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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Dhavaer's Avatar

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    Default Battlemage [looking for help]

    I'm looking to make a gish class that rewards alternating between spells and melee attacks. I've thought of an ability to do this, but my problems are a) that I'm not sure that the ability is balanced and b) I can't think of any other abilities, so I've come looking for help. This is what I have so far:

    Battlemage

    Hit Dice: d8

    Proficiencies
    Armour: Light and medium, plus shields
    Weapons: Simple and martial
    Saving throws: Constitution, Intelligence
    Skills: Choose two

    Spellcasting

    Cantrips, Spell Slots and Spells Known: as Bard, but spells are cast from the Battlemage list
    Spellcasting Ability: Intelligence

    Steel Focus

    As a battlemage you have the ability to create a bond between yourself and a weapon. Establishing the bond can be done over a short rest. You know the location of a weapon bonded to you as long as it is on the same plane, and can use it as an arcane focus. Ranged attack spells for which you use your bonded weapon as an arcane focus are not disadvantaged in melee. You can be bonded to only one weapon at a time. Bonding a second weapon breaks your current bond, or fails.

    Fighting Style

    As the fighter ability, but you can take only Defence, Duelling or Great Weapon Fighting.

    Sword and Sorcery

    At second level, your bond with your weapon allows you to make openings for your blade with your spells, and vice versa.

    On a successful attack with your bonded weapon against an enemy that you successfully attacked with a spell or that failed a save against your spell last turn, you deal extra damage equal to your intelligence modifier plus the level of the spell. This damage is of the type dealt by your spell. If your spell did not deal damage, it is Force damage.

    Your spells deal additional damage to enemies damaged by your melee attacks. In addition to their other effects, any enemy affected by one of your spells takes damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier for each of your melee attacks with your bonded weapon that hit them last turn.

    Ability Increase

    As normal, gained at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19.

    Extra Attack

    As normal, gained at level 6.

    Battlemage Spells

    As Wizard spells but without:

    0 Level
    Friends

    1 Level
    Charm Person
    Comprehend Languages
    Disguise Self
    Find Familiar
    Illusory Script
    Ray of sickness

    2 level
    Arcane Lock
    Continual Flame
    Crown of Madness
    Gentle Repose
    Locate Object
    Magic Mouth
    Nystul's Magic Aura
    Ray of enfeeblement
    Suggestion

    3 level
    Bestow Curse
    Blink
    Feign Death
    Hypnotic Pattern
    Nondetection
    Tongues

    4 level
    Leomund's Secret Chest
    Locate Creature
    Otiluke's Resilient Sphere

    5 level
    Contact Other Plane
    Dominate Person
    Dream
    Geas
    Legend Lore
    Seeming

    6 level
    Drawmij's Instant Summons
    Magic Jar

    7 level
    Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
    Project Image
    Sequester
    Simulacrum

    8 level
    Antipathy/Sympathy
    Demiplane
    Dominate Monster
    Feeblemind
    Maze
    Trap the Soul

    9 level
    Astral Projection
    Imprisonment

    _____


    That's all I have so far. It needs a capstone (something to regain spells, judging by the other casting classes) and subclasses. I'm thinking there will be two subclasses, an offensive one (which I'm currently calling either Spellsword or Arcanamach) and one based on protecting the party against incoming spells (Abjurant Champion). I don't know what abilities they should grant though. I don't want to just copy the abjurer's abilities. The spell list will be a cut down wizard list, mostly losing single target enchantments (charm person and similar), buffs (because they don't work well with Sword and Sorcery) and the really esoteric stuff (feign death, demiplane).

    Suggestions?
    Last edited by Dhavaer; 2015-03-13 at 09:23 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Why use this over Eldritch knight? I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but this doesn't seem different enough from that to warrant a whole new class.

    As an ability, Sword and Sorcery is a bit messy, but workable. The thing you need is something that allows you to cast ranged spells and cantrips in melee without Disadvantage; Otherwise, you're kinda limited in what spells you can use with it.

    If you want to build this as a full class, Crib EK. It should have a d8 hit die, one Extra Attack (only the fighter get's multiple instances of the Extra Attack) A non fighter progression of ASI's , and essentially all of the EK's abilities.

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Eldritch Knight is a fighter with a few spells, and I want a caster that fights, like a Valour bard without the singing or focus on skills. It also doesn't get the sort of spells a fighter would want; abjuration is pretty good but evocation is hit hard by the slow spell progression, it should have buffs that are good at any level.

    I'm not sure that casting in melee is a big problem; an ability allowing it without disadvantage on attacks would be good for filling a dead level but there are plenty of spells with saves instead of attacks that don't have a problem in melee that could be cast instead.

    I did forget about Extra Attack, yes. I was thinking one attack at sixth level, the same as the Valour bard.
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Hit Dice: d8 or d10.
    D8 for certain.

    Skills: Choose two
    Need a list to choose from.

    Spellcasting
    A Martial fullcaster, huh? That's going to be a bit difficult to pull off. Closest things to a martial fullcaster are the Druid, Bard, and Pact of Blade Warlock. Druids perform too specifically martially, through Wildshape and Shillelagh, so we can put the Druid aside. That leaves us with the Bard and PoB Warlock. Both are decent martials, but hardly compare to the martial might of the Fighter, Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian. What they lack in martial ability, they easily make up for through the full range of casting.

    So if you want to make your Gish a fullcaster, you're going to have to tone down its martial prowess.

    The classes the achieve the fullest balance between martial ability and casting are the Paladin and the Ranger, both being Halfcasters. I might recommend you modeling it after them, rather than the Bard.

    Steel Focus

    As a battlemage you have the ability to create a bond between yourself and a weapon. Establishing the bond can be done over a short rest. You know the location of a weapon bonded to you as long as it is on the same plane, and can use it as an arcane focus. You can be bonded to only one weapon at a time. Bonding a second weapon breaks your current bond, or fails.

    Fighting Style

    As the fighter ability, but you can take only Defence, Dueling or Great Weapon Fighting.
    Considering the presence of Dueling, I would have expected your Battlemage to have proficiency in shields. But it doesn't. Wizards don't typically use shields, but I can imagine a Battlemage using shields prolifically.

    Sword and Sorcery

    At second level, your bond with your weapon allows you to make openings for your blade with your spells, and vice versa.

    On a successful attack with your bonded weapon against an enemy that you successfully attacked with a spell or that failed a save against your spell last turn, you deal extra damage equal to your intelligence modifier plus the level of the spell.

    You have advantage on spell attack rolls against enemies you damaged with your bonded weapon last turn. Such enemies also have disadvantage on saves against your spells.
    The latter feature is too powerful. It grants you unlimited on-demand advantage/disadvantage with your spells at 2nd level. The Eldritch Knight's 10th level feature only grants disadvantage on a creature's next save against the EK's spells. You've taken the EK's 10th level feature and then essentially double its power, and this isn't including the other feature at 2nd level. I recommend leaving the former spell as is and moving the latter feature to a much higher level, perhaps around 14th.

    That's all I have so far. It needs a capstone (something to regain spells, judging by the other casting classes) and subclasses. I'm thinking there will be two subclasses, an offensive one (which I'm currently calling either Spellsword or Arcanamach) and one based on protecting the party against incoming spells (Abjurant Champion). I don't know what abilities they should grant though. I don't want to just copy the abjurer's abilities. The spell list will be a cut down wizard list, mostly losing single target enchantments (charm person and similar), buffs (because they don't work well with Sword and Sorcery) and the really esoteric stuff (feign death, demiplane).
    Capstone could be something related to action economy. This class is meant to meld Sword and Spell together, right? Maybe at 20th level you can cast cantrips that have a casting time of 1 action using 1 bonus action instead.

    Have you seen the Guide to Homebrewing Classes?

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leuku View Post
    D8 for certain.
    Sounds good.

    Need a list to choose from.
    I'm away from my books right now, is there anything in the Wizard or Fighter skill lists you think I should avoid?

    Considering the presence of Dueling, I would have expected your Battlemage to have proficiency in shields. But it doesn't. Wizards don't typically use shields, but I can imagine a Battlemage using shields prolifically.
    Good point. I'm biased because I hate shields, but yes, they should have proficiency.

    The latter feature is too powerful. It grants you unlimited on-demand advantage/disadvantage with your spells at 2nd level. The Eldritch Knight's 10th level feature only grants disadvantage on a creature's next save against the EK's spells. You've taken the EK's 10th level feature and then essentially double its power, and this isn't including the other feature at 2nd level. I recommend leaving the former spell as is and moving the latter feature to a much higher level, perhaps around 14th.
    I can't quite make sense of your recommendation, could you clarify?

    Capstone could be something related to action economy. This class is meant to meld Sword and Spell together, right? Maybe at 20th level you can cast cantrips that have a casting time of 1 action using 1 bonus action instead.
    It's meant to do the opposite, really. I want to reward alternating between casting and combat rather than combine them. Maybe they could regain a spell slot on a crit affected by Sword and Sorcery, up to the level of the spell in the previous turn or 5th, whichever is lower? Not sure if that would be too rare or too common.
    Last edited by Dhavaer; 2015-03-12 at 09:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Leuku! Where were you when I unveiled my Sha’ir?

    Anyway, on topic:

    If this is going to be a full caster class, it should be based on the cleric. Fighting styles should be baked into the subclass (one subclass for dual wielding, one for great weapons, one for shields).

    Full casters don't get extra attack.

    The class feature needs to be broken down over several levels. It also needs more features in general.

    Read Leuku's homebrew guide. It will help.

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodshed343 View Post
    Full casters don't get extra attack.
    Eh? Valour Bards do.
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    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
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    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    I don't like it the way it is. Don't mean to rain on your parade, but why not make it into a wizard (or sorcerer) subclass instead?

    You could make it based on valor bard (weapon and armor prof, extra attack) and grant your abilities at the other levels.
    Last edited by DiBastet; 2015-03-13 at 07:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    Eh? Valour Bards do.
    In that sense, so do bladelocks. But no full caster gets extra attack as part of their base class progression.

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodshed343 View Post
    In that sense, so do bladelocks. But no full caster gets extra attack as part of their base class progression.
    That is not so much because it is somehow "wrong" to do so and more because the existing full casting classes are not by default physical combatants as well. Thus, their extra attacks are optional features or tied to their specific combat-centric progressions.
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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    Sounds good.

    I can't quite make sense of your recommendation, could you clarify?
    Your ability here isn't QUITE as powerful as "always on advantage" because you need to be actively hitting them in melee. That being said, I think getting advantage on spell attack rolls is far and away less powerful than doling out disadvantage on spell saves. I'd split this ability up: At 2nd level, grant the advantage on spell attack rolls. At a higher level, grant the disadvantage ability. Again, i'd still include an ability to cast ranged spells in melee to expand this class's damage type options, and i'd also give him the EK's "bonus action attack following a spell" at a decently high level, maybe 12th.

    This could be really fun to play, though i'm having a hard time figuring out game balance as a full caster. You'd either have to limit his available spells to a great degree (like the warlock) or reduce/remove his higher levels spells (Like the paladin). There's just too much martial goodness available here otherwise.

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    Your ability here isn't QUITE as powerful as "always on advantage" because you need to be actively hitting them in melee. That being said, I think getting advantage on spell attack rolls is far and away less powerful than doling out disadvantage on spell saves. I'd split this ability up: At 2nd level, grant the advantage on spell attack rolls. At a higher level, grant the disadvantage ability. Again, i'd still include an ability to cast ranged spells in melee to expand this class's damage type options, and i'd also give him the EK's "bonus action attack following a spell" at a decently high level, maybe 12th.

    This could be really fun to play, though i'm having a hard time figuring out game balance as a full caster. You'd either have to limit his available spells to a great degree (like the warlock) or reduce/remove his higher levels spells (Like the paladin). There's just too much martial goodness available here otherwise.
    What do you think of scrapping the advantage/disadvantage idea altogether and having spells that affect struck enemies deal, say, 1d8+Str/Dex damage per melee hit in addition to their other effects. The idea for Sword and Sorcery is that you should always want to follow a melee attack up with a spell or vice versa and the original version was what I thought of as something that would be useful for all offensive spells.

    Using ranged spells in melee sounds like it should be a fairly low level ability and the front end of the class is already pretty full. How about I make it part of Steel Focus?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    So, I'm doing this (Sort of) with my current warlock using my homebrew Eldritch Claw invocation, and I think you could get the same benefit. As a level 12 warlock, I can either add my strength and charisma bonus to my sword, and my charisma bonus to my eldritch blast.

    How about this: Whenever you hit with a spell, your bonded weapon deals additional (Energy type) damage equal to your Int mod for the following round. Whenever you deal damage with your Bonded weapon, your spells deal additional damage equal to your Str or Dex mod for the following round.

    Once you get in an ability to do both things in the round, you can really start stacking your damage modifiers.

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    Default Re: Battlemage [looking for help]

    Okay, I've changed Sword and Sorcery and added the ranged spells thing to Steel Focus. I've also added the spell list, or more accurately I've listed what it doesn't have but the wizard does. Is there anything else I should drop? Anything else I should add? I'd like Eldritch Blast (yay non-elemental blasting) but I don't know if it's overpowered for non-Warlocks.
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    5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

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