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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Everyone realizes that spellcasters are broken, at least in the sense of being balanced members of a party. There are a lot of feats, and prestige classes, and specialized equipment built around helping lower Tiers keep up, so that the game stays interesting past the mid levels.

    I've had an idea for nerfing wizards a bit, and I want to toss it out here and see if it's workable. I want to bring wizards down (and the other spellcasters as well) to approximately tier 3.

    My method is simple - when a wizard chooses a specialization school (and they must choose) all other schools are barred. You can play an enchanter, an illusionist, a necromancer - but that's it.

    So, does anyone think this would succeed in creating some more balance? Nerf wizards too much, or not enough? And if not, any other solutions?

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Ok that hurts that really hurts.I am all for nerfing the caster but really this is a bit too much it will hurt the wizard a lot but it hurts the sorc even more.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    The problem with this is that schools are not even remotely balanced between each other.

    Example: Conjuration vs. Evocation.

    Conjuration: cast spells from every school via summoning creatures that have them, bind servants, blast with energy damage that allows no spell resistance, summon creatures stronger than the party fighter, battlefield control, teleportation and planar travel.

    Evocation: deal energy damage that allows spell resistance.


    Or Transmutation: battlefield control, buffs, shapeshifting.

    Some schools do almost everything, some schools barely do anything.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    I think that's just too much. I would fix it like this:
    Every wizard/sorcerer can choose 3 schools: one good, one average and one bad specialization:

    Rank 1 schools
    -Conjuration
    -Transmutation


    Rank 2 schools
    -Enchantment
    -Necromancy
    -Illusion

    Rank 3 schools
    -Evocation
    -Abjuration*
    -Divination

    A rank 1 school can be traded in for a rank 2 school. The same for rank 2 to rank 3 schools.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Why bother with that? A Dread Necromancer would be widely more popular than a Necromancer Wizard in almost all cases, and the same for Beguiler, etc (and even Warmage, since they at least get class skills).

    And for the schools of magic that don't already have specialized base classes, plenty of people have homebrewed their own already. Just go look them up.

    I'm not saying that I don't agree with your design intention - there is just a better way of implementing them.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    It's been said several times before, but: the main problem with the wizard is that some spells are beyond broken. You could build a wizard that could only cast a single spell of every level, and he would still be beyond broken. If someone got a bit creative and had too much free time, he could probably do it with something like "choose any 3 conjuration spells, these are all the spells you ever get".
    "You raise your baton. The glass kettle drums pound out the the overture. Your vision clouds with blood. You wipe it away and continue. The xylophonist's hair bursts into a violet flame, but he continues playing. He's either a consummate professional or very drunk indeed..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Easier way, all spells above third level banned, just spells per day to acomidate or heavy metamagic.
    I feel a bit cutthroat but it would work.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    You could do something like this:
    You can choose schools to be your main: you can learn up to 9th level spells.
    Schools to be your secondary, allowing only spells up to 6th level. Spell level increases in 1.
    Schools to be your minor ones, allowing only spells up to 3rd level. Spell level increases in 2.

    As was pointed out, you need to check with schools are stronger than others, meaning that your choices change which schools you can put where. I'll have ti think about it a bit.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Honestly, if you're going to limit spells to 1 school, just cut Wizards and Sorcerers completely and go with the Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and the few homebrew classes for the other schools that are out there.

    The results will be similar (most of those classes are solidly tier 3), and the classes will feel more interesting.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Getting a tier 2 wizard isn't hard: all cantrips + four additional spells per level (including first); each level, cannot pick more than two new spells of the highest level available to cast; no new spells except for the ones obtained on level-up.

    To get a tier 3 wizard would require modifying the spells themselves, and it isn't really worth it -- the game provides reasonably functional alternatives to most of the things a wizard can do, after all.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2011-03-13 at 02:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    Honestly, if you're going to limit spells to 1 school, just cut Wizards and Sorcerers completely and go with the Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and the few homebrew classes for the other schools that are out there.

    The results will be similar (most of those classes are solidly tier 3), and the classes will feel more interesting.
    Yeah, I plan on doing something like this for my games.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Quote Originally Posted by Combat Reflexes View Post
    I think that's just too much. I would fix it like this:
    Every wizard/sorcerer can choose 3 schools: one good, one average and one bad specialization:

    Rank 1 schools
    -Conjuration
    -Transmutation


    Rank 2 schools
    -Enchantment
    -Necromancy
    -Illusion

    Rank 3 schools
    -Evocation
    -Abjuration*
    -Divination

    A rank 1 school can be traded in for a rank 2 school. The same for rank 2 to rank 3 schools.

    *Dispel Magic has been made Universal
    I am very sorry, but I have to disagree with your ranking system. The way you perceive a spell-school will greatly depend on your play-style. For example the Divination and Abjuration schools open up so much possibility for the caster that is looking to spy or even in hunting down other casters.

    Evocation is great for battle wizards.

    Illusion and Enchantment are by far the "best" spell schools if you are looking to take over minds and bend reality, confusing others to what they are actually perceiving.

    Transmutation and Conjuration are great for wizards that want some extra help, to change themselves or others , or to bring items into existence, but I have to say that many of the schools cannot be ranked as "better" than one another outside of play-style preference or proper context.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    bah, just ban the really overpower stuff like wish, limited wish etc. then require the wizards to specialize in schools and to take barred schools. I think that would be nerf enough.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    I've considered banning all of the PHB classes to fix some of the tier problems. No more CoDzilla, no more wizard. Would that work?
    Last edited by Thomar_of_Uointer; 2011-03-14 at 12:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    I've considered banning all of the PHB classes to fix some of the tier problems. No more CoDzilla, no more wizard. Would that work?
    It's probably a little heavy-handed, but yes, it would work. I'd suggest keeping the bard and possibly the rogue, however.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    You can probably keep some of the core classes. Ranger, Barbarian, and, as said, Rogue and Bard all aren't too bad.

    Really, the game becomes better if you ban just tier 1, instead of all core. Tier 2 as well, if you are feeling strict and think your players optimize a lot.
    "You raise your baton. The glass kettle drums pound out the the overture. Your vision clouds with blood. You wipe it away and continue. The xylophonist's hair bursts into a violet flame, but he continues playing. He's either a consummate professional or very drunk indeed..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Or you could just have a gentleman/lady's agreement with your group that no one will try to break the game? A wizard can be played at T3-level if someone wants it to. Banning things seems unnecessary beyond a hypothetical group.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellardin View Post
    I am very sorry, but I have to disagree with your ranking system. The way you perceive a spell-school will greatly depend on your play-style. For example the Divination and Abjuration schools open up so much possibility for the caster that is looking to spy or even in hunting down other casters.

    Evocation is great for battle wizards.

    Illusion and Enchantment are by far the "best" spell schools if you are looking to take over minds and bend reality, confusing others to what they are actually perceiving.

    Transmutation and Conjuration are great for wizards that want some extra help, to change themselves or others , or to bring items into existence, but I have to say that many of the schools cannot be ranked as "better" than one another outside of play-style preference or proper context.
    Yeah, you're right. This system is more for de-munchkinizing, and it doesn't do even that, because a single-school transmuter wizard can still break the game

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Of course, if your players don't really try to break the game and are willing to change things if they do it accidentally, there's no reason to change things, really.
    "You raise your baton. The glass kettle drums pound out the the overture. Your vision clouds with blood. You wipe it away and continue. The xylophonist's hair bursts into a violet flame, but he continues playing. He's either a consummate professional or very drunk indeed..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    I believe a Conjurer would still be tier 1.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Well, in the case of overpowered conjurers, I would suggest simply ruling that conjuration spells only work if you can actually describe a real-ish thing that is summoned. Thus, for example, if someone casts 'orb of fire' and expects to get a tiny ball of fire, he gets only something more like burning hands (since fire after all requires) fuel to burn. By this logic, spheres of force and sound are totally impossible, as they should be.
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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    I don't think that's what the problem with conjuration is. The problems people are talking about are game-breaking ones like Polymoroh Any Object and such, not spells that summon effects that science can't replicate (seeing as they violate science by definition.)
    Last edited by Gideon Falcon; 2011-03-14 at 03:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Fixing Wizards (Or, Tier 1 nerf)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon View Post
    I don't think that's what the problem with conjuration is. The problems people are talking about are game-breaking ones like Polymoroh Any Object and such, not spells that summon effects that science can't replicate (seeing as they violate science by definition.)
    Replace it with Polymorph any DM approved nonvaluable object?
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