New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 44
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    I haven't played D&D for several years or been on this forum really until I "returned" yesterday. I have noticed since returning several mentions of classes or characters being tier 2 or 3 or 4 or something, but I have no idea what it means or where its coming from?

    If anyone could find it in their heart to explain I'd be most grateful <3

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Hyfigh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Tiers are levels. In most cases for D&D it's different levels of power for classes. This link is one of a few tier lists that exist. It's quite thorough regarding the breakdown of the tiers and why classes are in a specific tier.
    Last edited by Hyfigh; 2011-03-24 at 02:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Though, this is obviously a world in which Speak with Dead trivializes most murder investigations. It's not "Well, after spending an exhaustive amount of time searching the crime scene for evidence, I seem to have found some bat guano and- yadda yadda" it's "Steve did it. Go scry Steve"

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfigh View Post
    Tiers are levels. In most cases for D&D it's different levels of power for classes. This link is one of a few tier lists that exist. It's quite thorough regarding the breakdown of the tiers and why classes are in a specific tier.
    Wow, yes, that does seem very thorough. Thank you so much

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    To be more precise, tiers generally represent the about of options a given class has at any one time or how useful they are in X amount of situations as well as how useful they are in any given situation. As you move up to tier 1, both your overall power increases in a situation you can solve as well as the number of situations you can reasonably solve or at least contribute to solving.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


    Winner of Junkyard Wars 31.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    The easiest way to think of them is as a sort of shorthand for discussions of a class or campaign's relative power level. There will inevitably be some quibbling over specifics, but it makes a convenient starting point for power discussions without needing a ton of caveats and examples.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    To be honest, after having read through all of it I find it all rather silly. It's basically a guide to deal with munchkins/maxers, but any GM worth his/her salt can figure that out on his own.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Darth Stabber's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    To be honest, after having read through all of it I find it all rather silly. It's basically a guide to deal with munchkins/maxers, but any GM worth his/her salt can figure that out on his own.
    Yes but the short hand is nice for a few reasons
    1)discussing fixes
    2)helping you gauge a classes relative powerlevel if you have never seen in before.
    3)Keeping a party at least close in relative power level. (It is very hard to keep a wizard down, or push a monk up with out homebrew)
    My homebrew
    Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbook
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Did you just put a gear shift on a lightsaber?
    Redneck laser swords only work in manual.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goober4473's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    USA MA

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    To be honest, after having read through all of it I find it all rather silly. It's basically a guide to deal with munchkins/maxers, but any GM worth his/her salt can figure that out on his own.
    That's not quite true. Consider having a monk and a druid in the same party. Even an optimized monk and an unoptimzed druid aren't going to balance well with each other. The druid class is just too powerful to reasonably be in a party with the weak monk class in most cases (barring extreme optimizing or a really terrible druid). But assuming everyone optimizes about the same amount at a given gaming table, the classes become entirely unplayable together.

    So it's good for the DM to know that ahead of time, and the tier system gives a good guideline for what you can probably expect in terms of power out of a class.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goober4473 View Post
    That's not quite true. Consider having a monk and a druid in the same party. Even an optimized monk and an unoptimzed druid aren't going to balance well with each other. The druid class is just too powerful to reasonably be in a party with the weak monk class in most cases (barring extreme optimizing or a really terrible druid). But assuming everyone optimizes about the same amount at a given gaming table, the classes become entirely unplayable together.

    So it's good for the DM to know that ahead of time, and the tier system gives a good guideline for what you can probably expect in terms of power out of a class.

    I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree to some extent (extend?).

    At higher levels, say 10/11+ for convenience sake, spellcasters do outgrow the martial classes overall, but at lower levels at the very least they are roughly equal, if not the monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.
    Real men don't squee!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree to some extent (extend?).

    At higher levels, say 10/11+ for convenience sake, spellcasters do outgrow the martial classes overall, but at lower levels at the very least they are roughly equal, if not the monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.
    You will find this a minority opinion on the boards. Monks get bonuses to moving quickly, but must stand in place to use their other class features. Druids can Entangle mobs of mooks that the party can then plink at with arrows/crossbow bolts/alchemist's fire etc, or can send in their animal companion to fight, or can fight alongside the animal companion, getting a flanking bonus that more than offsets their 3/4 BAB before taking magic into account.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree to some extent (extend?).

    At higher levels, say 10/11+ for convenience sake, spellcasters do outgrow the martial classes overall, but at lower levels at the very least they are roughly equal, if not the monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.
    I must disagree. All of those spells can end encounters on their own. All are core. All are available at 3rd level or less. Hell, web can be dambed at 1st level with a feat from Complete Arcane.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


    Winner of Junkyard Wars 31.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    ...monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.
    Somebody will put forth this idea about once a week or so. Take a look through the archives.

    Then take a look at the Druid's Animal Companion. Stat one out, compare it to a Monk. That's just a single of the Druid's class features.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree to some extent (extend?).

    At higher levels, say 10/11+ for convenience sake, spellcasters do outgrow the martial classes overall, but at lower levels at the very least they are roughly equal, if not the monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.
    WRONG, First level Druid owns First level Monk

    What advantages do you see??

    They have the same BaB, same HP, same Skill points, Monk's unarmed Strike is 1d6 at level 1 and Druid has plenty of weapons that deal 1d6 or greater, AC should be roughly the same depending on stat allocation Druid gets Armor, Shield and Dex to AC, Monk only gets Dex and Wis, Even with Monks flurry the Druid still gets more attacks per turn if you count his animal companion plus Druid gets Spells.

    how do you see the monk being better??

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    I must disagree. All of those spells can end encounters on their own. All are core. All are available at 3rd level or less. Hell, web can be dambed at 1st level with a feat from Complete Arcane.
    "can" being the keyword here and what happens if there's more than one encounter?
    Real men don't squee!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeltaEmil's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    The monk dies. Or he survives IF the druid (or the cleric) spare their awesome healing power AFTER the battle. Meanwhile, the druid flees and gets a new animal companion.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    "can" being the keyword here and what happens if there's more than one encounter?
    You still have an Animal companion, the same base attack and roughly one HP of difference between you and the Monk. And you get more than one spell per day.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    "can" being the keyword here and what happens if there's more than one encounter?
    Two encounters. If you aren't getting even a bonus first level spell, your Wis isn't merely non-optimized.

    But, after two encounters: You stab them. Your companion mauls them. That's the same number of attacks as a Monk, and you aren't even taking a Flurry penalty.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Hyfigh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    The list assumes relatively the same level of optimization, which does include gameplayer competence...
    A poorly played druid can suck in an epic capacity; but it takes even less amounts of epic-suck to mess up the monk.
    On the opposite end of that spectrum: a really well played, and optimized monk will be great and all... But he will still pale in comparison to the sheer awesome of the well played, and optimized druid.
    The tiers are only marginalized when players are not bringing the same tools to the table. In one case the tiers can be dealt with because a poor player is playing a higher tier, while more experienced players are in the lower tiers. It really ends up being a problem when a poor player chooses a low tier class, and the experienced player pulls out the big guns. In that case, just hope your experienced player is nice enough to back off quite a bit to not steal the show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Though, this is obviously a world in which Speak with Dead trivializes most murder investigations. It's not "Well, after spending an exhaustive amount of time searching the crime scene for evidence, I seem to have found some bat guano and- yadda yadda" it's "Steve did it. Go scry Steve"

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaginChangeling View Post
    You still have an Animal companion, the same base attack and roughly one HP of difference between you and the Monk. And you get more than one spell per day.
    Druid and Monk are both d8. At 1st level, you would only have an HP difference based on CON, which the Druid could more easily afford a decent stat in, as Druid has less need for both a good STR and DEX.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Doc Roc's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree to some extent (extend?).

    At higher levels, say 10/11+ for convenience sake, spellcasters do outgrow the martial classes overall, but at lower levels at the very least they are roughly equal, if not the monk being better (at 1st level a monk is far more useful than a druid in my book), this barring extreme optimizing ofcourse.
    I would deeply disagree, again. I can show you some maffs if you'd like, but my esteemed fellows have covered it with aplomb.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-03-24 at 05:30 PM.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Hyfigh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaginChangeling View Post
    You still have an Animal companion, the same base attack and roughly one HP of difference between you and the Monk. And you get more than one spell per day.
    Don't forget the potential free AoO for both you and the companion from the wolf (if that's what you chose for a companion) tripping your foe.

    Edit: I forgot that a Flurrying monk will be attacking twice at -2 without stats taken into account. The druid doesn't take that penalty for his attack, and his animal companion gets one as well. Bare-bones fighting, even without spells, the druid fares better than the monk in combat encounters. So the druid can end two encounters per day gauranteed, and can still handle the rest of them better than the monk. The druids got a leg up in staying power for sure.
    Last edited by Hyfigh; 2011-03-24 at 05:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Though, this is obviously a world in which Speak with Dead trivializes most murder investigations. It's not "Well, after spending an exhaustive amount of time searching the crime scene for evidence, I seem to have found some bat guano and- yadda yadda" it's "Steve did it. Go scry Steve"

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    The problem I always had with tiers is all the assuming that goes on.

    ASSUMING a wizard has every spell in the game in his/her spellbook, ASSUMING he/she has 8 hours foreknowledge of what he/she is about to face and ASSUMING he/she is max level, the wizard is the best class in the game. Never mind that the sorcerer is better equipped to deal with surprises, never mind that the sorcerer can still have access to every spell in the game via scrolls (which, remember, the wizard also had to buy to fill his spell book), never mind that the sorcerer has more spells per day and never mind that the wizard is incredibly squishy and can do nothing when his spells are gone at the earlier levels. The wizard is the best, definitely. 9.9
    Last edited by 3Power; 2011-03-24 at 05:54 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    The problem I always had with tiers is all the assuming that goes on.

    ASSUMING a wizard has every spell in the game in his/her spellbook, ASSUMING he/she has 8 hours foreknowledge of what he/she is about to face and ASSUMING he/she is max level, the wizard is the best class in the game. Never mind that the sorcerer is better equipped to deal with surprises, never mind that the sorcerer can still have access to every spell in the game via scrolls (which, remember, the wizard also had to buy to fill his spell book), never mind that the sorcerer has more spells per day and never mind that the wizard is incredibly squishy and can do nothing when his spells are gone at the earlier levels. The wizard is the best, definitely. 9.9
    Generally, the Sorcerer cannot learn the spells on a scroll, while the Wizard can. Sorcerers are equally squishy when their spells are gone.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Doc Roc's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    The problem I always had with tiers is all the assuming that goes on.

    ASSUMING a wizard has every spell in the game in his/her spellbook, ASSUMING he/she has 8 hours foreknowledge of what he/she is about to face and ASSUMING he/she is max level, the wizard is the best class in the game. Never mind that the sorcerer is better equipped to deal with surprises, never mind that the sorcerer can still have access to every spell in the game via scrolls (which, remember, the wizard also had to buy to fill his spell book), never mind that the sorcerer has more spells per day and never mind that the wizard is incredibly squishy and can do nothing when his spells are gone at the earlier levels. The wizard is the best, definitely. 9.9
    I actually prefer the sorcerer, and I'm probably the second strongest Opt guy left on the forums.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    "can" being the keyword here and what happens if there's more than one encounter?
    A first level, non-specialist wizard will have at least two spells. One from class levels, one from high INT. A specialist wizard will have three. If said wizard has a 20 INT (doable with 28 point buy and race selection), there's an extra one. If he's a focused specialist, add 2 more. Plenty of spells there.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


    Winner of Junkyard Wars 31.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Alright, fine, I'll admit that the core-book monk sucks utter donkeyballs (am I allowed to say that?). But what about a fighter or barbarian, surely none of you will argue a 1st level druid is more useful than a 1st level fighter at that level?
    Real men don't squee!

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    Alright, fine, I'll admit that the core-book monk sucks utter donkeyballs (am I allowed to say that?). But what about a fighter or barbarian, surely none of you will argue a 1st level druid is more useful than a 1st level fighter at that level?
    Many of us, in fact, would.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    You will generally find that this board assumes that wizards are all taking the best possible spells (and that they can largely divination for what will be useful that day or something), that the fights take place in places where the environment does not matter much, and that the party can control engagements and timing.

    Not every fight has grass for entangle to work on. You aren't being a scrooge of a DM if there's nothing TO entangle with. Web doesn't work everywhere either. Color spray requires you be pretty close (but is fierce because it can force several rough saves), but a CR 1/2 guy with a crossbow bolt and a readied action makes even that risky. Sleep and someone will often wake up your guy. Your enemies could have many MORE actions than you, or just one versus your whole parties. A lot of the balance discussions seem to assume that you are in some duel- I'm fine with every high level wizard winning every duel, ever. They have a class with abilities that are all about that, whatever. It's not duels, or 2v2 arena, that matter here, it's your role in the world, being a good contributor in and out of combat, etc.

    I still find the tier list useful. I still find the board *very* useful, with such a ludicrous amount of help here that it's kind of shocking. But the ground rule assumptions here are very likely not like what your group uses. If you don't have problems with wizards summoning armies or whatever in your games, then don't sweat it.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiz828 View Post
    Alright, fine, I'll admit that the core-book monk sucks utter donkeyballs (am I allowed to say that?). But what about a fighter or barbarian, surely none of you will argue a 1st level druid is more useful than a 1st level fighter at that level?
    A Druid's animal companion, if you pick wolf or riding dog, can beat a fighter roughly fifty percent of the time on its own at least. And the Druid also gets spells.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Kitchener/Waterloo
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Very Stupid Question: What are tiers?

    Let me put it this way, Wiz828: most of your concerns have already been brought up, and the majority of them were dealt with in the first posts of the Tier System thread. If you read that thread you'll get substantially more enlightened on the topic than if you merely ask us questions, unless all you want to do is have a repetitive argument.
    Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-03-24 at 06:51 PM.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

    Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
    Trophy!
    Spoiler
    Show


    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •