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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Nix once per round clause.

    Replace with "A creature cannot become vulnerable from this feat again until the start of your next turn." to make it clear when the "round" starts/ends.

    "Per round" abilities typically sync with a player's turn in 4e. You don't want things to change when the round turns over.
    Yeah, fair enough, the less ambiguous the better; I was just going with existing wording conventions, but I will admit it's not totally clear whether 'next round' is meant in objective terms, or relative to when the feat effects were applied:

    Benefit: Once per turn, the first Each target you hit with a power that has the cold keyword gains vulnerable 5 cold after the attack that power resolves. This vulnerability lasts until that target takes cold damage, or until the end of your next turn, whichever comes first. A creature may only gain vulnerability to cold from this feat once until the start of the current initiative's next turn.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Is it really that overpowered to just make it once per turn? That's an extra 5 damage per turn, instead of the 30+ you'd get with an un-nerfed Lasting Frost and a multiattacker for a round or two, or the 10 you'd get just from Twin Striking once per turn. On the one hand, I can see the appeal of weakening cold damage...but making it once per round (whatever the wording) makes it go from a feat everyone loves to something that may not be worth taking in the first place.

    Alternatively, or perhaps in addition, I'd actually specify that cold damage from Frozen Whetstones does not trigger the vulnerability. It's one thing to get all the cold damage if you're blowing your weapon enchantment or Paragon Path on getting cold damage. It's another when you're stacking other types because you're a Genasi and you're using a consumable to boost your damage through the roof.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    tart of the current initiative's next turn.
    There should be nothing that triggers off the "turning of the round".

    There is nothing in 4e RAW -- per round abilities reset at the start of a particular combatant's turn if they are per-round.

    As a toy example why, someone whose initiative is last in a round can become first in the next round without changing anything in the in-world fiction. But with that rule, they become able to apply a new iteration of Frost.

    Adding mechanics like that is just icky.

    (The closest in RAW 4e I know of are the monsters who act on fixed initiative values)

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    The initiative of a turn remains constant; it doesn't matter how other initiatives change relative to it, or how it changes relative to other initiatives. The initiative of Henry's turn for example is its alone (it's the count that changes).

    This is the neatest way I've found to word the feat, precedent or not. Personally I'm not averse to breaking with precedent when doing so would make for improved elucidation and wording (and as you've noted there already is reference to initiatives and initiative counts).


    @masteraleph: It's not as bad, but I'd really rather not see 'Cold Mafias', hence this specific limitation.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Dec 2014

    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Considering "Skill save ends" rule, you may be delighted by the news that it was used in excellent Zeitgeist adventure path. The encounter in question is described here (second post from the top), but briefly: boss-like sorcerer curses PCs with really nasty effects (including "you'll probably die if you attack me"), which can only be supressed by Religion checks (basically, reciting a prayer to repel a curse).

    On the other topic, I'm looking for advice considering the very first rule, ritual empowerment. I understand and witness the problems that ritual system has RAW, but honestly I'm a bit afraid to allow surge-casting without limit. I DM a party with a single very cunning and optimization-centered player, who I am sure will try to exploit this for the fullest benefit (eladrin artificer with about +20 Perception and Arcana bonuses at level 8). The source of the problem is that the nature of campaign makes it relatively easy to adhere to "5-min day" policy. I think we never had a day with more than 3 encounters with risk of surge loss, so with rules as presented I can expect Traveller's camouphage (+10 Stealth), Fool's gold (self-explanatory), Hand of fate (3 answers with hand gestures), Iron Vigil (no need to actually sleep) and so on every day or for every encounter. It wouldn't be such a problem by itself (I can always up the stakes and difficulty), but it somewhat widens the gap between this PC and the rest of the party, not mechanically, but by "importance" ("I single-handedly buff the whole party each day").

    I certainly consider adding rules for in-combat casting,even though it's unlikely to be used without specifically tailored encounters. I want to add surge-casting (and actually added one specific surge-cast ritual as plot device), and I'm thinking about adding one more limitation: PC can only master/surge-cast ritual if he's trained in associated skill; this makes them even more like Martial Practices. So, could anyone share the experience of using this house-rule? Did it make a party overpowered? Was it neglected? Any clever combinations that were used?

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Thanks for the feedback hirou; I'm happy to hear that you've got some mileage out of my work!


    On the subject of surge casting, I think if the campaign is really such that your party can literally stop and extended rest at will, I would strongly consider adding some kind of time pressure and/or perhaps limiting surges expended via rituals to being regained at a rate of 1 per extended rest.

    The surge casting rules as presented assume a standard 4-5 encounters per extended rest that are taxing, require the expenditure of daily powers and impose surge loss through damage. I suppose I could make surge recovery more draconian as above, but I somewhat doubt that it would be a good idea as it may well be an overnerf for most games/campaigns.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Thanks for the feedback hirou; I'm happy to hear that you've got some mileage out of my work!
    Just a clarification: I'm not the author of this AP, just a DM, but it seems that authors had similar ideas to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    perhaps limiting surges expended via rituals to being regained at a rate of 1 per extended rest.
    The surge casting rules as presented assume a standard 4-5 encounters per extended rest that are taxing, require the expenditure of daily powers and impose surge loss through damage.
    Thanks for the insight. The proposed scheme basically limits surge casting to 1 ritual/day "for free", and the following rituals will result in h.s. penalty, this may work. Zeitgeist has roughly "double XP rate" (actually, level ups just happen based on plot progression), and I don't want to slow that down, full lvl1-30 campaign takes a lot of our time even in this version.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by hirou View Post
    Thanks for the insight. The proposed scheme basically limits surge casting to 1 ritual/day "for free", and the following rituals will result in h.s. penalty, this may work. Zeitgeist has roughly "double XP rate" (actually, level ups just happen based on plot progression), and I don't want to slow that down, full lvl1-30 campaign takes a lot of our time even in this version.
    NP, and yes, that's what it works out to effectively; if the ritual caster wants to expend additional surges, he's welcome to, but at the risk of not recovering them in time.


    That aside, was thinking of a way to combat over-optimization that relies on adding static modifiers to multiple damage rolls such as Flame Spiral and Twin Strike and this wording came to mind:

    "You can apply positive additive damage modifiers to only one damage roll per target, per attack power."


    Any weaknesses in the wording? Anything it breaks?

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    "You can apply positive additive damage modifiers to only one damage roll per target, per attack power."

    Any weaknesses in the wording? Anything it breaks?
    Well, if you want to fix some abuses that don't rely on damage rolls, like brutal barrage, you could say "instance of damage" instead. Might also want to clarify whether vulnerability is a positive additive damage modifier for these purposes; vulnerability is a very reliable route to high damage output.

    Anything it breaks? Frenzied Berserker's daily20 came to mind, but no, that's fine, it's a series of separate attack powers so it still works.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    How about "Damage stacks on a per-action basis" instead.

    A +X named damage bonus works once per action on a target on an action.
    A +X unnamed damage bonus works once per named game element that produces the damage bonus on a target on an action.

    Twin Strike is one action.

    A power that grants OAs has multiple actions, so you don't get wonkey stacking there.

    You could even extend it to resistances, and have them only apply "once per action" (ie, resist 20 cold that is consumed by the first hit, lets the second hit through).

    In effect, "damage from a single action on a single target is combined into one instance for stacking, resistance and vulnerability purposes." With maybe "No action damage that occurs at a different time extends the damage instance." if you think warlock rebuke damage is too strong. That does add to bookkeeping, however.

    If you do this to twin strike, I'd change it to [W]+Stat if one hit on a target, or 2[W]+Stat if two hits on the same target. Stronger than the baseline twin strike prior to optimization, but worse after.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Best to KISS I think.

    "You can apply positive damage modifiers and bonuses to only one instance of damage per target, enemy creature or object, per action or power."

    Comprehensive and nerfs excess single target damage while keeping diffused/spread out damage strong.


    Not sure if I want to nerf resistances; they're not really a problem whereas multihit powers are. Always best to employ as light a touch as possible.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Added:

    #9: Anti-Frostcheese Lasting Frost is reworded as follows: Benefit: Each target you hit with a power that has the cold keyword gains vulnerable 5 cold after that power resolves. This vulnerability lasts until that target takes cold damage, or until the end of your next turn, whichever comes first. When a creature gains vulnerability in this way during a turn, it cannot do so again until the next start of that that turn.

    Why? Prevents cumulative abuse of the feat + cold damage type combo (known colloquially as 'Frostcheese'), particularly vs single targets, leaving it powerful, particularly when it comes to AoE attacks/attacks against multiple targets, but limited.


    #10: Anti-Multihitcheese "You can apply positive damage modifiers, additions and bonuses to only one instance of damage per target, enemy creature or object, per action or power. This includes extra damage from vulnerabilities."

    Why? Prevents abusive synergies between damage bonuses and powers that hit multiple times such as Flame Spiral, Brutal Barrage and Twin Strike, which can normally apply those bonuses on each hit, resulting in excessive damage outputs.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    I'm curious- have you actually run the numbers to see what the effects of removing these possibilities would be?

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    #10 breaks multi-turn daily powers that deal damage over multiple rounds. Ie, a power causes ongoing fire damage, it only triggers vulnerability once. If a power lets you deal 1d6 damage as a minor action attack once/turn, you only get to add your enhancement bonus once. Etc.

    Or, you need to clarify "per action or power" if that isn't what you mean.

    Or you could just make it "per action". The only hole that leaves is warlock double-tapping bonuses with their trap at-wills.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    I fully understand the bias against starting a new thread once a dialogue has begun just because that dialogue has ventured away from the original topic, but you are very, very far away from just "essential houserules" at present. You are creating a homebrew system. There's nothing wrong with that, but the title of the thread is now misleading.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    I wouldn't say it's different enough to be considered a discrete system from 4e. There are 10 core houserules proposed, and besides them, the game and system are identical. The only thing that could be considered a systemic change among those rules would be the ritual rules.


    As for your comments Yakk, I think the best way to address forms of 'breakage' which are a legitimate issue (1 / round recurring applications of damage essentially) would be to allow for 1 / round recurrence:

    "You can apply positive damage modifiers, additions and bonuses to only one instance of damage per target, enemy creature or object, per action or power per round (i.e. from the turn that action or power was used until the next start of that turn). This includes extra damage from vulnerabilities."

    If the wording is simplified to a 'once per action' basis, there's ambiguity as to whether something degenerate like Flame Spiral can keep recurring damage 1 / turn. To clarify this problem, is the recurring component a function of the action used to initiate the power and therefore the recurring effect? Or is the recurring component detached from the action expended to use the power? That's why I like including 'power' in the language as well, because that recurring component is clearly and unambiguously a product of the power and thus subject to damage bonus recursion limits.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Then fix flame spiral. "Until the start of your next turn, the first time each enemy starts its turn adjacent to you or enters a square adjacent to you takes 1d6 damage".

    Or patch zones and zone like powers separately.

    I guess hellish rebuke "stacking" works sort of right in that it ends at the start of your next turn. So hellish rebuke only gets one instance of damage bonuses (and hence becomes a pretty sucky power: 2d6+stat damage if you pull off extra work).

    It does mean you have to track stacking rules for all of your powers over entire rounds. (what bonuses did I apply to flame spiral?) Which seems a pain as well (more than "did this creature trigger it yet").

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    I'm curious whether you've actually run the numbers. Can a striker keep up reasonably with damage expectations with all of these changes?

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Made a post earlier addressing this that was eaten so I'll keep it brief out of exasperation:


    On the subject of flame spiral, I would prefer to avoid piecemeal, individual case solutions in favour of more comprehensive rules. Addressing specific cases is precisely what WotC tried with zone/area ping ponging abuse and it was an abysmal half-assed disaster with many problematic powers and wombo combos remaining.

    In terms of bog down and complexity, namely keeping track of who has already been subject to damage modifiers during a round, I don't agree that it would be onerous; this is largely a simple and binary metric to consider, no worse than applying a debuff that lasts a round.

    As for Hellish Rebuke, the ability modifier applies during both instances of damage because the power explicitly says so; it's built in, not a bonus of any kind. Further, it's technically possible per the current wording to apply damage bonuses to both instances of damage as the limit 'resets' at the beginning of the next turn during which the power was used, while the effect of Hellish Rebuke ends at the end of the next turn. In short assuming the secondary hit was triggered, it would deal 2d6 + 2x Con mod + 1-2x damage mods depending on timing.


    @masteraleph: Not yet, though I'll be looking into it for sure. That said, unless WotC's own basic design is borked, in theory this shouldn't cripple any strikers as they're supposed to rely on their striking feature and damaging powers outside of multiattack mechanics to meet output expectations. The Scout initially came to mind as a potential problem but its 'striking feature' of a secondary attack actually stems from a separate power and action entirely per its dual attack, so it would work with this without issues. Ranger seems the most likely candidate for falling short of expectations thus far given its reliance on multiattacks and terrible striking feature, at least with respect to single target damage. It is important to note that the changes have minimal impact on dispersed damage; it's focused damage that it impedes primarily.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: [4E] Essential House Rules

    Oops, I had remembered Rebuke as "until the start of your next turn".

    Which makes using Hellish Rebuke the *designed* way "attack me and I punish you" strictly worse than the cheese way "I attack you, I then self-damage to hurt you". You do have to defer your self-damage to your next turn, and you get full on bonus stacking. If you do it in response to the foe hurting you, you deal less total damage.

    Sucks.

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