The Fleshforge Legacy Mk. II [3.5 Campaign Setting, PEACH!]

[Sydonai]

Its true in Greyhawk as well, and most settings. The commoners in D&D worships to get into the shiny afterlife, not for the superpowers.

[MammonAzrael]

Its true in Greyhawk as well, and most settings. The commoners in D&D worships to get into the shiny afterlife, not for the superpowers.

Yes, they get into the afterlife. But as far as I'm away, only the Faerun actually uses the petitioner system. Because Ao is a giant douche. It is also unique in that if you don't worship a god you get seriously screwed over when you die, getting chucked into The Wall of the Faithless.

Ao sucks.

[Admiral Squish]

I thought we'd settled this already. There will not be petitioners. Why are we still on this?

When you die, exactly what becomes of your soul varies by the god. In most cases, you become a spirit, with full memory of your past life and all your usual abilities, except you can't leave the plane your soul landed on. Other cases, you might be transformed into a servant of the diety, like an angel or demon. Still other cases will just have your soul subsumed into the god themselves. Others put you into a cycle of reincarnation.

But anyways: I still need ideas for gods themselves, and I still need advice on how to handle the hiveling metamorphosis.

[MammonAzrael]

Do you want ever god to have a religion? It seems to me that the outer gods, at least, may not have any firm religious organization. Afterall, they have been ignoring Tryor for eons now, and yet they've gone and set up shop after a mere century?

As for the younger gods...to be honest I'm having a hard time coming up with ideas because I'm not really sure how one can become a god. So I'm unsure which gods would be ascended beings and which would have been born that way. Some bases to cover would be:

God of love
God of the seasons
Anamalistic god
Sun god
God of murderous hobos
Multiple racial gods as embodiments of their race
Raging/Warring gods, born of battle
Curious, exploratory god
Twisted, Shaper-like god
God of physical might
God of justice and general goodness
God of fanatical, overzealous justice

[Admiral Squish]

Do you want ever god to have a religion? It seems to me that the outer gods, at least, may not have any firm religious organization. Afterall, they have been ignoring Tryor for eons now, and yet they've gone and set up shop after a mere century?

As for the younger gods...to be honest I'm having a hard time coming up with ideas because I'm not really sure how one can become a god. So I'm unsure which gods would be ascended beings and which would have been born that way. Some bases to cover would be:

One hundred years is a pretty long time. It seems like it should be plenty of time, especially considering the fact that these gods are REAL, and can actually be like 'hey dudes, worshiop me, 'cause I'm awesome.' They're also competing amongst each other to gather support from Tryor and hedge out their rivals. Tryor is, potentially, the source of enough power for the eternal stalemate to break. He who wins Tryor will likely win all of the outer planes.

Generally one becomes a god in memory. Maybe some rare cases could step up to divinity while alive, but I think the majority would become divine post-mortem. Sort of a martyrdom/saint thing. However, a significant portion of gods would simply arise out of unified emotions and concepts.


Now, onto specific ideas:

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God of love: I'm thinking either this god should be male, or be a two-in-one god. Mostly 'cause I'm sick of all the feminine gods of love. I think this god would probably have a somewhat chaotic aspect, always appearing as the most physically appealing possible specimen to each person.

God of the seasons: Probably another multifarious diety. four sub-aspects, but all part of the same god(ess?). I did a little work of a fey court of seasons, I could probably base the aspects off the kings and queens.

Animalistic god: Yeah, this one was gonna happen. I'm not sure, though, which animal it should be based on, or if it should even be based on a single animal at all. I could have it be whatever animal is most appropriate at the moment, I suppose, but it feels like that might be cheating with all these multifarious gods.

Sun god: Yeah, this one's going to be interesting. I'll probably be stealing a lot from RL religions, and remixing them in, hopefully unexpected, ways.

God of murderous hobos: What is this I don't even-

Multiple racial gods as embodiments of their race: I dunno if I want to do full entries for each and every race's deities. Some of them would probably take on other gods as their paragns. Like, shifters worshiping the animal god.

Raging/Warring gods, born of battle: Always a strong option. I kinda have a vague idea that orcs and goilaths would either have feuding gods, or they would have the same god, the great general who led their combined forces to victory over the mind flayers. Each would believe the general to be their own race.

Curious, exploratory god: Definitely fits the theme of the world trying to figure itself out. Though I'm not sure if this should be an explorer, a scientist, or an arcane magic god.

Twisted, Shaper-like god: This would probably fit in with earlier ideas for the cults of the shapers returned.

God of physical might: Might be rolled into the war god(s).

God of justice and general goodness: Standard fare, but always solid.

God of fanatical, overzealous justice: Could certainly be fun to subvert the traditional 'justice' deity.

[Sydonai]

Animalistic God should be a hybrid of two-three different animals at once, and what those animals are change every few minutes.

[Halae]

When the mention of wargods came up, I started thinking of things like a triad meant to show all the different sides of war. Maybe Battle, Strife, and Victory? I don't now if you'd like the idea, just thought I'd throw it out there

[Sydonai]

I think Victory/Defeat is a better split for a war god. A split-personality, one that knows it will never be defeated, and one that suffers defeat. Naturally the Defeat side would be pi$$ed off about this situation.

[MammonAzrael]

Well I was thinking for the animal god, don't base it off of a single animal. have it be a mutable god, an amalgam of many different animals. Like a shifter with ever shifter trait, changing from one to another at will.

A God of seasons who's entire personality shifts with the changing of the seasons would be interesting. Kind of like an advanced PMS.

Murderous hobos = PCs.

[Admiral Squish]

Animalistic God should be a hybrid of two-three different animals at once, and what those animals are change every few minutes.

Hmm... I dunno, that has a sort of unnatural feel to it. Maybe one animal at a time, and it changes multiple times/minute? Such as, it would deliver a speech as an eagle, but it would deliver a threat in the form of a bear, or recommend caution as a rabbit. Whatever form fits at the moment.

When the mention of wargods came up, I started thinking of things like a triad meant to show all the different sides of war. Maybe Battle, Strife, and Victory? I don't now if you'd like the idea, just thought I'd throw it out there

I think Victory/Defeat is a better split for a war god. A split-personality, one that knows it will never be defeated, and one that suffers defeat. Naturally the Defeat side would be pi$$ed off about this situation.

Hmm. I'm not a fan of victory/defeat. Nobody would pray to defeat. Maybe we could divide them differently... Three motivations of war (Greed, glory, and rage)? Three stages of war (Peace, war, and grieving)? Victory would probably be a separate mini-god, like Nike.

Well I was thinking for the animal god, don't base it off of a single animal. have it be a mutable god, an amalgam of many different animals. Like a shifter with ever shifter trait, changing from one to another at will.

A God of seasons who's entire personality shifts with the changing of the seasons would be interesting. Kind of like an advanced PMS.

Murderous hobos = PCs.

See above.

Yeah, it's going to be pretty much like that. I'm thinking spring aspect would be a woman, sorta like the green lady from The Firebird Suite in Fantasia 2000. Winter would be a blue-skinned woman wearing a thick white fur cloak. Summer would a man armored to the neck in crimson and gold armor, with a face like the sun and flaming hair. Autumn... I'm thinking an elderly man, long beard, cloak of autumnal leaves.

Ohh, yeah, that makes sense...

[Sydonai]

Does the animalistic god represent animals or instinct or both? I say "both", but he'd take a different form depending on the situation.
If representing instinct then he should be a primitive/primal version of whoever he talks to.
If representing animals then he should look like a mix of as many animals would be aplicable for whatever hes doing.
If he hunts he should look like a wolf blending into a lion when he leaves the forest, blending into a shark when he leaves the plains, and blending into a hawk when he leaps out of the water, whatever is the most efficient regardless of aesthetic.

[Admiral Squish]

Does the animalistic god represent animals or instinct or both? I say "both", but he'd take a different form depending on the situation.
If representing instinct then he should be a primitive/primal version of whoever he talks to.
If representing animals then he should look like a mix of as many animals would be aplicable for whatever hes doing.
If he hunts he should look like a wolf blending into a lion when he leaves the forest, blending into a shark when he leaves the plains, and blending into a hawk when he leaps out of the water, whatever is the most efficient regardless of aesthetic.

Interesting takes. Perhaps all of them are within his portfolios.

Though, I would like to point out, for some reason a lot of folk seem to think that Animal = Predator. This is not so. Our god would just as likely be an elephant or a rabbit as a lion or wolf.

[Sydonai]

Exactly, the hunting thing was just an example.

[Admiral Squish]

Exactly, the hunting thing was just an example.

Yeah, just wanted to clarify. I've been guilty of it at times, myself.

[Super_Dave]

As promised, I've colored and scanned the final version of the Tryor map, which you can view on my deviantART page as well.

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[Admiral Squish]

Looks awesome! I've replaced the first page map with the new version. I thought you were going to recolor the area inside the crop ring, though?

[Lord_Gareth]

Will we be seeing racial substitution levels, Squish?

[Admiral Squish]

Will we be seeing racial substitution levels, Squish?

We might, should there be awesome enough suggestions/ideas for them.


Going back a bit, I'm working on the gods and I'm STILL having trouble coming up with more of the outer deities. I don't want to be really stereotypical with them, but I want them to really embody their respective alignments. So far, I'm still stuck with 3/8, and even those have only the most vague idaes. LE is Asmodeus, LN is a giant robot, and CN is a far realms/elder god thing. I want to avoid earthly themes and shaper creations. So, no 'nature' themes, no dwarves, none of that stuff. It shoots down a lot of potential ideas...

[MammonAzrael]

One hundred years is a pretty long time. It seems like it should be plenty of time, especially considering the fact that these gods are REAL, and can actually be like 'hey dudes, worshiop me, 'cause I'm awesome.' They're also competing amongst each other to gather support from Tryor and hedge out their rivals. Tryor is, potentially, the source of enough power for the eternal stalemate to break. He who wins Tryor will likely win all of the outer planes.

I didn't mention this earlier, but I do want to point out that I disagree. a century may be a very long time for humans, but that is because it is generally longer than a lifespan. For an immortal god that has been embroiled in war for over 5 eons, not so much. And who knows how old they actually are. Their attention returning to Tryor, and the potential to break the stalemate, I'd guess would have only recently returned. Enough so that by now they may all have minor religions that are building a following. The most opportunistic of the outer deities may have gotten a jump-start on worshipers, leading to a more powerful religious organization.

And these organizations sound like the kinds that will not be leaving each other in peace, but rather actively trying to exterminate one another, given the purpose of their founding. Which means dangerously zealous clerics and paladins, that won't support any other religions (at least, that is how I'm seeing it). Spreading them out over Tryor may help reduce the impact a bit, but still will remain very dangerous.

Back to the Outer Deities:

• LG - Given the black and white nature of morality in DnD, this deity could be a very good place for fascism. You better be good, or you're against this god. Not a lot of understanding, just the iron rule of "Good." It is the incarnation of always being "right." Can be helpful to the mindless masses that follow it, but also unreasonable and deadly. Makes me think of the way the Christian God is portrayed in this online story. A bit like the Azorius Guild if you play M:tG.
• NG - I can see this as one of the most forgiving and accepting of the deities. Everyone screws up, and should be allowed to make up for it. Kind and healing, it wants to protect but not take away freedoms.
• CG - Not sure...perhaps embracing the change and evolution of creatures, ideas, and ideals. A belief that Might makes Right, but should be used for the protection of the weak, instead of their domination. Strength of conviction is more powerful than tradition. Do what is right, regardless of the consequences, even if nations fall or the world burns as a result.
• CN - Not a fan of the Far Realms connection, TBH. Seems too likely to have allied with the Shapers. And the Far Realm isn't CN, it is beyond our understanding and comprehension of morality altogether. Change for the sake of change. Hatred of anything static or defined. Delight in randomness and coincidence. Deity of luck and fortune. Whimsical and impossible to predict. The antithesis and destroyer of anything even resembling prophecy.
• CE - Might makes Right, but you wield that power over those weaker, forcing them to do your bidding. Scheming and challenges for power probably make this the most powerful individual god, but a constantly changing and disrupted chain of command make it the most disorganized force. Enforcing your will and view on others is the only way of existence. Any attempt to define it or sacrifice for others is pointless and meaningless.
• NE - Always out for itself. Lying, stealing, cheating, betrayal, sabotage, manipulation, nothing is too far if it improves your lot. The multiverse rightly (in the god's mind), belongs to it, and the others are interlopers and thieves and liars. There are things precious to it, that it protects savagely, but it will make deals and honor its word...when the situations suits it.
• LE - Asmodeus works, but is kind of boring in that he has been done so many times. I know that he really does seem to be the embodiment of Lawful Evil, so it's hard to come up with anything else. Perhaps a less cut-throat environment, with more of a mob feel to it, a family that makes pretenses about honor. Very "lawyer" like (abusing loopholes and such), stiff and unyielding.
• LN - How can I say no to a Primus like god here? Modrons forever! Seriously though, a belief in order and formation, that everything has it's proper place. And those outside of that are aberrations that must be purged. The central source for prophecy, and enforcing them to come to pass. The antithesis of luck and random happenstance, it will seek out and destroy that which does not conform to laws. Despises randomness, preferring certainty, though probability is fine, assuming every option is calculable and capable of being predicted with accuracy.

Hopefully that gives some ideas.

[Admiral Squish]

I didn't mention this earlier, but I do want to point out that I disagree. a century may be a very long time for humans, but that is because it is generally longer than a lifespan. For an immortal god that has been embroiled in war for over 5 eons, not so much. And who knows how old they actually are. Their attention returning to Tryor, and the potential to break the stalemate, I'd guess would have only recently returned. Enough so that by now they may all have minor religions that are building a following. The most opportunistic of the outer deities may have gotten a jump-start on worshipers, leading to a more powerful religious organization.

And these organizations sound like the kinds that will not be leaving each other in peace, but rather actively trying to exterminate one another, given the purpose of their founding. Which means dangerously zealous clerics and paladins, that won't support any other religions (at least, that is how I'm seeing it). Spreading them out over Tryor may help reduce the impact a bit, but still will remain very dangerous.

True enough, but you can't win a war by having slow reflexes. The gods would perceive time at the same speed as any other race, possibly even faster. So, while yes, they have been at this for a very, very long time, a hundred years is still a hundred years. I think the chaotic deities would be the first to make their moves after the shapers left. The lawful ones would be late coming, but they would come in hard.

But yeah, now that I think about it, we're essentially looking at the Silver Flame x8... I'm slightly terrified. This will get dodgy.

LG - Given the black and white nature of morality in DnD, this deity could be a very good place for fascism. You better be good, or you're against this god. Not a lot of understanding, just the iron rule of "Good." It is the incarnation of always being "right." Can be helpful to the mindless masses that follow it, but also unreasonable and deadly. Makes me think of the way the Christian God is portrayed in this online story. A bit like the Azorius Guild if you play M:tG.

HOLY FREAKIN' CRAP. I've been reading that online story for SIX HOURS and I'm only done with one page! But yes, from what I've read, that story handles it very, very well. I may be basing a good portion of the LG god off that. I would say more, but I REALLY don't want to start an alignment war here.

I think this one would probably be some ultra-honorable warrior. Massive hammers and such.

NG - I can see this as one of the most forgiving and accepting of the deities. Everyone screws up, and should be allowed to make up for it. Kind and healing, it wants to protect but not take away freedoms.

That sounds like a pretty solid outlook for them. But really, more than an outlook, i need character themes. Should they be human? More abstract? Should they be male, female, neuter? What do they look like?

CG - Not sure...perhaps embracing the change and evolution of creatures, ideas, and ideals. A belief that Might makes Right, but should be used for the protection of the weak, instead of their domination. Strength of conviction is more powerful than tradition. Do what is right, regardless of the consequences, even if nations fall or the world burns as a result.

I definitely like this one. I was originally thinking something nature-themed, but I wanted to avoid the use of material-world themes on these deities, to further stress the separation between them and the prime material. So, this works very nicely.

I've got a vague idea that they'd be a shapeshifter of some sort, taking on new traits as appropriate of the situation. But I ALSO think it would be cool to have them as a caster of some sort, because I don't want the chaotic alignment to be nothing but warrior types.

CN - Not a fan of the Far Realms connection, TBH. Seems too likely to have allied with the Shapers. And the Far Realm isn't CN, it is beyond our understanding and comprehension of morality altogether. Change for the sake of change. Hatred of anything static or defined. Delight in randomness and coincidence. Deity of luck and fortune. Whimsical and impossible to predict. The antithesis and destroyer of anything even resembling prophecy.

Which is basically what chaotic neutral stands for. It has nothing to do with morality. On a scale of black and white, it's blue. Completely nonsensical to our minds, the creature nonetheless gets results.

However, perhaps a fey aspect could become involved? Not pixies and such, but more along the lines of the fey from the old days. Completely amoral, a veneer of civility over their debauchery and madness.

CE - Might makes Right, but you wield that power over those weaker, forcing them to do your bidding. Scheming and challenges for power probably make this the most powerful individual god, but a constantly changing and disrupted chain of command make it the most disorganized force. Enforcing your will and view on others is the only way of existence. Any attempt to define it or sacrifice for others is pointless and meaningless.

Also very awesome. Probably the most vicious of the demons would end up on this throne, and would probably give himself some suitably epic title. 'Lord of Blood' or something. Probably something of a brute, but with plenty of muscle to back it up.

NE - Always out for itself. Lying, stealing, cheating, betrayal, sabotage, manipulation, nothing is too far if it improves your lot. The multiverse rightly (in the god's mind), belongs to it, and the others are interlopers and thieves and liars. There are things precious to it, that it protects savagely, but it will make deals and honor its word...when the situations suits it.

This one would probably be some ultra-powerful yulogoth. Endlessly evil and depraved, he'd probably either be a mercenary sort, allying with one of the evil gods or the other to attack the other, depending on who has the better offer. He'd probably be a gish of some sort, because it fits his theme of 'anything to get ahead'.

LE - Asmodeus works, but is kind of boring in that he has been done so many times. I know that he really does seem to be the embodiment of Lawful Evil, so it's hard to come up with anything else. Perhaps a less cut-throat environment, with more of a mob feel to it, a family that makes pretenses about honor. Very "lawyer" like (abusing loopholes and such), stiff and unyielding.

I think the main reason I'm going to asmodeus is because pretty much any LE mobster/lawyer devil Is probably going to end up a whole lot like him, and I'd rather just use the character that everyone's already had etched into their minds than have to make a new impression that's probably going to look much the same. I'm thinking this guy would actually probably be more caster-ish. All about the mind over body, twisting the rules of reality itself to work for him.

LN - How can I say no to a Primus like god here? Modrons forever! Seriously though, a belief in order and formation, that everything has it's proper place. And those outside of that are aberrations that must be purged. The central source for prophecy, and enforcing them to come to pass. The antithesis of luck and random happenstance, it will seek out and destroy that which does not conform to laws. Despises randomness, preferring certainty, though probability is fine, assuming every option is calculable and capable of being predicted with accuracy.

Indeed. But, I'm still somewhat torn between the idea of a single huge robo-god, a giant mechanical brain that controls every aspect of the plane and his servants, or even perhaps a legion of smaller robots sharing a hive-mind.

[MammonAzrael]

True enough, but you can't win a war by having slow reflexes. The gods would perceive time at the same speed as any other race, possibly even faster. So, while yes, they have been at this for a very, very long time, a hundred years is still a hundred years. I think the chaotic deities would be the first to make their moves after the shapers left. The lawful ones would be late coming, but they would come in hard.

But yeah, now that I think about it, we're essentially looking at the Silver Flame x8... I'm slightly terrified. This will get dodgy.

Yeah, that is kinda what I've been thinking. Except that you've also got to add in the various inner gods that will be trying to grow and influence, though those probably won't have as much direct conflict as the outer god religions (and the OG religions will likely ignore the inner gods in favor of the other 7 OGs).

HOLY FREAKIN' CRAP. I've been reading that online story for SIX HOURS and I'm only done with one page! But yes, from what I've read, that story handles it very, very well. I may be basing a good portion of the LG god off that. I would say more, but I REALLY don't want to start an alignment war here.

I think this one would probably be some ultra-honorable warrior. Massive hammers and such.

Hahaha, sorry. I read it a week or so ago and enjoyed it. There are two more "books" in the story, but I've got to go find them first.

Hammers sounds good.

That sounds like a pretty solid outlook for them. But really, more than an outlook, i need character themes. Should they be human? More abstract? Should they be male, female, neuter? What do they look like?

Well...who made the humans? Did one of the deities? All of the deities? They should only look human, IMO, if they are in some way closely linked with humans. I think abstraction is the right path for gods that embody the ultimate moral ideals.

I definitely like this one. I was originally thinking something nature-themed, but I wanted to avoid the use of material-world themes on these deities, to further stress the separation between them and the prime material. So, this works very nicely.

I've got a vague idea that they'd be a shapeshifter of some sort, taking on new traits as appropriate of the situation. But I ALSO think it would be cool to have them as a caster of some sort, because I don't want the chaotic alignment to be nothing but warrior types.

Well...their deities. They should all be casters of some sort. But I could see casting being a main focus of the CG god. Shapeshifting sounds good.

Which is basically what chaotic neutral stands for. It has nothing to do with morality. On a scale of black and white, it's blue. Completely nonsensical to our minds, the creature nonetheless gets results.

However, perhaps a fey aspect could become involved? Not pixies and such, but more along the lines of the fey from the old days. Completely amoral, a veneer of civility over their debauchery and madness.

If it were completely nonsensical to our minds then it would be impossible for a human to have a chaotic neutral alignment. But this is not the place for an alignment debate. I like the fey angle, though I hesitate to call them mad. Just because their motives are different from human ones doesn't make them mad.

Also very awesome. Probably the most vicious of the demons would end up on this throne, and would probably give himself some suitably epic title. 'Lord of Blood' or something. Probably something of a brute, but with plenty of muscle to back it up.

Why? Why not have a literal deity instead of a demon ruler? And if the deity is ever killed by an underling, that demon rises and gains the deific power, becoming more like the deity it killed. In fact, it could be absorbed by the power of the CE deity, so that even when it changed it stayed the same, never truly dying.

This one would probably be some ultra-powerful yulogoth. Endlessly evil and depraved, he'd probably either be a mercenary sort, allying with one of the evil gods or the other to attack the other, depending on who has the better offer. He'd probably be a gish of some sort, because it fits his theme of 'anything to get ahead'.

Again, why tie yourself down to only the creature in the standard cosmology? And why are only the evil alignments getting deities that are just stronger versions of creatures that already inhabit that alignment? Why would he ally with an evil deity to attack the other? Wouldn't it be smarter to ally with other gods to attack any other gods? I could see him being the most removed from the direct conflicts of the wars, offering to sell his services to the highest bidder (you just need to remain the highest bidder). Always taking deals to build his personal power and the influence of his alignment. I like the gish angle.

I think the main reason I'm going to asmodeus is because pretty much any LE mobster/lawyer devil Is probably going to end up a whole lot like him, and I'd rather just use the character that everyone's already had etched into their minds than have to make a new impression that's probably going to look much the same. I'm thinking this guy would actually probably be more caster-ish. All about the mind over body, twisting the rules of reality itself to work for him.

Fair enough. Though then you'll probably have the issue of divorcing his fluff from the "completely awesome unbeatable haxxor" Asmodeus that has become generally accepted.

Indeed. But, I'm still somewhat torn between the idea of a single huge robo-god, a giant mechanical brain that controls every aspect of the plane and his servants, or even perhaps a legion of smaller robots sharing a hive-mind.

It could also be an entity like the queens from the Ender's Game universe. There is only a single Lawful Neutral entity. All of it's servant aren't independent creatures, just a part of the same deity. There would be a central house for the consciousness, but every Lawful Neutral outsider is just a part of that consciousness.

[Admiral Squish]

Yeah, that is kinda what I've been thinking. Except that you've also got to add in the various inner gods that will be trying to grow and influence, though those probably won't have as much direct conflict as the outer god religions (and the OG religions will likely ignore the inner gods in favor of the other 7 OGs).

Yeah, the inner gods aren't nearly so set against one-another. There will be some conflict, sure, but not as much as the outer gods.

Hahaha, sorry. I read it a week or so ago and enjoyed it. There are two more "books" in the story, but I've got to go find them first.

Hammers sounds good.

These things will kill me at this rate...

Yeah, I figured hammers have a good association with law. Powerful weapons, with geometric shapes, but they're slow to bring to bear, and hard to use with finesse. Then there's to association with the gavel, which brings to mind law and order. Overall, it fits the themes of the LG god quite well.

Well...who made the humans? Did one of the deities? All of the deities? They should only look human, IMO, if they are in some way closely linked with humans. I think abstraction is the right path for gods that embody the ultimate moral ideals.

The humans evolved. Until the shapers arrived, the world was untouched. Too remote to be of any use, and the walls around it weren't worth breaking down.

I think abstraction is good and all, but I think they should remain at least somewhat anthropomorphic, purely for the sake of relatability. Telling players to worship a giant glowing blob of energy is not as effective as having them worship a relatively human-shaped deity. I could include some aspects of abstraction.

Well...their deities. They should all be casters of some sort. But I could see casting being a main focus of the CG god. Shapeshifting sounds good.

I mean, yeah, they'll all have access to a whole lot of magic. I just meant the general caster themes. Physically small or weak, but with great power nonetheless.

If it were completely nonsensical to our minds then it would be impossible for a human to have a chaotic neutral alignment. But this is not the place for an alignment debate. I like the fey angle, though I hesitate to call them mad. Just because their motives are different from human ones doesn't make them mad.

Well, they can be pretty mad, depending on your sources. My brother's been playing a lot of Changeling: The Lost and if THAT isn't madness, I have no idea what is.

Why? Why not have a literal deity instead of a demon ruler? And if the deity is ever killed by an underling, that demon rises and gains the deific power, becoming more like the deity it killed. In fact, it could be absorbed by the power of the CE deity, so that even when it changed it stayed the same, never truly dying.

Well, it would be a sort of king of the hill thing. Whoever keeps the throne becomes the god. The power is a seperate entity that sort of passes itself to each new ruler. For giggles, the power might even pass itself to a new demon even if the first hasn't been killed.

Again, why tie yourself down to only the creature in the standard cosmology? And why are only the evil alignments getting deities that are just stronger versions of creatures that already inhabit that alignment? Why would he ally with an evil deity to attack the other? Wouldn't it be smarter to ally with other gods to attack any other gods? I could see him being the most removed from the direct conflicts of the wars, offering to sell his services to the highest bidder (you just need to remain the highest bidder). Always taking deals to build his personal power and the influence of his alignment. I like the gish angle.

Well, it could work both ways. The most powerful archon becomes the CG god, or the most powerful angel becomes the LG god. It would make sense for a diety to shape it's servants in it's own image, after all.

Fair enough. Though then you'll probably have the issue of divorcing his fluff from the "completely awesome unbeatable haxxor" Asmodeus that has become generally accepted.

True... Well, we DO need a female evil diety too. Trying to keep things balanced, after all, and it's not a good message to have all the evil gods be dudes. So, I suppose we will be creating a new diety for LE.

It could also be an entity like the queens from the Ender's Game universe. There is only a single Lawful Neutral entity. All of it's servant aren't independent creatures, just a part of the same deity. There would be a central house for the consciousness, but every Lawful Neutral outsider is just a part of that consciousness.

I like this idea. Let's roll with it! Hivemind FTW!
Now, onto other matters, how should the diety appear? A massive bronze cube with lights blinking on and off? A silver and gold colossus?

[MammonAzrael]

Yeah, the inner gods aren't nearly so set against one-another. There will be some conflict, sure, but not as much as the outer gods.

I wasn't talking about the gods themselves, so much as their religions. While I don't expect the outer god's churches to go out of their way to demolish the inner god's churches, I see no reason why they would hesitate to trample whatever got in their path. After all, they quite literally have the divine mandate to do so.

These things will kill me at this rate...

Yeah, I figured hammers have a good association with law. Powerful weapons, with geometric shapes, but they're slow to bring to bear, and hard to use with finesse. Then there's to association with the gavel, which brings to mind law and order. Overall, it fits the themes of the LG god quite well.

That was my thinking as well. It is also the weapon that most closely resembles a tool used for creation, which I think rings true for a lawful good deity.

The humans evolved. Until the shapers arrived, the world was untouched. Too remote to be of any use, and the walls around it weren't worth breaking down.

I think abstraction is good and all, but I think they should remain at least somewhat anthropomorphic, purely for the sake of relatability. Telling players to worship a giant glowing blob of energy is not as effective as having them worship a relatively human-shaped deity. I could include some aspects of abstraction.

Well, if the humans evolved on their own, without interference, then I don't think the gods should appear human. Humanoid, however, would be fine.

Or, you could do a perception thing. Like how the Oracle kobold in OotS is remembered by different creatures as a member of their own race, a deity could always appear to be a member of your own race.

Well, it would be a sort of king of the hill thing. Whoever keeps the throne becomes the god. The power is a seperate entity that sort of passes itself to each new ruler. For giggles, the power might even pass itself to a new demon even if the first hasn't been killed.

I could see the divine power having it's own conciseness, migrating from powerful demon to powerful...whatever, on a whim, as whatever best fits it's overall plans and goals (or what just seems fun at the time). Those it migrates to become a sort of amalgam, combining the personalities and tendencies of the original creature and the divine presence. That would really keep it chaotic, as it's stat block and abilities would change every time it gained a new host.

Well, it could work both ways. The most powerful archon becomes the CG god, or the most powerful angel becomes the LG god. It would make sense for a diety to shape it's servants in it's own image, after all.

True...something to think about. I think the lawful deities would be most likely to craft servants in their own image. That does raise the question...do you want to treat angels like they're treated in 4E, where they serve all divine beings equally?

True... Well, we DO need a female evil diety too. Trying to keep things balanced, after all, and it's not a good message to have all the evil gods be dudes. So, I suppose we will be creating a new diety for LE.

Ooh, I like that. Just be sure that the NE god is male...you don't want to accidentally portray all females as evil!

I like this idea. Let's roll with it! Hivemind FTW!
Now, onto other matters, how should the diety appear? A massive bronze cube with lights blinking on and off? A silver and gold colossus?

[/quote]

Sweet! Maybe something like the Replicators from Stargate SG-1? Super-advanced Legos that can combine to make anything, all with a sense of perfect order?

[Admiral Squish]

I wasn't talking about the gods themselves, so much as their religions. While I don't expect the outer god's churches to go out of their way to demolish the inner god's churches, I see no reason why they would hesitate to trample whatever got in their path. After all, they quite literally have the divine mandate to do so.

That is definitely true. I can definitely see a LOT of paladins/clerics of the outer gods being totally overzealous.

That was my thinking as well. It is also the weapon that most closely resembles a tool used for creation, which I think rings true for a lawful good deity.

That's true, too. Hammer is officially included.

Well, if the humans evolved on their own, without interference, then I don't think the gods should appear human. Humanoid, however, would be fine.

Or, you could do a perception thing. Like how the Oracle kobold in OotS is remembered by different creatures as a member of their own race, a deity could always appear to be a member of your own race.

I ended up making them humanoid. I think it contributes the best to relations, and in general makes them easier to love/hate. A humanoid being, you know what you're looking at. But no matter how descriptive you get about otherworldly horrors, they're still alien to the player's mindset. You have no existing images to work with.

I could see the divine power having it's own conciseness, migrating from powerful demon to powerful...whatever, on a whim, as whatever best fits it's overall plans and goals (or what just seems fun at the time). Those it migrates to become a sort of amalgam, combining the personalities and tendencies of the original creature and the divine presence. That would really keep it chaotic, as it's stat block and abilities would change every time it gained a new host.

I was quite rpoud of that. I'm thinking a black crown that constantly hovers over the chosen demon and bathes them in red, hellish light.

True...something to think about. I think the lawful deities would be most likely to craft servants in their own image. That does raise the question...do you want to treat angels like they're treated in 4E, where they serve all divine beings equally?

No, I'm thinking the angels would pretty much have to be loyal to the LG god.

Ooh, I like that. Just be sure that the NE god is male...you don't want to accidentally portray all females as evil!

Well, there ARE technically more Evil gods than male, but the CE god could be a lady next week for all we know.

Sweet! Maybe something like the Replicators from Stargate SG-1? Super-advanced Legos that can combine to make anything, all with a sense of perfect order?

Nah, I think shape-changing is more chaotic than anything.

Anyways: Rough draft descriptions of the eight outer gods. I'm still not sure how I should design the CN god.

Spoiler

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LG - Huge male angel. Silver gauntlets and pants, but chest and arms are bare, exposing muscled physique. Kis is flawless and glows from within with pure, white light. He has no hair, and no eye color, just pools of white radience in his eyes socket. When he opens his mouth, similar light pours forth. On his back, there are two huge, white wings that similarly pour forth his radiance. In his hands, he wields a colossal hammer with an angular, finely-engraved head.

NG - A woman wearing a white hooded gown. The robe is pulled down over her face until just her lips and nose are exposed, and the neckline dips to her chest. The gown hugs her figure as it runs down to the floor. The hood is emblazoned with a simple golden symbol over her forehead that looks to be halfway between a sun and eye. She is depicted a standing with her arms wide, ready to embrace those who come to her.

CG - A beautiful woman clad in light, silvery armor that shifts and warps around her, changing styles and patterns constantly. In each hand, she carries a curved blade that shifts subtly with each strike, and her long hair flows behind her. In long, rippling waves, her hair shifts colors all through the rainbow and beyond, never stopping it’s prismatic shifting.

CN -

CE - A hulking male figure, clad from the neck down in black armor, marred by use and stained with blood. Long spiked knuckle-guards and clawed fingertips constantly drip with blood, his arms seemingly diipped in the stuff to his elbows. His features are rough and scarred, with crimson skin and long curving horns that arc back over his close-cropped hair. He constantly wears and a sadistic grin on his face. Hovering just above his head, there is a blackened crown, rimmed with blood-red spikes that sheds a sickly reddish light over him.

NE - A handsome male, clad in light, flexible armor of black steel, he grins like he knows something you don’t. In one hand he carries a blackened rapier, the other wreathed in purple flames. His long black hair blows in the wind, and red eyes glint with malicious intent.

LE - A seductive female with red shin and a pair of shirt horns emerging from her forehead. Her long black hair is tied tightly behind her head in a bun, and golden, slitted eyes glint ominously. She carries a blackened staff, the tip decorated with a geometric head, a glowing purple orb set into it. Huge, black, leathery wings emerge from her back, but fold around her shoulders into an ebony cloak. Beneath it, she wears a black corset, a choker with a snarling demon’s face set right over her throat, and black, armored gauntlets and boots.

LN - A towering colossus of silvery metal, clad in bronze armor. It wields a huge scepter ending in a gyroscopic globe of gears, all constantly turning within others. In the other hand, it carries a huge bronze shield. It’s face is perfectly smooth, devoid of all features. Every inch of the construct’s skin, armor, shield and scepter is finely etched with minute runes, pictographs, letters and numbers. It is said that the god’s skin bears the entire history of the universe, past present and future, etched into it, but those who try too hard to read it go mad.

I also had the idea that the NG and NE gods are both kinda-sorta neutral. NE is a mercenary, and sells his blade to the highest bidder, whoever that happens to be at the time. NG is kinda the red cross. Nobody messes with her, and she takes care of everybody.

[Sydonai]

If you go that route then you should make CN and LN that way as well.

LN expects everyone to obey its laws, good or evil, lawful or chaotic. It treats everyone and everything as nothing more than extensions of itself, and if they betray it.....well, what would you do to a part of you that became cancerous.

CN should never be loyal to anyone, but shouldn't purposely betray anyone either. It has it's own rules that may or may not change depending on it relative sanity. (Just becuase something is sane by it's own definition does not mean that it is sane by the human definition, this counts for other races as well, when an elf gets to be five-hundred years old it becomes a little hard to show empathy for someone who hasn't seen the end of their second decade yet.)

NG should have something similar to the Hippocratic Oath, and expects her followers to make the Oath as well.

NE should remain loyal to whoever he is helping, right up until he gets a better offer. Maybe he demands that his clerics make routine sacrifices or offerings in his name to continue supporting them, .... and the NG expects "donations" from her clerics, but doesn't necessarily require them.

[Admiral Squish]

If you go that route then you should make CN and LN that way as well.

LN expects everyone to obey its laws, good or evil, lawful or chaotic. It treats everyone and everything as nothing more than extensions of itself, and if they betray it.....well, what would you do to a part of you that became cancerous.

CN should never be loyal to anyone, but shouldn't purposely betray anyone either. It has it's own rules that may or may not change depending on it relative sanity. (Just becuase something is sane by it's own definition does not mean that it is sane by the human definition, this counts for other races as well, when an elf gets to be five-hundred years old it becomes a little hard to show empathy for someone who hasn't seen the end of their second decade yet.)

NG should have something similar to the Hippocratic Oath, and expects her followers to make the Oath as well.

NE should remain loyal to whoever he is helping, right up until he gets a better offer. Maybe he demands that his clerics make routine sacrifices or offerings in his name to continue supporting them, .... and the NG expects "donations" from her clerics, but doesn't necessarily require them.

Well, yeah, that's how it works with everyone though. Most deities will cooperate with deities within one step, and begrudgingly tolerate/respect dieties within two steps. Three steps, and they are NOT friendly. Four steps is mortal enemies. So, LG would cooperate with NG and LN, tolerate CG and LE, but would fight with NE and CN, and is the absolute foe of CE.

However, the main difference is that NG and NE don't really follow that rule. NG is purely defensive and supportive. Her minions will heal anyone who's wounded. But then, NE and his minions will fight for anyone, against anyone, as long as they can make it worth his time.

I DO like the idea of NG having a hippocratic oath, and NE demanding tribute from his servants.

[Admiral Squish]

Work on the details of the gods has ground to a halt. It will apparently remain there I can figure out some decent names for them. I'm terrible with names, so anyone with suggestions for them would be greatly appreciated.

[MammonAzrael]

Why is work halting until you come up with names? I'm not that great at naming myself, but I feel like, as embodiments of their various alignments, they should have names that reflect that, and don't reference any mundane objects (though those could be in titles).

Lawful deities should probably have names that aren't terribly long, and follow a logical pattern or have clean lines.

The LN one shouldn't have a name, so much as a designation for each of it's part. Something like Alpha/Beta or Prime works, or you could invent your own system for cataloging.

I could see CN calling itself whatever it wanted, changing it's name (including it's true name) whenever the fancy struck it.

CE should have the name of whoever is currently in charge, with some sort or honorific.

[Admiral Squish]

Why is work halting until you come up with names? I'm not that great at naming myself, but I feel like, as embodiments of their various alignments, they should have names that reflect that, and don't reference any mundane objects (though those could be in titles).

Lawful deities should probably have names that aren't terribly long, and follow a logical pattern or have clean lines.

The LN one shouldn't have a name, so much as a designation for each of it's part. Something like Alpha/Beta or Prime works, or you could invent your own system for cataloging.

I could see CN calling itself whatever it wanted, changing it's name (including it's true name) whenever the fancy struck it.

CE should have the name of whoever is currently in charge, with some sort or honorific.

I dunno why the work has halted, honestly. I have a bad habit of becoming slightly obsessive over these things, and now the lack of a name is just bothering me. It feels weird to try to write in the details with '___'.

I agree with your point about the names having nothing to do with the going-ons below. I'm trying to avoid that.

As for the rest of them, those are all good points, and seem pretty accurate.

Hmm... For the LN god, I'm thinking we should steal a line from the inevitables. Primarut, Deirut, or the like. He's have an honor guard of Varakhut.

I think the CE god would probably be renamed upon his acquisition of the fell crown. Like an evil version of the pope. Deimos Tyrannus the sixth, or some such. Though, I doubt they would actually reuse old names.

Good talk! That helped! At least a bit.

[Admiral Squish]

...This is annoying as hell. I was originally going to have Angels be the servants of LG, the Guardinals be servants of NG, and the Archons be the servants of CG. But apparently I got all the alignment subtypes mixed up, so I have to rearrange my plans.

On a related point, eladrin are significantly less cool than archons. This is annoying.