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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    I'm curious, why Inherent bonuses to the stats?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I'm curious, why Inherent bonuses to the stats?
    Enhancement would suck, and sacred/profane/whatever wouldn't make sense. I could call them class bonuses, but inherent is there to indicate they are a permanent part of the Ascendant as a result of his heritage manifesting itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton View Post
    I reread it.
    If you still don't understand how the spell-like abilities work, I'm not sure I can help you.

    And It's not terrible brokenness, thats just it. It's not min-max. Which is usually what break things. It's max-min, with the min at a point what you would otherwise have to min-max for.
    I see you aren't familiar with my design philosophy. Classes should not have to pull out cheese to be able to be in the same party as a wizard and not cry themselves to sleep. Does this mean making tier 1 classes? No. Does it mean making high tier 3 classes that have more options than "I power attack for full"? Better believe it.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2011-03-20 at 05:36 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    I am all for that principle. ToB and MoI are my favored books, don't get me wrong.
    It's doing that and adding in stuff that are each worth a couple of feats or a LA is what rubs me the wrong way.
    It isn't any of them in and of itself, though I find the damage die on the breath over top.
    It's that you get so many (very good) extra's that the extra's are a class of their own.

    And I get how the spell progression works. I simply forgot to count it from the ground up.
    Last edited by Escheton; 2011-03-20 at 05:48 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    At 8th level, a 6d6 breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds averages out to 14.4 damage per round, consumes an action that could be used to attack, offers a reflex save for half.

    At 20th level, a 15d6 breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds averages out to 36 damage per round, consumes an action that could be used for any number of things, and offers a reflex save for half.

    At 15th level, a Dragonfire Adept pauses, looks at the Ascendant, looks at his enemies, looks back at the Ascendant, looks back at his enemies, then breathes five breath weapons that deal a total of 35d6 damage. This damage increases exponentially if the Adept has any sense at all and has a Dragonflame Cincture, and also increases with level.

    The Adept can do this every other round, and continue to use his normal breath weapon on the off rounds.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2011-03-20 at 05:51 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    How many hp does the average DA have? Because that breathshape has some restrictions and side effects.
    For one, and this I find very important, you can't be good.
    Ow, and it deals at least 60 dmg to the neutral DA, 30 for evil.
    And it's a full round action, giving everyone around the DA ample time to get to da choppa.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton View Post
    How many hp does the average DA have? Because that breathshape has some restrictions and side effects.
    Somewhere between "fifty-foot thick brick wall" and "good lord, he's still standing? But that was a tac nuke!"

    For one, and this I find very important, you can't be good.
    Irrelevant to the point I was making in regards to breath weapon power.

    Ow, and it deals at least 60 dmg to the neutral DA, 30 for evil.
    "Darn. I only have four hundred hitpoints left. Somebody get ready to heal me."

    And it's a full round action, giving everyone around the DA ample time to get to da choppa.
    You seem to be confusing a full-round action and a 1-round casting time.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    So I was.

    35d6 is an insane amount of damage to something caught at the spots where all lines and cones intersect.
    It seems to be the non-good overkill approach versus the non-evil desintegrate-ish approach as 2 sides to dealing with energy resist and immunity that becomes more and more common as you enter the upper regions of the lvl range.

    Something a class that has 1 trick, which would otherwise be increasingly useless, needs.

    Up untill that point( which all familiar with the game know is where things get insanely powerfull and insanely difficult fast), the damage and breath abilities scale nicely.
    Last edited by Escheton; 2011-03-20 at 06:59 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Dragonfire Adept gets a d8 hitdice and is primarily Con with a side order of Cha. If you're optimising you'll be starting the game with...probably about 24 Con (18+2 (Dragonborn*)+4 (Mongrelfolk), likely offsetting some of the Cha damage with the Magic-Blooded template too). Str, Dex, Int and Wis are all peripherally important. You're going to be pumping Con like nobody's business since it keeps you alive and makes your primary weapon get resisted less.

    Thus, your health will be massive, especially in comparison to others in your group. This, combined with the Draconic Toughness Greater Invocation, the use of slowing effects (Slow Breath, Entangling Exhalation, Chilling Fog etc.) and the Humanoid Shape Invocation allows you to avoid getting hit quite well and have the temporary HP to eat it even if you do.

    Fivefold and Discorporating are quite clearly opposites to each other, but Discorporating isn't even on the same page as Fivefold with damage potential. If you want to avoid energy resistance, you'll spend your 20th level breath effect on Force Breath. Discorporating is just embarassing.

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    *I can't be the only person who houserules that either a) Dragonborn don't need to stay good or b) You can be a Dragonborn of Tiamat.
    You aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton
    Something a class that has 1 trick, which would otherwise be increasingly useless, needs.
    *looks at DFA class table*

    *reads next few pages*

    *looks down*

    *looks up*

    ...are we reading the same book?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    *I'm on a horse*

    Dragon Magic yeah.

    What? Instill vulnerability?
    The invocation that lets you deal double damage with an energytype by spending a standard action to let a non-immune foe within 30ft make a fort save?

    Trade off.
    It helps you deal with resistant foes better but with decent chance of failure and with the expenditure of a standard action and the allocation of aggro.


    Or am I missing something else that you care to enlighten me with?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton View Post
    Or am I missing something else that you care to enlighten me with?
    My personal favorite that you're missing is the DFA's ability to use Geas/Quest as a standard action.

    But now we're headed way off on a tangent. I originally brought up the DFA to compare breath weapons, not because I meant to compare the classes themselves. I think I've already made my opinion on the relationship of the two quite clear, and further discussion is, frankly, better suited for another thread.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    I must say the replies here have been... Extremely amusing. To say the least.

    I think the biggest thing is that some people think optimization is bad? Being the best you can be is no worse that making a class solely on a ridiculous concept(e.g a kobold farmer with NPC classes in a campaign with CoDzilla)

    Thinking optimization is bad is just not being able to DM to higher standards.

    Anyway, for the wings of the ancestor do you need the special armor that most half dragons do? Or is it a magical conj effect?

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfstone View Post
    Anyway, for the wings of the ancestor do you need the special armor that most half dragons do? Or is it a magical conj effect?
    It's Magic™! It doesn't ruin your armor, and it doesn't require special armor to use.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Other classes that I've seen that offer bonuses to stats don't give a type. I'm not saying that Inherent is a poor choice or anything, I was merely curious. Its a little different, really, and I kinda like it. Not having to buy 4 different stat books (unless you reeeeeally want the +5) means thats up to 440,000gp that could go elsewhere.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Blood of the Ancients (Ex): At 1st level, the latent draconic power in the Ascendant's blood activates, granting him some measure of insight into the Great Prophecies. When and how an Ascendant's draconic heritage manifests varies wildly; for some, it occurs at asolescence. Others could live decades of their lives without knowing of their heritage before finally discovering the strange knowledge of the Prophecies in their dreams. Regardless, once the power awakens, its effects are immediate.
    What are these Prophecies you speak of?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    To me this feels like a fairly balanced tier 2, maybe high tier 3 if you want to argue. They're about as good in melee combat as anyone can be outside of the cheezy uber-charger builds, have minor spellcasting capabilities, and several other bonuses and tricks to round things out. Definitely not at the same level as a wizard or CoD, but seems to be solidly above the Swordsage.

    Regarding the fluff issue: most of the time it's a good idea to leave things vague, but here you have multiple references to the "Prophecies" and implications that the class is designed to fulfill a specific purpose of be a member of a specific organization, but no real information. It's a lot easier when you're working with anything more specific than "fighter" or "wizard" to modify existing fluff rather than invent your own from scratch such that it happens to match the references in the class features. This is like if the Druid had the word "nature" edited out of their description.
    Last edited by Sindri; 2011-03-20 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Overall, I really like it.

    I do think it is a little too powerful, but for a very minor reason. I'm all for optimization and character specialization, but this class doesn't seem to really allow for it due to the fact that you cannot truly get any better in a given area that the class gives you. I personally play Pathfinder over 3.5 simply because many of the classes were given lots of choice - many different ways a player can grow their characters specialization within the given base class. Prestige classes were more for the set-in-stone increases and directions.
    This probably is just a difference in design style.

    But, my only suggestion to address my thought is also simple: I'd just drop the BAB to 15/lvl20 and the caster level max to 5 - while adding a class feature somewhere which allows them to focus on one or the other, raising the caster level to 7 or the BAB to 20. Not only would that solve the balance/specialization issue, but I honestly think that would draw more players to the class as well.
    Again, it may just be a difference in design philosophy.

    EDIT: I also agree with some minor fluff. You reference some pretty specific things in your abilities, so fleshing them out a bit doesn't hurt.
    Last edited by Sciran; 2011-03-20 at 06:23 PM.

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    smile Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    I think this class is perfect the way it is and is awesome I plan on using it in my next campaign

    and i agree with Elfstone that the replys are very amusing to say the least
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ph@$3 View Post
    I think this class is perfect the way it is and is awesome I plan on using it in my next campaign

    and i agree with Elfstone that the replys are very amusing to say the least
    Thank you.

    I also agree with the perfection statement.
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    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2011-03-21 at 06:28 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    It looks somewhere around tier 2.5 or high tier 3. It's stronger than a duskblade (note that Full Attack arcane channeling only applies a touch spell once to each target hit by it... so either you're splitting your attack against multiple weak enemies or its just touch spell + 2 to 3 attacks), but I've seen duskblades rated from as high as mid tier 3 to barely tier 3 so that might still just place it as high tier 3.

    Would I allow it in a game I ran? If I was aiming at fairly high powered, then probably (because it is dragon flavored). If I wasn't? I'm used to players who run from negative optimization to moderate optimization. No real caster exploits, no playing tier 1s to their potential, and groups that a warblade is the most powerful party member by far in simply because you can't mess up a warblade. I wouldn't allow this with that kind of group because it is stronger out of the box than Core WotC (although an optimized caster laughs at them and wins, most people I know shouldn't play wizards... they always prepare the same spells and try and ban divination too).

    Actually my biggest problem with it is the fluff... why tie in the Draconic Prophecies from Eberron? The lack of fluff is fine, I like it in fact, but why tie in the Draconic Prophecies.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Just gonna throw out that this REALLY isn't all that strong. =\

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    It looks somewhere around tier 2.5 or high tier 3. It's stronger than a duskblade (note that Full Attack arcane channeling only applies a touch spell once to each target hit by it... so either you're splitting your attack against multiple weak enemies or its just touch spell + 2 to 3 attacks), but I've seen duskblades rated from as high as mid tier 3 to barely tier 3 so that might still just place it as high tier 3.
    Tier 2 is a psion looking at you funny and you having a strange urge to impale yourself on your weapon. To potentially everything he sees. And then going and doing a bunch of other awesome stuff with his dozens of other powers. I'm just saying.

    Actually my biggest problem with it is the fluff... why tie in the Draconic Prophecies from Eberron? The lack of fluff is fine, I like it in fact, but why tie in the Draconic Prophecies.
    Unless you're playing in Eberron, they mean whatever the DM wants them to mean. Even if you're playing in Eberron, they're not all that out of place.

    As for why?

    If I had said "Once per week the Draconic Ascendant can use Commune as a spell-like ability" or "The Draconic Ascendant is never flatfooted and always acts in surprise rounds" I would have a dozen people clamoring for my reasoning for giving them those abilities.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2011-03-20 at 07:31 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    This class looks pretty cool. I like pretty much everything you have implemented here.

    A thought; since you state that the Draconic Ascendant gains Energy Resistance depending on his breath weapon, maybe when he uses Five Fold Breath he gains resistance to those energy types for one or two rounds?
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfstone View Post
    I must say the replies here have been... Extremely amusing. To say the least.

    I think the biggest thing is that some people think optimization is bad? Being the best you can be is no worse that making a class solely on a ridiculous concept(e.g a kobold farmer with NPC classes in a campaign with CoDzilla)

    Thinking optimization is bad is just not being able to DM to higher standards.
    Well, I'm so happy that I "amused" you, but I never said optimization is inherently bad. I said that no one I play with optimizes the way that would be required for this class to be balanced. There is a difference between believing there is something wrong with the concept of optimization, and simply having players that don't do it.

    As far as it making me a "bad DM," I have better things to do with my time than learn how to optimize characters beyond the level needed to challenge my players. It does not make you a better DM to be able to optimize characters heavily. It makes you a person who has wasted a lot of time on a skill that is unnecessary.

    I'm sure that in some play environments, this class is perfectly balanced with other characters that see play. It would not be in my game. That is not the fault of the creator, it is clearly what she intended. She intended a class that could, out-of-the-box, compete with an optimized version of another class. Since those optimized versions will never come up in my game, however, this class has no place in my game. Once I realized that, I acknowledged that my method of gaming is no better than hers and moved on.

    But the stereotype that anyone who doesn't optimize to your level is only interested in playing a kobold farmer is a strawman and an insult. It's also the perfection fallacy; if I don't optimize as much as humanly possible, I must be completely uninterested in mechanical effectiveness. But that's not true; it is possible to have some interest in it, just not enough to learn all the tricks that the internet has come up with to break the system.

    So I kindly ask you to avoid any more derailing of Jarian's thread with sideways attacks on my largely unrelated viewpoints.

    (I also apologize to her for derailing myself, but I didn't appreciate coming back into a thread and seeing people laughing at me for holding opinions on play style that aren't the same as their own.)
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Kobold Farmer is powerful. Seriously, it's one of the strongest things in Core that isn't a full caster.

    What the heck are you talking about SPoD. Seriously. <__< It's like you don't know how to optimize.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Let's please not turn this into an optimizers vs. non-optimizers discussion, guys. There are a few thousand of those threads in the roleplaying section if you want to get it out of your systems.

    For what it's worth, I agree with SPoD and her conclusions. This class isn't - and never was meant to be - a perfect fit for all groups.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    What's the caster level for the Draconic Ascendant's spell-like abilities?

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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.
    Equal to hit dice.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Draconic Ascendant [PEACH!]

    Trying it. (I doubt I"ll be able to give you any feedback, since the character it's being used with happens to be a tristalt, but...)

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