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2011-03-24, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
I haven't played D&D for several years or been on this forum really until I "returned" yesterday. I have noticed since returning several mentions of classes or characters being tier 2 or 3 or 4 or something, but I have no idea what it means or where its coming from?
If anyone could find it in their heart to explain I'd be most grateful <3
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2011-03-24, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Tiers are levels. In most cases for D&D it's different levels of power for classes. This link is one of a few tier lists that exist. It's quite thorough regarding the breakdown of the tiers and why classes are in a specific tier.
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2011-03-24, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2011-03-24, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
To be more precise, tiers generally represent the about of options a given class has at any one time or how useful they are in X amount of situations as well as how useful they are in any given situation. As you move up to tier 1, both your overall power increases in a situation you can solve as well as the number of situations you can reasonably solve or at least contribute to solving.
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2011-03-24, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
The easiest way to think of them is as a sort of shorthand for discussions of a class or campaign's relative power level. There will inevitably be some quibbling over specifics, but it makes a convenient starting point for power discussions without needing a ton of caveats and examples.
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2011-03-24, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
To be honest, after having read through all of it I find it all rather silly. It's basically a guide to deal with munchkins/maxers, but any GM worth his/her salt can figure that out on his own.
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2011-03-24, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Yes but the short hand is nice for a few reasons
1)discussing fixes
2)helping you gauge a classes relative powerlevel if you have never seen in before.
3)Keeping a party at least close in relative power level. (It is very hard to keep a wizard down, or push a monk up with out homebrew)My homebrew
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2011-03-24, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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- USA MA
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
That's not quite true. Consider having a monk and a druid in the same party. Even an optimized monk and an unoptimzed druid aren't going to balance well with each other. The druid class is just too powerful to reasonably be in a party with the weak monk class in most cases (barring extreme optimizing or a really terrible druid). But assuming everyone optimizes about the same amount at a given gaming table, the classes become entirely unplayable together.
So it's good for the DM to know that ahead of time, and the tier system gives a good guideline for what you can probably expect in terms of power out of a class.
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2011-03-24, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree to some extent (extend?).
At higher levels, say 10/11+ for convenience sake, spellcasters do outgrow the martial classes overall, but at lower levels at the very least they are roughly equal, if not the monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.Real men don't squee!
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2011-03-24, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
You will find this a minority opinion on the boards. Monks get bonuses to moving quickly, but must stand in place to use their other class features. Druids can Entangle mobs of mooks that the party can then plink at with arrows/crossbow bolts/alchemist's fire etc, or can send in their animal companion to fight, or can fight alongside the animal companion, getting a flanking bonus that more than offsets their 3/4 BAB before taking magic into account.
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2011-03-24, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
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2011-03-24, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
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2011-03-24, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
WRONG, First level Druid owns First level Monk
What advantages do you see??
They have the same BaB, same HP, same Skill points, Monk's unarmed Strike is 1d6 at level 1 and Druid has plenty of weapons that deal 1d6 or greater, AC should be roughly the same depending on stat allocation Druid gets Armor, Shield and Dex to AC, Monk only gets Dex and Wis, Even with Monks flurry the Druid still gets more attacks per turn if you count his animal companion plus Druid gets Spells.
how do you see the monk being better??
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2011-03-24, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2011-03-24, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
The monk dies. Or he survives IF the druid (or the cleric) spare their awesome healing power AFTER the battle. Meanwhile, the druid flees and gets a new animal companion.
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2011-03-24, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2011-03-24, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
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2011-03-24, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
The list assumes relatively the same level of optimization, which does include gameplayer competence...
A poorly played druid can suck in an epic capacity; but it takes even less amounts of epic-suck to mess up the monk.
On the opposite end of that spectrum: a really well played, and optimized monk will be great and all... But he will still pale in comparison to the sheer awesome of the well played, and optimized druid.
The tiers are only marginalized when players are not bringing the same tools to the table. In one case the tiers can be dealt with because a poor player is playing a higher tier, while more experienced players are in the lower tiers. It really ends up being a problem when a poor player chooses a low tier class, and the experienced player pulls out the big guns. In that case, just hope your experienced player is nice enough to back off quite a bit to not steal the show.
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2011-03-24, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
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2011-03-24, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-03-24 at 05:30 PM.
Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
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2011-03-24, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Don't forget the potential free AoO for both you and the companion from the wolf (if that's what you chose for a companion) tripping your foe.
Edit: I forgot that a Flurrying monk will be attacking twice at -2 without stats taken into account. The druid doesn't take that penalty for his attack, and his animal companion gets one as well. Bare-bones fighting, even without spells, the druid fares better than the monk in combat encounters. So the druid can end two encounters per day gauranteed, and can still handle the rest of them better than the monk. The druids got a leg up in staying power for sure.
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2011-03-24, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
The problem I always had with tiers is all the assuming that goes on.
ASSUMING a wizard has every spell in the game in his/her spellbook, ASSUMING he/she has 8 hours foreknowledge of what he/she is about to face and ASSUMING he/she is max level, the wizard is the best class in the game. Never mind that the sorcerer is better equipped to deal with surprises, never mind that the sorcerer can still have access to every spell in the game via scrolls (which, remember, the wizard also had to buy to fill his spell book), never mind that the sorcerer has more spells per day and never mind that the wizard is incredibly squishy and can do nothing when his spells are gone at the earlier levels. The wizard is the best, definitely. 9.9Last edited by 3Power; 2011-03-24 at 05:54 PM.
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2011-03-24, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
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2011-03-24, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
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2011-03-24, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
A first level, non-specialist wizard will have at least two spells. One from class levels, one from high INT. A specialist wizard will have three. If said wizard has a 20 INT (doable with 28 point buy and race selection), there's an extra one. If he's a focused specialist, add 2 more. Plenty of spells there.
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2011-03-24, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Alright, fine, I'll admit that the core-book monk sucks utter donkeyballs (am I allowed to say that?). But what about a fighter or barbarian, surely none of you will argue a 1st level druid is more useful than a 1st level fighter at that level?
Real men don't squee!
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2011-03-24, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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2011-03-24, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
You will generally find that this board assumes that wizards are all taking the best possible spells (and that they can largely divination for what will be useful that day or something), that the fights take place in places where the environment does not matter much, and that the party can control engagements and timing.
Not every fight has grass for entangle to work on. You aren't being a scrooge of a DM if there's nothing TO entangle with. Web doesn't work everywhere either. Color spray requires you be pretty close (but is fierce because it can force several rough saves), but a CR 1/2 guy with a crossbow bolt and a readied action makes even that risky. Sleep and someone will often wake up your guy. Your enemies could have many MORE actions than you, or just one versus your whole parties. A lot of the balance discussions seem to assume that you are in some duel- I'm fine with every high level wizard winning every duel, ever. They have a class with abilities that are all about that, whatever. It's not duels, or 2v2 arena, that matter here, it's your role in the world, being a good contributor in and out of combat, etc.
I still find the tier list useful. I still find the board *very* useful, with such a ludicrous amount of help here that it's kind of shocking. But the ground rule assumptions here are very likely not like what your group uses. If you don't have problems with wizards summoning armies or whatever in your games, then don't sweat it.
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2011-03-24, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2011-03-24, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?
Let me put it this way, Wiz828: most of your concerns have already been brought up, and the majority of them were dealt with in the first posts of the Tier System thread. If you read that thread you'll get substantially more enlightened on the topic than if you merely ask us questions, unless all you want to do is have a repetitive argument.
Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-03-24 at 06:51 PM.
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