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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    I was looking for some good feats for artful dodger Rogue, I know people might say that Brutal Scroundel is better but I wanted to make an artful one with lots of mobility in mind.

    Right now I'm thinking of making a Drow with Reckless Scramble (when a power lets you shift you can instead move with +2 bonus square) and Shadowslip (when using your cloud of darkness you can shift 2 squares as a free action) feats. So I could move 4 squares when using cloud of darkness and since it blinds the enemy I wouldn't take an attack of oportunity. Also getting powers that allows me to shift. Make Str my dump stat and getting everything on Dex and Cha. With Artful Dodger bonus to AC should I get feats that improve it?

    We will start at level 1 but I would like to know what you guys think about this build and what to make out of it at higher levels.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    if you're going for a mobility drow build i would suggest going cunning sneak instead. for artful dodger i would suggest taking half elf due to the dex\cha bonus. or if you want mobility be eladrin for the Feystep power.

    there is also a feat that lets your shift 1 square when you stand up from prone.

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    Warforged: We can draw the guards away from the treasury if we set that orphanage two blocks down on fire.

    Paladin: wtf, NO! Why would you say something like that?

    Warforged: Fine, fine. I'll go burn down the church instead. I bet the screams of the monks will carry farther than the children's anyway, judging on their singing capacity.

    Paladin: I've got a better idea. You shut up and we'll send the rogue around back >.<

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    Mando Knight's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by mobdrazhar View Post
    if you're going for a mobility drow build i would suggest going cunning sneak instead. for artful dodger i would suggest taking half elf due to the dex\cha bonus.
    What is this.

    Half Elves grant Con/Cha. Drow grant Dex/Cha. If you're allowing the Essentials updates, then Half Elves are Con/(Wis or Cha), and Drow are Dex/(Cha or Wis).
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    gah.... getting myself confussed... my bad... not in front of my books atm... sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Warforged: We can draw the guards away from the treasury if we set that orphanage two blocks down on fire.

    Paladin: wtf, NO! Why would you say something like that?

    Warforged: Fine, fine. I'll go burn down the church instead. I bet the screams of the monks will carry farther than the children's anyway, judging on their singing capacity.

    Paladin: I've got a better idea. You shut up and we'll send the rogue around back >.<

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    How are you doing this at a atm?
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    You're a frickin' ninja below me, too!? You got mad skills, Vknight.
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    Rogue vs. Dog. (The new Cat vs. Commoner, only not amusing!)
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    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Nu's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    I was looking for some good feats for artful dodger Rogue, I know people might say that Brutal Scroundel is better but I wanted to make an artful one with lots of mobility in mind.

    Right now I'm thinking of making a Drow with Reckless Scramble (when a power lets you shift you can instead move with +2 bonus square) and Shadowslip (when using your cloud of darkness you can shift 2 squares as a free action) feats. So I could move 4 squares when using cloud of darkness and since it blinds the enemy I wouldn't take an attack of oportunity. Also getting powers that allows me to shift. Make Str my dump stat and getting everything on Dex and Cha. With Artful Dodger bonus to AC should I get feats that improve it?

    We will start at level 1 but I would like to know what you guys think about this build and what to make out of it at higher levels.
    Seems like it'd be more beneficial to dump Int or Wis than Str (Athletics is a good skill for rogues that want mobility). Are you interested in going for a throwing-dagger build, or a hand-crossbow build? I imagine hand-crossbow might be more attractive, given you are drow (and thus qualify for the ruthless hunter feat), and you'd qualify for weapon-related feats easier for ranged weapons than melee with low strength (though this is mostly only a concern if you believe the campaign will reach epic tier).

    Consider a hand crossbow, with the ruthless hunter and two-fisted shooter feats (so dual-wielding hand crossbows). Hidden sniper is also a useful way for rogues to gain CA.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    I agree to all of the ones just stated as I have a Drow built around that idea.
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    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Nu View Post
    Seems like it'd be more beneficial to dump Int or Wis than Str (Athletics is a good skill for rogues that want mobility). Are you interested in going for a throwing-dagger build, or a hand-crossbow build? I imagine hand-crossbow might be more attractive, given you are drow (and thus qualify for the ruthless hunter feat), and you'd qualify for weapon-related feats easier for ranged weapons than melee with low strength (though this is mostly only a concern if you believe the campaign will reach epic tier).

    My stats are the following for now on level 1 without racial modifiers:
    10 STR, 11 CON, 17 DEX, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
    I plan to raise 1 CON and 1 DEX at level 4, afterwards all DEX/CHA



    Quote Originally Posted by Nu View Post
    Consider a hand crossbow, with the ruthless hunter and two-fisted shooter feats (so dual-wielding hand crossbows). Hidden sniper is also a useful way for rogues to gain CA.
    Interesting. But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option. Is there any viable build with crossbow in one hand and daggar in the other?

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    There is the feat distant advantage giving you combat advantage when your allies flank the target.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    My stats are the following for now on level 1 without racial modifiers:
    10 STR, 11 CON, 17 DEX, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
    I plan to raise 1 CON and 1 DEX at level 4, afterwards all DEX/CHA




    Interesting. But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option. Is there any viable build with crossbow in one hand and daggar in the other?
    two fisted shooter feat allows hand xbow in your off-hand and free reload

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Warforged: We can draw the guards away from the treasury if we set that orphanage two blocks down on fire.

    Paladin: wtf, NO! Why would you say something like that?

    Warforged: Fine, fine. I'll go burn down the church instead. I bet the screams of the monks will carry farther than the children's anyway, judging on their singing capacity.

    Paladin: I've got a better idea. You shut up and we'll send the rogue around back >.<

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Nu's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by mobdrazhar View Post
    two fisted shooter feat allows hand xbow in your off-hand and free reload
    This is true, however, the free attacks from criticals would only trigger from attacks made with the dagger in the main hand (as I understand it). Master at arms becomes a superior feat to crossbow expertise if you plan to go this route, and you won't get as much benefit from ruthless hunter (and thus may choose to ignore it).

    Keep in mind that you can only choose rogue weapon talent OR sharpshooter talent, and thus if you want to keep melee an option I would drop the hand crossbow and just rely on a throwing dagger. Drow does naturally lend itself to hand crossbows given the feat support, but it should be able to function as a dagger rogue just as well as any other.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Is there any way to make a dagger have the high crit property? If so I think I might do Two-fisted shooter, Ruthless Hunter with a dagger in the main hand and a hand crossbow on the off hand. Also does the extra attack with the crossbow cause an attack of opportunity?

    Also can someone clarify sneak attack for me? I can sneak attack only once per round right?

    Also I don't like throwing daggers because they have a pretty crappy range. If I'm 5 squares away from my target I might as well do a melee attack.
    Last edited by hoff; 2011-03-07 at 08:43 PM.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    Is there any way to make a dagger have the high crit property? If so I think I might do Two-fisted shooter, Ruthless Hunter with a dagger in the main hand and a hand crossbow on the off hand. Also does the extra attack with the crossbow cause an attack of opportunity?

    Also can someone clarify sneak attack for me? I can sneak attack only once per round right?
    Yes rogue weapon mastery though it is not worth it damage wise in general until epic (it is a paragon feat in martial power).

    I believe there is a feat that allows hand crossbow attacks with no opportunity attacks though I do not remember if it was in the two fisted shooter feat or in a drow only feat.

    Sneak attack was updated in essentials making it 1/turn (originally it was 1/round). This means you can sneak attack on your turn and then once on any other persons turn (such as from opportunity attacks or from your riposte from riposte strike).

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    No magical item that grants high critical to a dagger?

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    high crit is very weak on a dagger since it is only 3d4 extra damage on a crit at epic levels so is there a reason you really need it and the feat won't work for you?

    You could use a blood iron weapon from the adventurers vault which lets you deal your extra damage from a critical hit twice.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Ah BloodIron I remeber that before the Dm realized what I could do with that.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Oh sorry I confused high crit with increase crit chance, so indeed high crit is pretty useless for a dagger. This is my first 4e campaign

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Ah don't worry I almost did that myself.
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    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    My stats are the following for now on level 1 without racial modifiers:
    10 STR, 11 CON, 17 DEX, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
    I plan to raise 1 CON and 1 DEX at level 4, afterwards all DEX/CHA
    The optimizer in me is crying.

    If nothing else, start with:
    Str 10
    Con 13
    Dex 17
    Int 8
    Wis 10
    Cha 15

    What happens? You lose 1 point of Charisma and gain 2 of Con. Then at level 4 and afterwards, you put your bonus points into Dex and Cha. At level 4, this means Cha 16 and Con 13 -- you basically net yourself a free point of Con, which will be useful at level 11 (or earlier if you want a feat that requires Con 13). The downside? Your Cha is odd at levels 1-4. But you obviously expect the game to last more than a couple of levels or you wouldn't have made your primary stat odd.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    Oh sorry I confused high crit with increase crit chance, so indeed high crit is pretty useless for a dagger. This is my first 4e campaign
    I was beginning to think that.

    Jagged weapon from the adventures vault gives you improved crits (19-20).

    Also the dagger master paragon path gives you 18-20 crits with rogue powers at level 11 which is awesome.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    There is also an epic level feat which increases crit range by 1.

    I also think there is one that lets you get an increase in Paragon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Vknight View Post
    There is also an epic level feat which increases crit range by 1.

    I also think there is one that lets you get an increase in Paragon.
    I think that Hoff is avoiding that feat since the character will likely not have the str score to get that feat.

    In paragon I can only think of dagger master for non-item related crit boosts.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Yeah, I miss 'Keen' so much.
    If only it still existed and could be combined with dagger master.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Vknight View Post
    Yeah, I miss 'Keen' so much.
    If only it still existed and could be combined with dagger master.
    Jagged weapon is keen (at least essentially it is) and just like in 3.5 it does not stack with improved critical so it is par the course really.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Your not helping your making this worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miscast_Mage View Post
    You're a frickin' ninja below me, too!? You got mad skills, Vknight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Rogue vs. Dog. (The new Cat vs. Commoner, only not amusing!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Vknight View Post
    Your not helping your making this worse.
    I am not sure if you are being serious (and what you mean by that) or if this is some sarcasm that is just not translating due to the medium.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-03-07 at 10:12 PM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Well you keep on bringing up more details which are depressing then when I try to have fond memories I'm jolted by more details.
    So its part sarcasm part annoyance.

    There I hope you get it now if not I can go more in depth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    Well I am sorry I jolted you out of some fond memories, I assure that my desire for accuracy was not intended as a means to cause anybody bad feelings.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    No problem I understand you didn't mean to. Ah if only my players could handle 3.5, so we only play 4e
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    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

    To use Artful Dodger and focus on DEX and CHA you're going to get a lot of use out of at-will powers Deft Strike (mobility) and Sly Flourish (extra damage from CHA) and encounter power Positioning Strike (extra mobility for Artful Dodger). That establishes the minimum you're going to want starting at level 1. If you want to pick up some Rattling stuff (also from Martial Power, where Reckless Scramble is) because you're focusing on CHA, which helps with Intimidate, then you could also use Disheartening Strike. So that means your tradeoff is between the Human bonus at-will or Drow 1/encounter powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option.
    Admittedly, it's harder at lower levels to get CA for ranged attacks, but it is possible, and Artful Dodger is just the thing to help. Pick Positioning Strike to shift the target or Fox’s Gambit to shift yourself. Take advantage of the terrain to move/shift so that you've got superior cover (like a corner + an enemy, a hill + a tree, & c.), or use some distraction just before combat starts so you only need ordinary cover to make your Stealth check to stay hidden. There are lots of ways your allies (especially spellcasters) can block line of sight. Of course you've got the 1/encounter "Create a Diversion to Hide" Bluff check to allow you to make a Stealth check, and if you go with your Drow preference Cloud of Darkness is excellent to set up CA for a ranged attack. Press the Advantage is a useful feat to take so that you'll retain combat advantage if you get a lucky roll (critical hit). When you get to level 3 get a Duelist’s Weapon for the daily grant of CA.

    When you get to level 6 pick Chameleon to let you hide again in combat. At level 7 pick From the Shadows, so that if you have any cover or concealment you can make a Stealth check. After that you're golden.

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