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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Rogue


    "My honor can be measured in coins; my only code, the contract."
    - Verril Shadowsister, Necropolitan Rogue

    Class Skills
    The Rogue's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Skills Points at Each Level: 8 + int

    Alignment: Any nonlawful.

    Hit Dice: d6

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st| +0 | +0 | +2 | +0 |Ambush, Eviscerate, Sinister Strike, Stealth

    2nd| +1 | +0 | +3 | +0 |Backstab, Evasion, Poison Use, Recuperate, Sap

    3rd| +2 | +1 | +3 | +1 |Cheap Shot, Kick, Sprint

    4th| +3 | +1 | +4 | +1 |Expose Armor, Gouge, Rogue's Feint

    5th| +3 | +1 | +4 | +1 |Safe Fall, Slice and Dice

    6th| +4 | +2 | +5 | +2 |Blind, Kidney Shot

    7th| +5 | +2 | +5 | +2 |Garrote, Vanish

    8th| +6/+1 | +2| +6 | +2 |Dismantle

    9th| +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +3 |Improved Evasion

    10th| +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +3 | Shiv

    11th| +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +3 |Rupture

    12th| +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +4 | Envenom

    13th| +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +4 |Cloak of Shadows

    14th| +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +4 |Deadly Throw

    15th| +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +5 |Tricks of the Trade

    16th| +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +5 |Mastery

    17th| +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +5 |Fan of Knives

    18th| +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +6 |Redirect

    19th| +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +6 |Smoke Bomb

    20th| +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +6 |Combat Readiness[/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons and with all light martial weapons and the rapier. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but no shields.

    Specialization: At 1st level, a Rogue chooses a path in which to specialize. Each path unlocks different powerful abilities over the course of the Rogue's career, as shown on the individual table for each path. The choice of a path is permanent, representing the Rogue's dedication to a specific style of combat.

    Assassination Specialization:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Immediately upon choosing to pursue the Assassination path, the Rogue unlocks the following abilities:

    Mutilate (Ex): As an attack action, the Rogue may make an attack with her main and offhand weapons at the same time, dealing 50% bonus damage with each attack. Roll each attack separately, using the appropriate attack bonus. If the target of these attacks has been poisoned by the Rogue and has yet to take the secondary damage from the poison, these attacks deal an additional 20% damage.

    Using Mutilate requires a dagger or similar weapon to be wielded in each hand. If either of the attacks hits, the Rogue gains two combo points against that target.

    Using Mutilate consumes 60 energy.

    Improved Poisons: Whenever the Rogue delivers an attack with a a weapon coated with injury or contact poison, she may spend a swift action to increase the DC of the poison by an amount equal to her Dexterity modifier plus one-half her Rogue level.

    Assassin's Resolve: While wielding a dagger or similar weapon in each hand, the Rogue gains an additional 20 maximum Energy and increases the base damage of her weapons by two steps.

    In addition, the Rogue receives further abilities at the following levels, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Level | Ability
    2 | Lethality
    3 | Coup de Gras
    4 | Deadly Momentum
    5| Ruthlessness
    6 | Quickening
    7 | Puncturing Wounds
    8 | Blackjack
    9 | Cold Blood
    10 | Deadly Brew
    11 | Vile Poisons
    12 | Seal Fate
    13 | Deadened Nerves
    14 | Overkill
    15 | Improved Expose Armor
    16 | Murderous Intent
    17 | Venomous Wounds
    18 | Cut to the Chase
    19 | Vendetta[/table]

    Lethality: Whenever the Rogue successfully confirms a critical hit with her Backstab, Mutilate, or Sinister Strike abilities, the total damage dealt is increased by 30%.

    Coup de Gras: Increases the total damage dealt by the Rogue's Envenom and Eviscerate abilities by 20%.

    Deadly Momentum: Whenever an enemy that the Rogue has personally injured at some point in the encounter dies, the critical threat range of her next melee attack performed within two rounds increases by 8, and her Recuperate and Slice and Dice effects refresh to their original duration. The critical threat range increase from this ability does not stack with any other critical threat range increases, except for Puncturing Wounds.

    Ruthlessness: Whenever the Rogue uses a damaging class ability that consumes combo points, he adds one combo point to his target after consuming the existing combo points.

    Quickening: All healing effects used on the Rogue are increased by 20%. In addition, she gains a +15 foot enhancement bonus to her base land speed.

    Puncturing Wounds: The critical threat range of the Rogue's Backstab ability increases by 6, and the critical threat range of her Mutilate ability increases by 3. These critical range increases do not stack with any other form of critical threat range increases, aside from Deadly Momentum.

    Blackjack: After the Rogue's Sap effect is broken or wears off, some effects linger, reducing physical damage dealt by the sapped creature by 75% for one round.

    Cold Blood (Ex): As a swift action, the Rogue may instantly gain 25 energy and make her next successful attack in the round automatically threaten a critical.

    Cold Blood may be used once per encounter.

    Deadly Brew: Whenever an enemy fails a save against an application of the Rogue's poison, it is Immobilized for one round in addition to the normal effects of the poison.

    Vile Poisons: All variable numeric effects of the Rogue's poisons are increased by 20%. In addition, each of the attacks from the Rogue's Fan of Knives ability will also apply any poison on her main hand weapon.

    Seal Fate: Whenever the Rogue confirms a critical threat against a foe with an ability that generates one or more combo points, she generates an additional combo point on that target.

    Savage Combat: While a given foe has yet to make a secondary save against a dose of the Rogue's poison, all physical damage the Rogue deals to that target is increased by 20%.

    Overkill: While under the effects of her Stealth ability, and for three rounds after the effect fades, the Rogue gains an additional 33% Energy regeneration.

    Improved Expose Armor: The Rogue no longer consumes combo points when using her Expose Armor ability.

    Murderous Intent: Whenever the Rogue hits a foe below 33% health with her Backstab ability, she instantly gains 30 Energy.

    Venomous Wounds: Whenever the Rogue's Garrote or Rupture abilities deal periodic damage to an enemy that has yet to make a secondary save against against a dose of the Rogue's poison, that periodic damage deals an additional 1 damage per class level.

    Cut to the Chase: Whenever the Rogue uses Envenom or Eviscerate, her active Slice and Dice effect's duration is refreshed to five rounds.

    Vendetta (Su):As a swift action, the Rogue may mark an enemy within 30 feet for death, increasing all damage she deals to that target by 20% and granting her unerring vision of that foe. So long as the foe is on the same or a coexistent plane, all forms of stealth used by the target of her Vendetta are completely ineffective against the Rogue; she automatically pierces invisibility effects, automatically passes spot checks made to spot the target, instantly knows which target of a series of mirror images is the real one, and so forth. The Rogue's vendetta lasts for five rounds, or until the target dies.

    Vendetta may be used once per encounter.


    Combat Specialization:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Immediately upon choosing to pursue the Combat path, the Rogue unlocks the following abilities:

    Blade Flurry (Ex): As a swift action, the Rogue may adopt an energetic fighting style, full of sweeping slashes and double strikes. While under the effect of this ability, the Rogue's Energy regeneration rate is halved, but each of her attacks is also made against another foe within her reach. Do not reroll attack or damage; simply apply the same rolls made against the initial target to the second target as well, with no modification. Even if the initial attack results in a critical hit, the second target does not take critical damage.

    The secondary target of Blade Flurry can take damage from special Rogue attacks, but does not receive combo points of its own.

    The Rogue may slip out of the Blade Flurry fighting style as a swift action, but may not enter it again for two rounds after doing so.

    Vitality: Unlike most Rogues, a Rogue specializing in the Combat path regenerates Energy equal to 20 + Dexterity modifier at the start of each of her turns. In addition, the normal damage dealt by each of the Rogue's attacks is increased by 25%. For the purpose of this ability, "normal damage" is defined as the weapon's base damage, plus the Rogue's ability modifier that determines bonus damage, plus any enhancement bonus to damage. Damage from feats, damaging weapon enchantments, and similar effects are not increased by this ability.

    Ambidexterity: The Rogue may substitute her Dexterity modifier in place of Strength for attack and damage rolls with all weapons a Rogue is naturally proficient with. In addition, all penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are decreased by 1.

    In addition, the Rogue receives further abilities at the following levels, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Level | Ability
    2 | Improved Sinister Strike
    3 | Improved Recuperate
    4 | Aggression
    5| Improved Sprint
    6 | Deadened Nerves
    7 | Improved Slice and Dice
    8 | Revealing Strike
    9 | Reinforced Armor
    10 | Improved Gouge
    11 | Lightning Reflexes
    12 | Combat Potency
    13 | Blade Twisting
    14 | Adrenaline Rush
    15 | Throwing Specialization
    16 | Improved Kick
    17 | Restless Blades
    18 | Bandit's Guile
    19 | Killing Spree[/table]

    Improved Sinister Strike: Increases the total damage dealt by the Rogue's Sinister Strike ability by 30%, and reduces its energy cost by 10.

    Improved Recuperate: Increases the total percentage of health restored by the Rogue's Recuperate ability by 5%, and reduces all damage taken by 10% while Recuperate is active.

    Aggression: Increases the total damage dealt by the Rogue's Backstab, Eviscerate, and Sinister Strike abilities by 20%.

    Improved Sprint: The Rogue may ignore all movement-impairing effects while her Sprint ability is active, but not effects that would totally incapacitate her. E.g.: the Rogue may move normally through a solid fog spell, but is affected normally by a flesh to stone spell.

    Deadened Nerves: The Rogue takes 10% less damage from all sources.

    Improved Slice and Dice: The duration of the Rogue's Slice and Dice ability is doubled.

    Revealing Strike (Ex): As an attack action, the Rogue may make a single melee attack against a foe within range, increasing the base damage of her weapon by one step. If the attack hits, the next damaging Rogue ability that consumes combo points used against the struck foe within 3 rounds deals an additional 40% damage.

    Successfully hitting with Revealing Strike awards 1 combo point.

    Using Revealing Strike consumes 40 Energy.

    Reinforced Armor: While wearing light armor, the Rogue increases the Armor bonus granted by her armor by 2, then increases her total Armor bonus to AC by 50%.

    Improved Gouge: The Rogue's Gouge ability stuns for an additional round, and its Energy cost is reduced by 30.

    Lightning Reflexes: The Rogue gains a Dodge bonus to AC equal to 1/10th her total AC, calculated after all other bonuses to AC. Never count this dodge bonus when calculating the total effect of this ability.

    Combat Potency: Whenever the Rogue hits with an offhand attack or an attack granted by her Main Gauche ability, she has a 20% chance to instantly generate 15 Energy.

    Blade Twisting: Whenever the Rogue hits with an attack, she has a 20% chance to force the target to make a DC (10+1/2 Rogue level+Dex modifier) Fortitude save or be dazed for one round.

    Adrenaline Rush (Ex): As a swift action, the Rogue may double her Energy regeneration rate for two rounds. While this ability is active, the Rogue gains an additional attack per round at her highest attack bonus, which stacks with the additional attack granted by haste or similar abilities.

    Adrenaline Rush may be used every 30 rounds.

    Throwing Specialization: Doubles the range increment of thrown weapons wielded by the Rogue, and halves the penalty for each increment thrown. In addition, whenever the Rogue hits with her Deadly Throw ability, her target must succeed on a Fortitude save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or lose all mental focus for one round. A creature that fails its save against this ability cannot cast spells, initiate maneuvers, activate spell-like abilities, or perform any action that requires concentration for the duration of the effect.

    Improved Kick: In addition to its normal effects, the Rogue's Kick ability also forces her target to make a Fortitude save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or lose all mental focus for one round. A creature that fails its save against this ability cannot cast spells, initiate maneuvers, activate spell-like abilities, or perform any action that requires concentration for the duration of the effect.

    Restless Blades: Whenever the Rogue uses a damaging class ability that consumes combo points, she reduces the remaining recharge of her Adrenaline Rush, Killing Spree, Redirect, and Sprint abilities by a number of rounds based on the combo points consumed, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Combo Points | Rounds
    1-2 | 1
    3-4 | 2
    5 | 3[/table]

    Bandit's Guile: Whenever the Rogue hits with her Revealing Strike or Sinister Strike abilities, she increases all damage dealt to that target by 10%. This ability stacks up to three times. In any round where the Rogue does not damage her opponent, the effectiveness of Bandit's Guile decreases by one step.

    Killing Spree (Su): As a full-round action, the Rogue may vanish into her own shadow, reappearing next to an enemy within 100 feet and making an attack with her main and offhand weapons at her full base attack bonus, then vanishing and striking another enemy in the same fashion. The Rogue makes a total of five assaults in this manner, and may strike the same foe multiple times, but not if there is another foe within range that has not yet been attacked with this ability.

    Upon conclusion of all of the attacks, the Rogue steps back into her own shadow and reappears in her original location.

    This is a (Shadow), (Teleportation) effect.

    Killing Spree may be used every 20 rounds.


    Subtlety Specialization:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Immediately upon choosing to pursue the Subtlety path, the Rogue unlocks the following abilities:

    Shadowstep (Su): As a swift action, the Rogue may teleport into a square adjacent to an enemy within 25 feet. If she is under the effect of her Stealth ability, she may make one attack against her target before it is allowed a spot check to notice her.

    After using Shadowstep, the next Ambush or Garrote ability used by the Rogue before the end of the next round will deal an additional 30% damage.

    Shadowstep may be used every 4 rounds.

    Master of Subtlety: While under the effect of her Stealth ability, and for one round after breaking stealth, the Rogue deals 10% additional damage.

    Sinister Calling: The Rogue gains a +2 class bonus to Dexterity, and increases the bonus damage portion of her Backstab and Hemmorage ability by 50%.

    In addition, the Rogue receives further abilities at the following levels, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Level | Ability
    2 | Nightstalker
    3 | Improved Ambush
    4 | Relentless Strikes
    5| Initiative
    6 | Opportunity
    7 | Waylay
    8 | Elusiveness
    9 | Hemorrhage
    10 | Find Weakness
    11 | Premeditation
    12 | Enveloping Shadows
    13 | Honor Among Thieves
    14 | Preparation
    15 | Cheat Death
    16 | Sanguinary Vein
    17 | Serrated Blades
    18 | Slaughter from the Shadows
    19 | Shadow Dance[/table]

    Nightstalker: The Rogue no longer moves slower while under the effect of her Stealth ability, the range at which creatures are automatically granted a spot check to notice her is decreased to 5 feet, and the number of rounds the Rogue must wait before Stealth becomes available for use again is reduced by 1.

    Improved Ambush: The critical threat range of the Rogue's Ambush ability increases by 12, and further increases its damage by 15%. The critical threat range increase from this ability does not stack with any other critical threat range increases.

    Relentless Strikes: Whenever the Rogue uses a damaging class ability that consumes combo points, she has a 20% chance per combo point consumed to instantly generate 25 Energy.

    Initiative: Whenever the Rogue hits with her Ambush, Cheap Shot, or Garrote abilities, she gains an additional combo point.

    Opportunity: Increases the total damage dealt by the Rogue's Ambush, Backstab, and Garrote abilities by 30%.

    Waylay: Whenever the Rogue hits with her Ambush or Backstab abilities, she unbalances her target, decreasing physical damage dealt by 20% and reducing its movement speed by half for one round.

    Elusiveness: The Rogue's Blind and Vanish abilities gain a recharge of one minute, rather than once per encounter, and the recharge time of her Cloak of Shadows ability is reduced by 5 rounds.

    Hemmorhage (Ex): As an attack action, the Rogue may make a melee attack that opens veins on her target, dealing normal damage and causing the target to take 50% increased damage from the Rogue's Garrote and Rupture abilities' periodic damage.

    Successfully hitting with Hemmorhage awards one combo point.

    Using Hemorrhage consumes 35 Energy.

    Find Weakness: Whenever the Rogue hits with her Ambush, Cheap Shot, or Garrote abilities, she may ignore the creature's armor or natural armor bonus until the end of her next turn. If the creature has both an amor and natural armor bonus, the Rogue chooses which one to bypass. The Rogue can never bypass both bonuses to AC on a given creature, and choosing a new bonus to bypass cancels the first effect and refreshes the duration of this ability.

    Premeditation (Ex): While under the effect of her Stealth ability, the Rogue may add two combo points to an enemy within 30 feet as a free action. These combo points must be used within four rounds or they disappear.

    Premeditation may be used every four rounds.

    Enveloping Shadows: The Rogue takes 30% less damage from all area of effect attacks, and her Rogue's Feint ability lasts for an additional round.

    Honor Among Thieves: All allies within 60 feet of the Rogue increase their critical threat range with all attacks by 1, stacking with all other means of increasing critical threat range (except for the Rogue's Improved Ambush ability). Whenever an ally within the range of this ability confirms a critical threat, the Rogue gains a combo point on her current target (defined as the creature on whom she currently has at least one combo point; if none, the Rogue chooses a creature to place a combo point). The Rogue may not gain a bonus combo point more than once per round.

    Preparation (Ex): As a free action, the Rogue may cause her Shadowstep, Sprint, and Vanish abilities to immediately become available for use.

    Preparation may be used twice per day, but no more than once per encounter.

    Cheat Death: Once per day, when the Rogue would take damage that would reduce her to 0 hitpoints or lower, she instead takes no damage from that source, and reduces all damage taken by 90% until the start of her next turn.

    Sanguinary Vein: The Rogue deals an additional 10% damage to targets suffering from the periodic damage of Garrote or Rupture. The periodic damage of these abilities no longer breaks the stun from the Rogue's Gouge ability.

    Serrated Blades: The Rogue's Eviscerate ability has a 20% chance per combo point consumed to refresh the duration of her active Rupture's periodic damage on her target.

    Slaughter from the Shadows: Reduces the Energy cost of the Rogue's Ambush and Backstab abilities by 20, and the Energy cost of her Hemorrhage and Fan of Knives abilities by 10.

    Shadow Dance (Ex):As a swift action, the Rogue may perform a series of elaborate feints, completely distracting her opponents. Until the end of the round, the Rogue may use her Ambush, Cheap Shot, Garrote, Premeditation, and Sap abilities without the need to be under the effect of her Stealth ability or flanking an opponent.

    Shadow Dance may be used once per minute.


    Energy: A Rogue's method of fueling her abilities is a reserve of heightened physical aptitude known simply as Energy. A Rogue's Energy pool consists of 100 points, which are depleted as she uses many of her abilities. At the beginning of each of her turns, a Rogue regains an amount of Energy equal to 15 + her Dexterity modifier.

    Combo Points: Many of a Rogue's abilities award combo points. A creature may have up to five combo points marked against it, at which point additional combo points awarded against that target are wasted. Combo points are awarded against the target of ability that grants them. A Rogue may only mark a single foe with combo points at a time; if she strikes an enemy with an ability that awards combo point(s) while a different foe has combo points marked against it, she may choose to forgo the granted combo points, or else lose all combo points on the previous target to begin gaining them on her current target.

    Several of the Rogue's abilities consume combo points to inflict increasingly powerful effects. Unless otherwise noted, such abilities always consume all combo points on the Rogue's target; she cannot choose to consume a lesser number of combo points to inflict a weaker effect.

    Combo points persist until the end of the encounter, or until consumed.

    Trapfinding: Rogues can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Rogues can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A rogue who beats a trapís DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Two-Weapon Fighting: A Rogue gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites for the feat.

    Ambush (Ex): While under the effect of her Stealth ability, or when attacking a flatfooted opponent, the Rogue may deliver an Ambush as an attack action. Using Ambush increases the base damage of the Rogue's weapon by one step (or by two steps if wielding a dagger) and deals 1d6 bonus damage per two Rogue levels, rounded up. This extra damage is precision damage.

    Successfully hitting with Ambush awards two combo points.

    Using Ambush consumes 60 Energy.

    Eviscerate (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue may deliver a potent finishing strike. If it hits, Eviscerate consumes all combo points on the target and deals bonus damage based on the number of combo points consumed, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Combo Points | Bonus damage
    1 | 1 per 3 Rogue levels
    2 | 1 per 2 Rogue levels
    3 | 1 per Rogue level
    4 | 1d3 per Rogue level
    5 | 1d6 per Rogue level[/table]

    Using Eviscerate consumes 35 Energy.

    Sinister Strike (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue may deliver a keen blow with her weapon. Using Sinister Strike increases the base damage of the Rogue's weapon by one step, and deals an additional point of damage per Rogue level.

    Successfully hitting with Sinister Strike awards one combo point.

    Using Sinister Strike consumes 45 Energy.

    Stealth (Su): As a swift action, a Rogue may become invisible, as the spell, with one exception. If the Rogue approaches within 10 feet of an enemy, she must make a Hide check opposed by the the enemy's Spot check, without the normal bonuses for being invisible. If the enemy's Spot check beats the Rogue's Hide check, she loses all benefits of Stealth with regards to that enemy while within 10 feet of that opponent, including the ability to use certain abilities that require Stealth to be active.

    Even if she moves further than 10 feet from the enemy and back into this range in the same round, only one opposed check for this ability is made for each creature per round.

    If the Rogue takes any damage while Stealth is active, the effect instantly ends.

    While under the effect of Stealth, the Rogue's movement speed is reduced by 1/3, rounded to the nearest 5-foot increment.

    Once the Stealth effect is broken, the Rogue cannot use it again for two rounds.

    Backstab (Ex): While flanking an opponent or striking a flatfooted creature, a Rogue of 2nd level or higher may perform a Backstab as an attack action, dealing double normal damage plus 1 bonus damage per Rogue level.

    Successfully striking with Backstab awards one combo point.

    Using Backstab consumes 60 Energy.

    Evasion (Ex): A Rogue of 2nd level or higher can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Poison Use (Ex): A Rogue of 2nd level or higher never risks poisoning herself when applying poison to a weapon, and may apply a dose of poison to her weapon as a swift, move, or standard action.

    Recuperate (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 2nd level or higher may consume all combo points on a target to begin mending her wounds with unnatural speed. At the beginning of each of of the rounds that this ability is active, the Rogue recovers 5% of his full normal hitpoints (minimum of 1 hitpoint). Recuperate lasts for one round per combo point consumed.

    Sap (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue under the effect of Stealth or striking a flatfooted opponent may attempt to incapacitate her target by delivering a resounding blow with the pommel of her weapon or similar. The Rogue must be within melee range of her target; if the victim fails a Fortitude save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) it is dazed for one minute. Any damage taken during this time breaks the daze effect.

    Sap may be used once per minute.

    Using Sap does not break Stealth.

    Using Sap consumes 35 Energy

    Cheap Shot (Ex): While under the effect of her Stealth ability, or when attacking a flatfooted opponent, a Rogue of 3rd level or higher may deliver a Cheap Shot as an attack action. If the attack hits, it deals normal damage and forces the target to make a Fortitude save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or be stunned until the end of the Rogue's next turn.

    Successfully striking with Cheap Shot awards 2 combo points.

    Using Cheap Shot consumes 40 Energy.

    Kick (Ex): As an immediate action, a Rogue of 3rd level or higher may deliver a swift kick to a foe, dealing no damage but disrupting its current action. To use this ability, the Rogue's target must be within reach of her unarmed strike. The Rogue makes a melee touch attack against her foe; if it hits, the target's current action is halted. If the target was moving, it instantly stops moving, as if it had consumed all movement available to it for the round. If the target was attacking or casting a spell, it must succeed on a Concentration check, DC (15+1/2 class level+Dexterity modifier) or lose that attack or spell to no effect.

    Kick may be used every two rounds.

    Using Kick consumes 15 Energy.

    Sprint (Ex): As a swift action, a Rogue of 3rd level or higher may greatly increase the speed at which she moves for a short time. Until the end of her next turn, the Rogue's base landspeed doubles.

    Sprint may be used once per minute.

    Expose Armor (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 4th level or higher may consume all combo points on her target to expose a flaw in her opponent's defenses, whether it be cutting a strap on a suit of armor, shearing free a particularly thick scale, or knocking a foe off balance. The effectiveness of this ability and the amount of time it takes her opponent to recover is based on the number of combo points consumed, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Combo Points | AC reduction | Duration
    1 | 10% | 1 round
    2 | 20% | 2 rounds
    3 | 30% | 3 rounds
    4 | 40% | 4 rounds
    5 | 50% | 5 rounds[/table]

    Using Expose Armor consumes 25 Energy.

    Gouge (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 4th level or higher may swipe her weapon at a sensitive location on his opponent's body, whether it be a swipe across the face or a stab through the foot. As part of this action, the Rogue makes a melee touch attack; if successful, her target takes damage equal to the base damage of his weapon, and is incapacitated until the end of the Rogue's next turn if it fails a Reflex save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier).

    An incapacitated creature is unable to perform any action, even purely mental ones. Any damage taken breaks this effect and allows the creature to take its turn on the current initiative count, as if it had delayed its action to that point in the initiative order.

    Successfully hitting with Gouge awards one combo point.

    Using Gouge consumes 45 Energy.

    Rogue's Feint (Su): As a swift action, a Rogue of 4th level or higher may ready herself to quickly move out of the way of area attacks. Until the beginning of her next turn, the Rogue takes 50% less damage from area of effect attacks.

    Rogue's Feint may be used every 3 rounds.

    Using Rogue's Feint consumes 20 Energy.

    Safe Fall (Ex): A Rogue of 5th level or higher takes much less damage from falls than others. She treats all falls as if they were half their normal distance and takes appropriately reduced damage.

    Slice and Dice (Ex): As a swift action, a Rogue of 5th level or higher may turn her increasing momentum against one foe into a flurry of strikes against any creature. Using Slice and Dice consumes all combo points on the Rogue's target, and grants her an additional attack per round at her highest attack bonus. This extra attack does not stack with haste or similar effects. The duration of Slice and Dice is based on the number of combo points consumed.

    {table=head]Combo Points | Duration
    1 | End of turn
    2 | 2 rounds
    3 | 3 rounds
    4 | 5 rounds
    5 | 6 rounds[/table]

    Blind (Ex): As a swift action, a Rogue of 6th level or higher may throw a handful of loose debris into the eyes of a nearby foe. The Rogue makes a ranged touch attack against a foe within 15 feet; if she hits, the foe must succeed on a Reflex save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or be blinded for a number of rounds equal to the Rogue's Dexterity modifier.

    Blind may be used once per encounter.

    Using Blind consumes 15 Energy.

    Kidney Shot (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 6th level or higher may strike a sensitive portion of her foe's anatomy, stunning it with pain. As part of this attack, the Rogue makes a melee touch attack against her foe. If she hits, the target must make a Fortitude save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or be stunned for the duration of this ability. The duration of the stun is increased base on the number of combo points consumed, as seen on the table below. Whenever the target takes damage, the number of rounds it is stunned for is reduced by 1.

    {table=head]Combo Points | Duration
    1 | End of turn
    2 | 2 rounds
    3| 3 rounds
    4 | 5 rounds
    5 | 6 rounds[/table]

    Garrote (Ex): While under the effect of her Stealth ability, or when attacking a flatfooted or flanked opponent, a Rogue of 7th level or higher may choke her foe with the bladed edge of her weapon as an attack action. As part of this attack, the Rogue makes a melee touch attack against her foe; if it hits, the target begins bleeding fiercely, taking 1 damage per Rogue level at the start of each of its turns for the next three rounds. In addition, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dexterity modifier) or be rendered mute for the duration of the effect, unable to speak or cast spells with verbal components.

    Successfully hitting with Garrote awards one combo point

    Garrote consumes 45 energy when used.

    Vanish (Su): As an immediate action, a Rogue of 7th level or higher may enter a state identical to the Stealth ability, except that damage taken until the start of the Rogue's next turn does not break the invisibility effect. In all other regards, the Rogue is treated as if she were under the effect of Stealth.

    Vanish may be used once per encounter.

    Dismantle (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 8th level or higher may viciously slash at the wrists (or similar anatomical feature) of a creature, rendering it incapable of using its held equipment for a short duration. As part of this attack, the Rogue makes a melee touch attack against a creature in range. If she hits with the attack, the creature must succeed on a Reflex save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or be unable to use equipment held in its hands for two rounds.

    Dismantle may be used once per minute.

    Using Dismantle consumes 25 Energy.

    Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, the Rogue gains Improved Evasion. This ability works like Evasion, except that while the Rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Shiv (Ex): As a swift action, a Rogue of 10th level or higher may make a single lightning-fast strike, dealing little damage but building up toward a grand finish. As part of this attack, the Rogue makes a melee touch attack with her offhand weapon. If successful, the attack deals base damage only and cannot result in a critical hit.

    Successfully striking with Shiv generates one combo point.

    Using Shiv consumes 20 Energy.

    Rupture (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 11th level or higher may rupture a critical portion of her foe's anatomy, dealing increasing periodic damage over a span of time. As part of this attack, the Rogue makes a single melee attack. If it hits, the target begins bleeding internally, a vital organ ruptured. The amount of damage dealt and the duration of the effect increase based on the number of combo points consumed, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Combo Points | Damage per round | Total Duration
    1 | 1 per two Rogue levels | 1 round
    2 | 1 per two Rogue levels | 2 rounds
    3 | 1 per Rogue level | 3 rounds
    4 | 1 per Rogue level | 4 rounds
    5 | 1d3 per Rogue level | 5 rounds[/table]

    The application of a heal spell or similar magic can stop the internal bleeding from Rupture.

    Using Rupture consumes 25 Energy.

    Envenom (Su): As an attack action, a Rogue of 12th level or higher may activate latent doses of poison in her target's bloodstream, dealing instant damage but negating their secondary effects. As part of this attack, the Rogue makes a single melee attack against a foe within range. This attack consumes doses of poison within the target that have not yet dealt their secondary damage, up to a number of doses equal to the combo points consumed. This attack deals increased damage based on the number of poison applications consumed, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Combo Points/Maximum Poison Doses | Bonus damage
    1 | 1 per Rogue level
    2 | 1d2 per Rogue level
    3 | 1d4 per Rogue level
    4 | 1d6 per Rogue level
    5 | 1d8 per Rogue level[/table]

    Using Envenom consumes 35 Energy.

    Cloak of Shadows (Su): As an immediate action, a Rogue of 13th level or higher may envelop herself in a shroud of roiling shadow. Until the end of the round in which this ability is activated, the Rogue is immune to all hostile spells, including those that would not normally allow for spell resistance. Such spells are absorbed harmlessly by the cloak (if targeted at the Rogue) or held at bay for the duration of this effect (for area of effect spells).

    Cloak of Shadows may be used every 15 rounds.

    Deadly Throw (Ex): As an attack action, a Rogue of 14th level or higher may hurl a thrown weapon with incredible precision, dealing massively increased damage based on the number of combo points consumed, as seen on the table below.

    {table=head]Combo Points | Base Damage Increase | Bonus Damage
    1 | 1 step | none
    2 | 2 steps | 1 per two rogue levels
    3 | 3 steps | 1 per Rogue level
    4 | 4 steps | 1d2 per Rogue level
    5 | 5 steps | 1d3 per Rogue level[/table]

    Using Deadly Throw consumes 35 Energy.

    Tricks of the Trade (Ex:) A Rogue of 15th level or higher is so skilled at the art of combat misdirection that she can make her own attacks seem to originate from her allies. As a swift action, the Rogue may select an ally threatening her current target; until the end of the second round in which this ability is used, each attack the Rogue makes is placed with such perfection that it seems to be made by the marked ally. In addition, the marked ally deals an additional 20% damage with physical attacks for the duration of this effect.

    Tricks of the Trade may be used every 5 rounds.

    Using Tricks of the Trade consumes 15 Energy.

    Mastery: At 16th level, a Rogue gains a potent increase to her abilities. The exact nature of this increase depends on the Rogue's specialization.

    Assassination Specialization - Potent Poisons: All variable numeric effects of the Rogue's poisons are increased by 33%.

    Combat Specialization - Main Gauche: Whenever the Rogue hits with an attack made with her mainhand weapon, she has a 20% chance to launch a second attack at the same attack bonus that does normal damage.

    Subtlety Specialization - Executioner: Whenever the Rogue uses a damaging class ability that consumes combo points, the total damage dealt is increased by 25%.

    Fan of Knives (Su): While holding a throwing weapon in her main hand, a Rogue of 17th level or higher may release a spray of spectral copies of that weapon as an attack action. All foes within 30 feet of the Rogue must succeed on a Reflex save, DC (10+1/2 class level+Dex modifier) or take damage as if the Rogue had thrown her weapon at the creature.

    Using Fan of Knives consumes 35 Energy.

    Redirect (Ex): As a free action, a Rogue of 18th level or higher may instantly refocus her attention, transfering any existing combo points from her current target to another within 60 feet.

    Redirect can be used once per minute.

    Smoke Bomb (Su): As a swift action, a Rogue of 19 level or higher may create a 20 foot radius area of dense, magical fog around herself. While within this fog, the Rogue is completely invisible to all creatures, even those with special senses such as Lifesense, Mindsight, and Tremorsense. The Rogue is not hindered by the fog in any way, able to see, move, and attack as if the fog were not there at all. The fog persists until the start of the Rogue's next turn.

    Smoke Bomb may be used once per encounter.

    Combat Readiness: As a swift action, a 20th level Rogue may enter a state of supreme clarity for up to four rounds. For each attack directed at the Rogue in this time, regardless of whether they hit or miss, she gains a +2 Dodge bonus to AC and takes 10% less damage from all sources. The damage reduction cannot exceed 50%, but there is no limit to how high the Dodge bonuses may go.

    If the Rogue is not attacked within two rounds, this effect ends.

    Combat Readiness may be used once per encounter.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2011-02-22 at 04:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5 base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    A note on "attack action" abilities:
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    Many of the Rogue's abilities take an attack action to use; that is, they may be used as many times during a full attack action as the Rogue has iteratives due to base attack bonus, and they may be used for attacks of opportunity. Such attacks cannot be made as bonus attacks granted by haste or the Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats, for example.


    Immobilized:
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    Introduced in Tome of Magic, the immobilized condition prevents a creature from moving from the space in which it starts its turn. An immobilized creature can attack and cast spells, and it keeps its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Flying creatures that become immobilized when aloft can control their descent so they donít take falling damage, but they are incapable of moving from their current space until the condition ends, descending at a rate of 20 feet per round. If an immobilized flying creature can hover, it can maintain its altitude, but it still canít move from its space until the condition ends.


    A note on percentages:
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    Percentages for the Rogue are additive, rather than multiplicative. This provides both an increase in power and in simplicity. If the percentages slow your game down too much, consider removing them for flat bonuses - but try bringing a calculator first. The Rogue is meant to scale well, and flat bonuses often do not.


    So, since PEACH is so commonly used, let's go with PEAR for this one. Please Examine and Reply, guys.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Somehow, I miss Trapfinding on this Rogue.

    Another thing that I've found common on your Warcraft conversions is that they're *very* combat focused, as far as abilities go;

    While they may be chock-full of abilities, dealing damage, healing, buffing, debuffing/disabling, they do not appear to have the *utility* that many 3.5 spellcasters have.

    Fly, Sending, Divinations, dealing *ability* damage, the *vast* options gained from summoning/calling, etc.

    Finally, as a point of interest - I suppose that these are supposed to be balanced versus fullcasters. Your classes *DO* have incredible longevity and stamina for combat, regardless of what energy system they use - mana is replenished quite quickly, energy automatically regenerates, runes recharge after a few rounds. You have a few 1/encounter abilities, and occassionally, an 1/day ability.

    Spellcasters are mostly stuck with(pretty powerful) 1/day spells. At low levels, I believe your classes are going to completely overshadow most other classes, INCLUDING the full casters - because even a DMM Cleric at level 1 is far weaker than these classes. A Wizard or Sorcerer - barring cheese - is either using Color Spray/Sleep type spells at these levels, hoping for failed saving throws and reduced to plinking away with a crossbow after he's burned through his spells.

    Thus, your classes are likely never reaching Tier 1 because they lack the game-shattering options of high level magic, however, they're still extremely potent, and they're extremely active - even more so than martial adepts, because ToB characters are limited to 1-2 counters/boosts per turn, and 1 strike(unless they have Order forged from Chaos, a strike which can be initiated as move action).

    ------------------------------------

    Finally, I think that these classes are a bit...daunting, because:

    1) They have many, many abilities to keep track of

    and

    2) every Character has the same abilities, if he picks the same specialization. You do not choose between a few abilities that are available to you - you simple know all of them at the required level, somewhat akin to Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Duskblade casting.



    -----------------------------------------------
    Overall, I'd like to see a game where a Party of your converted characters adventures in 3.5 DnD, just to see how these characters with abilities focused almost exclusively on combat overcome non-combat challenges.

    Oh, and playtesting would likely give me insights into the *actual* DPS/Healing/Other power of these classes, because the unfamiliar percentages prevents me from running some numbers(as I'm too lazy to calculate them).

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldgar View Post
    Somehow, I miss Trapfinding on this Rogue.
    Oops. That should be there at 1st level. Fixing...

    Another thing that I've found common on your Warcraft conversions is that they're *very* combat focused, as far as abilities go;

    While they may be chock-full of abilities, dealing damage, healing, buffing, debuffing/disabling, they do not appear to have the *utility* that many 3.5 spellcasters have.
    That's an unfortunate downside of translating a combat-focused game to a slighty-less-but-still-very-combat-focused game. I've tried to include different effects where possible, and social skills of at least some degree on all of them. Unfortunately, spellcasters are still spellcasters, and these classes don't change that. They aren't tier 1, but rather aimed at tier 2.

    Fly, Sending, Divinations, dealing *ability* damage, the *vast* options gained from summoning/calling, etc.
    Flying is assumed to come from an item or UMD, like it does for other martial classes. Divinations give DMs headaches in my experience, and are better placed as purchased spells or plot points. These classes have access to the same ability damage feats and weapon enchantments that any martial character has. The Death Knight and the Shaman have limited versions of summoning spells, which I think are better for the game overall than allowing a completely open-ended spell.

    Finally, as a point of interest - I suppose that these are supposed to be balanced versus fullcasters. Your classes *DO* have incredible longevity and stamina for combat, regardless of what energy system they use - mana is replenished quite quickly, energy automatically regenerates, runes recharge after a few rounds. You have a few 1/encounter abilities, and occassionally, an 1/day ability.
    My only point of contention with this would be that mana actually regenerates quite slowly outside of a few specific abilities. Otherwise, working as intended.

    Spellcasters are mostly stuck with(pretty powerful) 1/day spells. At low levels, I believe your classes are going to completely overshadow most other classes, INCLUDING the full casters - because even a DMM Cleric at level 1 is far weaker than these classes. A Wizard or Sorcerer - barring cheese - is either using Color Spray/Sleep type spells at these levels, hoping for failed saving throws and reduced to plinking away with a crossbow after he's burned through his spells.
    As I've mentioned in other threads, these classes are better compared as a crossroad between ToB and spellcasters. They're slightly stronger than ToB ideally, but still don't possess the world-shattering power of casters.

    Color Spray? Save or Lose.

    Sleep? Save or Lose.

    Sure, you only get two or three of them at level 1, but each one ends an entire encounter if they fail a save. The spells only get more ridiculous (and more plentiful) from there on out.

    Thus, your classes are likely never reaching Tier 1 because they lack the game-shattering options of high level magic,
    It is virtually impossible for a class that isn't a full caster to reach tier 1, and it's a foolish balance point to shoot for anyway. Tier 1 characters are an entire party in one character, able to fill any role if they prepare for it. Tier 2 is the intended point of these classes.

    however, they're still extremely potent, and they're extremely active - even more so than martial adepts, because ToB characters are limited to 1-2 counters/boosts per turn, and 1 strike(unless they have Order forged from Chaos, a strike which can be initiated as move action).
    While these classes don't technically carry that restriction, the heavy cost of their abilities means that they'll either use one (or maybe two with lesser costs) ability per round, or they'll fast run dry on their resources and be forced to attack normally.


    Finally, I think that these classes are a bit...daunting, because:

    1) They have many, many abilities to keep track of
    This argument bothers me a lot. It comes up in every thread, yet as Amnestic said better than I in the Death Knight thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic
    While I do agree that it might be a bit of an arse for a DM to have to look over all the abilities, I also think it's far too cool a class to dismiss out of hand because of it, especially when the core classes have drastically more 'abilities' available to them. Orisons+1st level Cleric spells in PHB number 37 in total, not including domains. That's how much they have available at 1st level!:

    2) every Character has the same abilities, if he picks the same specialization. You do not choose between a few abilities that are available to you - you simple know all of them at the required level, somewhat akin to Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Duskblade casting.
    I'm not sure I see the problem there. As you admit, there are already classes that know everything on their lists, aside from minor deviations (Expanded Knowledge), whose effect on the class is really quite minor, as opposed to Specializations, which completely change the way a class is played over their career.

    Overall, I'd like to see a game where a Party of your converted characters adventures in 3.5 DnD, just to see how these characters with abilities focused almost exclusively on combat overcome non-combat challenges
    Rather like a party without a Wizard or a Cleric would, I imagine. Social skills and creative use of items.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    This argument bothers me a lot. It comes up in every thread, yet as Amnestic said better than I in the Death Knight thread...
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic
    While I do agree that it might be a bit of an arse for a DM to have to look over all the abilities, I also think it's far too cool a class to dismiss out of hand because of it, especially when the core classes have drastically more 'abilities' available to them. Orisons+1st level Cleric spells in PHB number 37 in total, not including domains. That's how much they have available at 1st level!:
    I don't think that's an entirely fair response. Note that I'm not saying your class is too long, but I don't think that's a good way to respond to that critique. See, long spell lists have two things going for them that this class doesn't.

    For one, there's that handy list with the descriptive blurbs, so you can know what the spells do without looking them up. This means you already can trim the list down to spells you're considering, which is far less than 37.

    For two, they're in tidier little bite-size bits. Sort of like how a massive wall of text becomes a lot easier to stomach if it's broken into smaller paragraphs, an otherwise daunting list of abilities becomes more readable when it's more separated. You already know this, or you wouldn't have segregated the specializations in spoilers.

    Your class is three times as long as the monk, and more than twice as long as the Druid, animal companion included. Again, I'm not saying you need to simplify or whatever; I don't play World of Warcraft, but it's clear your goal is a faithful translation, so whatever makes that work for you is fine. I'm just saying, you can't really deny that they're big, and that plenty of people are going to (quite reasonably) find that daunting.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    I'm not denying that the classes are daunting at first glance. Not at all. In fact, I admitted as much in the other threads.

    But, as I also said in other threads, it's really not as complex as it appears. Take a martial adept and call his manuevers class features. Bam, instantly the same amount of "complexity", except for some reason people see it differently if it's a class feature instead of a spell or maneuver. If people see it as complex, fine, maybe it is. But it smacks of hypocrisy to call something too complicated when half the published classes they allow in a game without a second thought are equally - or moreso - complex.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    But, as I also said in other threads, it's really not as complex as it appears. Take a martial adept and call his manuevers class features. Bam, instantly the same amount of "complexity", except for some reason people see it differently if it's a class feature instead of a spell or maneuver.
    Actually, this class strikes me as needlessly complex for a completely separate reason. I have no beef with all of those activated abilities as they are akin to spells/maneuvers (as you have said) and I don't mind the energy mechanic or keeping track of combo points and I even don't mind the percentages, rare though they are in most of DND.
    What kills this class for me as far as complication, however, are the passive abilities. A 20th level Assassination specialist has something like 21 passive abilities, 3/4th of which affect other activated abilities that you possess. Having to memorize an entire collection of abilities to learn how another set of abilities works or being forced to check through my entire specialization each time I use an attack to see if there are goodies seems a bit too complicated. There are no parallels for these abilities within spellcasting or with maneuvers. I mean, Imagine if half of a wizard's spells did nothing but apply random bonuses to other random spells in random situations. Imagine not being able to select these "spells" so that you'd at least remember the ones that you picked. Telling a player to look through a selection of 20 abilities because they can't remember precisely what bonuses they got with what other abilities when is a bit extreme.
    I recommend either making some note of possible ability enhancements within the descriptions of the ability themselves so people will at least know where to reference or breaking down the normal three specializations and letting people choose their own abilities so they'll at least remember what they chose.

    Also, you may want to start adding FAQs to these things to address the obvious questions that you'd be getting each thread from newcomers (why do you use percentages, aren't those a lot of abilities, isn't this extremely powerful, etc).
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    You have a point, and I'm going to try to make my response come off as something more than "God forbid you write down your bonuses", even though it does boil down to that.

    Let's go with your wizard spells = passive bonuses analogy, tweaked a bit. Wizard spells are class features, and metamagic feats are passive bonuses. Now let's pretend Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Mirror Image, and, oh, say, Displacement are class features, along with, I don't know, Scorching Ray and Disintegrate.

    Your "Arcane Specialization" tree grants you Arcane Thesis for Disintegrate, along with the Maximize, Empower, Invisible Spell and Heighten Spell feats.

    And you've never heard of these spells.

    And they come from different splats.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? Wizards already do the whole "well, hang on a sec, I don't remember exactly..." deal all the time. If you can remember the exact details of a spell, plus metamagic, plus Thesis bonuses, I really don't see what the issue is here.

    See, you have this Disintegrate ability. At some point in your career, you also picked up this Arcane Thesis ability. This makes your Disintegrate ability stronger, and able to pierce spell resistance more easily. It also makes your "Maximize" ability, "Empower" ability, and "Invisible" ability easier to use with it (costs less mana, for the sake of the analogy).

    But what if you don't want to use your Disintegrate ability? No, you want to use your Scorching Ray ability. So, this ability does less damage than your other ability, because your Thesis ability doesn't apply to it. You can still apply your Maximize, Empower, and Invisible abilities to it, but they cost more when you do that. This Scorching Ray ability fires off three attacks too, so you have to roll all that three different times.

    Now, wouldn't it be easy to remember all of this if somebody presented it to you in a clear, concise table, and you wrote it all down?

    And Lord knows you can do a lot more complex things with metamagic than that simple example, and spells are a lot more complicated than "shoot ray for xd6 damage" usually.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    I'm confused as to the "non-lawful" alignment requirement, which is a very annoying trend I've seen several DMs add to rogues in the past. Has no one ever heard of retained spies? Loyal assassins? Court-sanctioned torturers? Hell, WoW itself has SI:7 which is, wait for it, lawful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    If you want to call sneaking around and planting landmines on the beach so poor, innocent Goblins can go for a swim and blow themselves up, sure, they're lawful.

    In all seriousness, I'm just going with the "Word of god" description of Warcraft rogues:

    Free from the constraints of a conscience, these mercenaries rely on brutal and efficient tactics.
    It's perfectly within the DM's right to allow a lawful rogue if he wants to, just like he can allow an Evil paladin or a Good death knight. I didn't think I had to add the "You're the DM, you can do whatever you want with alignments in your own game" disclaimer to every alignment.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Mr. Jarian, conscience is a good/evil axis concern, not a law/chaos one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    I see I should have quoted the whole thing, about their honor being purchased with gold and having no set code of conduct. I could, if you want, but I really doubt it would change your opinion on restricting an alignment.

    *shrug* As a DM, you can make rogues whatever alignment you want. You could say all rogues are holy assassins in your game, and make them lawful good. That's none of my business.

    As a player, you could say that your character concept is a law-abiding contract killer, and ask your DM for a lawful alignment. That's also none of my business, and up to him or her. As it stands though, I'm trying to replicate the classes as best as I'm able, and I really believe a nonlawful alignment is indicated, or else I wouldn't have put it there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaTedinator View Post

    For one, there's that handy list with the descriptive blurbs, so you can know what the spells do without looking them up. This means you already can trim the list down to spells you're considering, which is far less than 37.
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    As a first level Death Knight (for what is what my comment was addressing at the time) you have:
    Five active abilities, about a paragraph in length for each.
    Three Presences ("Stances"). They can be summed up in 7-10 words if necessary*
    Two passive bonuses (Blood/Unholy grant an additional +2 to a stat, but that's flat and can be forgotten once applied, so it's not something to keep track of).
    A Rune Recharge system
    A Runic Power system.
    And a partridge in a pear tree.

    If you take the entire class as it is on a first reading then yes, it can be daunting. Break it up into its level-sized chunks and it's...really not. If you try to read every Cleric - hell, even every Beguiler or Dread Necromancer - spell's full description (because that's what we have here) it'd be daunting. Why would you do that?

    *
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    Blood: +30% AC, -10% damage taken, +1 Temp HP/Class Level
    Frost: +10% damage with abilities, +10% runic power generated.
    Unholy: +10' base movement speed, +10% runic power generated.

    Blood Strike: Normal Damage, +15% damage per disease, 1 blood rune.
    Death Coil: 40', 1d6 Profane/2 Death Knight Levels, 40 Runic Power. Additional Effects.
    Icy Touch: 20', 1d4/Class Level, Fort save halves, infects Frost Fever. 1 Frost Rune.
    Plague Strike: Normal damage, infects Blood Plague. 1 Unholy Rune.
    Heart Strike: Normal damage, +25% per disease, additionally hits up to two enemies within 10', -25% damage per hit along chain. 1 Blood Rune.
    Frost Strike: Normal damage, +1 Cold damage/Class Level. 40 Runic Power.
    Scourge Strike: Normal damage, +1 Profane damage/2 Class Levels. Total damage +25%/Disease on target. 1 Unholy Rune.



    I didn't intend to write that last bit, but it was just to prove that these abilities can easily have a "spell blurb" too. The one exception I feel bad about was Death Coil, but I thought having additional effects in the spell description was okay considering things like Summon Monster/Undead/Nature's Ally/Father Christmas.



    *phew* Sorry about that. Was entirely off-topic. I apologise if I come across as overly brash, but I thought clarification was required.

    As for the alignment: I loathe alignment restrictions personally. With some classes it makes sense (Clerics, classes often dealing with the Undead depending on setting, Loladins), but for most I'd rather see them dropped. The standard 3.5 Rogue can be of any alignment, but Bards cannot.

    Dropping the restriction is my suggestion, but given the rather stabby-stabby chokey-chokey poison-happy nature of the WoW rogue, I can sort of understand why it's there. *shrug*

    In addition, I'm not so sure about Tricks of the Trade. Have you considered integrating some form of Goad (ComAdv, pg. 109) into it? Might help compensate for the lack of an actual aggro mechanic. A DM might normally compensate (one might hope), but you never know with some.

    "Ambidexterity" (Combat Spec) is typo'd "Amidexterity"

    Edit:

    "Overkill: While under the effects of her Stealth ability, and for three rounds after the effect fades, the Rogue gains an addtional 33% Energy regeneration."

    Typo on 'additional'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    -snip-
    And Lord knows you can do a lot more complex things with metamagic than that simple example, and spells are a lot more complicated than "shoot ray for xd6 damage" usually.
    You're right, and that analogy was pretty good.

    An artificier focused on stacking as many metamagic effects on wands as possible and then unleashing crazy damage-nukes from a simple wand of Scorching Ray might be similar in terms of "how many passive bonuses can I stack on this ability" compared to your conversions.

    However, most of the ordinary 3.5 damage combinations(via metamagic, class features, feats or even other spells like Assay Spell Resistance/True Strike) modify the ability itself - and then the ability stays that way.

    Once you've figured out your uber-metamagick'd scorching ray of DOOM formula, you know that you can toast someone for X damage when you unleash it.

    The only aftereffects you check are the typical defenses:
    SR, Potential Saving throws to reduce damage, (touch) AC, energy resistance, energy immunity or vulnerability to a certain energy type.

    Some abilities of your class, however, require you to keep track of the *debuffs/marks/combo points/whatever* you put on individual enemies, and this is where bookkeeping becomes more complicated than in DnD. I'm not saying this as criticism, because I suppose once you get the hang of your abilities and memorize the debuffs, it'll be just like playing a Battlefield Control wizard who has the status effects daze, stun, entangle, slowed etc memorized and can recall the appropriate penalties and effects at will, knows how they stack and interact, etc.

    All in all, it's just my unfamiliarity with such classes and the system you present here that makes me a bit hesitant, and perhaps unable to properly judge these classes. I freely admit that - without an campaign journal or a similar playtesting reference - I can't really gauge them.

    However, the "wall of text scares me" argument does have some merit, at least to me.

    Perhaps a different formatting might help to avoid that;
    Just by dividing some abilities into different sections.

    Yes, spellcasters and martial adepts(and Binders, and Shadowcasters, and Meldshapers, Manifesters, etc) each have HUGE amounts of info you need to study in order to play these classes - all the information concerning their casting/manifesting/binding/meldshaping mechanics. And that amount of information is FAR more than what you presented here, and a good deal more complex in many cases.

    However, the simple fact that this information is *sectioned off* into a seperate chapter and the class chassis only presents the neat word "Spellcasting* as placeholder serves to remove a whole lot of initial fear of being overwhelmed.

    Perhaps you can think of a similar way to structure the class, and such criticism will cease.

    Or you could simply ask of the reviewers that they give these classes a try, attempt to get involved more in depth with these classes to 'get a feel' for them, in order to more accurately realize how they play and what they can do.

    I'd be interested in playing in a campaign that features such classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    You have a point, and I'm going to try to make my response come off as something more than "God forbid you write down your bonuses", even though it does boil down to that.

    Let's go with your wizard spells = passive bonuses analogy, tweaked a bit. Wizard spells are class features, and metamagic feats are passive bonuses. Now let's pretend Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Mirror Image, and, oh, say, Displacement are class features, along with, I don't know, Scorching Ray and Disintegrate.

    Your "Arcane Specialization" tree grants you Arcane Thesis for Disintegrate, along with the Maximize, Empower, Invisible Spell and Heighten Spell feats.

    And you've never heard of these spells.

    And they come from different splats.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? Wizards already do the whole "well, hang on a sec, I don't remember exactly..." deal all the time. If you can remember the exact details of a spell, plus metamagic, plus Thesis bonuses, I really don't see what the issue is here.
    Wow. This comparison looks kind of wierd to me on multiple fronts.
    1. There is no "Arcane Specialization" tree to my knowledge. I know of no alternate class feature that forces specific feats onto a wizard. Thus, it is misleading to compare automatic features to metamagic feats. Instead, people actively choose metamagic feats, implying that their effects are known as they are being chosen in the first place.
    2. Every condensed spell list for every WotC caster in all of existance (again, as far as I know of) possesses some form of indication of what spells come from where and your class has no such parallel. Though you could say splat books increase your options, even knowing about that spell likely means that you have have some clue what it does.
    3. Arcane thesis in your example above doesn't actually possess a parallel in this class. Arcane thesis acts by changing how other metamagic feats (passive abilities) function on spells (class features), something not really paralleled in this class.
    4. Metamagic feats have more rhyme and reason in their application. You can only extend the duration of a spell with a duration, widen the area of a spell that has an area, or turn invisible a spell that was visible in the first place. As such, you can't really compare them to a passive effect that increases the damage of only 2 class features even though 15+ features deal damage.
    5. Your class functions at a far greater scale than the spellcaster you have provided. Few spellcasters actually possess 15 metamagic feats. In fact, a human wizard 20 would have to spend all feats (including wizard bonus feats) on metamagic, takes two flaws for more, and dark chaos shuffles scribe scroll for another to reach that number. What I'm saying is that 15 passive abilities of any kind is already a huge number even for a moderately optimized caster who knows what they are doing and yet you are granting that amount automatically.
    6. This is the big one. With metamagic feats, you choose to apply them to spells. It is a conscious decision that reflects pre-existing awareness of what the spell will do when combined with that spell. Even if a player is told to take a wierd metamagic feat by a friend, the fact that applying them is a choice means that the player can choose not to use them. It is completely optional and wizards can go from 1st to 20th level not using any metamagic feats. Your passive abilities, however, are not choices. Instead, they simply happen to abilities automatically. If that player doesn't go through the list and make sure that all of the abilities are being used, they are playing the class (RAW) incorrectly. Not unoptomized, incorrectly. As they are not optional, you create a need to know every single passive ability that spellcasters don't possess.
    7. Saying that the spells come from different splat-books is kind of defeating the point as they are representing class features. The only way that would make sense is if you are referring to alternate class features which kind of undermines your point as such features are deliberately chosen and are thus likely to be remembered rather than being class features that you simply recieve automatically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    Now, wouldn't it be easy to remember all of this if somebody presented it to you in a clear, concise table, and you wrote it all down?
    Yes. Yes that would be much easier to remember. Can you make one of those? The table you have up right now shows the levels at which you get the passive abilties but that really doesn't help unless you include which abilities empower which class features. All that I would dare to ask is that you put a third column next to the ability name that tells players what abilities it improves.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Wow. This comparison looks kind of wierd to me on multiple fronts.
    1. There is no "Arcane Specialization" tree to my knowledge. I know of no alternate class feature that forces specific feats onto a wizard. Thus, it is misleading to compare automatic features to metamagic feats. Instead, people actively choose metamagic feats, implying that their effects are known as they are being chosen in the first place.
    Missing the point? Yes. Intentionally? I think so, actually. Why? I have no idea.

    However, since you don't understand what I was trying to say there, it was a hypothetical "talent tree" that provided a "Wizard" with differing benefits, akin to the ones granted by this class. Hopefully that's cleared up now.

    2. Every condensed spell list for every WotC caster in all of existance (again, as far as I know of) possesses some form of indication of what spells come from where and your class has no such parallel. Though you could say splat books increase your options, even knowing about that spell likely means that you have have some clue what it does.
    Rather akin to choosing a class with a lot of abilities, wouldn't you say? I would imagine people would actually read their options before writing their class down, but hey, I may be making assumptions here.

    3. Arcane thesis in your example above doesn't actually possess a parallel in this class. Arcane thesis acts by changing how other metamagic feats (passive abilities) function on spells (class features), something not really paralleled in this class.
    It's a very minor stretch of the imagination to pretend they work that way for the purpose of the shared analogy, but hey, be difficult if you want.

    If you want to get technical, the example was actually a "talent" that functioned like Arcane Thesis to empower a class feature like Disintegrate, so really, they're pretty much the same. I imagine the talent would be written something like...

    "The Wizard's class level is treated as being two higher when using his Disintegrate ability, and he reduces the mana cost of applying his Empower and Maximize abilities to his Disintegrate ability by X"

    But sure, there's no parallel here. Moving on.

    4. Metamagic feats have more rhyme and reason in their application. You can only extend the duration of a spell with a duration, widen the area of a spell that has an area, or turn invisible a spell that was visible in the first place. As such, you can't really compare them to a passive effect that increases the damage of only 2 class features even though 15+ features deal damage.
    Shockingly, I thought it was a bad idea to make all damage increases apply across the board. You may disagree.

    5. Your class functions at a far greater scale than the spellcaster you have provided. Few spellcasters actually possess 15 metamagic feats. In fact, a human wizard 20 would have to spend all feats (including wizard bonus feats) on metamagic, takes two flaws for more, and dark chaos shuffles scribe scroll for another to reach that number. What I'm saying is that 15 passive abilities of any kind is already a huge number even for a moderately optimized caster who knows what they are doing and yet you are granting that amount automatically.
    a) Still missing the point of the analogy.
    b) Even in your example Assassination specialization, only four of the abilities increase damage directly, or five if you count increasing the damage of all daggers by one step. I wouldn't compare a non-damage increasing bonus to a metamagic feat, but rather something like, say, a caster level increase or something. I'm not actually writing an arcane talent tree, so I'm not sure on the exact details.

    6. This is the big one. With metamagic feats, you choose to apply them to spells. It is a conscious decision that reflects pre-existing awareness of what the spell will do when combined with that spell. [...etc]
    And yet, that's not the point I was making at all. I was comparing metamagic feats (max damage automatically, +50% variables) to certain talents that you were griping about (+30% damage, +20% damage). And yet, while you seem to have no issue understanding what maximize and empower do, you are hellbent on assuming that a player, after building his character for twenty levels, wouldn't know that he deals 30% more damage with a certain ability, thanks to his specialization.

    I disagree. I disagree vehemently.
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    Took me about five minutes in Excel. No level numbers, but if you can't keep track of what abilities you've acquired...try reading your character sheet?

    I missed the Assassination Mastery buff for poisons. My bad, you can mentally add a fourth one to the list under "Poisons".

    Edit: And were it not clear, that table is only dealing with Ass Spec. Seemed ridiculous to include the buffs from other specs considering that, you know, you won't have them.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    My apologies for sounding difficult.

    I honestly didn't see the argument that you had been trying to make in your previous point, apparently. I wasn't trying to be difficult on purpose (though my last numbered point was admittedly a bit pedantic). Let me try this again.

    What I worry most about with this class is the possibility of making high level characters from the get-go. I'd concur that someone gradually gaining levels would never be overwhelmed by the static abilities of this class but I believe that someone jumping in as a level 15 WoW rogue (who gets their passive abilities whether they want them or not) may have a few more problems than a level 15 wizard (who need not utilize metamagic feats or anything other than spells) for the first couple of sessions. I don't believe that such problems are overly large or hindering to the class but rather that they may slow down combat a bit, which can be an annoyance at times.

    You are quite correct that someone who performs their proper homework and writes things down could indeed move onwards while avoiding even these little problems but it seems to me that a lot of that extra book-keeping work could be saved through the addition of an additional column to the progression path of your specialization trees, showing what abilities (if any) are improved at which level. Would you be adverse to the addition of such a handy reference tool? If so, could you share your reasoning?

    Edit: Also, I sadly live in an area where a player might choose to be a rogue on the grounds that it's a rogue, without even reading a single class feature. I suppose that it's foolish to expect homebrew to cater to every possible audience, however.

    Edit Edit: Good lord, I just realized that I've been very much mistaken.
    I just mentally pictured a hypothetical Wu Jen Redux with spell secret at each level and realized that I'd be able to remember all of that with the greatest of ease. I was just having trouble thinking of less traditional bonuses in the same sense that I do metamagic feats... which was probably your entire point.

    *facepalm*

    I am very sorry for having inconvenianced you.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Feedback is never an inconvenience, even if that last bit did rile me up a bit. Since it was an honest misunderstanding though, I should apologize if I came off as being snappish.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    great class, i was an old wow rogue, and i always missed that class since i stopped wow, and too lazy to convert it in d&d (i was disappointed by the WOW rpg )

    lucky u did it ^^ i will enjoy using my stunlocking hemo template^^

    thx.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    I haven't read all of it, but this looks really nice. I play a gnome rogue, of course, sub spec.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I haven't read all of it, but this looks really nice. I play a gnome rogue, of course, sub spec.
    sometimes i miss my pre-burning crusade elf rogue with his 8k hp and t2-t3 stuff ^^

    my only regret was not finished to build "Thunderfury" the legendary sword... got only one part :((
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    when the Warrior or the mage ^^
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    I like this class as you already know Jarian.
    But why do you grant twf and none of the improvements?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Because a) in my games all of the benefits of TWF are unlocked at the appropriate BAB, and b) bonus feats are a lazy replacement for actual class features (though this does not always apply, of course). The Rogue has just as many feats available to her as any other character, and she can take the followup feats (though I find the concept of them not all being rolled into one feat to be silly) as she pleases.

    Edit: Derp, fixed class name. That'll teach me to post on no sleep!
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    Never having played WoW, I don't know how the game works. But I do know that in D&D 3.5, slashing the wrists of a construct does nothing to impede their attacks, same thing for making them bleed. It just doesn't work. Perhaps if you added a clause to some of the class features; "Does not work on creatures immune to critical hits". Otherwise, you have the only class I've ever seen that can make a bloodless creature bleed, and wish it wasn't.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    I haven't got much time to look through this and make assessments on this class. Not good at that anyway. I have only one thing to say;

    YOU. ARE. EPIC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctemwolf View Post
    I haven't got much time to look through this and make assessments on this class. Not good at that anyway. I have only one thing to say;

    YOU SIR. ARE EPIC.
    Well, you're half right, anyway.

    Thank you.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    aaaaaand fix 0-0** time to start paying more attention to things
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Rogue [PEAR!]

    These classes are daunting, but we'll playtest the Paladin this sunday, see how it goes. I might be able to talk my player to let go her normal rogue for some two or three sessions and use this rogue for playtest reasons, but I'm not sure she'll want it.

    Edit: I however, believe you SHOULD try to make some, don't know, spoiler or quote in each ability listing the other abilities that grant bonuses to it, at least reference them, something like

    Ability X: it does awesome thing X as an attack action. You spend Y thing and if the attack hits you gain Z Uber Point. It is usable every 4 turns.
    Aura of Randomness: If this ability is activated, you spend only 1/2 Y thing.
    X-Ray Specialization: If you have this ability, Ability X is usable once every 2 turns.
    Udda-Mugga Bump of Hell: If you are recharging Udda-Mugga Bump of Hell when using this ability, Udda-Mugga Bump of Hell become avaible for use again.

    or even

    Ability X: it does awesome thing X as an attack action. You spend Y thing and if the attack hits you gain Z Uber Point. It is usable every 4 turns.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Aura of Randomness: If this ability is activated, you spend only 1/2 Y thing.
    X-Ray Specialization: If you have this ability, Ability X is usable once every 2 turns.
    Udda-Mugga Bump of Hell: If you are recharging Udda-Mugga Bump of Hell when using this ability, Udda-Mugga Bump of Hell become avaible for use again.


    It's a lot of work for YOU but it would be a lot less work for everyone!


    Edit 2: If you could make the Warrior and the squishy arcane user of elements (whatever it is on wow) next, I could make my players playtest it too, while we're still at lower levels. I'm not really hot to give this as a playtest to a 10th level char, but since we're still at 4th...
    Last edited by DiBastet; 2011-02-26 at 09:08 AM.
    Commander Shepard defends the Earth thanks to Vrythas.

    Egopad
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    Excuse me while I go make a Coolest Game Ever trophy for you.

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