Who's played Dark Heresy?

[Surrealistik]

Not as of yet, though I do hope that if they were to go into that they do it much better then they have already. The Lord of Change they did stat...in my opinion is horribly inappropriete. DH, RT and DW have always been about keeping closer to fluff then the boardgame..and I do not see at all that the Lord of Change in acsension matches the fluff. This beast should be capable of tearing open Dreadnaughts...causing whole worlds to burn....I doubt very much that it would have such a small willpower.
Theres also the point that ascension is a broken and generally horrible game because they think psykers should become alpha grade the second they level up..so that might have something to do with it.

It can do everything you describe. It has an extremely high Psi rating, draws overbleed from Phenomena, and has access to every Power and Sorcery in the game, including Ascension ones (certain anti-daemonic powers excepted), and can summon legions of lesser daemons. That it can't beat an Ascension Psyker (no shame in that) in a straight up slugfest doesn't mean that it can't lay waste to a Dreadnought with ease, or bring about the subjugation and corruption of a world. Also its Willpower is actually pretty incredible, and that 99 Unnatural 3 Int means it will nearly always be at least one step ahead of the PCs.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Isn't the Lord of Change from BoM? The named one, Marabas. I don't remember one in Ascension.

Nope, he's in Ascension. And there's also stats for a Herald of Khorne (a greater daemon) in there.

Also, I'm pretty sure Marabas will kill a Primaris psyker, unless you're looking at some sort of exploit. He's better at it then you are, has sorcery, and is far, far more intelligent then you.

And on that last note, even if you kill him, he probably planned for that.

[Surrealistik]

Nope, he's in Ascension. And there's also stats for a Herald of Khorne (a greater daemon) in there.

Also, I'm pretty sure Marabas will kill a Primaris psyker, unless you're looking at some sort of exploit. He's better at it then you are, has sorcery, and is far, far more intelligent then you.

And on that last note, even if you kill him, he probably planned for that.

Naw; 90 WP, 3x Unnatural WP Force Barrage + Preternatural Awareness is basically an instant win against Marabas.

[Sarco_Phage]

Also, I'm pretty sure Marabas will kill a Primaris psyker, unless you're looking at some sort of exploit. He's better at it then you are, has sorcery, and is far, far more intelligent then you.

Like Surrealistik points out quite succinctly in his post above mine, Ascension is generally hated for being broken as all hell.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Naw; 90 WP, 3x Unnatural WP Force Barrage + Preternatural Awareness is basically an instant win against Marabas.

I know that you can pull some incredibly broken stuff like that, but Marabas can do the exact same thing. And he has a higher Psi Rating then you. This predicates you getting the drop on him, which is not a fair assumption to make.

And how are you getting 90 Willpower?

[Surrealistik]

I know that you can pull some incredibly broken stuff like that, but Marabas can do the exact same thing. And he has a higher Psi Rating then you. This predicates you getting the drop on him, which is not a fair assumption to make.

And how are you getting 90 Willpower?

He does not have a higher Psy Rating than you, and your WP bonus is substantially larger than his, so you will always go first, and you will vaporize him before he can act.

20 (base) + 30 (Darkholder) + 20 (Upgrades) + Living nightmare (5) = 75 Willpower, then add your Ascension WP advances.

[profitofrage]

HEY wow wait a minute. Whats this Dark holder thing? Ill admit im not totally aware of acension but that doesnt sound right at all. Do other backgrounds randomly dish out +30 bonuses?

[Surrealistik]

HEY wow wait a minute. Whats this Dark holder thing? Ill admit im not totally aware of acension but that doesnt sound right at all. Do other backgrounds randomly dish out +30 bonuses?

Darkholder is in the Radical's Handbook, and is a sub-'homeworld' of the Void Born, and I'm sure there are.

[profitofrage]

Um...im reading Darkholder right now...and I see a +5 advance to willpower...not 30?

[Surrealistik]

Um...im reading Darkholder right now...and I see a +5 advance to willpower...not 30?

Base WP stat for a Darkholder is 25, +5 = 30.

[The Glyphstone]

So you need to roll at least one 20 on 2d10*6 during chargen to get the 75WP, then.

Marabas is still a punk.

[profitofrage]

Well then your calculations are off.

You had 20 (base) + 30 Darkholder e.t.c
Either you counted the base TWICE...or what im assuming happened is you wrongly assumed they rolled full WP on there 2D10. It should instead be 10 (as in the average) reducing there total WP to 65 not 75.

[Surrealistik]

Well then your calculations are off.

You had 20 (base) + 30 Darkholder e.t.c
Either you counted the base TWICE...or what im assuming happened is you wrongly assumed they rolled full WP on there 2D10. It should instead be 10 (as in the average) reducing there total WP to 65 not 75.

Perhaps that isn't the most intuitive way of breaking it down (I copy/pasted from Ranos' earlier breakdown), but it is accurate.

You have a base of 20 + 5 (Void Born) + 5 (Darkholder) + 20 (Rolls/Point Buy).

[profitofrage]

Ah true there is always point buy. I forget that people do use Point buy in DH simply because I never use it. Personally I think allowing Point buy is just encouraging players to optimise rather then make a character.

[Sarco_Phage]

Ah true there is always point buy. I forget that people do use Point buy in DH simply because I never use it. Personally I think allowing Point buy is just encouraging players to optimise rather then make a character.

Dude dude don't open that can of worms here, haha

[The Glyphstone]

Well then your calculations are off.

You had 20 (base) + 30 Darkholder e.t.c
Either you counted the base TWICE...or what im assuming happened is you wrongly assumed they rolled full WP on there 2D10. It should instead be 10 (as in the average) reducing there total WP to 65 not 75.

technically, the average of 2d10 is 11, not 10.
[/pedant]

And with the 'swap any two stats, re-roll one stat' - it's fair to assume they get at least a 15 in WP, though 20 is pushing it.

[profitofrage]

Dude dude don't open that can of worms here, haha

Old Imperial Guard Veteran: "Can o' worms...CAN O WORMS?! Back in MY day opening a can of worms was called LUNCHTIME..you recruits these days dont know how lucky you got it...I remember fighting against Orcs covered in armor and spiky helmets...You lot get to fight em wearing nothing but OVERALLS!"


But seriously, Why not open up that can of worms? I personally dislike point buy. If I absolutly had to babysit my players id let them arrange what they rolled to the stats they wanted..but point buy?....I mean in D&D sure..that games all about optimisation and not being useless (I am totally and completly talking out my ass on this...since ive never so much as looked at a single book of D&D). But DH has options for everyone.

[Sarco_Phage]

No, no, not the point-buy versus rollin' can, the "effective character sheets vs. good characters" can, hehe

[Leon]

You misunderstand. Space Marines hit and kill thigns... AND NOTHING ELSE. No RP, no schemeing, no nothing. You just kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill......

If you are looking for a game where Space marines engage in High Tea & polite conversation i suggest looking elsewhere - This is a game that is about Killing Xenos Things with Big Armored Super Humans.

[Yuki Akuma]

But seriously, Why not open up that can of worms? I personally dislike point buy. If I absolutly had to babysit my players id let them arrange what they rolled to the stats they wanted..but point buy?....I mean in D&D sure..that games all about optimisation and not being useless (I am totally and completly talking out my ass on this...since ive never so much as looked at a single book of D&D). But DH has options for everyone.

"Effective character means bad roleplayed character" is a horrible fallacy that insults every single person on this board who likes to play effectively.

That's the can of worms. Don't open it.

[profitofrage]

"Effective character means bad roleplayed character" is a horrible fallacy that insults every single person on this board who likes to play effectively.

That's the can of worms. Don't open it.

No no see what I mean is that a character in DH can be effective in so many ways I dont see the need for a point buy unless you want to be overly effective in one thing (optimisation?)

[Mr.Bookworm]

So you need to roll at least one 20 on 2d10*6 during chargen to get the 75WP, then.

Marabas is still a punk.

Yes, he's a total punk because a max level psyker using a obscure homeworld (and Living Nightmare, which I have no idea what that is) with max stats using probably the most broken power in the game can kill him. Totally.

But, yes, I'll concede the point. Still probably his plan if you kill him, though.

[Yuki Akuma]

No no see what I mean is that a character in DH can be effective in so many ways I dont see the need for a point buy unless you want to be overly effective in one thing (optimisation?)

Sure.

But see the thing is just because someone over optimises their character it doesn't mean they're not playing a well-rounded personality.

[profitofrage]

Thats true but I still dont see the need for it. Especially since DH optimisation involves taking background packages that imply sometimes strongly the sort of character you should be playing. So for every bit of optimisation theres that little bit of "character" there effectivly giving up in favor of the prewritten backgrounds (although most of those background ideas are infact...awesome)
I suppose in the end I see optimisation as needless in DH and so why encourage it with a point buy? since although optimisation doesnt = bad characters it certainly doesnt encourage good ones, where as i think random stats does. Its mostly an opinion thing and by all means not the rule.


Also...we all know theres only one mortal capable of besting any Lord of Change in terms of planning...and thats one tactical genious by the name of Leman Russ Battle tank.


huh? that was wierd i was meant to say....huh..WAIT!...CREEEEEEEED!

[Leon]

No no see what I mean is that a character in DH can be effective in so many ways I dont see the need for a point buy unless you want to be overly effective in one thing (optimisation?)

There is creating a effective character and then the next step is optimization which is often unneeded and over hyped.

[The Glyphstone]

Optimizing is being good at something. Min-maxing is being good at something to the exclusion of everything else.

[Surrealistik]

Yes, he's a total punk because a max level psyker using a obscure homeworld (and Living Nightmare, which I have no idea what that is) with max stats using probably the most broken power in the game can kill him. Totally.

But, yes, I'll concede the point. Still probably his plan if you kill him, though.

You don't need max stats; it just makes your vulgar display of power that much more awesome.

[Lycan 01]

Of course, a lot of this is still up the GM. He can always so now to taking those background packages, and prevent the player from powergaming like that.

And also, if a frickin' Lord of Change has materialized, then the Warp in that area will be very unstable. At best, Psychic Phenomenon will be happening on every 7+ roll, as per the effect of "Weaken the Veil." At worst, then every power the Psyker uses will cause a Psychic Phenomenon or worse. Plus, its a Lord of Change - masters of Sorcery and the changing nature of the Warp. The GM could reasonably give it some cheap Psychic Resistance boosts or straight up immunity to certain Psyker powers. And also, they can't be permanently killed! One of the Grey Knights - Brother Captain Stern, IIRC - has been fighting and killing the same Lord of Change for centuries, in a sick game of cat and mouse orchestrated by said Lord of Change. I mean, beyond finding some way to Bind him or permanently Banish him, there's no real way to actually stop its plans by directly "killing" it...

Plus, if Psykers are so broken, the GM can always just ban them.

[Ranos]

Well, Marabas has every psyker and sorcery power available, so he can use Weaken Veil if he wants to. On the other hand, Holocaust, a power available to normal DH psykers, can explicitly kill anything, including daemons, forever. I'm sure Ascended psykers must have a few more ways to do that too.

Plus, if Psykers are so broken, the GM can always just ban them.

I'd say this is the way to go. Ban the psyker class. If you still want to play a psyker, you can go Hive Mutant with the Wyrdling mutation, or go Wyrd, or mid-rank Adept, or make a sorcerer, or hell even use spook, or a combination of the above. Those work perfectly fine without being psyker-broken.

Unlike in D&D where getting rid of magic users wrecks the game, psykers are not necessary to a DH cell.

[Ceridan]

Psykers can be dangerous, very dangerous, but the psychic phenomena and perils of the warp make them at least think twice before they use their powers. Sure they can, at higher levels find ways and talents to diminish that to a degree, but still one bad roll can kill the psyker, or at least soak up their Fate pool. That said, DH is generally an undercover, behind the scenes of society, at least to the common masses, investigations game. Psykers should be using their power sparingly and cleverly, not throwing lightning where everyone can see.

As a GM, there are other ways to minimize them if the story calls for it. Nulls, puritan witch hunters and other psykers for instance. A good GM can role with the punches and should be able to handle it. Psykers are part of the fabric of the grimdark universe of the far future. Stripping them out is a disservice to the setting in my opinion. If your party Psyker is getting too big for his britches just use the setting. Angry mobs with burning sticks and large stones should put him/her back on the path of the straight and narrow, or into an early grave.