[4e] Artful Dodger Rogue

[MeeposFire]

If you want to do the stealth all the time thing cunning sneak is by far better than artful dodger. Artful dodger is about getting defensive bonuses against opportunity attacks which implies being caught in melee. Cunning sneak does the stealth thing better since that is its shtick and intelligence is not really important for the build so you can still take cha boosts.

One great tactic for artful dodgers is to get into melee with a monster that is next to your defender friend and purposely provoking opportunity attacks. The monster will have a hard time hitting you due to cha mod to AC plus the mark penalty and the defender gets an extra attack. Good trade

[Daftendirekt]

Here's a very thorough handbook on 4e rogues, has solid advice for ANY rogue build, I'm sure you can find something for what you need in it.

[hoff]

One great tactic for artful dodgers is to get into melee with a monster that is next to your defender friend and purposely provoking opportunity attacks. The monster will have a hard time hitting you due to cha mod to AC plus the mark penalty and the defender gets an extra attack. Good trade

I think I found a little loophole in the rules that have to do with this. If I have shadowslip (any shift I make becomes move with a +2 squares bonus) and the daily power Clever Riposte (do DEX mod damage each time you are attacked until the end of the encounter and can shift), if you are attacked you do DEX damage and move, by moving you grant an attack of opportunity and do DEX damage again and you can move again (and if the enemy can do more attacks of opportunity you can do this until he runs out), if the enemy is marked this can mean he can get even more attacks. Very neat yet not a game breaker.

Admittedly, it's harder at lower levels to get CA for ranged attacks, but it is possible, and Artful Dodger is just the thing to help. Pick Positioning Strike to shift the target or Fox’s Gambit to shift yourself. Take advantage of the terrain to move/shift so that you've got superior cover (like a corner + an enemy, a hill + a tree, & c.), or use some distraction just before combat starts so you only need ordinary cover to make your Stealth check to stay hidden. There are lots of ways your allies (especially spellcasters) can block line of sight. Of course you've got the 1/encounter "Create a Diversion to Hide" Bluff check to allow you to make a Stealth check, and if you go with your Drow preference Cloud of Darkness is excellent to set up CA for a ranged attack. Press the Advantage is a useful feat to take so that you'll retain combat advantage if you get a lucky roll (critical hit). When you get to level 3 get a Duelist’s Weapon for the daily grant of CA.

I was planing to take those powers, they are pretty good for my build. I'm going the dagger on main hand, hand crossbow on the offhand and Two-fisted shooter feat. That way I can do all the ranged stuff you said while also being able to charge in combat if needed.
As for At-wills I'm going Sly-flourish and Piercing strike. Deft strike doesn't look so good since it is a move 2, not shift 2. So you get only to move 2 squares and take a attack of opportunity anyway
For powers fox gambit looks like a life saver. Lets say you are charged by a big baddie, you do a fox gambit attack move 6 squares and you still have a move action free, if I have Clever Riposte activated the target will think twice before charging me. Very nice.

I don't want to be a shadow dancer though, although they are cool in paper all the tests required to be stealthed all the time are annoying plus sometimes there just isn't any cover (my DM doesn't use pre-made dungeons, when we face an encounter he simply gets his squared paper puts some walls). I also don't master all the rules so I would be kinda lost with all the stealth rolls/powers.



Thanks for the help everyone.

[Kurald Galain]

I think I found a little loophole in the rules that have to do with this. If I have shadowslip (any shift I make becomes move with a +2 squares bonus) and the daily power Clever Riposte (do DEX mod damage each time you are attacked until the end of the encounter and can shift), if you are attacked you do DEX damage and move, by moving you grant an attack of opportunity and do DEX damage again and you can move again (and if the enemy can do more attacks of opportunity you can do this until he runs out),

That doesn't work, for several reasons.

For starters, pretty much nothing in the game can make multiple opportunity attacks during the same turn. Second, an enemy can always elect not to make an OA; just because you're provoking doesn't mean you're attacked. Third, shifting doesn't provoke OAs in the first place. And fourth, this way the enemy will do more damage to you than you to him, and he'll have more hit points than you do.

Deft strike doesn't look so good since it is a move 2, not shift 2. So you get only to move 2 squares and take a attack of opportunity anyway

It is nevertheless an excellent power for getting into the right melee spots. You should have a huge AC bonus against OAs anyway.

For powers fox gambit looks like a life saver. Lets say you are charged by a big baddie, you do a fox gambit attack move 6 squares and you still have a move action free, if I have Clever Riposte activated the target will think twice before charging me.

...how is that a life saver exactly? The enemy can most likely move + charge you (or use a ranged attack), and that riposte is not going to deter a big monster.

Question: The artul dodger bonus to AC and fox gambit bonus shift gets increased by 1/2 your level?

No. Only a few things go up by half your level, and this isn't one of them. Attack rolls, defenses, initiative, and skills. That's it; damage rolls don't get the bonus either.

[Dimers]

Fair warning: the blind leading the blind, here.

Interesting. But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option. Is there any viable build with crossbow in one hand and daggar in the other?

This is true, however, the free attacks from criticals would only trigger from attacks made with the dagger in the main hand (as I understand it).

That doesn't seem to be the case. The text says nothing about the source of the crit, and there's nothing on the feat in the errata/updates. Looks like you could keep up a steady stream of crossbow bolts as long as you keep critting, in fact.

high crit is very weak on a dagger since it is only 3d4 extra damage on a crit at epic levels ...

Well, getting max damage on all your regular dice helps a little too. Yeah, I know, they're only d4s, but sometimes it makes all the difference you need.

[hoff]

Third, shifting doesn't provoke OAs in the first place. And fourth, this way the enemy will do more damage to you than you to him, and he'll have more hit points than you do.

I agree with your other points but if you read the discussion before I was planning on taking Reckless Scramble (when a power lets you shift you can instead move with two more squares) so it would cause an attack of opportunity. For that reason I also want all the powers that allow me to shift too.

It is nevertheless an excellent power for getting into the right melee spots. You should have a huge AC bonus against OAs anyway.

Clever Strike (if an ally is adjacent to the target you have CA against him, melee only) seems better to me for melee.

...how is that a life saver exactly? The enemy can most likely move + charge you (or use a ranged attack), and that riposte is not going to deter a big monster.

You can use a extra move action for lots of things. Get behind the fighter, get to the shadows to stealth.

No. Only a few things go up by half your level, and this isn't one of them. Attack rolls, defenses, initiative, and skills. That's it; damage rolls don't get the bonus either.

Well this changes a lot of things for me, I thought that it would at least increase damage rolls. This makes Clever Riposte a lot less atractive.

[Kurald Galain]

Clever Strike (if an ally is adjacent to the target you have CA against him, melee only) seems better to me for melee.

YMMV. I haven't taken any powers or feats that say "when X happens, you gain combat advantage" on either of my rogue characters, and both of them get their sneak attack damage 95% of the time anyway. All it takes is a bit of teamwork.

You can use a extra move action for lots of things. Get behind the fighter, get to the shadows to stealth.

Oh, I'm sure it's a useful power; however it isn't nearly as great as your post seems to claim. For example, Dazing Strike (followed by running away) also makes it hard for the enemy to attack you, and as an added bonus he can't OA anyone, grants CA to all your allies, and loses some of his actions next turn.

[Mando Knight]

That doesn't work, for several reasons.

For starters, pretty much nothing in the game can make multiple opportunity attacks during the same turn. Second, an enemy can always elect not to make an OA; just because you're provoking doesn't mean you're attacked. Third, shifting doesn't provoke OAs in the first place. And fourth, this way the enemy will do more damage to you than you to him, and he'll have more hit points than you do.

You missed another big one: you can't take Opportunity or Immediate actions on your own turn.

[MeeposFire]

:


Well, getting max damage on all your regular dice helps a little too. Yeah, I know, they're only d4s, but sometimes it makes all the difference you need.

Well maxing damage is nice but that 3d4 damage is from high crit which means it is not maximized since it is a crit only damage roll and you do not maximize crit only damage rolls.

[Dimers]

Well maxing damage is nice but that 3d4 damage is from high crit which means it is not maximized since it is a crit only damage roll and you do not maximize crit only damage rolls.

Sorry, I meant maxing the dagger's own [W] value, not the extra dice. That adds about 1.5 damage per [W] in the base power, a small but helpful addition to the one to three dice granted by the high crit property.

[Bugbeartrap]

Ah! This reminds me of my second 4e character. Back then, I made a artful dodger goblin. Now check out his racial power: at-will, immediate action shift when you dodge an attack. Slap on reckless scramble and your insane AoO bonus AC and dance around the battlefield! Your AoOs fuel your move which makes more AoOs! Madness!

[mobdrazhar]

if you're going to go with the hand crossbow then i would suggest taking Prepratory Shot as it means that the turn after you use it you will have CA for either a melee OR ranged attack next and thus can sneak attack

[hoff]

Ah! This reminds me of my second 4e character. Back then, I made a artful dodger goblin. Now check out his racial power: at-will, immediate action shift when you dodge an attack. Slap on reckless scramble and your insane AoO bonus AC and dance around the battlefield! Your AoOs fuel your move which makes more AoOs! Madness!

Wow that is actually a pretty good race for my build, but I don't like the idea of roleplaying a goblin though, goblins also have +2 DEX and +2 CHA. Tell me, did you have a decent AC to avoid all the AoOs or did you need to get something extra to help? If I roll human I was thinking in getting defensive mobility (+2 AC against AoOs) and later retrain it.

if you're going to go with the hand crossbow then i would suggest taking Prepratory Shot as it means that the turn after you use it you will have CA for either a melee OR ranged attack next and thus can sneak attack

That is a pretty disapointing power, especially for my low int build. Acrobatic strike is far more interesting. If I got it I would be dropping 1d4 to get 2d6 in a really restricted scenario.

I'm down to these 3 at-wills:
Sly flourish, Clever Strike and Acrobatic Strike.
Now I don't know if I roll human and get those three or stick to drow because of cloud of darkness. Ruthless hunter feat doesn't appeal much to me because I will not be wielding two hand-crossbows.

[MeeposFire]

I like kobolds over goblins. Minor action shifting is awesome.

[Blackfang108]

Wow that is actually a pretty good race for my build, but I don't like the idea of roleplaying a goblin though, goblins also have +2 DEX and +2 CHA. Tell me, did you have a decent AC to avoid all the AoOs or did you need to get something extra to help? If I roll human I was thinking in getting defensive mobility (+2 AC against AoOs) and later retrain it.

Your AC against AoOs, as an artful Dodger:
10+(.5L)+2(Leather armor)+DEX+CHA+Enhancement

We'll do my favorite spread, 16-16 for the main stats. Assume a DEX/CHA race (Drow, Halfling, Goblin, Kenku, ... there's at least one more.)
Both Dex and Cha are now 18, (+4)
10+2+4+4+(.5L)+(Enhancement)=20+(.5L)+(Enhancement )

A base of 20 AC at level 1, assuming you're not a halfling. (they get a +2 bonus v AoOs.)

Honestly, you really don't need to waste the feat on Defensive Mobility. Get a multiclass instead.
I suggest Pact Initiate (Fey-Pact For Eyebite), Sorceror (Extra damage 1/enc, or permanent resist 5 to a damage type), Haunting Shade (Stealth bonus + Darkvision, Dragon 387), or just about anything you qualify for, depending on what you're trying to do. (For stealth, I like Haunting Shade)

[MeeposFire]

You are going quite low as well since your average rogue can start with an 18 with little loss (same OA AC but better normal AC). Defensive mobility would be overkill its true.

[Nu]

Fair warning: the blind leading the blind, here.

That doesn't seem to be the case. The text says nothing about the source of the crit, and there's nothing on the feat in the errata/updates. Looks like you could keep up a steady stream of crossbow bolts as long as you keep critting, in fact.

I always assumed when you made an attack with a weapon, it was considered to be your "main hand weapon" unless specifically stated otherwise. I don't have any rules quote to back that up, though. I wonder if anyone can find somewhere in the PHB or Rules Compendium that states it one way or the other?

[Kurald Galain]

if you're going to go with the hand crossbow then i would suggest taking Prepratory Shot

I would recommend against that, it's not a very effective option.

Sly flourish, Clever Strike and Acrobatic Strike.
Now I don't know if I roll human and get those three or stick to drow because of cloud of darkness.

In terms of optimization, pick the Drow, hands down. Cloud of Darkness is extremely powerful for a rogue, and having a third at-will gets pretty pointless after level 2 or so.

Acrobatic Strike is better than Clever Strike: as long as there's an ally nearby, then AS would usually allow you to shift into flanking position and gain CA that way (plus it allows you to get away from enemies if needed). So I would recommend SF and AS, plus the awesome Cloud of Darkness.

I always assumed when you made an attack with a weapon, it was considered to be your "main hand weapon" unless specifically stated otherwise.

Incorrect. If you're wielding two weapons, then for every attack you make you can pick which weapon to use (except for powers that explicitly say otherwise). Says so in the PHB right before the class section.

[MeeposFire]

Heroic effort is also really nice though and cloud of darkness does not play nice with your allies so I would say they are very close. In fact they are both rated sky blue in the rogue handbook. I think it comes down to whether you think you want that extra feat, flavor reasons, or if you want to use hand crossbows for sure for choosing between the two.

[hoff]

I suggest Pact Initiate (Fey-Pact For Eyebite), Sorceror (Extra damage 1/enc, or permanent resist 5 to a damage type), Haunting Shade (Stealth bonus + Darkvision, Dragon 387), or just about anything you qualify for, depending on what you're trying to do. (For stealth, I like Haunting Shade)

Eyebite is "invisible until start of your next turn" and is also a standard action, so it's not good for getting CA. Haunting shade is interesting maybe I will get it if I have a spare feat later in the game.

You are going quite low as well since your average rogue can start with an 18 with little loss (same OA AC but better normal AC). Defensive mobility would be overkill its true.

How can a rogue start with 18 base AC? You mean getting 20 DEX?

Question: How many AoOs can a creature make per round? One per enemy or one total? Does AoO from marks count towards this total? So lets say there are a fighter, a ranger and my rogue attacking one tough monster The ranger moves and get one AoO, the fighter makes one AoO from the mark as an immediate interrupt. if he interrupts the AoO can the monster still make one against me? What if the fighter misses his AoO? If the fighter does his AoO can he still do another AoO if the monster moves?

Question 2: If the enemy is big/huge/giant how does I blind it with cloud of darkness? Do I need to cover all his squares? That would be kinda hard with a close burst 1 unless I get a power that allows me to slide my enemy by 1 square...
Say only 2 of his squares (and he is 2x2 or 3x3) are covered by the cloud and I'm also inside the cloud, say the monster isn't blinded but he still can't see me because I'm inside so I would get CA against him right? And if he tried to attack me he would be considered blinded?

[Kurald Galain]

Question: How many AoOs can a creature make per round? One per enemy or one total? Does AoO from marks count towards this total?

One per turn. All AOs count towards the same total, but several marks (e.g. the fighter) have "mark retaliation attacks" that aren't an AO. If it's an immediate interrupt or immediate reaction, then it's not an AO.

How can a rogue start with 18 base AC? You mean getting 20 DEX?

It pays to max out your primary attribute.

[Daftendirekt]

Question: How many AoOs can a creature make per round? One per enemy or one total? Does AoO from marks count towards this total?

From the Compendium: "One per Combatant’s Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatant’s turn, but you can take any number during a round."

So, basically, one per enemy.

[Dimers]

From the Compendium: "One per Combatant’s Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatant’s turn, but you can take any number during a round."

So, basically, one per enemy.

One per enemy or ally. There are quite a few powers your allies can use to make enemies provoke during the ally's turn. I looooove those powers, hehe.

[Jack_Banzai]

It's not as broken as the Daggermaster (how could it be) but I found that my Drow Rogue/Daring Acrobat Artful Dodger has survived very well, considering I started at 3rd level and I'm now 20th. He was originally intended to be played strictly as a duelist, because I liked the idea of his 3[W] and 4[W] attacks actually meaning something with that meaty d8.

Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Quick Draw, Backstabber, Slaying Action, Light Blade Expertise, Flash of the Blade, Weapon Proficiency (Parrying Dagger), Duelist's Panache, Linguist, Bravura Leader.

With a +4 Feyslaughter Rapier, +1 Rhythm Blade parrying dagger, Skald's Drowmesh +3, and Liar's Trinket +4, my defenses are AC 35, Fort 26, Ref 36, Will 30. Those are ok, but after using Opening Move (my favorite duelist Encounter) that bumps my AC to 43 and my Ref to 44. Pretty good for a Rogue with subpar gear.

Damage isn't bad with this build either. Since the Daring Acrobat is all about charging, you end up with a lot of bang for your buck even without a crit. Damage is usually in the low 40s for just a regular, plain old hit. The crit is extra nice, of course. And with that rapier, powers like Wild Tumble Cut (Encounter, 4[W] damage), Feinting Flurry (Daily, 5[W] damage), and Dramatic Finish (4[W] or 6[W] damage) actually make the Ws mean something. Virtually unheard of for a Rogue.

So not the massive, master OP character that the Daggermaster and other builds deliver, but still a solid striker with plenty of flavor and diverse abilities (I took Linguist, for god's sake) that is a lot of fun to play.

[Blackfang108]

Eyebite is "invisible until start of your next turn" and is also a standard action, so it's not good for getting CA. Haunting shade is interesting maybe I will get it if I have a spare feat later in the game.

Never heard of an Action Point?

[Daftendirekt]

Noticing the argument over the usefulness of Deft Strike:

Take Mark of Passage, and Acrobatic Strike instantly becomes better. Its "Shift 1 before or after attacking" becomes "Shift 2 before or after attacking". Now it's a shift, which trumps Deft's move, and it's before OR after attacking. Also, Mark of Passage applies to ALL shifts given by powers, unlike the feat (Ghostwalker Style?) that lets you move AFTER Deft Strike if you didn't before.

[Curmudgeon]

Noticing the argument over the usefulness of Deft Strike:

Take Mark of Passage, and Acrobatic Strike instantly becomes better.

... but only if you're restricted to a light blade. Deft Strike also works with ranged attacks, and getting to move an extra 2 squares beforehand can get you to where you've got line of sight to your target.

[Daftendirekt]

That's what your 2nd at-will is for. I was assuming a melee character upon typing that. As long as the 2nd at will isn't also melee-only, you can make do with that. Different story if it's a hybrid character, but that isn't what this sounds like.

[Kurald Galain]

Noticing the argument over the usefulness of Deft Strike:

Take Mark of Passage, and Acrobatic Strike instantly becomes better.

Mark of Passage, however, is an Eberron Dragonmark Feat and tends to be disallowed in non-Eberron games (primarily because that line of feats is so good that, unless the DM bans them, every character is going to want one)