Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XVIII

[Amechra]

I briefly considered a Shaper 5/UDH 8/Constructor 7, using the Personal Construct ACF. Discarded as focused on Constructor.

[dextercorvia]

3.5 builds yet to evaluate. Hopefully, I'll be done tomorrow.

[Amphetryon]

3.5 builds yet to evaluate. Hopefully, I'll be done tomorrow.

I thought all the builds were 3.5.

[dextercorvia]

Well, UDH is 3.0, and I had considered taking advantage of that to use some un-updated 3.0 material. While technically fine, this has often meant a hit in elegance in the past. I had hoped judges would overlook that on account of the secret ingredient.

[Amphetryon]

Well, UDH is 3.0, and I had considered taking advantage of that to use some un-updated 3.0 material. While technically fine, this has often meant a hit in elegance in the past. I had hoped judges would overlook that on account of the secret ingredient.

I just couldn't get it to work elegantly with Candle Caster.

[true_shinken]

I just couldn't get it to work elegantly with Candle Caster.

That class is so weird. Oh, god.

[Cieyrin]

That class is so awesome!. Oh yes!

Fixed that for you.

[Draz74]

3.5 builds yet to evaluate. Hopefully, I'll be done tomorrow.

I hope so. I'm not sure IC has ever gone this long without a single Judge's results before.

[Talbot]

Sorry about that. My hangovers keep getting interrupted by stuff to do, and that's the time I'd planned to spend judging. I'll get super drunk tonight, though, and lose my phone or something and make sure to get a big chunk done tomorrow.

[Urpriest]

Sorry about that. My hangovers keep getting interrupted by stuff to do, and that's the time I'd planned to spend judging. I'll get super drunk tonight, though, and lose my phone or something and make sure to get a big chunk done tomorrow.

You judge while hung over? That explains so much...

Actually I don't remember your judging style. But it probably does, doesn't it?

[Thurbane]

While we're waiting for the juding, I'll throw out a couple of suggestions/requests for upcoming comps:

• Death Delver (HoH): 10 level PrC with it's own limited divine casting, mishmash of abilities, awesome capstone and interesting fluff. The challenge is getting it to synergize with any other (base) classes.
• Shadowblade (ToM): 10 level PrC focussed around imbuing your weapon with quasi-magical abilities drawn from the plane of shadow. Medium BAB, so the challenge would be using it in an effective melee build.

[Zonugal]

While we're waiting for the juding, I'll throw out a couple of suggestions/requests for upcoming comps:

• Death Delver (HoH): 10 level PrC with it's own limited divine casting, mishmash of abilities, awesome capstone and interesting fluff. The challenge is getting it to synergize with any other (base) classes.

Yes, YES!!! Please do the Death Delver.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would actualy prefer to see some shadowblade builds, shadow magic is not as widespread as it should.

[dextercorvia]

I just couldn't get it to work elegantly with Candle Caster.

You would have had to be a Goblin.

[Zaq]

Fun Fact: Death Delver was my original choice for divine caster for Aesc in the Ardent Dilettante competition.

[T.G. Oskar]

I would actualy prefer to see some shadowblade builds, shadow magic is not as widespread as it should.

Shadow magic requires a slight bit of finesse to make it work. The thing is that while you can take advantage of some stuff (Child of Shadow and Noctumancer come to mind), the rest relies on the Shadowcaster mysteries, which are rather weak if you come to think about it. They aren't weak in that a spell can do mostly the same, but that you have far too little options to use them; at the very best, they are 1/day spells. Not enough options to upgrade them into spell-like abilities. The shadowcaster is great if you know how to use it, since eventually you get 3/day supernatural abilities out of your lower-level mysteries, but it's the lack of uses that make shadowcasting unsurprising. And the lack of choices: you get only 69 mysteries, with the only other support being a web enhancement for Cityscape. Meanwhile, Incarnum got much more support, Binding (of the same book!) got more support, and just about everything except maneuvers and truenaming got support. And of the latter two, shadowcasting is already better than truenaming (aside from Zaq using it) and ToB is just right at the point between "complete" and "needs a bit more".

Judging by the spirit of the competition, though, Shadowblade is the definite choice, since it's rather hard to optimize. Death Delver, on the other hand...it's just too easy to optimize, given that what it gives is just pretty. Far too pretty. And it's pretty independent, so it's not hard to optimize with base classes:

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For the love of all that's good and sacred, you get Rebuke Undead! You don't use Rebuke Undead in such a weak way to get undead under your control, you get them for Divine Feats! That's free access to a great deal of divine feats, and just about everyone will get good benefit from it, but specifically martial classes which will just enjoy the added boons from Divine Might and Divine Shield and probably Divine Armor and whatnot.

Besides, the spells aren't half as bad. So I'd give my vote to shadowcasting, which should really be a challenge to behold.

Speaking of challenges...shinken, have you already posted the trophies of the earlier competition, or are you waiting for this one to finish to unveil both?

[gbprime]

Speaking of challenges...shinken, have you already posted the trophies of the earlier competition, or are you waiting for this one to finish to unveil both?

He's a master of suspense, for sure.

[OMG PONIES]

Speaking of suspense...judges?

[true_shinken]

Speaking of challenges...shinken, have you already posted the trophies of the earlier competition, or are you waiting for this one to finish to unveil both?

Jumilk promised to make'em this weekend.

[Grynning]

Speaking of suspense...judges?

Sorry, I've been heavily distracted lately and haven't been able to sit down and get in the mindset. I'll definitely try this weekend.

[Clepto]

While we're waiting for the juding, I'll throw out a couple of suggestions/requests for upcoming comps:

• Death Delver (HoH): 10 level PrC with it's own limited divine casting, mishmash of abilities, awesome capstone and interesting fluff. The challenge is getting it to synergize with any other (base) classes.
• Shadowblade (ToM): 10 level PrC focussed around imbuing your weapon with quasi-magical abilities drawn from the plane of shadow. Medium BAB, so the challenge would be using it in an effective melee build.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do either of those, particularly the Shadowblade (I <3 Shadow magic). But, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the SI is drawn from Core and Completes (and now Online) so that more people would have access to them. I have access to them, and I'd imagine that most CO people on these boards do, but I'd put money on some people not being able to compete because they don't have those books.

[true_shinken]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do either of those, particularly the Shadowblade (I <3 Shadow magic). But, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the SI is drawn from Core and Completes (and now Online) so that more people would have access to them. I have access to them, and I'd imagine that most CO people on these boards do, but I'd put money on some people not being able to compete because they don't have those books.

The SI is mostly drawn for Core+Completes. We've had many SI from books out of those (Book of Exalted Deeds, Planar Handbook and XPH spring to mind). The next SI will be from Core+Completes, though.

[Cieyrin]

The SI is mostly drawn for Core+Completes. We've had many SI from books out of those (Book of Exalted Deeds, Planar Handbook and XPH spring to mind). The next SI will be from Core+Completes, though.

Shadowbane Inquisitor (CAd)?

I'd be all over that in a heartbeat, favorite "underpowered" PrC besides Scion of Tem-Et-Nu. The problem would be making something 'original,' as I've spouted a couple nice builds around the Inquisitor prior on these boards, but one can only hope.

[Zaq]

Core + Completes next? I have to wait at least another iteration for my Incandescent Champion? *sad puppydog eyes*

I'm so judging in that one. So judging.

Maybe Dungeon Delver (CAdv) would be interesting? It's a solid but not amazing class with a very clear focus. Like Blade Bravo, the challenge would be making it unique and interesting without sacrificing what makes it tick.

That said, I still think Geomancer (CD) would be interesting. Anyone can get in with whatever level of early entry shenanigans you're comfortable with and still get a character with 8th or 9th level spells . . . but can you justify taking it instead of taking anything else? That's the challenge.

[Thurbane]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do either of those, particularly the Shadowblade (I <3 Shadow magic). But, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the SI is drawn from Core and Completes (and now Online) so that more people would have access to them. I have access to them, and I'd imagine that most CO people on these boards do, but I'd put money on some people not being able to compete because they don't have those books.

That's true...but as TS pointed out, it's mostly core and completes.

Have a look through nearly all of the past entries - there's hardly one that doesn't have levels or feats plucked from the more "obscure" books. Heck, I own basically all of the non-campaign-specific 3.5 books, and there's always stuff in some of the entries I've never even heard of.

[dextercorvia]

Here goes...

Skullface

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First of all, I like the fill-in character to cover the first 3 levels. I would have preferred if he were a little more fleshed out, but that might have detracted from the Secret Ingredient. Now, I was about to bash you that Krenshar is indeed cohort only, thanks to d20srd.com, but I checked the official SRD, and the MM errata, and it appears that you are correct. Nice find.

Krenshar gets full BAB for their RHD, by the way. But, bah, more ranger.

Fangshield is setting specific and involves membership in an organization that is at odds with serving the QoAaD. Tainted Scholar is standard TO fare. It quite overshadows the Secret Ingredient in this case. Yes you are amplifying the strengths (spellcasting) of Unseelie Dark Hunter, but you are also illustrating that almost any arcane spellcating class would better benefit from Tainted Scholar. Taking Clarity of True Madness was perfect for this, though, because it convinces me that you can actually return to Unseelie Dark Hunter and finish it. Since you are running at Severe Depravity though, that should put your effective casting stat in the 50's at minimum, which would translate to 6-7 bonus first level ranger spells. That is a lot to trade away for Blind-Fight.

While the Fey Heritage/Power/Legacy line may fit thematically, the Fiendish line would have been more powerful and not outside the flavor of Skulface. Fiendish Power would apply it's +1 CL to all of your spells thanks to Tainted Scholar. Fiendish Legacy grants Teleport instead of Dimension Door and SMV instead of SNAV. Neither Confusion nor Unholy Blight are great, but Unholy Blight is at least not another Mind Effecting spell. I'm not claiming that even this would be an efficient use of three feats, simply that you missed a numerically superior, thematically similar option on the same page. I see where you were going with Fey Skin, but I'm not sure the difference between 15 and 19 points of DR/Cold Iron makes that worthwhile.

The Creeper

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Ranger5 is the expected entry for Unseelie Dark Hunter. Urban Companion is functionally very similar to Summon Familiar, but it isn't the same ability. This would prevent you from qualifying for Fleshwarper. Starspawn gives you the ability to fly very late in your career, and costs you two practically useless feats. (So useless that you never mention which benefit of Aberration Blood that you picked up).

While The Creeper fits with the Unseelie Abomination theme, he seems to have no tactics other than "fatiguing his prey from running."

On the spell selection, ECL8 is probably early enough that you will get some use out of Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance, these will quickly fade.

Perpetua

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Clever use of Tribal Ardent and Aereni Focus to qualify for the secret ingredient. It was also refreshing to see Anarchic Initiate. While Unseelie Dark Hunter is adding a lot of mobility to your blaster (never a bad thing), it is doing so at the cost of PP which are already at a premium for an Ardent. Even with a +6 item factored in, I estimate your daily PP at ~140. Your build suffers from the same problems as a Druid going into the SI. More Ardent/AI would have benefited this character more than the SI. The spoiled princess turned expert survivalist is both a bit of a stretch and somewhat overdone.

You can only access Metafacutly at 20th through acrobatics, and with a reduced ML. At ECL 20, Your chance of failure against a CL 20 Mind Blank is 40%. At 17 PP and 1000XP, that is an expensive gamble. Your primary attack is rather weak, dealing an average of 74 damage per round at level 20. Earlier, you get more bang out of Overchannel. But, with a d6+1 HD throughout your career, it is also exceedingly dangerous.

You only mentioned it in passing, so no deduction, but I'm fairly certain that as an ACF, you can only take Dominant Ideal if you hit Ardent 10.

Reek

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I always forget about the Wilderness Rogue. I'm not sure about that 3rd level of it though -- it seems to only be for the skills. Practiced Spellcaster does not increase Eldritch Blast damage -- that scales with Warlock Level not Caster Level. Taking away that and your Chasuble, your EB caps out at 3d6. UMD is strong though, and you have enough to use any wand or staff. I like that your pets don't seem like they were tacked on to the story, but an integral part of the build itself. Beast Heart adept is a nice touch, and that is a lot of Wild Empathy.

Tamalin

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Ranger5 is the expected point of entry for Unseelie Dark Hunter. Three different associations, the only one of which really fits your backstory is the Knights of the North. Their fluff implies strongly that they would ferret out applicants with loyalty to something other than them, especially a capriciously evil queen. A one off comment about an introduction is not a justification in your back-story.

I do like the mechanical benefit of Shooting Star to augment UDH casting.

You have presented a highly maneuverable aerial archer build without any source of damage. The only archery feats you have are Rapid Shot, and Mounted Archery. DR will eat you alive at mid to high levels.

I like Wild Cohort for this secret ingredient, but your text and table disagree Boar vs. Badger. Etiher way, I'm not sure why you would want a land bound creature once you already have an aerial mount capable of great speed.

You wasted spells known on Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance at ECL 11. By then, these needs should be handled by basic equipment.

Faltino

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One of my two thoughts for Unseelie Dark Hunter involved a totemist, so it wasn't completely unexpected, but at least it isn't more ranger. So you have a charger/light magic gish. 13 BAB is low for a Gish. The totemist entry, while awesome for this Secret Ingredient, is hard on BAB. Normally, the Totemist gets around this by using Natural Weapons, but you are relying on a lance for your Sprited Charge. Also, without Pounce, you aren't taking advantage of your iteratives either. You would likely have been better to Bind Girallon Claws and Sphinx Claws for 4 attacks at x2 damage rather than one at X3.

Anyspell will not help you since you do not have a domain slot in which to prepare your Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Also, it is only of marginal benefit since you have had the ability as a Chameleon to prepare any arcane spell you would have used for Anyspell since level 6.

Chameleon, by the way, has some steep RP prereq's, which you seemed to have missed in your backstory. I get the dual 'allegiance' thing, but no mention of your training.

Ogar

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Ranger Dip and Barbarian is quite an expected point of entry. Ogar does not qualify for Howler Familiar at ECL12 with Arcane Spellcaster level of 5. (Krau Sigil does not work that way.)

I find it questionable whether Bear Form is an improved rage ability, since it is something that you can do while raging, but even if your DM allows it, it doesn't work the way you want. Your mount loses the benefits of rage as soon as you become dismounted. When you both turn into bears, you are now the same size category.... I'm fairly certain that you can't ride a creature of the same size, which would lead to an auto-dismount situation.

This is a rage focused character that can only Rage 2/day. You should have found a way to fit Extra Rage into the build.

Two problems with Arcane Strike. You don't get extra slots from temp stat boosts. (Spell slots refresh after 8 hours rest and 15 minutes of meditation -- raging isn't restful even if you could do it for so long. An all day wildshaping character, may be able to make the argument, but not Bear Warrior.) And, Arcane Strike only applies to one of your weapons which makes it less useful when using natural attacks. (You specifically mentioned doing this while in Bear Rage since you couldn't use your slots normally then.) However, this does help you with the encounters that happen when you aren't raging.

I think Bull's Strength is going to be a wasted spell. By, ECL10, this benefit should be provided to a melee character by a standard item.

Most of your problems would have been solved if you had picked a mount capable of holding you in Bear form. Then you could have applied the standard rage benefits to the mount.

Tamlaine

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Ranger dip, but Knight was unexpected. Silverwood Arcanist has light fluff about being a protector of the Silverwood, but that doesn't come through in the actual requirements. It is a good fit with UDH thematically and mechanically. The Share Spells is especially a nice touch.

Tamlaine needs to decide whether to be a Controller or a Charger. You choose a Pouncing Raker for a mount, but take Combat Relfexes+Stand Still as feats. Your build is slanted somewhat more toward control than damage. Either way, you remain a Melee focused character with a 14 BAB, no source of bonus damage, and your only source of extra attacks is combat reflexes. Low Dex is going to limit your effectiveness as a tank/battlefield control. Your reach is only coming from a reach weapon. The only one you mention by name is one you are not proficient with. Low strength is going to lead to low damage, which will translate to Low DC's on Stand Still. At ECL 8 assuming a +4 enhancement Tamlaine will have an 18 strength. Assuming a Glaive or similar this will put the DC for Stand Still at an average of 21.5. This isn't too bad. He'll be able to disable a number of CR 8 melee critters 75% of the time. But it is only going to scale based on 1.5*Str bonus, which will top out at a +5 without access to a tome. Even with a +4 tome and a +6 item, the DC of his Stand Still will cap at an average of about 26.

I stand by my earlier statement that Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace may get some use at ECL 8, but they will quickly be replaced by standard equipment.

Servant

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So you have a Dragon Ninja Owl that shoots icy lazers from its beak. Cool. Shadow Pounce with Natural attacks and a move action teleport yields a very nice attack routine. This isn't a completely original build but it plays nicely to the strengths of Unseelie Dark Hunter without succumbing to the (many) weaknesses. I have two main beefs with this build. The first is that it really needs Multiattack since your BAB tops out at +14. The second involves the Dragon Tail soulmeld. I know we have both seen it called a natural attack. But it takes a standard action to use, doesn't threaten, and can't be used to make attacks of opportunity. It isn't even called a tail attack. Some DM's (myself included) would be inclined to not allow a secondary attack with it. This has the potential to be very strong, but the build still feels a little unfinished.

The Scores

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Scores
{table=head]\|Skullface|The Creeper|Perpetua|Reek|Tamalin|Faltino|Ogar|Tamlaine|Servant
Originality |4 |2 |3 |4 |2 |3 |1.5|2.5|4

Power |3 |1 |3 |3 |1.5|2 |2 |2 |4

Elegance |1.5|2 |2.5|2.5|1 |2.5|1.5|3.5|3.5

Use of Secret Ingredient|3 |3 |2 |5 |3 |3 |3.5|3 |3.5

Total |11.5|8 |10.5|14.5|7.5|10.5|8.5|11|15
[/table]

[kestrel404]

Yay, judging! How's everyone else coming along? Any chance of the another judge chiming in this weekend?

[Grynning]

my weekend doesn't start until Tuesday, but I hope to have mine up by that evening.

[Clepto]

The SI is mostly drawn for Core+Completes. We've had many SI from books out of those (Book of Exalted Deeds, Planar Handbook and XPH spring to mind). The next SI will be from Core+Completes, though.

That's true...but as TS pointed out, it's mostly core and completes.

Have a look through nearly all of the past entries - there's hardly one that doesn't have levels or feats plucked from the more "obscure" books. Heck, I own basically all of the non-campaign-specific 3.5 books, and there's always stuff in some of the entries I've never even heard of.

I realize that they don't always come from Core+Completes, I was mostly just wondering. I either have, or have access to, the greater majority of 3.5 material, but that's not the case for everyone. If I ever get inspired by one of the SI's one of these days, I'll happily compete regardless of source. That being said, there are a lot of nifty PrCs in the Complete set that don't get much love.

Someone mentioned Geomancer earlier, and I'd be all in for that. I'd also be in for anything that's less casty.

[true_shinken]

Someone mentioned Geomancer earlier, and I'd be all in for that. I'd also be in for anything that's less casty.

I think something less casty would be in order, yes.