Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XVIII

[dextercorvia]

I went to check the description, to answer your question and this is what I found:

A dark hunter prepares and casts spells just as a sorcerer does and the spells are arcane.

Apparently, their spells are just a trick. Can we get a ruling as to whether they are a prepared class or a spontaneous class?

Either way, they will have ASF.

[gbprime]

That only leaves my ASF question, which I assume is a "yes".

Safe assumption, yeah.

[Talbot]

I'm not great at CO (I'm ok, but not contest-worthy), and I've never judged before, but I'd be down to judge, especially as there seems to be a need for more judges.

[Amphetryon]

Are we assuming the REF save listed for levels 7 - 10 is a typo, or a really spiffy progression?

[dextercorvia]

Are we assuming the REF save listed for levels 7 - 10 is a typo, or a really spiffy progression?

It's just level 6 that is off. This is a really horrible write-up. To think, it doesn't appear in print. They could have fixed it at any time.

[Amphetryon]

I went to check the description, to answer your question and this is what I found:



Apparently, there spells are just a trick. Can we get a ruling as to whether they are a prepared class or a spontaneous class?

Either way, they will have ASF.

They prepare spells. Sorcerers do too, after a fashion.

[dextercorvia]

They prepare spells. Sorcerers do too, after a fashion.

I'm not sure I follow you here. I could see the argument that they prepare spells just like a sorcerer, ie. they don't. But, what do you mean sorcerers do to?

[Amphetryon]

I'm not sure I follow you here. I could see the argument that they prepare spells just like a sorcerer, ie. they don't. But, what do you mean sorcerers do to?

I mean, Sorcerers are not list-casters like Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, or Warmages. They have to select specific spells which they can cast; they can then cast those spells more freely than a book-caster like a Wizard can.

I will grant that there were no list-casters published to my knowledge for 3.0, which is where the Unseelie Dark Hunter's publication range appears to fall.

[OMG PONIES]

I don't think that's correct. I can look at it again, but I think that avoiding the +2 per class thing is a further variant.

AFAIK, you add together all levels for your build that provide the good save progression, which means you add +2.5 for the first good save level, and only +0.5 for every level thereafter.

I mean, Sorcerers are not list-casters like Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, or Warmages. They have to select specific spells which they can cast; they can then cast those spells more freely than a book-caster like a Wizard can.

I will grant that there were no list-casters published to my knowledge for 3.0, which is where the Unseelie Dark Hunter's publication range appears to fall.

Sorry, amph, but I don't agree about there being two classes of spontaneous caster. From the SRD:

[A sorcerer] can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time...

That's a spontaneous caster. Yes, it's more limited by its spells known than a full-list caster like a beguiler. However, that doesn't make it a prepared caster. A sorcerer's spells known are not repicked every day.

[dextercorvia]

I think I would like to switch to judging as well.

[Talbot]

Since I've never judged before, I think it's fair for me to give contestants some idea of what I look for. So, stealing a page from OMGPonies book:

Spoiler

Show

Originality

* 1: If your build's main trick(s) is(are) something I've seen a lot of before (for example, I don't really care how high you can get your charging damage unless you're doing it differently/in an interesting way, and if your build is a chain-tripper there should be more to it than Combat Reflexes and Knockdown), look forward to this score.
* 2: As long as you do something new/interesting, you will get at least this score.
* 3: If you're doing something new by using a lot of old pieces, you'll likely end up here.
* 4: Once I start going "Wow, I never would have thought of that", you're here and it's a good place to be.
* 5: If I spend the whole time going "Wow, I never would have thought of that", you're here, and it's the best place to be.

Note: Your backstory can score you a half a point, maybe a full point if it's really stellar, but you can get a five without it and won't be penalized for it in any way.


Power

* 1: Can't consistently beat a core-only Monk.
* 2: It works ok, but it's not going to stand out in most parties.
* 3: Nothin' special, but does its job.
* 4: At this point you're doing your job significantly better than most.
* 5: If your build is stronger than everyone else in the contest, and can stand up to a well-optimized build of the same role (don't worry, your melee build doesn't have to beat a full-caster... but your full-caster ought to be able to), then you'll snag a 5.

Elegance

* 1: If the build relies on exclusively on extremely iffy or cheesy tactics, you've earned a 1.
* 2: Assuming your build is at least mostly rules-legal, I'm basically starting you here and expecting you to move up.
* 3: Do the pieces fit together well? Better than the more obvious/conventional choices would have? If you're using cheese, is it reasonable enough that most if not all DMs would allow it? Getting past this point will require that your build has at least some versatility.
* 4: At this point you probably shouldn't have more than one dip, and I should see a lot of your classes complimenting each other in multiple ways. Doing everything you can to get SAD is nice, but not enough. At this point, if there's cheese, it shouldn't be much more than a light dusting of Parmesan.
* 5: Every class contributes in multiple meaningful ways and things fit together so well that when thinking of your character later I won't be able to remember the build so much as how (and how well) the character works; essentially, if it transcends class distinctions and becomes an entity unto itself, it gets a 5. If you dip, it better make a lot of sense and have a lot of payoff. And my 5s are lactose-intolerant.

Note: Builds that don't come really become interesting/useful till after level 10 can't score higher than a 3. Builds that don't become interesting/useful till after level 7 can't top a 4.

Use of the Secret Ingredient (UoSI)

* 1: You've included it because it's required, but your build doesn't actually benefit from it.
* 2: It contributes... in the same way the 12th man on a basketball team contributes.
* 3: It is now a vital part of the build. Probably the focal-point.
* 4: You've taken all levels of the Ingredient and/or you're making at least some use of all its Class Features.
* 5: Everything else you've taken serves to elevate the SI, and it's unmistakably the centerpiece of the build. More than that, it's using all of its features effectively and efficiently.

Note: You can potentially snag a 5 without using every feature or taking every level, but you better be getting a heck of a lot of mileage out of the features and levels you did take. I don't recommend this approach. Bonus points for getting the SI in early while still keeping the build playable.

As you can see, I'm pretty stingy with my 5s, but I'm also unlikely to give out 1s. I will get annoyed by builds that are poorly explained, and therefore less receptive to challenges/corrections later. I don't really expect that to come up, but in case it does I figured I'd mention it now.

[Xodion]

I've looked at this class, and nothing is really standing out for me, so I think I'll sit out this time. This week is going to be pretty busy too, so I won't have time even if I get an idea .

Good luck everyone

[gbprime]

I've looked at this class, and nothing is really standing out for me

It's a doozy, to be sure. Trying to make good use of all the PrC's features while getting decent originality points... I've puzzled and puzzled til my puzzler is sore, as they say. But I finally have something, just gotta do the formatting.

[OMG PONIES]

I'm in--back to competing. The only points I hope to earn are style points.

[Clepto]

Eh. Once again, I have to bow out of this one. I can't think of any build that would be improved much by this PrC, and most of the ones I've come up with actually lose quite a bit of effectiveness. Oh well. Better luck next time.

Good luck to those still in the game.

[Urpriest]

AFAIK, you add together all levels for your build that provide the good save progression, which means you add +2.5 for the first good save level, and only +0.5 for every level thereafter.

Nope. One of the examples is a Clr 5/Ftr 2 with a base Fort bonus of +7. The rules simply say that you add fractions from the classes, not that you treat all progressions as part of one big ur-progression.

[Thurbane]

Just a note: Even if people can't think of a way to use this PrC to mechanically enhance a character, Power is only one of the judging criteria. A good thematic build, with a nice backstory, can still do quite well.

Quite a few of the PrCs featured in Iron Chef have been mechanically subpar (especially compared to something like straight Druid or Wizard), so the build doesn't have to be all about enhancing the base class(es) of the build.

...of course, a character that is very weak mechanically is likely to take a significant hit in Power (and probably Elegance, too).

[Amechra]

Almost done with a second. How is everyone doing?

[kestrel404]

Have a build, writing background now. I just wish I had a bit more free time this week - it's been ridiculous at home and at the office so unless I set aside a bit of time for myself I'm probably not going to finish in time.

[OMG PONIES]

Trying to format, flesh out, and submit my build by the deadline. Is it just me, or have the past few rounds had a shorter submission window than previous ones?

[gbprime]

Shorter, no. More head scratching required for a build? Yes.

Still formatting.

[Private-Prinny]

I've got a hefty schedule this week, but then most of my commitments vanish next week. If there is still an open judging spot, I'll take it.

[Akal Saris]

I would have liked to enter, but RL has conspired against me and put my career-advancing exam on Friday

Perhaps if I somehow have any energy afterwards I shall enter however. I've had 3 build ideas, though none of them have been developed yet.

[Waker]

Yeah, I've been going back and forth between about half a dozen builds, but I think I've settled on my decision. Hopefully it'll do well.

[Zaq]

I submitted my build last weekend. I have an interesting idea for a second, but I'm not certain I have the time or energy to do more than the outline of it.

[Amechra]

I have discarded my second build as untenable. I just couldn't get the last piece of information I needed.

[Draz74]

Yeesh, I shouldn't even be spending time making one entry ... and some people manage to do two or more? Mind-boggling.

Not to mention, even if I had loads of free time I only have one idea for this Secret Ingredient.

[dextercorvia]

I had two. One of them was incredibly cheesy and would have scored rather poorly on UoSI -- It worked for Dark Hunter, but would have worked equally well or better with a number of other indep. casting PrC's.

The other one really benefited from Dark Hunter, but was a little unoriginal and I couldn't get all of the qualifications for DH without being really obvious about it.

[Amphetryon]

Crunch done. Still working on the fluff.

[Amphetryon]

Whew. Done. Build submitted.