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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    One of my players wants to make a character who primarily attacks with a shield. I noticed that shield bash wasn't on the weapons table in the PHB, so is it possible to bash with a normal shield? I know about the spiked shield in AV, and there's a few Fighter powers that push with a shield after an attack with a weapon, but I'm curious what it takes to bash with a regular shield as your primary attack form.

    EDIT: The campaign is set in Dark Sun. All pre-Essentials sources are allowed.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2011-02-09 at 09:07 PM.
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    Mando Knight's Avatar

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Unless so allowed by a power (or it has a spike), a shield bash would be just an attack with an improvised weapon (the shield). I repeat: a shield is not a weapon, and so its use as such is an improvised weapon, no more effective than a chair. There are tricks for using shields offensively, but those are mostly covered by feats and powers... most of which are available to Fighters.

    The player might complain about this. Let him. Then ask him how he would fight armored warriors by using a shield instead of a hammer, sword, axe, or other weapon.
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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Also I believe there's a 4e prestige path based entirely on using two shields.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    Also I believe there's a 4e prestige path based entirely on using two shields.
    Oh, yeah... the Snapping Tetsudo. There are enough Fighter powers to make a Shield fighter viable... if you have a Spiked Shield to use with your at-wills. You'd need both Martial Powers and access to Dragons 382 and 385, though.
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    That class is so annoying and silly that it almost never see the light of day though
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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    The Fighter? Or the Snapping Tetsudo? The latter I'll give you (though it's a Paragon Path, not a Class), but it's pretty much exactly what the OP's looking for.
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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    I assume you're the DM.

    You could house rule the spiked shield to be a normal weapon, and then have the player take either fighter or ranger. The fighter gets abilities that incorporate a shield, while both have attacks that use 2 weapons.

    Though the fighter method would probably work the best.

    Also, not that there is a difference between 'using your shield to attack' and 'actually dealing damage with your shield'. Some abilities, such as Tide of Iron (I think) deal weapon damage, but can easily be flavored to be a simple shield bash.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by NMBLNG View Post
    I assume you're the DM.
    I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMBLNG View Post
    You could house rule the spiked shield to be a normal weapon
    It already is a weapon. My question was about using a normal shield as a weapon. Looks like Mando Knight's improvised weapon suggestion is the most accurate.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    One good way to do it if you do not like the various shield weapons is to go arena fighter. Arena fighters have an ability (among others) to treat all improvised weapons as +2 prof d8 damage weapons. Add an assassin or monk multiclass for a ki focus (to enhance your weapons) and you have a fair build. Inherent bonuses work as well.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    As Mando also suggested, if he is ok with being a fighter there are fighter powers that lets him use his shield offesively

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Wait, are people hating on the Snapping Testudo? Inconceivable! Seriously though, I love that Paragon Path so much.

    Also in dragon 385 are a number of magic items that are shields that count as weapons, including one as low as level 1.
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    One good way to do it if you do not like the various shield weapons is to go arena fighter. Arena fighters have an ability (among others) to treat all improvised weapons as +2 prof d8 damage weapons.
    This is true... and it is a Dark Sun campaign. Monk multiclass for the ki focus could also make sense... if he wants to smash his shield into a second opponent after he slaps the first.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    This is true... and it is a Dark Sun campaign. Monk multiclass for the ki focus could also make sense... if he wants to smash his shield into a second opponent after he slaps the first.
    You will be a defensive force. Just be sure to grab shield push.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    I'm with Reverent One, I actually PLAY a Snapping Tetsudo!
    "A little technobabble is good for the soul." -Captain Jack Harkness

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    Look at your Dark Sun Campaign Setting, pg. 86. The Arena Fighter's Arena Training gives you a +2 proficiency bonus with all improvised weapon (which a shield would be), and gives them 1d8 damage. Now use the shield with any power (including ones that let you do a secondary shield bash after your normal attack ). There you go.
    You have been ninjad! Or swordsaged. Wait what do we use for 4e?

    I agree though great choice. Pick a defensive weapon for your other hand as an arena weapon for more AC.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-02-09 at 11:45 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    You have been ninjad! Or swordsaged. Wait what do we use for 4e?
    Haha, yeah, I noticed just now and ninja'd you in deleting my original post!
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    Haha, yeah, I noticed just now and ninja'd you in deleting my original post!
    ooo sneaky.

    So Avengered? hmm which class to choose.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    ooo sneaky.

    So Avengered? hmm which class to choose.
    The monk makes a pretty good ninja in 4e.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    You have been ninjad! Or swordsaged. Wait what do we use for 4e?
    for hilarity's sake, call it Monked
    I

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    You have been monked? hmm not too bad we shall see.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    You've been Hexbladed!
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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Snapping Tetsudo

    Throwing shield

    YOU... YOU... DOUBLE CAPTAIN AMERICA.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    farbound spell blade spiked shield works too.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Since it's Dark Sun, have him pick up Weapon Proficency (Turtle Shell) at first opportunity and make his At-Wills Shield Feint and Tide of Iron. Then Snapping Testudo at Paragon.

    Also, the only reason people pick on Snapping Testudo is because it is equal parts ridiculous and surprisingly optimal.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox Box Socks View Post
    Since it's Dark Sun, have him pick up Weapon Proficency (Turtle Shell) at first opportunity and make his At-Wills Shield Feint and Tide of Iron. Then Snapping Testudo at Paragon.

    Also, the only reason people pick on Snapping Testudo is because it is equal parts ridiculous and surprisingly optimal.
    The places I look often say it is alright power wise (definitely not great)though I have seen much worse. People pick on it because it is ridiculous and it is unusable by RAW and so technically you have to house rule in order to use the class as it does not make an exception anywhere in the paragon path that offsets the rule that you cannot wield two shields.

    My favorite combo is arena fighter with gauntlet axe as an arena weapon and turtle shell/spiked shield (they are the same exact thing) with the rhythm blade enhancement. Do not take proficiency with the spiked shield in this case. Since your an arena fighter your damage actually improves with the spiked shield from a d6-d8. You actually wield it better being not proficient with this weapon.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    The places I look often say it is alright power wise (definitely not great)though I have seen much worse. People pick on it because it is ridiculous and it is unusable by RAW and so technically you have to house rule in order to use the class as it does not make an exception anywhere in the paragon path that offsets the rule that you cannot wield two shields.
    Wait, where is that rule?
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Do not take proficiency with the spiked shield in this case. Since your an arena fighter your damage actually improves with the spiked shield from a d6-d8. You actually wield it better being not proficient with this weapon.
    It's not an improvised weapon if it's a Spiked Shield (and you shouldn't get the enchantment bonus if you do treat it as such, in my opinion). That's just munchkinery of the sort that is defeated by a DM looking at you funny and saying "no."
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    It's not an improvised weapon if it's a Spiked Shield (and you shouldn't get the enchantment bonus if you do treat it as such, in my opinion). That's just munchkinery of the sort that is defeated by a DM looking at you funny and saying "no."
    You missed the arena fighter part or you do not know the abilities of the arena fighter.

    Arena fighters get many benefits but for this discussion this is what is important

    1) Arena fighters treat all weapons they are NOT proficient with as improvised weapons.

    2) Spiked shield is an exotic weapon so if you do not spend a feat (or an arena weapon slot) it is an improvised weapon for an arena fighter.

    3) Arena fighters treat all improvised weapons as +2 proficiency 1d8 damage weapons.

    4) Since my spiked shield is an improvised weapon it nows has those stats and is better for it.

    This is not a munchkin move it is by the book and intended.



    To Reverent-One


    The rule for no two shields is found on page 10 of the Adventurer's vault in the description of spiked shields

    "Although a character can not use two shields at the same time, a character wielding a spiked shield enchanted as a weapon can employ arm slot items such as bracers"

    I think what they mean to say is that you get no benefit from wearing a second shield and that a shield enchanted as a weapon still allows you to use magical arm slot items. Unfortunately that is not what it actually says and since there is no mention of an exception for the paragon path so it is technically RAW illegal. Of course any DM that is not a robot would allow this work so it is not a practical concern just a strict RAW curiosity.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-02-10 at 10:06 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    To Reverent-One


    The rule for no two shields is found on page 10 of the Adventurer's vault in the description of spiked shields

    "Although a character can not use two shields at the same time, a character wielding a spiked shield enchanted as a weapon can employ arm slot items such as bracers"

    I think what they mean to say is that you get no benefit from wearing a second shield and that a shield enchanted as a weapon still allows you to use magical arm slot items. Unfortunately that is not what it actually says and since there is no mention of an exception for the paragon path so it is technically RAW illegal. Of course any DM that is not a robot would allow this work so it is not a practical concern just a strict RAW curiosity.
    Eh, they say "use", not "wield", if we're going to be picky about it, then those aren't the same thing.
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Eh, they say "use", not "wield", if we're going to be picky about it, then those aren't the same thing.
    So can you wield something without using it?

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