bit... okay what the heck. In rephrasing that passage, the limit somehow got dropped. Originally, it was one plant per HD in a range of five feet per HD, expanding to three plants per two HD (1.5*HD) at eighth level.

    I'll copy this post and yours over into that thread and make the above-mentioned fixes.
    So yeah, rephrasing the starting paragraph to make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Very creative. I'd totally swap Wild Shape for this. There are a few things for which a need clarification though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    within a radius of your HD * 5 feet
    Radius seems a bit short to me at lower levels. I don't think that increasing it would impact balance too much (Wild Shape would be stronger anyways): maybe 10 feet/level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    This ability lasts for an amount of rounds equal to 10 rounds per point of Charisma modifier per use. While this is active, you fall unconscious and your body is treated as an object until the duration ends. Your body and anything you are wearing automatically camouflage with your surroundings, adding 15 to the DC to Spot you, as well as the DC to find you with a Search check.
    You don't specify that this ability can be used only in a natural environment. I guess it's because you don't want this ability to be too much situational. Let's say you want to use it in the middle of a city (youre 20th level so you can control citizens): does the body merges with cobblestone and the like? I ask this because in the description you say that you merge with the plants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    You may control one non-creature plant per HD, within a radius of your HD * 5 feet (Count their Hit Dice as if they were animated objects). Controlled plants have your mental stats and Will save, and have all other stats as if they were Animated Objects.
    You do not say how many HD of Animated Objects you can control with this ability. Let's say I'm a 5th level druid: I can control 5 non-plant creatures. I target five Huge trees that become five Huge Animate Objects (CR 5). Is this correct? Or do you mean the the total amount of HD of Animated Objects you can control is equal to your HD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Altogether, they may take your normal allocation of actions per round between them (by default: one standard and one move, or two move, or one full-round, in addition to one swift or immediate action)
    Sorry, I really don't understand what this means (I'm not saying it's badly written, maybe it's just me).

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    At 12th level, you may control creatures with the [Plant] subtype
    Creatures with the [Animal] subtype)
    As far as I know, Plant and Animal are types, not subtypes. Is there something I am not aware of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    They count as a number of entities equal to their HD for the purposes of how many entities you can control with this ability. They count as a number of entities equal to their HD for the purposes of how many entities you can control with this ability
    Copy-paste error here.

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    Radius seems a bit short to me at lower levels. I don't think that increasing it would impact balance too much (Wild Shape would be stronger anyways): maybe 10 feet/level?
    Could be. Not too sure, though. Like you gave in an example below - it can be pretty powerful if you get a lot of big trees and such all at once. A tight range limit keeps that under wraps until it's really not so broken to have a lot of brutes at once.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    You don't specify that this ability can be used only in a natural environment. I guess it's because you don't want this ability to be too much situational. Let's say you want to use it in the middle of a city (youre 20th level so you can control citizens): does the body merges with cobblestone and the like? I ask this because in the description you say that you merge with the plants.
    Where does it say that (about merging with the plants)? I'm not seeing it. The closest I can find is that the Hardness is bark, and I'll put in a side note there.

    Keep in mind the 20th-level ability (to control intelligent creatures) is Willing-only. I'll add something saying you can stop or start controlling a creature once per round per creature (not directly relevant to your comment but the chain of thought from controlling intelligent creatures brought it up as useful).


    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    You do not say how many HD of Animated Objects you can control with this ability. Let's say I'm a 5th level druid: I can control 5 non-plant creatures. I target five Huge trees that become five Huge Animate Objects (CR 5). Is this correct? Or do you mean the the total amount of HD of Animated Objects you can control is equal to your HD?
    Yes, I did, and in what you quoted too (one non-creature plant per HD). Though... hm. Actually it is a bit awkward. Your first example is correct, balanced by the fact that they can't move around the battlefield and that it's pretty situational (five Huge trees within 25 feet of you - you're probably in a forest or at least a small grove, and that's exactly the sort of place this should excel). I'll remove the parenthetical; it adds nothing and confuses the issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    Sorry, I really don't understand what this means (I'm not saying it's badly written, maybe it's just me).
    Seemed clear enough to me. This prevents the breaking of action economy - you can have a lot of plants, but between all of them there's still only your normal set of actions. Let's say you've got a third-level Druid in someone's front yard controlling Shrub A, Tree B, and Potted Marigold C. Between the three of them, the Druid can still only make their normal set of actions. So, for example, Tree B could make an on some monster trying to kill the druid (standard action) while Potted Marigold C rings the person's doorbell (Move action), but then Shrub A couldn't try to trip the monster or cast a spell (unless the spell was a swift or immediate action).


    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    As far as I know, Plant and Animal are types, not subtypes. Is there something I am not aware of?
    That's just my bad. Fixing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    Copy-paste error here.
    Same.


    EDIT: Clarified progression - the extensions of what you can do at certain levels only progress with Druid levels and classes that progress Wildshape.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2014-07-16 at 11:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Where does it say that (about merging with the plants)? I'm not seeing it. The closest I can find is that the Hardness is bark, and I'll put in a side note there.
    Here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    As your body falls unconscious, your mind merges with the plants around you.
    I know it's fluff text and thus not binding. I was really nitpicking here, sorry. Just to be sure you meant what you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Yes, I did, and in what you quoted too (one non-creature plant per HD). Though... hm. Actually it is a bit awkward. Your first example is correct, balanced by the fact that they can't move around the battlefield and that it's pretty situational (five Huge trees within 25 feet of you - you're probably in a forest or at least a small grove, and that's exactly the sort of place this should excel). I'll remove the parenthetical; it adds nothing and confuses the issue.
    Ok, I understand. I asked because I thought that the ability to control five CR 5 creatures at level five, even with limitations, could have seemed too much to someone. I like this, though. This makes you able to raise a small army to protect your forest when needed, enhancing roleplay. In fact, that's why I suggested to increase the radius: since it is a strongly defense-oriented ability, you should be able to protect a fair portion of territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Seemed clear enough to me. This prevents the breaking of action economy - you can have a lot of plants, but between all of them there's still only your normal set of actions. Let's say you've got a third-level Druid in someone's front yard controlling Shrub A, Tree B, and Potted Marigold C. Between the three of them, the Druid can still only make their normal set of actions. So, for example, Tree B could make an on some monster trying to kill the druid (standard action) while Potted Marigold C rings the person's doorbell (Move action), but then Shrub A couldn't try to trip the monster or cast a spell (unless the spell was a swift or immediate action).
    Yea, sorry, it's just me having troubles with english from time to time. I understand now, thanks. Nothing to say here.

    One last thing: Why you chose to limit the duration to 10 rounds/charisma when Wild Shape lasts for hours? I don't think that giving it the same duration of Wild Shape would be unfair. Also, now that I notice it, Druids don't benefit from charisma at all. This is a way to reduce SADness I believe. Not a bad idea, but I feel you need to give more rewards from pumping charisma other than increasing the duration. For example, creatures need to succeed in a save against your Wis to avoid being controlled: you could make Cha check instead of Wis.

    Just my two cents. As I said, I really like this take on the Druid (my favourite core class, that is :D).

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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Dixit View Post
    Here:



    I know it's fluff text and thus not binding. I was really nitpicking here, sorry. Just to be sure you meant what you wrote.



    Ok, I understand. I asked because I thought that the ability to control five CR 5 creatures at level five, even with limitations, could have seemed too much to someone. I like this, though. This makes you able to raise a small army to protect your forest when needed, enhancing roleplay. In fact, that's why I suggested to increase the radius: since it is a strongly defense-oriented ability, you should be able to protect a fair portion of territory.



    Yea, sorry, it's just me having troubles with english from time to time. I understand now, thanks. Nothing to say here.

    One last thing: Why you chose to limit the duration to 10 rounds/charisma when Wild Shape lasts for hours? I don't think that giving it the same duration of Wild Shape would be unfair. Also, now that I notice it, Druids don't benefit from charisma at all. This is a way to reduce SADness I believe. Not a bad idea, but I feel you need to give more rewards from pumping charisma other than increasing the duration. For example, creatures need to succeed in a save against your Wis to avoid being controlled: you could make Cha check instead of Wis.

    Just my two cents. As I said, I really like this take on the Druid (my favourite core class, that is :D).
    As far as the "merging with plants" thing - it says your mind merges with plants. Nothing about what happens to your body. You use this in the city with no plants around (assuming you're not really high level), you're not controlling anything. That's a separate thing entirely to the camouflage.

    Hm. I like the switching of the check from Wis to Cha. Unsure about the duration change - I made this a while ago, and was trying very hard to make it not be stronger than Wildshape while at the same time not really getting it. Maybe up it to your Charisma modifier in hours, instead of minutes as it is now? That puts it on a different curve from Wildshape, but still plenty of time. And perhaps make it 10' per HD instead of 5'. Making some of it scale on your HD instead of on your Wildshaping level was intentional - means it scales with raw power (though you still need to take Druid levels, or something else that advances Wildshape, to get the other benefits).

    Wait, I had a better idea for range. Maybe instead of increasing the range to 10' per HD, I'll make it so that (at... fourth level, say) the range counts from any plant you're controlling, not just your body.

    Thoughts on these modifications? The duration and range ones are pretty big changes, so I'm not committing them into the first post just yet. Wisdom was replaced with Charisma for the control checks, though - that doesn't seem like too much to do, considering it already scales off that.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2014-07-16 at 05:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: One with Nature (Druid ACF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    As far as the "merging with plants" thing - it says your mind merges with plants. Nothing about what happens to your body. You use this in the city with no plants around (assuming you're not really high level), you're not controlling anything. That's a separate thing entirely to the camouflage.
    Mmm ok. I think we clarified this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Maybe up it to your Charisma modifier in hours, instead of minutes as it is now?
    Sure, why not. Seems reasonable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I'll make it so that (at... fourth level, say) the range counts from any plant you're controlling, not just your body.
    It's fine. Area of effect should be enough now, without going too far.

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