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    Default 4E races equivalent?

    I was wondering if there are available stats somewhere for the Shardminds and Wilden from 4Ed PHB3 in 3.5 form? Particularly the Shardminds 'cause I would very much like to incorporate them in upcoming Dark Sun game that we're about to play (Shardmind Erudite? Hell yeah ).
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    how about you buy the book.
    or you could just quickly look it up in the book store

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Wildren were in the Planar Handbook.

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by manyslayer View Post
    Wildren were in the Planar Handbook.
    They're not Wilden though. Wildren are beastmen from the Beastlands. Wilden are based on Killoren, from Races of the Wild, as they are both nature-loving plant-people, have a similar look, and have the whole aspects thing going.

    Shardminds didn't exist in 3.5. Even if they did, they wouldn't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun, since their fluff is about a portal to the Far Realm and such things don't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hivedragon View Post
    how about you buy the book.
    or you could just quickly look it up in the book store
    No, you didn't get me: I know they are 4Ed only but my group prefers 3.5/Pathfinder over 4Ed; I just wasn't sure how to transfer them (their racial adjustments) to 3.5 Ed so that they would be compatible with our game.

    I first noticed them here and here and instantly was intrigued by the Wilden and left in awe by the Shardminds.

    I figured that maybe someone already refitted them and I was curious what their racial stats would look like in 3.5, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by manyslayer View Post
    Wildren were in the Planar Handbook.
    Which I don't have and they are not the ones I'm looking for (Wildren =/= Wilden?) but tnx anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    They're not Wilden though. Wildren are beastmen from the Beastlands. Wilden are based on Killoren, from Races of the Wild, as they are both nature-loving plant-people, have a similar look, and have the whole aspects thing going.

    Shardminds didn't exist in 3.5. Even if they did, they wouldn't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun, since their fluff is about a portal to the Far Realm and such things don't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun.
    I meant "Wilden" not "Wildren"; but I'm not primarly interested in them, I'm specificaly curious about the Shardminds.

    I believe they would fit in properly if their fluff was somewhat revised to better suit the Dark Sun setting. As naturally powerful psychics I don't see how would they stand out so much among other creatures of Athas if their culture and the Far Realms part of the story were well incorporated or dropped altogether and replaced with something else (they sound good both as player characters and PC foes). Who knows what wonders the wastelands hide beyond the Tablelands
    Last edited by Thant; 2011-03-07 at 03:37 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Might 4E's take on Dark Sun be doable in 3E?

    The Far Realm might not be all that out of place in such a setting.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Might 4E's take on Dark Sun be doable in 3E?

    The Far Realm might not be all that out of place in such a setting.
    Well yes considering that there are already Illithid on Athas (at least there were some in Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager) and some of barbaric Githyanki are also there. I wouldn't mess around so much with the idea of portals or Gates to the Far Realms considering how Athas is closed to planar travel but with Shardminds it could prove like an interesting plot hook - maybe they finally succeeded in closing all of the Gates (at least on Athas) and now are left without purpose wandering the world, actively hunting the remaining Mind Flayers that were left here after all portals ceased to funciton; or they suddenly awake after a long time spent in psionic hibernation, answering to a call only they could feel - a sign that a something got through to Athas from the Far Realms or is trying to get out...possibilities possibilities

    I just love the Shardminds
    Last edited by Thant; 2011-03-07 at 03:48 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    The 4e Shardmind has some things in common with the 3.5 Psiforged: living constructs adept at playing psionic classes. There's some fluff you need to redo, but mechanically, that's where I'd start.
    Last edited by RebelRogue; 2011-03-07 at 03:51 PM.

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    The 4E Wilden is a straight port of the Killoren from (3.5) Races of the Wild. They're kinda neat, but I've never played one (or seen anyone else play one, for that matter).

    For Shardmind, I agree that Psi-Forged might be a good start.
    Last edited by RTGoodman; 2011-03-07 at 04:23 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.
    this is correct. it would be like putting a warforged in DS. as soon as you were seen people would be trying to pull you apart.

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    Warforged: Fine, fine. I'll go burn down the church instead. I bet the screams of the monks will carry farther than the children's anyway, judging on their singing capacity.

    Paladin: I've got a better idea. You shut up and we'll send the rogue around back >.<

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Then just have him be made of obsidian. It's valuable, yes, but relatively common. (As a bonus, it's known in the DS canon as being magically/psionically resonant.)
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    And you get to be black.

    ...

    Kids love black, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    They're not Wilden though. Wildren are beastmen from the Beastlands. Wilden are based on Killoren, from Races of the Wild, as they are both nature-loving plant-people, have a similar look, and have the whole aspects thing going.

    Shardminds didn't exist in 3.5. Even if they did, they wouldn't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun, since their fluff is about a portal to the Far Realm and such things don't exist in 3.5 Dark Sun.
    Sorry, my bad. Misread it with the "r". Hadn't seen the 4E races as I bought the initial books, read it, tried it, and kept right on with 3.5.

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    I agree that you can probably find something in various psionic or setting books somewhere, but what kind of level adjuster were you looking for.

    for a 0 level adjuster i'd start with something like
    +2 mental stat (probably int), -2 physical (dex?) stat,
    darkvision, living construct(same traits as warforged)
    crystaline (takes 1.5x damage from sonic)
    dr 2/bludgeon
    # Naturally Psionic:(gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class)

    dr 2/bludgeon may be overpowered at low levels, and underpowered after about level 5... just what I came up with in 5 mins.

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.
    Crystal isn't nearly as rare as metal, but it's usually not useful in terms of weapons. An Athasian shardmind would probably be made out of obsidian; I'd still go with a warforged as a "base", then tweak in a few ways to make it work.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Isn't crystal, while not as rare as metal, still pretty rare in Dark Sun? In a world where the players are scrambling to get anything better than bronze weapons, it seems a little odd to allow players made out of crystal.
    In our current campaign, one of the characters is actually a paladin of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart from FR that somehow got planeshifted to Dark Sun (included in his backstory but never completely revealed as for how it actually happened) with all of his starting equipment (e.g. metal longsword and metal half-plate and other "priceless" stuff) and materialized in the center of the elven market in Balic...ironicly his patron deity was also Tyr

    Needless to say that after the starting confusion and awe, there was loads of fun (the population mistook him for a divine herald of some sort) and some pretty heavy roleplaying was involved

    I like the idea of using the Psiforged as a starting point and for reference but I would prefer to make the Shardminds a bit more special instead of just "cloning" the former (I think Bagelz has the most of it right). The obsidian part I like (sounds somewhat natural) but I guess a smaller amount of the Shardmind population could come in other crystal variates...
    Last edited by Thant; 2011-03-07 at 08:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sipex View Post
    And you get to be black.

    ...

    Kids love black, right?
    Are you referring to Pokemon Black? Lolz
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    I like the idea of using the Psiforged as a starting point and for reference but I would prefer to make the Shardminds a bit more special instead of just "cloning" the former (I think Bagelz has the most of it right). The obsidian part I like (sounds somewhat natural) but I guess a smaller amount of the Shardmind population could come in other crystal variates...
    Ok, start with this question, then:

    What are shardminds? Are they undead spirits animating collections of rock and sand (I'd shy away from saying "crystal" specifically)? Are they some natural function of Athas... an incarnate nature spirit, a fallen angel of lost deities (who never existed... even gods of Necromancy are too cheery for Dark "When do we get to eat the half-giant" Sun)? Or are they simply a weird "natural" race?

    Once you figure out what they are, you can start taking steps towards knowing how they work. The idea to start with Warforged stems from the idea that they're non-organic, maybe even non-life. Using the "living construct" rules keep them playable, without drowning in new rules. If you want them to be unique, think about what you can take away from Warforged so you can add to Shardminds.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    What are shardminds? Are they undead spirits animating collections of rock and sand (I'd shy away from saying "crystal" specifically)? Are they some natural function of Athas... an incarnate nature spirit, a fallen angel of lost deities (who never existed... even gods of Necromancy are too cheery for Dark "When do we get to eat the half-giant" Sun)? Or are they simply a weird "natural" race?
    If I were doing it, I'd say that they're a race of living constructs made of sand, stone, and obsidian brought to life by the power of the Pristine Tower. There's canon evidence that the magic of the Tower can turn normal beings into crazy new race kinda things, too, so you could go that route.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    If I were doing it, I'd say that they're a race of living constructs made of sand, stone, and obsidian brought to life by the power of the Pristine Tower. There's canon evidence that the magic of the Tower can turn normal beings into crazy new race kinda things, too, so you could go that route.
    Pristine Tower! That was it! Could NOT remember its name.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Just like to chime in on the subject of crystal being very desireable on Athas;

    So, you have a theoretical race who are made from the kind of resource that makes every single person they meet start sizing up whether they could get some friends together to successfully gank them and break them down for money and toys...

    Meaning that more classical Shardminds would be basically hunted and pursued everywhere they went, generally have the whole world out to kill them, and likely have no recognised value as people, in society...

    What, that's too gritty a premise for Dark Sun now?

    I think it works perfectly. You're made of money. No-one's really sure, or really cares what you are or where you came from. If they realise what you are, they'll reach for the sledgehammer to snap your fingers off rather than start researching your origin. Only the Ancient sages of the Shardmind people even have the faintest idea of their (likely foul and/or apocalyptical?) origin, scattered as they are to the deepest, most inhospitable corners of the world to escape persecution.
    Yada yada yada. I'd go with something like that, personally.
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2011-03-09 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Pristine Tower! That was it! Could NOT remember its name.
    Yeah, I had to do some pretty precise Googling to find it. (Note: It's not called the Dark Tower, as much as I thought that was it. ) Apparently it's almost never mentioned except the section of the Prism Pentad that it's in.


    @Tiki: Of course, it's mostly humans that would want to hunt you for crystal. I don't think the Kreen really care about it, or the Halflings either. They could survive just fine in the Wastes without interaction with the "civilized" species.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    So, you have a theoretical race who are made from the kind of resource that makes every single person they meet start sizing up whether they could get some friends together to successfully gank them and break them down for money and toys...
    Truthfully, though, that's pretty much EVERYONE. You're all made of meat (yummy, nutritious) and bone (aka "your legs are clubs still in the factory wrapper"). Heck, in 2e, thri-kreen had to specifically resist the urge to eat elves, and halflings ate everybody.


    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    @Tiki: Of course, it's mostly humans that would want to hunt you for crystal. I don't think the Kreen really care about it, or the Halflings either. They could survive just fine in the Wastes without interaction with the "civilized" species.
    Thri-kreen, in earlier editions, could make crystal weapons without needing to gank shardminds.

    Incidentally, that may be where you'd find a lot of shardminds... living with thri-kreen. They're not food. They're not competitors for food. And they don't sleep.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    I was wondering about something: suppose a Dvati pair takes the wild/hidden talent feat, and both start advancing in Erudite or Telepath. Would they share their PP total or each would have it's own amount (although they still would cast simultaneously)? Would they have freedom when adding new powers (through levels or other means)? And what would be the consequences of manifesting a metaconcert? How would they contribute to the "pool" for the new formed psionic entity?
    Last edited by Thant; 2011-03-13 at 10:52 AM.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Actually, it would be pretty fun to homebrew the Shardminds....

    Yeah, what others have said; Wilden are known as Killoren in 3.5e, and can be found in Races of the Wild.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Could this work? Hopefully its balanced.

    Shardmind Racial Traits
    • -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom
    Medium Construct (Living Construct, Extraplanar): Living constructs combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures. See the Living Construct subtype for more details. As Medium creatures, Shardminds do not gain and advantages or disadvantages due to size. As natives of the Astral Plane, Shardminds gain the Extraplanar subtype when on the Material Plane.
    • +2 bonus to attack rolls against Aberrations.
    Naturally Psionic: Shardminds gain 2 extra power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
    Swarm Form (Ex): Once per day, a Shardmind may break down into its base form, a swarm of animated crystalline shards. In this form, the Shardmind’s size changes to diminutive, has a space of 10 ft., and has a reach of 0 ft. The Shardmind does not have the distraction ability, but deals swarm damage as a swarm of its HD would. A Shardmind gains all other swarm traits, except a Shard swarm reduced to 0 hp becomes inert. A Shardmind can remain this form for a number of rounds equal to its Wisdom modifier before having to make concentration checks (DC 15 + number of rounds spent in swarm form) to maintain it. All items being carries by the Shardmind are dropped during the transformation. A Shardmind who is killed or knocked unconscious automatically enters the Swarm Form, even if it has expended its daily use. It does not deal swarm damage when this occurs, but it keeps all swarm immunities. Once brought back to positive hit points, the Shardmind regains its humanoid form.
    Damage Reduction 3/Bludgeoning: The Shardmind’s crystalline body makes it resistant to certain forms of attacks. This ability allows the Shardmind to ignore the first 3 points of damage dealt by any weapon other than ones that deal bludgeoning damage.
    Vulnerability to Sonic Attacks: Shardminds, being composed of living crystal, are more vulnerable to sonic attacks than other creatures. They take 50% extra damage from such attacks. Shardminds take damage from the Shatter spell (see spell description for more details).
    Languages: Common, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Terran, Celestia, Infernal, Abyssal.
    Favored Class: Psion
    Level Adjustment: +1

    For a Dark Sun campaign, I would make the following changes:
    • Lose the extraplanar subtype. As others have said, making them creatures spawned by the pristine tower could be interesting.
    • Change all references to crystal with obsidian.
    • You might want to swap the bonus languages for languages that make a little more sense for the campaign.
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2011-03-14 at 07:31 PM.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    LotrFan, this looks awesome!

    I would onlu add a few things:

    - Considering that they are made entierly of crystal/obsidian I guess that living construct entry should be altered a bit when it comes to effect of certain spells & powers; they wouldn't be affected by a heat metal, repel wood, rustling grasp etc. in a way a warforged would (in place of this I guess some psionic powers or spells aimed at crystalline properties of objects should be mentioned).

    - As natural telepaths maybe they should be given a missive at will power (I'm not sure how much is this unbalanced (if at all)?

    - Also, as it is accustomed in DS 3.5 all player races have an "inborn power" of 1st level; I guess a crystal shard (or missive) would be in place for these guys.

    - I'm not sure how aging works for races with living construct feature. Are they immortal? Would they gain no penalties (but no bonuses too) from the length of their lifespans?

    - Seen how all spiky and edgy they are would it be right to give them a natural attack of some sort?

    - An interesting idea occured to me: if a Shardmind was made from for example blood obsidian or deep crystal, whould she retain the special properties of the material or they would be lost altogether? Or if an adventurer would salvage a body of a dead Shardmind and made a weapon out of it would it then affect the weapon properties (taking into account that the "corpse" was made from something else and not just regular obsidian)? Would a racial feat be a good idea for something of the sort? Something like "Deep Crystal Body [Racial]". It's an interesting thought


    Other than this and the Dvati question I have another one considering the Ptterans; they always strike me as the "boring race" of the DS with nothing that much interesting to add (ugly flightless reptilian? Why not just play a Dray or Ssuran?) so I was thinking to refit them a bit more toward the Pterrax giving them an ability to fly depending on their HD (similar to Raptorans). Would that be ok?
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    LotrFan, this looks awesome!

    I would onlu add a few things:

    - Considering that they are made entierly of crystal/obsidian I guess that living construct entry should be altered a bit when it comes to effect of certain spells & powers; they wouldn't be affected by a heat metal, repel wood, rustling grasp etc. in a way a warforged would (in place of this I guess some psionic powers or spells aimed at crystalline properties of objects should be mentioned).
    I was under the impression that those were Warforged-only traits, not Living Construct traits in general. For Obsidian Shardminds, I guess stone to flesh would negate the damage resistance. I'll have to look through the srd to find other changes in spells to fit their biology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    - As natural telepaths maybe they should be given a missive at will power (I'm not sure how much is this unbalanced (if at all)?
    Alright, although I'm sort of worried that might put them in LA +2 territory (especially combined with you're natural weapon suggestion below). I could be wrong, so I'll wait for someone else to comment if that is to powerful for LA +1 or not, but would you care if it upped the LA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    - Also, as it is accustomed in DS 3.5 all player races have an "inborn power" of 1st level; I guess a crystal shard (or missive) would be in place for these guys.
    Interesting. I've always used the athas.org version, which didn't have those. Do you play the Dragon magazine version? I'll have to compare the powers of the other races to find an appropriate one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    - I'm not sure how aging works for races with living construct feature. Are they immortal? Would they gain no penalties (but no bonuses too) from the length of their lifespans?
    I think they are ageless. I'm not sure. I think that's DM's choice, so I'll leave that to you to decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    - Seen how all spiky and edgy they are would it be right to give them a natural attack of some sort?
    I'm willing to do it, but check my comment about the psionic power above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    - An interesting idea occured to me: if a Shardmind was made from for example blood obsidian or deep crystal, whould she retain the special properties of the material or they would be lost altogether? Or if an adventurer would salvage a body of a dead Shardmind and made a weapon out of it would it then affect the weapon properties (taking into account that the "corpse" was made from something else and not just regular obsidian)? Would a racial feat be a good idea for something of the sort? Something like "Deep Crystal Body [Racial]". It's an interesting thought
    That could be an interesting idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thant View Post
    Other than this and the Dvati question I have another one considering the Ptterans; they always strike me as the "boring race" of the DS with nothing that much interesting to add (ugly flightless reptilian? Why not just play a Dray or Ssuran?) so I was thinking to refit them a bit more toward the Pterrax giving them an ability to fly depending on their HD (similar to Raptorans). Would that be ok?
    I think the Athas.org version of the Pterrans are kind of cool. I don't know about you're suggestion, though, because I'd have to see the actual pterran stats to suggest anything. I'll leave that to someone is is more familiar with them.
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    Default Re: 4E races equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I was under the impression that those were Warforged-only traits, not Living Construct traits in general. For Obsidian Shardminds, I guess stone to flesh would negate the damage resistance. I'll have to look through the srd to find other changes in spells to fit their biology.
    You are right, those traits are reserved for Warforged only, my bad

    But I think some sort of equivalent (in spells and powers that affect them as crystalline creatures) would be appropriate for the Shardminds (maybe they are immune to crystallize, subject to matter manipulation power and so on) but that's just a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    Alright, although I'm sort of worried that might put them in LA +2 territory (especially combined with you're natural weapon suggestion below). I could be wrong, so I'll wait for someone else to comment if that is to powerful for LA +1 or not, but would you care if it upped the LA?
    Quote Originally Posted by LTRfan View Post
    I'm willing to do it, but check my comment about the psionic power above.
    I wouldn't care much considering that all of the starting races in DS 3.5 we use (link provided) have a minimum LA of +1 because of the additional benefits their racial traits confer to the characters (the idea of Athasian inhabitants being stronger and more resilient than their counterparts on other planes) so it would actually translate as if their LA was one level lower in a way (LA +1 being LA +0 among the other Athasian chars). A natural attack would be neat but not a requirement (some natural armor instead maybe?)

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    Interesting. I've always used the athas.org version, which didn't have those. Do you play the Dragon magazine version? I'll have to compare the powers of the other races to find an appropriate one.
    These are the two books me and my players use the most for reference + Core & 3.5 psionics (Complete, Expanded) as well as some other books (Terror of Athas etc.) while referring to 2nd Ed. when the needs be (mostly for fluff) with a bit of 4th Ed. (ideas that we feel would fit well with original setting). The rules for defiling are the ones found in the Dragon Magazine 315 (already included in the linked Campaign Setting).

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I think they are ageless. I'm not sure. I think that's DM's choice, so I'll leave that to you to decide.
    I agree and I think that there should be a drawback to immortality of any sort (losing both the benefits and penalties of old age in this case for example).


    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    That could be an interesting idea.
    I will contemplate a bit more on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    I think the Athas.org version of the Pterrans are kind of cool. I don't know about you're suggestion, though, because I'd have to see the actual pterran stats to suggest anything. I'll leave that to someone is is more familiar with them.
    The main problem I have with them is that they are flightless pterodactyls which is a bit contradictory by itself. On the other hand you have Pterrax (they are in the DS 3.5 monster manual; I think that somewhere is rvrn mentioned that the Pterrans are their offshot) that are as good as their cousins but with the ability to fly (and they remind me of Sauron which is even more awesome).

    Maybe adding a feat similar to the Outsider Wings from MoF would do the trick (Pterrax Lineage [racial] for example). I do like them but I feel that they are somehow left behind by other races (they aren't that much rich culturally either) and that with this option they would be more appealing to the players and present an alternative to the Aarakocra.


    Tnx for your replies and comments, your have aided me greatly!
    Last edited by Thant; 2011-03-13 at 06:10 PM.
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