General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy

[Sanguine]

Lucus that is awesome.

Edit: Heroes can be Genre Savvy just look at Elan.

[Mikal]

Lucus that is awesome.

Edit: Heroes can be Genre Savvy just look at Elan.

I was being facetious :-p

[Sanguine]

I was being facetious :-p

Hard to tell sometimes with text.

[Yuki Akuma]

People don't tend to say "Feh!" when they're being serious, my sanguineous friend.

[Mikal]

People don't tend to say "Feh!" when they're being serious, my sanguineous friend.

You'll find the more flowery my prose, the less serious I am.
The more acerbic I am, the more serious I'm being.

Also, I'm not bloody :(

[Tackyhillbillu]

As for weaponry, training, and skill, they scavenge that which their betters left behind, things which their betters can easily recreate within a year or so's time, by the book.

Their Betters? The people that raped, killed and tortured them? Awesome definition there, buddy.

And I seriously doubt anyone can recreate the Legions without, you know, DBs. Since DBs are the best at mass combat, both in fluff, and in crunch.

...Yes, because the Primordial War totally was going against the Gods and Exalted, and only the effort of one of them stopped the Primordials and drove them back.

It was. In the early stages of the Primordial War, they lost all 10 of their Star Players (the Greater Elemental Dragons, who were all badly hurt, and the Original Elementals who all died.) The opening stages went poorly. The Incarnae only won because the Exalts were a homeroom.

Repeat after me: Comics aren't canon. Seeing as how there's nothing in the books saying he has, then he hasn't.

Also the Iconic Solar Circle doesn't mean they're the best Solar Circle. Or even a good Solar Circle.

Repeat after me. Scroll of Exalts stats. Peleps Deled destroys the Iconic Circle Solars. Hell, Ragara Myrrun could solo every Age of Sorrows Solar statted. At once.

[Sanguine]

You'll find the more flowery my prose, the less serious I am.
The more acerbic I am, the more serious I'm being.

Also, I'm not bloody :(

I'm the sanguineous friend, my username is Sanguine. Also I didn't see the "feh".

Anyway back on topic. We were discussing the heroicness of the Raksha. Is it all Raksha or a specific philosophy?

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, I'm not bloody :(

I wasn't talking to you.

Also technically speaking all shaped raksha are 'heroic' by the standards of Creation - they can affect the world.

[Mikal]

Their Betters? The people that raped, killed and tortured them? Awesome definition there, buddy.

Yes. Because that's all they did. They totally didn't create a near Utopia, and would have if not for the Curse.

And I seriously doubt anyone can recreate the Legions without, you know, DBs. Since DBs are the best at mass combat, both in fluff, and in crunch.

Hey I never said the DBs were useless. They're perfect cannon fodder for their betters.

It was. In the early stages of the Primordial War, they lost all 10 of their Star Players (the Greater Elemental Dragons, who were all badly hurt, and the Original Elementals who all died.) The opening stages went poorly. The Incarnae only won because the Exalts were a homeroom.

Uh huh. So the weapons that were planned to be used before the war, and were created in anticipation of the war and were always meant to be the weapons and main strike of the Gods... are an act of desperation. Uh.. huh.

Repeat after me. Scroll of Exalts stats. Peleps Deled destroys the Iconic Circle Solars. Hell, Ragara Myrrun could solo every Age of Sorrows Solar statted. At once.

I guess you neglected to read the part where I said Iconic Solars aren't really that strong compared to Solars that players can make, huh.

I wasn't talking to you.

Lies. It's all about me!

[Guancyto]

It should be noted that the fae are only fighting to retake their homeland, which the Primordials cluttered up with all that icky order and causality getting in the way of literally infinite possibility. And although it's a bit meaningless to compare timescale because there used to be no such thing as time, it's nothing less than the absolute truth to say that the Raksha were Here First.

Now, only a few fae are truly committed to this. The really hard-line members of the Church of Balor are the only ones that have managed to keep the goal in sight in the face of overwhelming apathy and subversion.

[Yuki Akuma]

Of course almost all of the shaped Raksha actually like being shaped. At least, to the extent that any Raksha likes anything. (Hint: They don't really have preferences, they just pretend they do.)

[Sanguine]

Yes. Because that's all they did. They totally didn't create a near Utopia, and would have if not for the Curse.

Pure conjecture. For one it assumes a Utopia is possible. For another Solar Exaltation can attach to bad people. Finally, we can't be certain all of the crazy comes from the Great Curse. Living for millennia has got to do some pretty weird stuff to your psyche. Though most of the crazy probably does come from the Curse.

[Guancyto]

Of course almost all of the shaped Raksha actually like being shaped. At least, to the extent that any Raksha likes anything. (Hint: They don't really have preferences, they just pretend they do.)

Yeah, and even the True Heroes get distracted for a while by inquisitions and purges of the unfaithful and the like. They're just such great fun!

Still, when you look at all the groups in the setting likely to ride a behemoth shaped like a giant robot with drills for hands, intent on piercing the heavens, there's a 90% chance it's going to be a Raksha. (The other 10% are divided between Infernals riding Qaf and Abyssals riding Hekatonkhire.) That gives them serious points for being the One True Only Correct Faction.

[Dragnar]

Still, when you look at all the groups in the setting likely to ride a behemoth shaped like a giant robot with drills for hands, intent on piercing the heavens, there's a 90% chance it's going to be a Raksha.

...this statement is, in the language of the interwebs: Made of Win. From now on, Raksha in my games power things with spiral energy, and their heart graces are drill cores.

[The_Snark]

Now, only a few fae are truly committed to this. The really hard-line members of the Church of Balor are the only ones that have managed to keep the goal in sight in the face of overwhelming apathy and subversion.

It's an addiction, I think, in much the same way that mortals can become addicted to the Wyld. It's dangerous and will unmake them if they aren't careful, but they just can't leave it alone.

Always thought that was a nice parallel.

Also, without getting too deep into the Immaculate Order debate, I think that the phrase a lot of people objected to was this:

The Order is tool of control after all, not a sincere religion.

The Immaculate Order is a tool of control, no denying it. That's what it was made for. But that doesn't mean it isn't also a sincere religion. Immaculate monks don't think of their doctrine as a lie. The Grandmasters of the Order themselves don't know of the religion's origins (except for the ones that are secretly Sidereals). The lamas, the abbots, the itinerant monks, all these people really believe in what they teach. It might have started as nothing more than a tool, but it's taken on a life of its own.

Now, whether the religion's teachings are true or ethical, that's another question—but the people teaching them are sincere.

[Indon]

To touch upon the original topic, about if the architects of the Realm would be interested in constructing the Immaculate Order in such a way as to prevent mortals from practicing a style they can fully master, I'd like to note that the Realm forbids thaumaturgy that can duplicate the powers of the Exalted. This law seems consistent with the policy of suppressing mortal power as much as possible while still making some use of them.

[Tavar]

The Lunar Elders are pulling the strings of Halta, and... I don't think they would. Because they are all just as nuts as he is. See Leviathin, that guy who is angry because the DBs killed his mate. Admiral Arkadi. Best known for raping female DBs under him, and then swearing them to silence with his Anima.

Well, it's also due to the fact that the DB's killed his love, Arkadi's Queen. Also, only two Elder's are involved with Halta, and so far they've been pretty hands off. In fact, it's been mostly beneficial, making sure that the nation isn't ganked off the bat by all the hostile forces out there.

And, again. It's explicitly stated. As in, if the lunar elders knew what Ma-Ha-Suchi was doing, they'd all realize that he's fallen to chimerism, and thus must be put down like the mad dog he is.

No, actually it is explicitly stated that the Realm is the most powerful force in the setting. If the Yozi were able to utilize their full powers, Malfeas would be. But they aren't.

Where does it state that?

In any case, the Realm couldn't fight off Malfeas. The reason Malfeas isn't fighting against them is that they can't due to their oaths, not that they fear the Realm's strength. And so far, the only confrontation we've seen between the Realm and the Underworld(thorns) has been a crushing defeat for the realm.

And no, the Mask wouldn't be able to. If you want to go by crunch, we can (the DBs can kill him. It would be long, and a pain in the ass, and plenty of them would die, but they would get him down.) If we want to go by Fluff? The DBs already did, and can again.

Oh really? He has a scene long perfect that doesn't count as a charm activation, and a charm that lets him attack all those nearby. Plus, all non-holy solar charms. As well as most Abyssal ones, and custom ghost charms.

Fluff wise, actually, he was never killed by the dragonblooded. He died in the hidden fortress.

Plus, for the usurpation, there were the Sidereals, which helped quite a bit. As well as the sheer numbers. But the number of dragonblooded, as well as their technology/infrastructure level has gone down significantly. Plus, well, they're just not as capable as solars or other celestials are.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Mask has a scene-long perfect that doesn't count as a charm activation, yes.

But it's not very good. Read Glories of the Most High: Unconquered Sun. It's in there.

Also, he doesn't have Solar charms that have Abyssal mirrors.

[Tavar]

I don't have that; what's wrong with it?

[WalkingTarget]

Well, the text given in the Abyssal book was "For three motes and one Willpower, he can perfectly parry any attack for the rest of the scene at a cost of three motes per attack. Such parries do not count as Charm usage." So it costs 3m1w to activate but then is equivalent to the Abyssal perfect parry charm usable reflexively without worrying about it taking a charm activation. I'd imagine that this would change at least to 4m per attack since the Errata changed Death-Deflecting Technique's activation cost.

The GotMH:TUS version, Charnel Emperor Stance, costs 15m1w and allows for the same innate usage of Death-Deflecting Technique, but only Essence*2 times in the scene before it wears off and has to be reactivated. It's also a Simple charm and so would have to be activated on an action before you actually need to defend in order to benefit from it. I'm not a 2nd edition expert (only played 1st), so I might have the timing mechanics wrong, though.

[Tael]

Wait, but can't any of the deathlords boost all of their dice pools so high that 99% of anything the DBs throw at them fail, and easily have enough motes to perfect the 1 in 100 attack that actually has a chance? Plus they never run out of motes with all the regain they have. And that's not even getting into their sorcery+necromancy, custom charms, and Sidereal Martial Arts. Plus the Mask of Winter just has to stand in the middle of a city and more than half of his enemies will just join his side. Combined with their army of dead stuff, I really don't see why the deathlords haven't won yet.

[Mr.Bookworm]

No, actually it is explicitly stated that the Realm is the most powerful force in the setting. If the Yozi were able to utilize their full powers, Malfeas would be. But they aren't.

They're the most powerful force in Creation. A very important distinction. If we removed all of the limitations and oaths keeping everyone from just having it out, the Yozis would probably win.

And no, the Mask wouldn't be able to. If you want to go by crunch, we can (the DBs can kill him. It would be long, and a pain in the ass, and plenty of them would die, but they would get him down.) If we want to go by Fluff? The DBs already did, and can again.

DBs cannot kill the Mask. Nobody currently alive can. Deathlords are absolutely ridiculously powerful, to the point where the Mask should be able to take over Creation. By himself. And he's not even the strongest of them.

Errata Team Prime is working on it, apparently.

[Tavar]

Problem of mechanics and such. There's a good essay on it, but essentially, they made the Deathlords too much of a threat.

[SurlySeraph]

I can explain the last part. Ghosts tend to be hidebound and stagnant. First Age Solars tended to be erratic disaster-causing lunatics. And to go along with the Neverborn, you'd have to be the most bitter, least devoted, and least courageous Solars around; even the likes of Desus had enough self-respect to take being reborn over debasing themselves to serve the broken Primordials crawling and whining for help. The Deathlords are the ghosts of the 13 biggest failures of the First Age, and by their nature as ghosts they will tend to continue being failures forever.

@V: Pretty sure they hinted at that and then ran away from it, unless there's a statement I haven't read somewhere. He's got enough dickishness and faux-benevolence, certainly.
EDIT: In RotSE? Damn, don't have my copy anymore. Could I get a quote?

[Mr.Bookworm]

I can explain the last part. Ghosts tend to be hidebound and stagnant. First Age Solars tended to be erratic disaster-causing lunatics. And to go along with the Neverborn, you'd have to be the most bitter, least devoted, and least courageous Solars around; even the likes of Desus had enough self-respect to take being reborn over debasing themselves to serve the broken Primordials crawling and whining for help. The Deathlords are the ghosts of the 13 biggest failures of the First Age, and by their nature as ghosts they will tend to continue being failures forever.

Desus is the Silver Prince.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Isn't Desus one of the Deathlords?

RotSE made it pretty obvious, even if it didn't exactly name names...

Edit: Darn White Veil Society.

[TheCountAlucard]

Problem of mechanics and such. There's a good essay on it, but essentially, they made the Deathlords too much of a threat.

Link?

[Tavar]

Deathlords are Overpowered.

There is it.

[Yuki Akuma]

That's not much of an essay.

[golentan]

Okay, how's this for an argument for why the deathlords are OP'd? The main difference that gives different groups advantages is their relative charm potency. Deathlords have solaroid charms (widely speaking the best of all available categories), including elder solaroid charms. The second decisive factor in any combat, then, is how many of those charms they can throw (I.E. how deep their mote pool goes). Death Lords have spirit sized mote pools, putting them above solaroids. Then we have to weigh in on peripheral powers. Deathlords can instakill so many things and have basically unlimited powers to do what they please with the denizens of the underworld. They can throw 25 die pools pre-magic. They have Sidereal Martial Arts, Void Circle necromancy, possibly still have Solar Sorcery.And of course, you can't kill them without massive hurdles. Ghost Eating Technique only slows them down.

Against this, we have the balancing factor that when they go out in creation proper they can only regain motes by drinking blood or ripping out the souls of nearby ghosts (oh, where could a supernatural powerhouse at the head of his own undead army *possibly* find blood or ghosts?) and some of their charms cost more.