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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    And I'm saying that in all this time, the fact that I hold all the character sheets has never become a problem in gameplay. If anything, it probably helps the players think from the point of view of a narrative instead of a series of number crunches.
    "It would be great narratively for me to take a running start and jump this gorge. However, I am the puny Wizard and I know that is stupid because I will fail."

    The numbers are there to mimic how well any character is at doing something realistically.
    Last edited by Cartigan; 2011-03-29 at 02:20 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    And I'm saying that in all this time, the fact that I hold all the character sheets has never become a problem in gameplay. If anything, it probably helps the players think from the point of view of a narrative instead of a series of number crunches.
    If things continue to not work the way you want them to work in terms of player involvement, could it be possible that there are gameplay issues? I mean...why are you asking for any DMing advice if you know it isn't a gameplay or mechanical issue on your end?

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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankadin View Post
    I mean...why are you asking for any DMing advice if you know it isn't a gameplay or mechanical issue on your end?
    ...because there are aspects to DMing besides the mechanical? Because I actually consider the mechanics of gaming to be completely secondary to the narrative?

    The issue I had when I posted here was lack of player participation in generating the basis of the narrative. Which, by the way, was resolved half a week ago and people keep posting.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post

    The issue I had when I posted here was lack of player participation in generating the basis of the narrative. Which, by the way, was resolved half a week ago and people keep posting.
    Which, to be fair, you should probably know is going to happen by now when all the other threads I've seen by you in the past went pretty much the same way.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-03-29 at 02:53 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Which, to be fair, you should probably know is going to happen by now when all the other threads I've seen by you in the past went pretty much the same way.
    Well I'm used to the criticism, and in some ways I actually enjoy it since at least some of it is lessons I'm actually interested in learning. I just get irritated when people keep offering advice on a problem that no longer exists.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Well I'm used to the criticism, and in some ways I actually enjoy it since at least some of it is lessons I'm actually interested in learning. I just get irritated when people keep offering advice on a problem that no longer exists.
    Well, people sometimes tend to reject the OP's reality and substitute their own.

    Were I in your game, I would like to have my own character sheet though.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    ...because there are aspects to DMing besides the mechanical? Because I actually consider the mechanics of gaming to be completely secondary to the narrative?
    Then you don't understand what a game is. If your primary purpose is to play a game, bust out the rules and play. If your primary purpose is to tell a story, write a book.

    There's a reason we don't describe it as "telling a game".

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Well I'm used to the criticism, and in some ways I actually enjoy it since at least some of it is lessons I'm actually interested in learning. I just get irritated when people keep offering advice on a problem that no longer exists.
    Your perception of which problems exist, and which lessons need learning may not match those of others. Such is life. And when a large number of people happen to share opinions that are contrary to yours, re-evaluation of why you hold those opinions is generally wise.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    ...because there are aspects to DMing besides the mechanical? Because I actually consider the mechanics of gaming to be completely secondary to the narrative?

    The issue I had when I posted here was lack of player participation in generating the basis of the narrative. Which, by the way, was resolved half a week ago and people keep posting.
    Though if it is a recurring problem, as it seems to be, people are validly offering a potential reason. Your players don't offer involved narratives/backstories because they don't feel attached to their characters. Killer DM style, or lack thereof aside, it's quite possible that if they had physical character sheets to take care of or even just hold at the tabletop, it'd feel more like 'theirs'.

    Consider it, at least. Just because it's never been a problem for you before, doesn't mean it can't be an improvement.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Though if it is a recurring problem, as it seems to be, people are validly offering a potential reason. Your players don't offer involved narratives/backstories because they don't feel attached to their characters.
    I think it's more because I was doing things backwards. I went to them asking for rounded characters in hopes that I would find plot hooks inside, when I should've been asking for plot hooks in hopes that I would find rounded characters inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Then you don't understand what a game is. If your primary purpose is to play a game, bust out the rules and play. If your primary purpose is to tell a story, write a book.
    Books aren't interactive. I'm here to roleplay, not rollplay.

    Your perception of which problems exist, and which lessons need learning may not match those of others. Such is life.
    Perception is irrelevent in this context. The thread had a stated purpose, and it continued on after that stated purpose was accomplished.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2011-03-29 at 03:24 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Books aren't interactive. I'm here to roleplay, not rollplay.
    This is a phrase I wish would die a horrible death.

    Look at the words, though. They include the word "play". Not the word "tell". You and your players should be playing a game first. The story exists to enhance the game, not the other way around.

    Perception is irrelevent in this context. The thread had a stated purpose, and it continued on after that stated purpose was accomplished.
    Welcome to the internet. Starting a thread doesn't let you dictate terms of posting.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Books aren't interactive. I'm here to roleplay, not rollplay.
    You don't seem to be terribly interested in doing either. But maybe d20 REALLY isn't the system for you.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    This is a phrase I wish would die a horrible death.

    Look at the words, though. They include the word "play". Not the word "tell". You and your players should be playing a game first. The story exists to enhance the game, not the other way around.
    You're entitled to your wrong opinion. I play DnD to tell a story. One I don't nessicarily know how it will play out. Think of it like improv theatre.

    Welcome to the internet. Starting a thread doesn't let you dictate terms of posting.
    No, but it does let me get irritated and request a thread close when the discussion is rendered irrelevent.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2011-03-29 at 03:34 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    You're entitled to your wrong opinion. I play DnD to tell a story. One I don't nessicarily know how it will play out. Think of it like improv theatre.
    Did you think of playing games in the storytelling system instead?

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartigan View Post
    Did you think of playing games in the storytelling system instead?
    I do that as well. But those things tend not to have a narrator and, with inexperienced roleplayers, leaves a lot of freedom to godmod. I like DnD because it gives definite parameters to what a character can do within the confines of a story.
    MUNDUM MENTI
    Since I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

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    Monster Manual
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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    I do that as well. But those things tend not to have a narrator and, with inexperienced roleplayers, leaves a lot of freedom to godmod. I like DnD because it gives definite parameters to what a character can do within the confines of a story.
    Provided any player is actually aware of what his character can do.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartigan View Post
    Provided any player is actually aware of what his character can do.
    My players don't have the memory span of a goldfish. They don't need their sheets in front of their noses at all time to remember something like "I am good at jumping." Beyond that, since I never tell them the DCs for anything, all they really need to know is if a particular attempt succeeds or fails.
    MUNDUM MENTI
    Since I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

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  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    You're entitled to your wrong opinion. I play DnD to tell a story. One I don't nessicarily know how it will play out. Think of it like improv theatre.
    See, I've done theater. I wouldn't consider D&D to be particularly close to even improv theater.

    You don't play D&D to tell a story. That's a contradiction in terms. Playing D&D is something done cooperatively. Telling is something done from one individual to others. You can create a story together via gameplay, but you do not tell a story to others, unless you toss the game out the window. In that case, you are no longer playing a game.

    As a rule of thumb, if the invite pitch for your game is "let's play D&D", then you have promised a game, and should follow through. If you have said "come over, and I'll tell you a story", then by all means, tell a tale. But don't promise one and do the other.

    No, but it does let me get irritated and request a thread close when the discussion is rendered irrelevent.
    Anyone can request thread closures, with sufficient reason. Personally, I don't see why "it irritates me and is not about the things I want" is a good reason to close a thread, but eh, I'm not a mod, so this sort of thing is not of importance to me. But the thing is, every time you open a thread anywhere, you're going to get a wild variety or responses. That's how discussion works. Trying to squelch it and open a brand new thread is unlikely to make people post the things you want.
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    My players don't have the memory span of a goldfish. They don't need their sheets in front of their noses at all time to remember something like "I am good at jumping." Beyond that, since I never tell them the DCs for anything, all they really need to know is if a particular attempt succeeds or fails.
    Which is obviously going to fall by the wayside if the "story" calls for something different than what they should have made.

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    And yet in the two dozen or so sessions I've run since I started doing this I've never had a problem. (Discounting the whole "lost all my campaign data when my hard drive died" thing, which is not much different than leaving paper character sheets where your dog can get to them.)
    You've never had a problem except for that one time when your computer crashed and you lost everyone's character sheets, plus all of your campaign notes?

    Well, I would say it's a little different. I've lost/destroyed character sheets before. I've never had a a dog eat my campaign before. System crashes have certainly hurt a couple of things, but I've never had every single piece of important information in one single corruptable file before either...

    so, I'm not sure it can be compared.

    Unless you've got some James Bond kind of dog that is hell bent on destroying every piece of a campaign ever created. I guess I could see that.

    Perhaps a dog with Geas cast on him or something, that goes to all my player's houses and eats their character sheets, and then comes to my house and crashes my computer and then proceeds to chomp down on all of my notes...

    Oh and he somehow deletes my Mythweavers and Hotmail accounts as well.

    Yep... exactly like a dog to do that.

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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    You don't play D&D to tell a story.
    You don't play DnD to tell a story. I do.

    Playing D&D is something done cooperatively. Telling is something done from one individual to others. You can create a story together via gameplay, but you do not tell a story to others, unless you toss the game out the window. In that case, you are no longer playing a game.
    Where did you come to the conclusion that I was the only one involved in telling the story? If that were true, yes, I would be off working on my webcomic instead. (Especially considering running this campaign takes up a lot of the creative energy I could be using on that.)

    Personally, I don't see why "it irritates me and is not about the things I want" is a good reason to close a thread, but eh, I'm not a mod, so this sort of thing is not of importance to me.
    "Thread closed by OP request" is a valid reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillycomic View Post
    You've never had a problem except for that one time when your computer crashed and you lost everyone's character sheets, plus all of your campaign notes?
    Well, no. I just lost all my PC and NPC character sheets. All of my "campaign notes" exist exclusively in my head, with the exception of a few documents saying "this is the name of this town and the important people living there" since I can't be bothered to remember a hundred names crudely translated into French, Swedish, German and Latin.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2011-03-29 at 03:59 PM.
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    Since I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Then I don't get it.

    If your players know more or less what they have as far as skills, feats and such... it wouldn't take too long to rebuild all of their sheets. An hour or two at the most.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    "I play D&D to roleplay, not rollplay! I tell a story, I don't deal with numbers! Oops, I just lost a bunch of numbers. We can't play."

    Utterly ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillycomic View Post
    Then I don't get it.

    If your players know more or less what they have as far as skills, feats and such... it wouldn't take too long to rebuild all of their sheets. An hour or two at the most.
    Without looking at your sheet, can you tell me the attributes, skills, feats and equipment of a character of yours right now? Maybe you can, but I certainly couldn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    "I play D&D to roleplay, not rollplay! I tell a story, I don't deal with numbers! Oops, I just lost a bunch of numbers. We can't play."

    Utterly ridiculous.
    I didn't say I don't deal with numbers. I said the numbers were secondary to the narrative. That doesn't mean they're completely irrelevent.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2011-03-29 at 04:08 PM.
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    Since I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

    Books Owned:
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    Dungeon Master's Guide
    Monster Manual
    Monster Manual III
    Complete Adventurer
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    Libris Mortis
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    Planar Handbook
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    "Thread closed by OP request" is a valid reason.
    ...maybe until that request is granted, you might want to just stop checking this thread?

    If you have gotten everything out of it that you wanted, it's probably not worth your time to read it when it is clearly just irritating you.

    Just a bit of friendly advice - lord knows that particular strategy is how I escaped the Edition Warz intact
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2011-03-29 at 04:10 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Without looking at your sheet, can you tell me the attributes, skills, feats and equipment of a character of yours right now? Maybe you can, but I certainly couldn't.
    I can remember the key stuff, and am capable of filling in the blanks, should the worst case scenario happen. Losing my sheet(s) would be unpleasant, to say the least, but hardly end the campaign.

    I believe I am not the only one of this mindset.
    Last edited by Vladislav; 2011-03-29 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    ...maybe until that request is granted, you might want to just stop checking this thread?
    I've considered it, but I'm suffering from a spot of ennui at the moment and it at least occupies my attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    I can remember the key stuff, and am capable of filling in the blanks, should the worst case scenario happen. Losing my sheet(s) would be unpleasant, to say the least, but hardly end the campaign.

    I believe I am not the only one of this mindset.
    Regardless, the campaign was limping as it was. And based on the material I'm working with now, I think it's for the best that the last one blew up.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2011-03-29 at 04:14 PM.
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    Since I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

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    Dungeon Master's Guide
    Monster Manual
    Monster Manual III
    Complete Adventurer
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    Portland, Or
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Are you asking me as a player or as a GM?

    As a GM? Nope. I don't know what all of my players have in their character's attributes or skills or equipment or whatever.

    But as a player?

    Well, because I have my character sheet with me, and I look down at it to make all sorts of rolls and changes and such... yes I can tell you within a point or two what all of the attributes are, as well as what skills were important to me (maybe not exactly what skill ranks in every skill, but a good ball park figur)

    Equipment would be the worst, but then you can just give me WBL and I can build up the character from scratch with what I think he did have.

    But... if my GM never let me see my character sheet? Nope. I couldn't do any of that.

  28. - Top - End - #148
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    San Jose, CA

    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    In that case, admit the truth. The computer malfunction was not the reason the campaign ended, just a convenient excuse. And the campaign was limping because ... and now we have come full circle to the various issues of "storytelling" that you inflict on your players.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Drakevarg's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Vvardenfell
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillycomic View Post
    Well, because I have my character sheet with me, and I look down at it to make all sorts of rolls and changes and such... yes I can tell you within a point or two what all of the attributes are, as well as what skills were important to me (maybe not exactly what skill ranks in every skill, but a good ball park figur)

    Equipment would be the worst, but then you can just give me WBL and I can build up the character from scratch with what I think he did have.
    Assuming of course that I considered those acceptable parameters. Which I don't. Similarly if I'm playing chess and someone flips the board, I'm not going to allow them to put the pieces back "more or less" where they were before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    In that case, admit the truth. The computer malfunction was not the reason the campaign ended, just a convenient excuse.
    I covered that in the first paragraph of the OP.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2011-03-29 at 04:19 PM.
    MUNDUM MENTI
    Since I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

    Books Owned:
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    Player's Handbook
    Dungeon Master's Guide
    Monster Manual
    Monster Manual III
    Complete Adventurer
    Complete Arcane
    Complete Divine
    Complete Warrior
    Draconomicon
    Frostburn
    Libris Mortis
    Lords of Madness
    Planar Handbook
    Sandstorm
    Savage Species
    Unearthed Arcana
    Races of the Dragon
    Races of Stone

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Tankadin's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Assuming of course that I considered those acceptable parameters. Which I don't. Similarly if I'm playing chess and someone flips the board, I'm not going to allow them to put the pieces back "more or less" where they were before.
    Only the people on the other side of the DM screen aren't opponents.

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