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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

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    Aug 2007

    Default MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First 4 Posts)

    WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
    Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
    Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for


    ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
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    This thread has, over the last 170 pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous three) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first four posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.

    • For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
    • For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
    • To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
    • For other analysis, check section 4
    


    Section 1: General Information
    Section 1a: Directly from Rich
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    Rich's Words
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs c.368
    So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]
    I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
    That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
    I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in Don't Split the Party
    [O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.
    Notes:
    • Strip 100 is copyrighted 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
    • What is probably the most common misconception about Rich's words in this thread is the following: "It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.

    Published Canon
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    Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
    Quote Originally Posted by SBGH, SoD
    Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
    Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
    Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
    Jenkins: "Indeed!"
    Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
    Jenkins: "Quite!"
    Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
    Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:
    Quote Originally Posted by Circus Public, SoD
    Human male: "Oh my gods..."
    Human Male: "It's horrible!"
    Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
    Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
    Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
    Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!"
    Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
    Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
    Rest of the public:
    3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look:
    1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
    1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
    2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed
    RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:
    Quote Originally Posted by RedCloak, SoD, pg. 88
    I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.
    Xykon's First look at MitD:
    Quote Originally Posted by Xykon, SoD
    "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"
    Nature of the darkness around MitD:
    Quote Originally Posted by NCftPB, pg. 194a
    Xykon: Did you see him yet?
    RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?


    Section 1b: Other Info
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    Legal Issues
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    Many ideas proposed in this thread have been the Intellectual Property (IP) of major multinationals. As such, all such ideas have been grouped in section 3c, "copyright ideas". The use of any of these ideas for MitD could potential land Rich Burlew into a heap of trouble, but there are provisions for this in copyright law, under fair use. However, it is likely that fair use cannot be applied to MitD:

    If you go to the page on fair use in the wikipedia, it tells of four factors all of which must be included to consider a use of copyright fair use. The first is "purpose and character" and, broadly, says that the parody must be of the copyrighted work, and not of something else - that you may use barbie dolls to parody barbie culture, but not use a photo to parody the US culture in general is the example. MitD might be a parody of D&D, since the comic itself is, but I believe we can all agree that it is not parodying either pokemon or FF or any other work. Indeed, MitD hardly parodies anything.

    The second factor is nature of the copied work. Not being an IP lawyer, I don't understand it fully, but seems to say the copyright holder has a worse chance at retaining copyright if the original work is non-fiction. Since every proposal discussed here is fictional, this is of little relevance - e.g. Square Enix obviously has copyright over any and all of their unique creations, there is no "public interest" in making, say, FF's Black Mages belong to the public domain.

    The third factor is amount and substantiality. Since MitD would be a very small part of the original work, this is the only grounds in which Rich might have solid grounding. Recent developments in copyright law, however, have made this target smaller and smaller. Notice that Rich was worried about even single-panel use of some other cartoonists' IP property in the last Dragon Magazine comic.

    The fourth factor is effect upon work's value. The important thing here is that the copyright holder need only demonstrate that "such uses in general, if widespread, would harm the potential market of the original". For example, in the case of Final Fantasy's black mage, that its presence in webcomics could potentially harm Square Enix's own plans for a webcomic down the line. This is a very wide allegation, that Rich could not defend against - people might get tired of having FF Black Mages as characters in comics. (Note that parody and criticism are specifically singled out in this category as valid uses, and that MitD is neither).

    Finally, outside of the actual law basis, there is one last consideration, that I suspect is at the forefront of Rich's mind when dealing with copyright issues: what is known as the "chilling effects" (scroll down to 'Fair use as a defense'), which comes down to: if accused of copyright violation, it is the defendant (i.e. the person reusing a copyright, i.e. Rich) that has the burden of proof. Square Enix only has to send a lawyer to say before the judge "copyright violation", and Rich would then have to prove it is not. This is almost unsurmountable for an individual that is not in extremely firm ground, and Rich is nowhere near that.

    So, in conclusion (and tl;dr): unless an IP lawyer tells us otherwise, this thread will consider any copyrighted creatures, where that copyright is held by a major company, out of bounds.

    Please note that at no point has an IP lawyer commented on this issue, and as such it may be wrong.

    The Escape
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    • It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges.
    • Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subejcts of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here and here, and also here we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic Teleport, even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
      • It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is, however, no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box or MitD, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring that is not present on either.
      • Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
      • Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
    • Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window" opening, but not always.
      • It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
    • Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
    • Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
    • Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
    • The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)


    The Tower Scene
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    It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.


    Section 1c: Useful Links
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    Version History
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    1.0 Up to date to previous thread
    1.2 Up to date to end of page 10
    1.4 Up to date to end of page 20
    1.6 Up to date to end of page 30
    1.7 Up to date to end of page 37
    1.8 Up to date to end of page 41
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-01-24 at 11:12 AM.
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Section 2: MitD
    Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
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    Age
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    MitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

    Appearance
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    MitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1b SoD Cannon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".

    Body
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    RedCloak suggest that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)

    Diet
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    MitD is almost constantly hungry, thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
    Take into account:
    • He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate can't be that refined", dibs on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
    • He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here).
    • He feels weird to eat babies (including veal), but not adults.
    • He has eaten scrabble tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)

    Gender
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    MitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls him "a good man"

    Head
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    • Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other.
    • Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
    • Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD).


    Limbs
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    MitD has got stomping ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. He also leaves tracks, which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker). The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

    Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

    Maturity
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    MitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
    Take into account:
    • He is over 30 years old (see Age)
    • He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
    • Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.

    Personal Odor
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    MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesnt' affect the public until after he is lighted up.

    Size
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    Since his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this size, and under this umbrella. This makes him human-sized or large.
    Take into account:
    • Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large faeries)
    • MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
    • He's probably taller than a kobold:
      Quote Originally Posted by War and XPs c.368
      Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
      BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
      MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
    • If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)
    • RedCloak was able to lift him and his box onto a wagon in SoD
      • Due to RedCloak's likely build (spell-oriented cleric), this can be disregarded as a clue, since it is entirely possible that RC isn't strong enough to lift even the empty box, never mind MitD's weight inside (unless MitD is buoyant).

    Sleep
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    MitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).


    Section 2b: Abilities
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    Attack
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    MitD attempts to "hit as lightly as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
    Take into Account:
    • If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
    • See here a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


    Defences
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    MitD did not notice 5 attacks from Belkar and feels tickles when attacked by Miko.
    Take into Account:
    • It could indicate piercing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
    • He got a paper cut from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
    • Miko believes he has DR
    • RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

    Earth Cracking
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    MitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
    Suggestions:
    • Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
    • Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense.

    Knowledge
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    Even though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
    • O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
    • His ability to tell that a ritual was only the second half of a whole
    • He admits he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
    • If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition

    O'Chul's Escape
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    We know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape.
    Suggestions:
    • Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
    • Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
    • Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
    • See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

    Take into Account:
    • Difficulties with the teleportation spell can be waved away by Plot Requirement, or by suggesting MitD's box has a Dimensional Anchor (which can be read to not stop the spell, only the caster). Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
    • It has been pointed out that if it where a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not a spell-like ability or supernatural ability). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
    • Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

    Psionics
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    It has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
    However:
    • MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
    • RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
      • If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
    • The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
    • MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
    • The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers in the same way

    Rain
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    It has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain to help O'Chul rest

    Raising undead
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    MitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead, but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.

    Speech
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    the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)
    • This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
    • Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
    • Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

    Shout
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    MitD can shout loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.

    Summoning Demon Roaches
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    MitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.


    Section 2c: Other Characteristics
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    Categories
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    MitD cannot belong to any of the following:
    - NOT a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
    - NOT Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
    - NOT Elemental (has a body)
    - NOT Ooze (has a body)
    - NOT Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
    - NOT Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)

    Challenge Rating
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    Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.

    Darkness
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    As per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind)

    Drawing Clues
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    Even though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently

    Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia

    Environment
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    The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.

    Family
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    MitD remembers his dad "sort of" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
    Considerations:
    • MitD could have been "adopted" by another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment
    • MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
    • MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
    • MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

    Knowledge of MitD
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    MitD is very difficult to identify. Only the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters and RedCloak (see Section 1a) have claimed to know what he is, while what looks like a wizard in the circus audience admitted he'd never seen anything like it. MitD believes Xykon also knows what he is.
    • It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.

    Species
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    MitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.

    Mental Resistance
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    In SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.


    Section 2d: Augmentation
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    A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed.

    Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
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    A whole range of possibilities, it suggests MitD is a stack of Templates rather than a specific monster type.
    Pros: Can be templated to have:
    • Teleportation
    • Psionics
    • Earthquake
    • Unnerving Gaze

    Cons:
    • No Wish template
    • Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
    • Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these"
    • No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents

    Proposed combinations:

    Pimp my Tarrasque
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    Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:


    Class Levels
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    Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
    Cons:
    • Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
    • It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
    • It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

    Reincarnation
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    This idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
    Cons:
    • Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible

    Psychic
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    From a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

    Cons:
    • Probably violates the "can be guessed/figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psichic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics

    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-01-11 at 03:15 PM.
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Aug 2007

    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Section 3: Proposed Ideas
    Section 3a: Forerunners
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    This category groups ideas that fit the "big 3" scenes of MitD: the circus scene (particularly the requirement to both be a circus act where nothing is done, and the varied response from the public), the tower scene (that is, the ability to punch a person and a horse through a wall when trying to "hit light") and the escape scene (i.e. teleportation of O'Chul and V). The proposals may still have other objections (such as size problems, or simply that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D), but must NOT belong to the discarded categories (see Section 2c: Categories), unless they are somehow exceptional (e.g. an undead that eats burgers and sleeps).


    Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)
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    Pros:
    • Huge Strength
    • Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
    • Ugly (with high Charisma)

    Cons:
    • Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
    • Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
    • Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

    Hagunemnon (Protean) (SRD or ELH 196)
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    Pros:
    • Great strength (53)
    • teleportation (plane shift) abilities
    • Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into Umbral Blot, which includes greater teleport
    • As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
    • adequate size
    • his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
    • Has no languages, thus being surprising it can talk.
    • Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.

    Cons:
    • Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
    • it's powers are psionic-based (see 2b Psionics).
    • It's constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)

    Neothelid (SRD or XPH 204)
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    Pros:
    • Fairly high strength (30)
    • Psionic Teleport at will
    • Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
    • Heavy eating
    • Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
    • Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V

    Cons:
    • Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
    • Defences not that great
    • No eyes
    • Gargantuan

    Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph
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    Pros:
    • Can use a teraport to teleport
    • Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
    • Looks like a pile of poo
    • Endearing and adorable
    • Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
    • Famous for his unbridled appetite.
    • Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler

    Cons:
    • Rich probably wouldn't use a SF character from another comic in his fantasy comic.


    Slaad (ELH 217)
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    White/Black slaads only.
    Pros:
    • Very strong, epic defences
    • Can teleport others
    • Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
    • Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
    • White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.

    Cons:
    • Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
    • MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
    • It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
      • Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
    • Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk. Unless, that is, slaads usually talk like this (but this is probably Rule of Funny)
    • It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


    Uvuudaum
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    Pros:
    • greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
    • very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
    • large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
    • Large size, so fits in the box (not so much under the umbrella)
    • Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
    • A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

    Cons:
    • Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
    • His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.



    Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
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    These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
    Tarrasque (SRD or MM 240)
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    Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

    Snarl jr
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    Probably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite, nor need to sleep.

    Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".

    Grue
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    Can challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.

    Pun-Pun & Family
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    Pun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold


    Section 3c: Copyrighted Ideas
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    All ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 1b Legal Issues)

    Boggart (from Harry Potter)
    Diawolf
    Domo-kun
    FF Black Mage
    FF Red Mage
    Godzilla & pals
    Gozer (Ghostbusters)
    Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
    Heffalump
    Kirby
    Snorlax
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    A great fit, since "They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes", is known for its huge appetite and its sleeping. It also grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11''). Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.

    Shadow (from Babylon 5)
    Skull (from PvP)
    Tonberri
    Vatch (from Witches of Karres)
    Vorlon (from Babylon 5)
    Weeping Angel (from Dr. Who)
    Yoshi
    Q (from Star Trek)

    Section 3d: Proposed ideas
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    Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all 3 major MitD scenes (circus; tower; escape. See 3a)

    Anaxim (SRD or ELH 158)
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    Construct, no teleportation.

    Atropal (SRD or ELH 159)
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    Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.

    Barghest (SRD or MM 22)
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    Pros:
    • Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference)
    • Greater Barghest has dimension door

    Cons:
    • Not really all that strong, (max 20)
    • No earthquake ability
    • Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
    • can speak (but not in common)


    Brachyurus (SRD or ELH 170)
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    Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape

    Braxat (MM2 37)
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    Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.

    Brood Keeper (MM3)
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    Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough.

    Centaur (SRD or MM 32)
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    Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.

    Chi You
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    Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.

    Coeurl
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    CR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape

    Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)
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    Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast

    Cuatl
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    Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough), since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC

    Dao (MoP 172)
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    aka "earth genie". Pros:
    • Can grant wishes
    • Can cast earthquake
    • Has a "shove" ability to push enemies

    Cons:
    • Unsurprising it can talk
    • CR6, little strength, no defences
    • Not unusually ugly
    • Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"

    Disenchanter
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    Not strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.

    Displacer Beast (MM 60)
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    Can't explain the escape, not strong enough

    Dragon (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)
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    Pros:
    • Decent defences
    • they like to eat and sleep

    Cons:
    • They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
    • They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

    Draknor
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    Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.

    Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
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    Pros:
    • Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
    • Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
    • Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here for an explanation)

    Cons:
    • Immune to mind-affecting effects
    • Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
    • Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
    • Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


    Earth Elemental (SRD or MM 97)
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    Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead

    Efreet
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    Not powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology

    Enveloper (1e FF)
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    Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance.

    Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)
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    Pros:
    • Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
    • Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
    • The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"

    Cons:
    • Can't explain the escape scene
    • Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22

    Epic Dragon (SRD or ELH 181)
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    Pros:
    • Have access to Wish
    • Very strong
    • Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

    Cons:
    • They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
    • Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
    • They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

    Fiendwurm (MM2 99)
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    strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.

    Formian Myrmarch
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    Not strong enough to explain the tower scene

    Genie/Djinn (SRD or MM 114)
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    while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD

    Ghour
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    Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.

    Gibbering Orb (SRD or ELH 191)
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    Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".

    Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)
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    Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH

    Glabrezu (SRD or MM 43)
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    Pros:
    • Access to wish
    • Fairly powerful

    Cons:
    • Too big
    • No parent
    • Unlikely to change morality (since it is a denizen of a morality plane)
    • Low CR

    Goristro
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    Huge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.

    Gozilla (& family)
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    Too big, unclear how they account for the escape. Copyright issues possible

    Gray Render (SRD or MM 138)
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    Too many eyes, and unclear how it accounts for the escape.

    Grendel
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    Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength, defences, earthquake ability.

    Grey Slaad (MM 231)
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    can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength

    Guardinal, Leonal
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    Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.

    Gug (CoC)
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    (From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.

    Ha-Naga (SRD or ELH 195)
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    Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being gargantuan, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Psionic powers could explain the earthquake, but not the tower scene.

    Half-Giant (SRD or XPH 200)
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    Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accoutns for circus scene and the escape.

    Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)
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    Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)

    Hoary Hunter (SRD or ELH 197)
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    Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions

    Illurien (MM5)
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    Female, Insufficient strength

    Incubus
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    Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene

    Jaberwock
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    Difficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jaberwocky is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these".

    King-Kong descendant
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    Problem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.

    Infernal (SRD or ELH 164)
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    Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.

    Lamassu, Celestial
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    Not strong enough, can cast cleric spells.

    Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)
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    Pros:
    • Yellow eyes
    • Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
    • Damage reduction
    • Earthquake AND a powerful roar
    • Plane Shift

    Cons:
    • plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
    • Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
    • As a young adult, it is not powerful enough

    Marut
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    Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane

    Nabassu (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)
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    Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.

    Neh-Thalggu (SRD or ELH 206)
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    incorporeal

    Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)
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    Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).

    Nessie the Loch Ness Monster
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    Too big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land

    Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)
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    Pros:
    • Fairly strong
    • spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
    • Dimension door
    • Can't talk

    Cons:
    • Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
    • Red eyes
    • Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

    Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)
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    undead

    Paizo Golem
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    Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100

    Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)
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    Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.

    Pit Fiend (SRD or MM 57)
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    Pros:
    • Strong, good defences
    • Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
    • Access to Wish

    Cons:
    • Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here, it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
    • It is not surprising it can talk.
    • It can reanimate the dead
    • Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
    • Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

    Planetar Angel (SRD or MM 11)
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    Has cleric levels

    Psammead
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    Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.

    Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)
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    Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.

    SCP-682
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    Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.

    Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
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    Pros:
    • It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
    • Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
    • It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
    • It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....

    Cons:
    • Not incredibly strong
    • Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

    Shedu, Greater (FF)
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    Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.

    Shoggoth (CoC)
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    Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.

    Siabrie
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    Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.

    Snark
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    Cannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)

    Solar (SRD or MM 12)
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    Cons:
    • Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
    • It is not surprising it can talk.
    • It can reanimate the dead

    Sphinx (SRD or MM 232)
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    Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.

    Starspawn (aka Son of Cthulhu)
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    Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.

    Sun Wukong
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    Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.

    Titan (SRD or MM 242)
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    Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
    Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.

    Troll
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    Not strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).

    Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)
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    Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.

    Two-headed Cyclops
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    Two heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.

    Ultroloth
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    Demonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape

    Uluu Thalongh
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    Not surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.

    Umpleby (1st ed FF)
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    Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.

    Vasuthant (MM3 182)
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    Undead. Can't explain the escape

    Vermiurge (SRD or ELH 226)
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    revolting sight, but can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.

    Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)
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    Construct

    Wendigo (FF 186)
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    Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.

    Wild Things
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    Cannot explain the escape

    Wumpus
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    Doesn't explain the escape.

    Ygramul
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    Can teleport, but the teleported person dies an hour after the teleportation. Unclear of his strength.

    Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)
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    Can't explain the escape

    Zodar (FF 199)
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    Pros:
    • Very strong
    • Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
    • Human-sized
    • Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.

    Cons:
    • Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
    • The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.


    Section 3e: Joke Ideas
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    • Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts?
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      Must be a Rock
    • The most dangerous box ever:
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    • The fearsome Gazebo
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      HotAndCold explained:
      -A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
      -It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
      -Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
      -Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
      -It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
      -I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
      -The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
    • A Fanboy
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      Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

      We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.

    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-01-24 at 11:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Section 4: Appendices

    This space is for discussion of topics only tangentially related to MitD, but that nevertheless keep coming up

    Section 4a: MitD's Alignment
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    The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

    This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match. As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

    The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant, Round 4 Commentary
    It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant, Round 7 Commentary
    The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).
    From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:

    {TABLE]Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils|Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons|Lawful Good: Archons
    Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons|True Neutral: Rilmani|Neutral Good: Guardinals
    Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons|Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi|Chaotic Good: Eladrin[/TABLE]


    Section 4b: MitD's Scores
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    It has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

    However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).

    Section 4c: The Gates
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    MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the discarded idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-01-26 at 07:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    The Dream Larva is listed in between E and F in the Proposed Ideas section. Also, the Gazebo link is broken. Will this do?
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son View Post
    The Dream Larva is listed in between E and F in the Proposed Ideas section. Also, the Gazebo link is broken. Will this do?
    Fixed. Thanks. As always, willing to listen to criticism, suggestions, etc. Now that I have plenty of space, I am even considering adding a few extra sections (maybe something on morality/alignment, particularly as it affects both MitD and planar denizen suggestions).

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    I really like the new thread name. Morality / Outlook sounds a good idea.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    A small thought occurred, when reading the age section; Since the MitD hasn't notably developed in power over the corse of the strip, couldn't we eliminate monsters with age categories of less than 30 years each?

    Or perhaps that could be used as a (poor) explanation for developing the "Escape" ability?

    Just thinking aloud here!
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Now that I have plenty of space, I am even considering adding a few extra sections
    Just my two cents, but I would be careful adding to much to the first post(s), it is already a very long read and adding anything more may prevent people from reading it through before posting.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine Crow View Post
    Just my two cents, but I would be careful adding to much to the first post(s), it is already a very long read and adding anything more may prevent people from reading it through before posting.
    I know. It's a difficult balance to hit. The biggest problem is that, if you know how the first post works, there is no need to read everything, only those things that affect your idea. Of course, anyone just arriving to the thread won't know how the first post works. And it could get silly if I make a guide to the thread guide. I could expand the "newcomers read" part in that general direction, though (explaining, say, how the different sections are relevant: "if you want to see if your idea has been proposed already, check section 3!" "If you want to see what we've figured out about MitD, go to section 2!" "If you want to see the more complex analysis of MitD, visit section 1").

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I know. It's a difficult balance to hit. The biggest problem is that, if you know how the first post works, there is no need to read everything, only those things that affect your idea. Of course, anyone just arriving to the thread won't know how the first post works. And it could get silly if I make a guide to the thread guide. I could expand the "newcomers read" part in that general direction, though (explaining, say, how the different sections are relevant: "if you want to see if your idea has been proposed already, check section 3!" "If you want to see what we've figured out about MitD, go to section 2!" "If you want to see the more complex analysis of MitD, visit section 1").

    Grey Wolf
    That sounds like a good idea, if people are scared off by the size of the first couple of posts it's still likely that they'll at least read that part.
    Last edited by Silver Swift; 2011-03-06 at 04:19 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    talking about the MitD, i recall one thing

    In the jungle scene, when it is captured, i remember the Mitd said something along the lines of "will you free me, please?
    everyone says i should ask please"

    thus implying he has spoken numerous times (and probably learned how to speak, differently from other members of its kind) with other beings which speak Common...
    Quote Originally Posted by actual quote from this forum
    So yeah. your wrong.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Stuff
    You could put a new section in the 'reserved' post that has all the new things for this edition of the thread (the general gist or revelations of the previous thread), so all the information remains, but the newest things are placed out-of-order. summed up, but still numbered properly. Then when you make a new thread merge them in.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lothos View Post
    I really like the new thread name.
    I strongly suspect that it will be the only useful suggestion I ever make in the thread as well.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    talking about the MitD, i recall one thing

    In the jungle scene, when it is captured, i remember the Mitd said something along the lines of "will you free me, please?
    everyone says i should ask please"

    thus implying he has spoken numerous times (and probably learned how to speak, differently from other members of its kind) with other beings which speak Common...
    this is an excellent point
    it is also possible that one of its parents spoke with humans numerous times
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    this is an excellent point
    it is also possible that one of its parents spoke with humans numerous times
    You seem to be assuming MitD had two or more parents.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    talking about the MitD, i recall one thing

    In the jungle scene, when it is captured, i remember the Mitd said something along the lines of "will you free me, please?
    everyone says i should ask please"

    thus implying he has spoken numerous times (and probably learned how to speak, differently from other members of its kind) with other beings which speak Common...
    You would have done well to check the actual cannon. Unfortunately, the real thing doesn't actually match your memory:

    Quote Originally Posted by MitD, SoD pg. 50
    Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say "please" and "thank you" and "sorry about the smell"
    Without the word you added ("everyone"), the quote does not imply "other beings". It easily fits being told by one single being, to whit, his father-figure. Yes, he has spoken before (unsurprising), and it doesn't imply anything else. We know that his species is unlikely to speak due to the hunters' reaction, not because of this quote, and we already know it had a father. Eveything else, while plausible, is certainly not based on the quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    this is an excellent point
    it is also possible that one of its parents spoke with humans numerous times
    This is completely unsupported. You neither know that MitD had two parents, nor that they ever spoke to anyone other than MitD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Minor inconsequential note: the two goblins who are unimpressed by MitD at the circus scene, quoted in section 1a, are not Redcloak and his brother Right-Eye, but Right-Eye and his oldest son. The other two goblins are his younger children.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Hello fellow MitD scholars,

    I just wanted to point out that when I mentioned the Wild Things as a possibility in the previous thread, I forgot to add that the reason why I did it was because while it is never really determine what shape they have or what they can do/what abilities they have, the always-constant trait is the eyes. Terrible yellow eyes. Possibly inconsequential note as well.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    I'm still not convinced it can't be a Godzilla/Monster Island beastie. One of my favorite mindless time waster games is Zinga's Treasure Isle. There are several islands with the Big, Rubber Suit monsters, and specifically a Godzilla, Ghidora and Mothra clones, as well as the miniature twins in a seashell. If it's legal for them, it should be legal for Rich as well.

    Minya/Minilla is Godzilla's son, and did several of the things the MitD has done, including Wishing the little boy back to Tokyo. While that specific monster is a bit obscure, I think he is a bit more "reachable" to non-D&D players.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    I'm still not convinced it can't be a Godzilla/Monster Island beastie. One of my favorite mindless time waster games is Zinga's Treasure Isle. There are several islands with the Big, Rubber Suit monsters, and specifically a Godzilla, Ghidora and Mothra clones, as well as the miniature twins in a seashell. If it's legal for them, it should be legal for Rich as well.

    Minya/Minilla is Godzilla's son, and did several of the things the MitD has done, including Wishing the little boy back to Tokyo. While that specific monster is a bit obscure, I think he is a bit more "reachable" to non-D&D players.
    It also happens to be 13-18 meters tall (42 - 59 feet, for metric-impaired), and massing at about 2000 tons. And apart from your word on the teleportation, I can't find that power assigned to it.

    Like the Tarrasque, it is either too big, or too weak. You can't have a human-sized Godzilla or descendent and still punch people through walls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Without the word you added ("everyone"), the quote does not imply "other beings". It easily fits being told by one single being, to whit, his father-figure. Yes, he has spoken before (unsurprising), and it doesn't imply anything else. We know that his species is unlikely to speak due to the hunters' reaction, not because of this quote, and we already know it had a father. Everything else, while plausible, is certainly not based on the quote.
    Well, it does imply a little. I hadn't thought about it before, but this means that MitD had previously been in contact with someone besides Captain Bigeatsalot, the theoretical specimen that fit the qualities mentioned in +1 BFF but having no other defining characteristics such as sentience.

    Even if we take into account that Bigeatsalot and Tutor McManners are likely different people and that neither of them were actual blood relatives anyway, it still means that someone had been hanging around and cared at least enough to tell him what was and was not polite. He could have gotten the same criticism from the circus, or Redcloak, or even the hunters, but this was before any of that.

    Of course, McManners was probably that one halfling from the Order of the Scribble or something, making this interesting to the plot but in no way relevant to what MitD is.

    ...so, never mind, I guess?
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    I still do not see how it is implied that Captain Bigeatsalot and Tutor McManners are different people. Certainly it would seem natural that a parent imparts these things on his progeny as part of its upbringing. There is simply no need to assume that a third entity took take part in this.

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It also happens to be 13-18 meters tall (42 - 59 feet, for metric-impaired), and massing at about 2000 tons. And apart from your word on the teleportation, I can't find that power assigned to it.

    Like the Tarrasque, it is either too big, or too weak. You can't have a human-sized Godzilla or descendent and still punch people through walls.

    Grey Wolf
    Well... Look at the Wiki again. Under powers it does list the ability to change size. So 13-18 meters drops down to 2 meters, AND Minya can speak. As for the teleportation? Don't KNOW, I just remember that the little boy Ichiro somehow got to and from Monster Island without using modern technology. And that Minya had SOMETHING to do with it. But is it a D&D authorized spell? Won't know until Redcloak or Xykon drops the spell.

    So, the list:
    Legal? Maybe
    Talks? Yes
    Powerful Father? Yes
    Strong? Yes
    Identifiable to non-D&D players? Yes (Not required, but something I think Rich would want)

    Most of the other items fit, although I have no idea how Minya would know the difference between Arcane and Divine spells.
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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Altough it is unlikely to be Snorlax, since PkMn Gold, you can give objects to your PkMns, one of them is the ESCAPE rope.

    He could habe been just carrying it until the "ESCAPE" time, and that explains why he can't use it again (Is a use-and-discard item)


    But I must ask. Could it be a Cthulhu Mythos monster or primigenian?
    - He is insanely strong,
    - He can be clever altought he is more the "Roar, I eat you" thing; so he could comprehend the "Two parts ritual"
    - Since primigenians are godly creatures, they can teleport (Heck, they could do that Chuck Norris thing about moving the entire Earth just to put themselves exactly where they want to be)
    - Chtulhu has his Starspawn (The whole "Daddy" thing.
    - It has been stated in many games that in Fantasy scenarios, the rules of sanity are a little softer (Nobody loses Sanity Points because Vaarsuvius fly or Xykon being an undead) but that could shake the public, so nobody would descent into madness just for sighting MitD
    - Everybody knows Cthulhu.
    - He isn't trademark. I think that he isn't bound by any evil copyright laws nor restrictions.
    Last edited by Souhiro; 2011-03-09 at 04:31 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    I tend to agree with Souhiro about the possibility that MitD's origins are in the Cthulhu Mythos. Or at least in something very much like it.

    While I am not really convinced that MitD would necessarily be any particular creature from Call of Cthulhu D20 (such as Gug), I find it quite possible that he could be something like Wilbur and his brother from Lovecrafts's "The Dunwich Horror" (actually, being a descendand of Yog-Sothoth [Being of Time and Space] might well explain MitD ability to let O-Chul 'Escape'). MitD could also be a completely new Not-Yet-So-Great-Or-Old-One, but still technically one of the Great Old Ones.

    If this really would be the case, then the rudimentary identity of MitD as kin and kind of the Great Old Ones would allow The Giant both a considerable amout freedom to use MitD's persona plausibly in the story without having to tie him up to cliché, as well as comfortably allowing him to know exactly what the MitD's hidden abilities are when that knowledge is needed, all the while keeping up the mystery and suspension around the Monster. Also, since the archtype of Great Old Ones is fairly well known we could technically guess right about MitD, yet if MitD is but one of those countless beings of infinite shapes and abilities he can be what he already is - entirely of Giant's invention, that is. And all this without the possibilty that MitD would turn out to be some boring, er, made-up creature (but this possibility has been discounted anyway) or the risk that some clever-enough fan would ruin the suspension by deducing and determining MitD's nature up to his individual Hit Points and colour patterns. These facts would make the choice rather ideal for The Giant in regard of spinning the story.
    Last edited by CorvusOmbra; 2011-03-09 at 07:23 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    I think that, whatever is it, It should be a popular monster, something that can be easily recogniced. If it is an obscure monster from an old edition of a nearly forgotten monster compendium, it wouldn't be a joke.

    It would be much a joke if he is a rogue of Int -3 with 200 bags of holding, with tons of scrolls and a ring of +50 in UMD.

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    @ Souhiro & CorvusOmbra: Am I right in deducing that despite this being the first page of the new thread devoted to this subject neither of you bothered to familiarize yourselves with the accumulated knowledge on this subject?

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Souhiro View Post
    Altough it is unlikely to be Snorlax, since PkMn Gold, you can give objects to your PkMns, one of them is the ESCAPE rope.

    He could habe been just carrying it until the "ESCAPE" time, and that explains why he can't use it again (Is a use-and-discard item)


    But I must ask. Could it be a Cthulhu Mythos monster or primigenian?
    - He is insanely strong,
    - He can be clever altought he is more the "Roar, I eat you" thing; so he could comprehend the "Two parts ritual"
    - Since primigenians are godly creatures, they can teleport (Heck, they could do that Chuck Norris thing about moving the entire Earth just to put themselves exactly where they want to be)
    - Chtulhu has his Starspawn (The whole "Daddy" thing.
    - It has been stated in many games that in Fantasy scenarios, the rules of sanity are a little softer (Nobody loses Sanity Points because Vaarsuvius fly or Xykon being an undead) but that could shake the public, so nobody would descent into madness just for sighting MitD
    - Everybody knows Cthulhu.
    - He isn't trademark. I think that he isn't bound by any evil copyright laws nor restrictions.
    starspawn has been suggested, as have several other mythos creatures.

    general points against them that have been raised:

    • Difficulties explaining the escape scene (require psionic mythos creatures. Many are psionic, but the redcloak needing to research psionics issue seems to indicate the MitD is probably NOT psionic),
    • and elements of the circus scene (insanity - D20 mythos insanity is a human/natural animal only phenomenon, but D20 mythos doesn't have D&D style goblins, so hard to tell),
    • and (thinking about it myself) there's a genre issue - so far OotS seems to have kept pretty strictly to fantasy adventure themed creatures & problems. Mythos seems a bit of stretch. Could just as well call MitD a giant Jawa and state that all of the effects are due to his high technology toys - it could work, but really breaks genre.
    Last edited by willdelve4beer; 2011-03-09 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (Please Read the First Post)

    If I may put in my 2 cents, I have a few theories and ideas...

    On the dragon idea, the main hold up is that he would have to be a rather large, old dragon to even reach the str/magic ability., right?

    Just a random shot, but there are plenty of dragons who'd know polymorph/shape change spells, correct? Could be an unusually dumb/short term memory type dragon of sorts who's been shape changed into... something.

    Still, it's unlikely, and speculative on my part


    Another idea... maybe we're just looking into this too hard. We're too busy scanning every single source book, core rule book, expansion, splats, dragon magazine article, etc etc, and comparing their stats... So here's a few alternative theories

    1. the MitD is a "Template Abomination". It's simple enough, slap as many templates as you can onto a homebrew creature. and it gains the powers of others as well. That way, it has the personality of a child, but the powers of epic level encounters. This would also grant it various other physical aspects, such as being horrifying, yet somehow beautiful to people at the same time, or having strange odors.

    2. It's a tribute creature. Come on, this is Rich Burlew work we're talking about people. Not only does the man draw web comics, he's also a game designer, as well as a gamer himself. The guy breaks more 4th walls in his comic than Deadpool does. He's taken breaks from the story line for various tribute strips to one person or another, such as for Gygax and Arneson to pay respects to them when they died. There's often modern day references, cultural ideas, and the occasional current events jab put in there. Perhaps it's simply a tribute to a specific creature Rich has faced in a game, to the DM who used/created it, in a game.

    3. This one is purely just out there for fun (and not at all serious) but the MitD is really:
    Spoiler
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    A Squat from Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000, 2nd edition.(For those who don't know what they are, think Dwaves.... IN SPACE!!!!) And the reason for the magical darkness is to avoid forcing a "Squat Clock" reset. The various powers the MitD shows, are merely futuristic, super high tech weapons which the MitD is ractivating through imagining him doing certain actions (i.e. a mind impulse link to the weapons on his advance tech suit)......

    .... what? Don't look at my message like that. I did say this was just a fun theory. It's designed to be way out there and completely implausible for reason!
    Last edited by Razgriez; 2011-03-09 at 12:50 PM.

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