First Kill as the DM

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think my first kill was a matter of convenience. The barbarian's player was about to take a vacation for ten days or two weeks, while the other players were similarly free, but staying in town, and thus wanted to play. Cut to a dead barbarian and a sidequest to revive him. I don't think anybody was too worried about it, but I think the amount of effort that went into bringing him back didn't make the death seem too cheap, either.

My first non-plot/"accidental" kill was a random goblin on a mountain road somewhere. The party's sorcerer, an elf who insisted on competing with the drow wizard at every opportunity, also happened to have the best initiative. Accordingly, on the surprise round, he launched into a barrage of spells and wiped out most of the goblins before anybody else got a chance to act. Of the five or six remaining, a couple more died over the rest of that round, and when he came up again the next round, he rolled either an intimidatemcheck to crush whatever was left of their morale and more just brag about what a general badass he was. Generally, I give pretty big circumstance modifiers both for circumstance and for the content the player RPs. While it was the right time, on top of rolling a one, he said all the wrong things, including something about them being "nameless talleymarks" on a scoreboard between himself and the wizard. One of the goblins, who was more angered than intimidated, snarled "They had names," and began listing his companions names turn-by-turn.
Nobody managed to kill him, or even touch him, before it was his turn, at which point the goblin bull-rushed the sorcerer. . . right over the edge of the road, and thus the mountain, still howling their names over-and-over until there was a gross sound and the yelling stopped. The whole party, OOC and (except for the wizard) IC, was shocked. I didn't really expect it to happen, either; I understood it was a possibility, but I figured on it being a far more remote one than it turned out to be. A few high damage rolls and low HP can really take their toll, even a few levels in, I guess.
I liked having the death in a random, largely meaningless encounter; I think that sorta added to the impact, more than a big, final battle would have. It really drove the message home that things just happen sometimes, and that as an adventurer, you can just get unlucky and die somewhere doing something routine, especially if you get too cocky. The sorcerer's player wasn't too upset, since, as he put it, "We all have to learn not to talk smack with our back to a cliff, someday."

The best part was after the sorcerer died, when the party looked at the wizard accusingly, and asked why he hadn't cast the Feather Fall he prepared. The wizard, with that smarmy drow charm, looked at them like they were all idiots and said he had. He had sent me a text saying to cast it on the goblin, so the party had no idea. He gave them a spyglass to pass around to prove that he had; the party, each in turn, got to look at the perfectly-healthy goblin making his way along the mountain away from the mangled sorcerer. The wizard then shrugged and said, "I guess he wins, this time; doesn't look like I have any talley marks down there," as the goblin got away and the party just gaped at his grin. Right up until that moment, he was a prissy and self-centered CGish drow wizard who was somewhere between a charming ends-justify-the-means anti-hero and Drizztillation into the stereotype of all non-evil drow, but from then on, he was firmly established as a CN powerhouse of magnificent bastardhood.

[Slipperychicken]

[Goblin Revenge Story]

That's just... Epic. I'm assuming you read Goblins at some point or other?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I actually didn't hear about it until after that, but I was excited to know somebody else felt bad for the poor little "cannon fodder" monsters. I was always proud of that one goblin (ironically, one the two in the group who never got a name, since he listed the others' names) for taking out a PC, totally unscathed, without even needing class levels. Just one good roll and a big mountain. Well, I guess he wouldn't have been unscathed had that drow not wanted to utterly humiliate the sorcerer as he died.

[Kerghan]

What does "properly balanced" mean? I find this term kind of offensive. An encounter that can potentially wipe the players? Okay, sure - so what are their options? Can they run away? Can they try another path?

If you throw an encounter at your players that they have no choice but to either defeat or die, then you've railroaded them, and a PC death is on your head. That's why you always give them a choice. Engage, or don't engage. Allow the villain to retreat, or pursue the villain. Defend the wall to the last man, or let the bad guys take the wall and survive to continue the defense further in the town.

Planning can *never* account for all player decisions. It can't. If you try, you're going to end up railroading. A good DM has to make stuff up on the spot - but again, always give the players a way out.

Properly balanced usually refers to a Challenge rating that matches a group of four with the same number as their level, but if you play with a group of powergamed characters (or you have more than 4 players) then balancing encounters can be difficult. Not all monsters are created equal as a lucky roll can make a mind flayer extremely dangerous, and an Advanced hit dice Great Wyrm dragon less dangerous. The best solution to this problem is to test out the characters with regular combat or basically do some sort of roleplaying intrigue like diplomatically resolving a war or whatever else floats your boat. When you have a comfortable feel for your players' strengths and weaknesses, you should be able to plan accordingly. To sum up, practice makes perfect, or in case, more appropriate encounters. Properly balanced insulting? Are your encounters not properly balanced? Do you kill a player a session, or did you assume I was taking an intentional shot at you? Now I think I'm insulted.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Yeah, if I 'm running something I'm unfamiliar with in a campaign, I'll definitely have an NPC ally who goes from buffoon to badass at the drop of a hat around for the first couple fights to be sure I don't kill anybody/everybody just because I figured something would be more powerful than it actually was in practice, as played by that player.

[faceroll]

Getting your Katy Perry reference fills me with shame.

Katy Perry is pretty good pop.

[kyoryu]

Properly balanced usually refers to a Challenge rating that matches a group of four with the same number as their level, but if you play with a group of powergamed characters (or you have more than 4 players) then balancing encounters can be difficult. Not all monsters are created equal as a lucky roll can make a mind flayer extremely dangerous, and an Advanced hit dice Great Wyrm dragon less dangerous. The best solution to this problem is to test out the characters with regular combat or basically do some sort of roleplaying intrigue like diplomatically resolving a war or whatever else floats your boat. When you have a comfortable feel for your players' strengths and weaknesses, you should be able to plan accordingly. To sum up, practice makes perfect, or in case, more appropriate encounters. Properly balanced insulting? Are your encounters not properly balanced? Do you kill a player a session, or did you assume I was taking an intentional shot at you? Now I think I'm insulted.

No, I didn't take it as a shot at me. I just don't like the idea of "balanced" encounters. The idea itself insinuates that the job of the DM is to provide a series of challenges of just the right power at just the right time so that the players feel awesome.

I prefer to stick the players in a world. If they go into the wrong spots, they will encounter things that will kill them. If they go into some areas, the opponents will be trivial. And encounter difficulty is fixed with giving the players options to do things like flee, rather than just making sure that everything is always perfectly balanced for them.

[panaikhan]

My first kill was the player's own fault. He spotted a GROUP of orc bowmen, climbed a hill 100' away, and shouted his battle cry.

They were all using poisoned arrows. (2ed)

The last two sessions have been ... interesting.
The first session saw the cleric of the group mashed into a bloody pulp by a flesh golem, whilst fighting a minor BBEG. After the battle, in which the BBEG escaped, they manage to free a prisoner (whom I statted into a replacement cleric - they needed one).
Next session, they start another battle. More high-level NPC's. More flesh golems. Halfway through, the minor BBEG pops up, and kills the fighter. They do manage to polish him off this time tho.

The cleric's player had stopped turning up, so it wasn't much of a deal.
The fighter's player took it rather well considering. He was just glad the party managed to kill the bad guy, and resigned to take the level hit in being Raised by the new cleric.

[DontEatRawHagis]

I have only knocked out a PC once, and it got to the point where I wanted to kill him. Not because of anything the player was doing, he was doing it all pretty well.

I knocked him out with a Dust Devil and then flung him into a quicksand pit. Luckily the healer was there. My players didn't know in 4e you don't die until -10 or after 3 death save fails.

[Ormur]

My first kill as a DM was not actually accomplished by an NPC but the PC's themselves. I don't actively try to kill the party but they are tough enough so I have to challenge them with dangerous encounters. They decided to storm a small castle defended by a few archers and a wizard. While failing to scale the walls the factotum/warblade was hit by a confusion effect and the unarmed swordsage by a domination (to kill the factotum/warblade). A few turns of the swordsage trying to hit the warblade and the warblade doing random things ensued and ended with the swordsage ripping out the heart of the warblade with Flesh Ripper. Meanwhile the sorcerer took care of the encounter.

It was nasty but very fun to watch.

[Jastermereel]

My first kill was collaborative. The player was growing a little tired of their character. While it made good character sense as to why they were Fighter 2 / Wizard 2, and I was impressed they stuck with it as much as they had, it, as expected, wasn't really working out well for them. So, as we discussed it, their character, for largely IC reasons, behaved more and more recklessly until they had a fantastic final act.

The long version is detailed in session #21 here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...59&postcount=6

The short version is that the party was fighting a Level-Boss oversized Ankheg. It had injured the party's primary muscle rather badly, so Ennostiel was placing a landmine over which to lure the beast. It mortally wounded her before she could move from the square it was placed in and so collapsed atop it. It needed someone to enter the square to detonate so while she effectively hid the mine, she didn't trigger it. The Ankheg Queen, becomes quite wounded, looks to flee but is otherwise impeded. It steps on her, into that square, and KABOOM. No more Ankheg. No more Warforged gish with identity issues.

That said, I'm generally not looking to kill my players. It's more fun to work with them to weave character-focused side-stories through the campaign. Killing them resets their personal stake in the story. They should fear for their lives and you can only fear if you have a personal investment in the character's history and future.

[Calimehter]

No, I didn't take it as a shot at me. I just don't like the idea of "balanced" encounters. The idea itself insinuates that the job of the DM is to provide a series of challenges of just the right power at just the right time so that the players feel awesome.

I prefer to stick the players in a world. If they go into the wrong spots, they will encounter things that will kill them. If they go into some areas, the opponents will be trivial. And encounter difficulty is fixed with giving the players options to do things like flee, rather than just making sure that everything is always perfectly balanced for them.

I prefer this route as well.

My preference is based partly on my first (D&D) PC "kill". I had a long-running campaign going way back in 2nd ed. in which the PCs were looking for clues about a lost sword. I had been throwing both low-powered and high-powered encounters at them depending on what the situation would 'realistically' call for, and they had been doing a fine job of overcoming those encounters.

Well, I decided to change things up a bit and come up with a 'balanced' encounter to test them against in the form of a competing party of Githyanki who were also looking for the same sword. I cannot recall the exact composition of the Githyanki party, but they were largely analogs of the PCs in terms of classes (just a level or two lower).

The PCs were in the process of questioning an NPC who had some knowledge of the sword, when the lone 'scout-type' Githyanki from the rival party appeared on the scene. He spotted the PCs talking to this key NPC, and being unable to stop the PCs on his own, he promptly assassinated the NPC at range and took off. At this point, the Ranger/Wizard PC promptly took off after the culprit, and in the process badly outran his fellow PCs who were slow to come up behind. After several rounds of keeping the enemy in his sights but not being able to close, the Ranger/Wizard rounds a corner . . . and runs smack into the entire Githyanki party . . . the same party that I had already pre-statted out to be a 'balanced' fight for the entire party of PCs.

He might have even survived the bashing that followed, since the Githyanki had reason to turn tail as soon as the Ranger/Wizard was down, except that the very last spell he was hit with as he went down was Beltyn's Burning Blood. The rest of the PCs caught up soon after, but not in time to save their fellow adventurer from his own fiery ichor.

In some ways it was the players fault for getting out so far ahead of his teammates (and he's gotten his characters into scrapes in the same fashion many times before and since), but he had also been successful doing it before in this particular campaign, precisely because I had been encouraging the PCs to react to the world 'as it is' instead of just assuming that all the encounters they were facing were designed to be balanced against the whole team.

[Kerghan]

No, I didn't take it as a shot at me. I just don't like the idea of "balanced" encounters. The idea itself insinuates that the job of the DM is to provide a series of challenges of just the right power at just the right time so that the players feel awesome.

I prefer to stick the players in a world. If they go into the wrong spots, they will encounter things that will kill them. If they go into some areas, the opponents will be trivial. And encounter difficulty is fixed with giving the players options to do things like flee, rather than just making sure that everything is always perfectly balanced for them.

So you prefer the sandbox approach? Well, the problem with that is that characters sometimes get lost or overwhelmed with all the decisions available to them (or perhaps unavailable). It sounds more like you're playing a video game instead of actually dming.Yes you're acting out the NPCs, but where's the direction, or the storyline?

[Provengreil]

i have 3 stories.

one time they had a random encounter with a sea hag. i know those are questionably CRed, but i felt it was fair since one of the party members was immune to all of it's abilities and gonna take half damage from its attacks(bone creature template). this PC ran around it's hut instead of fighting. not just behind the hut, AROUND. in circles. the second PC, a sorceror, had the first turn and delayed his action after saying "hello there!" in goblin. the third PC failed his save vs the evil eye before he acted. they lost, but i think i can blame them for it, really.

another time my PCs were, in a unexpected turn of events, siding with the kobolds they had been sent to kill and had decided this would be an evil campaign. OK, fine. so they took a group of kobold warriors out to kill some of the townspeople. a pair of rangers killed most of the kobold group, so their segeant hulked out and rolled 12 straight 20s. yes, 12. the one kobold critted his way to as many kills that encounter as the party fighter. not a PC kill, but there you have it.

Later that campaign, they were working with necromancers and had decided to kill them and take their stuff(they had reasons). unfortunately, one was a cancer mage and had given the party tank, a warblade, a hug a couple of days ago. he hadn't made a single fort save since. this guy, the cancer mage, jumps into combat against 4 wizards and a cleric, all of unknown levels of power. 3 rays of enfeeblement, a hold person, 2 grease spells and a really bad grapple later, the PCs are on the zombie table.

[kyoryu]

So you prefer the sandbox approach? Well, the problem with that is that characters sometimes get lost or overwhelmed with all the decisions available to them (or perhaps unavailable). It sounds more like you're playing a video game instead of actually dming.Yes you're acting out the NPCs, but where's the direction, or the storyline?

Sandbox does not mean "nothing happens unless the players do it."

a) As the DM, part of my job is making sure they understand the context of the world, and the opportunities available to them. If they set a long-term goal, it's my job to make sure they have some idea of what might get them there, or progress them along that path in the short term. Essentially, my job becomes giving the player the knowledge that the character should have.

b) Playing a video game instead of DMing? I'm going to ignore that as being argumentative.

c) The storyline and narrative comes via the players' actions, and the consequences of those actions. If they raid the High Temple of Babblewong, you'd better believe that if any worshippers of Babblewong find out, there's gonna be repercussions. It could even tick the whole cult off, causing them to start a war or action against either the PCs or the perceived source of the problem. There is not, however, a predetermined, novel-like plot that the players will be marched through. Also, events *do* happen in the world. Wars start. Kings die. Merchants get pissy with each other, and other factions stir things up. These all represent strands that the players could take up - or not. But the world marches on in either case.

[The_Jackal]

While I've never deliberately gunned for my players when I run, I do like to make dangerous, challenging scenarios, and I NEVER fudge rolls. I've killed PCs outright for doing stupid things, and I've had TPKs for my party when they've slopped fights. My favorite of these was a simple encounter with a group of bandits holed up in a cave, backed by a mid-level sorcerer, with some kenneled up dire wolves in the back of the cave. The party monk snuck into the kennel area, courtesy of a narrow shaft at the top of the cave, only to blow his stealth roll and get mauled by a ferocious pack of dire wolves. The rest of the party decided to kick down the door and rescue him, only to get jammed up fighting the entire bandit force. While they cut an impressive swath through the bandits, the bandits, having nowhere to run, didn't break ranks, instead fighting defensively to buy time for their sorcerer to melt the party, which he eventually did. Result: the entire party was killed, and their corpses looted and rolled into a gully, where their bodies were discovered by a benevolent trapper, and brought to nearby Abbey, where they were recognized as heroes and resurrected. Fun times.

[MeeposFire]

Sandbox does not mean "nothing happens unless the players do it."

a) As the DM, part of my job is making sure they understand the context of the world, and the opportunities available to them. If they set a long-term goal, it's my job to make sure they have some idea of what might get them there, or progress them along that path in the short term. Essentially, my job becomes giving the player the knowledge that the character should have.

b) Playing a video game instead of DMing? I'm going to ignore that as being argumentative.

c) The storyline and narrative comes via the players' actions, and the consequences of those actions. If they raid the High Temple of Babblewong, you'd better believe that if any worshippers of Babblewong find out, there's gonna be repercussions. It could even tick the whole cult off, causing them to start a war or action against either the PCs or the perceived source of the problem. There is not, however, a predetermined, novel-like plot that the players will be marched through. Also, events *do* happen in the world. Wars start. Kings die. Merchants get pissy with each other, and other factions stir things up. These all represent strands that the players could take up - or not. But the world marches on in either case.

1) So on that long term goal that you are going to try to follow are you going to make the party fight ECL 20 at party level 3 since they want to destroy the giant king since it makes sense or are you going to find a way to create encounters that they can actually have a chance at beating?

2) You should ignore that comment as for one video games do it in all ways. In Baldur's gate you could get into fights way above your level (if you really tried) but in Dragon Age origins fights are leveled to you (though even then it may not be possible until high levels due to your need for more talents and spells).

3) Is the retaliation from the temple going to be much higher than the party's level or are you going to make the retribution just happen to be near their level so that the encounter can actually be a fight? Just because you level fights in accordance with the party does not mean you do not follow a storyline or you ignore obvious consequences of actions. Chances are you are going to tell me that you would send groups of encounters that are relatively in the same ballpark in power as the party so as to make interesting combats (with a few exceptions of course).

[true_shinken]

Katy Perry is pretty good pop.

The only pop I'll ever find good is Michael Jackson's.

[MeeposFire]

The only pop I'll ever find good is Michael Jackson's.

The only pop I think is good is when it is called soda. Stupid NE Ohio...

[kyoryu]

1) So on that long term goal that you are going to try to follow are you going to make the party fight ECL 20 at party level 3 since they want to destroy the giant king since it makes sense or are you going to find a way to create encounters that they can actually have a chance at beating?

If the goal is to kill the giant king, fine. That doesn't mean that you do it at level 3. Maybe you have to wait a while. It can be a long term goal - and then we can look at short-term goals that get you closer to that goal.

That said, if the party decides to ignore the subtle and not-so-subtle warnings they're given and kick in the giant king's door at level 3... so be it.

3) Is the retaliation from the temple going to be much higher than the party's level or are you going to make the retribution just happen to be near their level so that the encounter can actually be a fight? Just because you level fights in accordance with the party does not mean you do not follow a storyline or you ignore obvious consequences of actions. Chances are you are going to tell me that you would send groups of encounters that are relatively in the same ballpark in power as the party so as to make interesting combats (with a few exceptions of course).

Depends on how badly they've ticked everyone off. THe cult has limited resources as well, and will choose to engage the party in appropriate ways. They might send forces after the party that the party can't defeat - in which case, the party had best think about escaping and staying hidden. Or, worst case, surrender.

What I don't typically do is throw an encounter at the party that they have no way of winning, and no way to escape from. Not every encounter has to be, or should be, kill or be killed.

[klemdakherzbag]

First official kill was in first session after the BSF decides to turn his back on two attacking dire rats. Well actually was at 0 HP, he got better after a random wandering paladin layed-hands for full HP.

First TPK was last weekend after the above BSF egged the other BSF into attacking the unconscious druids pet panther. Attack missed but said Druid was roused and retaliated against the second fighter. First fighter then attacked the panther. Druid and pet only survived (and leveled) due to DM fiat and playing in-character. Only party member to remain unharmed was the NE rogue.

[Bibliomancer]

My first kill as a DM was at level 4, when one of the players charged a squad of powerful agents working for the local (previously established as highly organized and quite competent) noble after said agents captured the party (after the party burned down the house they were in to get back at them for being shortchanged on a reward which the agents only did because the party had previously stolen an equivalent sum from the treasury).

This, and subsequent players deaths for me, usually occur when the players overreach significantly.

Oddly, based on other experiences with law enforcement difficulties for mid-level characters (a group of 7th level characters stole an airship in an Eberron campaign I was running) I can't really understand why Roy and (especially) Belkar didn't cut through the police when being arrested for a bar fight and run away (as Haley did with some ease in the palace). They're adventurers, after all. Extreme violence should be Plan B all the time (right after running away).

[Hawriel]

Has anyone else felt the "I just killed a PC and I liked it" reaction? I'd also like to hear stories.

Yes oh yes . Congratulations keep up the good work! The first time I killed a PC I didnt stop and just one. Eight characters entered a room 2 walked out.

It was a 5x5 square room (2nd ed so they are 10 foot) with one door and four iron statues in each corner. In the center a pedistal with a magic gem sitting on it. There was a portcullis invalved too.

[Vknight]

Irony being how it is my first PC kill was from a Crit pinning the halfling to a wall with a ballista.

The rest have all been either TPK's or never enough. All brought on by things belonging in the Darwin Awards thread.

[Rankar]

Irony being how it is my first PC kill was from a Crit pinning the halfling to a wall with a ballista.

That is beautiful on so many levels.

I almost got my second a few days ago with 1 long term player, 2 players who'd been in a few sessions, and 2 absolute greenhorns. Usually I roll behind a screen so I can fudge rolls if I feel its appropriate, but with a skeletal centaur charging with a lance I critted and confirmed where everyone saw. If the Barbarian hadn't been raging, he'd have been at -4. He was also standing next to a nasty abomination that would've needed to roll a 5 to hit him with one of his attacks. I decided not to kill him (teaching session) but it would have been a second kill. That crit also brought the fear to the new players who'd been feeling bored with the game and became far more interested for the last 2 encounters than they had the previous 2.

Killing PCs: a healthy form of entertainment when used in moderation. Side effects include: power trips, losing players, causing people to cry, yelling, instilling fear in those you have power over, and insomnia. Remember: killing PCs isn't right for everyone. Ask your doctor if killing PCs is right for you.

[Hyde]

I couldn't tell you, I've killed... several hundred PCs by now.

Maybe the first kill was... maybe a mind flayer? I think it might have been my half-fiendish mindflayer.

You can imagine the exact details of that.


These days I tend not to kill characters if I can help it- I try to run a heavy story-driven campaign that involves the characters at a personal level. Killing them off really complicates that.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I've been DMing for almost a year and still haven't killed a PC, though I did almost take out a player's pseudodragon familiar once.

The familiar made the mistake of being in the blast area for a red dragon's breath weapon and failed its save. Even with improved evasion, the familiar should have died. Being a softy (and having put a fair bit of work into coming up with a way the wizard could get a pseudodragon early) I declared that it was at -9 HP and that someone would need to get there with a heal check or a cure spell within one round. In story, the pseudodragon's survival may or may not have been a case of divine intervention. (It still isn't clear.)

A couple PCs dropped in the same fight, but none ever actually went below -3 or so.

[Knaight]

I don't remember what my first kill as a GM was, though there have been a few - almost all of which were due to blatant player stupidity (e.g. attacking people who just said they were allies on account of species, while heavily outnumbered). That said, there have also been a lot of friendly fire incidents, to the point where I have players who have killed the characters of a specific other player* more times than I have killed PCs in total.

[Jay R]

On the old Gunsmoke TV show, Marshal Dillon once said, "I don't hang people. The law does."

Similarly, I don't kill people; the game does.

I avoid DMs who enjoy killing people as much as I avoid DMs that will warp the game to prevent it. The DM's job is to rule honestly and fairly.

[kyoryu]

On the old Gunsmoke TV show, Marshal Dillon once said, "I don't hang people. The law does."

Similarly, I don't kill people; the game does.

I avoid DMs who enjoy killing people as much as I avoid DMs that will warp the game to prevent it. The DM's job is to rule honestly and fairly.

We need a "Like" button.