Results 91 to 120 of 280
Thread: Monk... Why do they suck?
-
2011-03-29, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.
-
2011-03-29, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Overland Flight is a flat out illegal move, as it is self only. Air Walk only lasts an hour or three, and Fly lasts even less. Not to mention you are a VoP Monk, which means there's a long list of options that rank higher in priority than making a completely useless character only mostly useless. Additionally, Flying Carpets are crazy overpriced, and dragon flight doesn't work with full attackers.
My fix, which has made every monk player I've DM'd happy was to let monk weapons do monk fist damage - lots of Power Attack 2-handed quarterstaff builds with that one change alone. Most also took the ACF Decisive Strike as well, which helped with the whole move -> attack problem of flurry.
Looking at other suggestions, I like the idea of Abundant Step a per encounter ability. Basically anything that a monk can do that a swordsage can also do, should be usable as often. It'd of been nice if they'd errata'd the monk in ToB to make it more inline with the philosophy evident before the switch to 4th ed.
Sorcerers lose hard on VoP for much the same reasons as everyone else. The only class it's even a discussion for is Druids. And even then, WBL is better. It's just closer than with any other class.
Monks are the most equipment dependent class in the entire game. I don't know why anyone would claim otherwise.
Heavy Fort is a standard item at all levels 15+. It specifically negates stunning.
Barring something silly like Dust of Sneezing and Choking, it matters not one bit what items the Monk has.
Well, given that it's a well-known trick the one can Dimension Door out of a grapple pretty easily, why would the monk even try when they can use Improve Disarm and take away a wizard's wand, staff, ubiquitous Headband o' Brains, or spell component pouch?
Oh, and your damage calculations are assuming no damage-enhancing magic (which seems unlikely) or Power Attack. If the monk just chose to attack 5 times, it's quite probable they could hand the wizard 100 damage right there.
Now here we get to the real, biggest, most obvious flaw of this whole scenario - high level monks have spell resistance (the Blasphemy effect of a Balor has a Save too, but we'll let that slide). So guess what, no spells work, and the monk kills the wizard before he knows what's happening.
You know, there probably are, but in a real game a wizard doesn't have time to sit and spend hours figuring out the right strategy and is just as likely to make the same kind of mistakes made above, let alone buy equipment and choose spells suited to a specific battle - especially if they're so overconfident.
It states that it does not work on a list of things containing four creature types, one creature subtype, and creatures immune to critical hits. It is extremely clearcut. You are immune if any of the following are true:
Your creature type is Construct, Ooze, Plant, or Undead.
You have the Incorporeal subtype.
You are immune to critical hits.
Anyone with Heavy Fort meets the third criteria, ergo no effect. Not to mention that outside of some Monk always rolls 20s, Wizard always rolls 1s scenario Stunning Fist is a non factor, because he will save on a 2+. It is also worth mentioning Monks are the only class in the entire game that cannot get Heavy Fort. One more reason why they suck.
Then you were fighting weak minions and weaker BBEGs. At level 10, AC 28 is borderline hit on a 2 by normal fights. Bosses will have no trouble doing so.
It's more common via Elemental Body (which explicitly grants stun immunity, along with perfect flight, critical hit immunity, and other things) or the Heart of line, because they come online sooner. It's the same end result though. Everyone that knows better gets Heavy Fort. Except Monks, because they can't.
In general, panic buttons are good; in high-level play, they're vital. Wizards have them. Sorcerers and artificers have them in spades. Clerics and favored souls have them, as do beguilers and bards. Warblades and swordsages and crusaders have them. Factotums definitely do.
Monks, not so much.
Flurry of Blows.
-
2011-03-29, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Sure, but then it comes up once in a while, and their session is ruined.
In programming, corner cases are still bugs.
While not valid as a source of empirical evidence under normal circumstances, he was insisting that it simply never came up. {k !E in set A} is proven wrong by {k E in set A}. Also, SMBC is awesome.Last edited by Doc Roc; 2011-03-29 at 05:52 PM.
Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
-
2011-03-29, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Euphonistan
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Monks can get heavy fortification you can put it on your bracers of defense for one.
-
2011-03-29, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
VoP Monks are rather decent in low-magic campaigns with a stingy DM (read: wealth way below WBL) and with the PCs being threatened with loss of their gear all the time.
That's an extreme corner case though.
-
2011-03-29, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Atlanta, Georgia
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
I would also suggest that in many of the games in which it doesn't present a problem, it is entirely because of player attitude. I've seen games where the monk underperforms, dies, loses a level, underperforms more because he is now lower level, etc, but it wasn't a problem as such, because the player just shrugged and had a good time.
That doesn't mean that monk was fulfilling its party role or performing well, the player just didn't care, and to the degree that he did care, he assigned the blame to luck rather than to the class that he wanted to love.
-
2011-03-29, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Seattle, WA
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
VoP ANYTHING is good in that situation though. VoP comes out to be ~60% WBL, when you add everything up. If your DM is only giving you 20% WBL in treasure, automatically getting 60% WBL is a pretty dang good deal. A VoP fighter wielding a quarterstaff 2handed with Power Attack is gonna dramatically outclass and out damage a VoP monk.
Its not a function of monks, its a function of DMs and WBL.
-
2011-03-29, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
169k. 105k more than normal +8 Bracers. 70k more than just adding it to normal armor. Or to put it better, three times as expensive. On a class that has little spare gold to begin with.
Not to mention if you have obscure book access such as the Arms and Equipment guide, which is the only place you can do that you can just be an Unarmed Swordsage, or hell, an Unarmed Cleric and punch people out that way.
In campaigns like that, there is only one option, and that option is a primary spellcaster.
-
2011-03-29, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Joliet, IL
- Gender
-
2011-03-29, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
-
2011-03-29, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
-
2011-03-29, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Reading, England
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Alas, D&D is a combat oriented game, so poor stats means sucking at combat and, thus, D&D. In some RPGs, some perfectly good character concepts can go with poor combat abilities but D&D is combat oriented. That idea is so vital, it needed to be written twice.
Of course, D&D is still an RPG and there is scope for non-combat roles. Let's consider how the monk can handle a variety of roles.
- Face man: CHA tends to be a dump stat and lacks Bluff as a class skill.
- Investigator: lacks some skills as class skills, such as Gather Information and Search, only has only 4+INT skills and no spells either.
- Sage: only 4+INT skills with INT being a low priority and most sage skills aren't class skills.
- Healer: next!
- Thief: better but lacks Open Lock and Disable Device and no spells either.
In all these cases, you're better off with a Bard or Rogue.
Let us reconsider various combat roles.
- Tank: poor armour and damage dealing.
- Opportunist striker: speed is good but 2/3 BAB progression and no strike capability isn't.
- Battlefield control/debuffer: no spells or area effect abilities.
- Artillery: poor ranged weapons.
- Buffer/healer: no spells.
Mostly, you're still better off with a Bard.
Monks don't excel at any role whereas even Bards easily excel at face man. They lack the skill points and class skills to usefully contribute to a variety of roles whereas Bard has more skill points, class skills and has spells.
How about what some think is cool or fun.
- Touchy-feely love: no.
- Nag people to behave themselves: doesn't fit whereas this fits Cleric or Paladin.
- Lesbian, stripper ninja: this works.
- Emo kid: doesn't fit, try Warlock.
- Kung fu hijinks: now you're talking.
So, the Monk sucks except for stunts that are cool but aren't really that useful.Matthew Greet
My purpose in life is to play games.
-
2011-03-29, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
-
2011-03-29, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
DocRoc: to?
Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.
-
2011-03-29, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Depends, if the DM is nerfing everyone equally they're still going to be about on par. A Fighter with a Quarterstaff and power attack is better than a Monk doing the same thing in a no wealth campaign, and a Wizard can take eschew materials and such. If, hypothetically, it was a no wealth campaign where Eschew Materials was banned, no one but the monk was allowed to take Improved Unarmed Strike and improvised weapons were given a damage of 1d2 and always treated as light weapons... The monk still loses to Divine casters, but at very low levels it would be better in combat than anyone but the Druid.
-
2011-03-29, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
The best way to get Heavy Fort is actually a dragon item- Gemstone of Fortification, in Draconomicon. 35,000 GP, which is quite cheap for the effect, plus a Limited Wish or similar magic to get it implanted in yourself if you aren't already a dragon or something else with thick skin that doesn't much mind having bits of rock jabbed in it.
-
2011-03-29, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
- Location
- Ama'varde
- Gender
-
2011-03-29, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Survivability. Specifically, survivability against non-AC attacks; all good saves, Evasion and Improved Evasion acquired earlier than even the Rogue, Still Mind, and encouraged to invest in its defensive stats. Unfortunately, "I'm still alive" is not a particularly valuable niche.. unless your party dies a lot and you need somebody who can reliably duck out of the TPK and carry your corpses back to base for resurrection. Monks can do that pretty well.
-
2011-03-29, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Atlanta, Georgia
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
So, in core with the only roll 1s/20s rule, granted the SR which I forgot before, I think the wizard has to resort to suffocation. So:
Resilient Sphere. Cast all normal long term buffs, including Shapechange, stone skin, mirror image, False life. Fast Heal all damage done by monk on round 1. At this point, if you mess up and the monk gets an attack on you, he is no real threat. Take a fast flying form, like a dragon.
Fly to 60 feat or so away from monk. Forcecage him (No SR, No save). Put walls of stone around the barred forcecage, making a box. Fill the box with sand, water or mud (for example, by shapechanging into something huge, with high str, picking up rocks, tossing them in and casting rock to mud.) once the box is filled with mud, turn the mud back into rock around the outside, creating an airtight seal. 40 hours later, by the time the forcecage drops, monk should be dead. (you could also earthglide into the box (outside the cage), and disintegrate or burn up the air to speed things up)
If monk hasn't used his DDoor yet, he can escape the forcecage, once. Forcecage him again and he is done.
There are lots of faster methods, which are also kills, but they are either non-core, or require a d20 roll.
They are decent in Gestalt, or as 1-2 level dips.Last edited by Gnaeus; 2011-03-29 at 07:29 PM.
-
2011-03-29, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
With Tashelatora (which I probably misspelled) or to give yourself a challenge, it's a good choice.
Otherwise, Monk is good if it's the archetype you most enjoy, and none of the mechanically superior options are available to you. After all, if you're having fun, you're doing it right.
-
2011-03-29, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
My homebrew
Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbookSpoiler
-
2011-03-30, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Martial Monk variant is a superior dip than fighter. Due to it not needing to meet its prereqs for its bonus feats. Add in invisible fist variant and you have something to work with.
-
2011-03-30, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
-
2011-03-30, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Probably depends on the group. I'm sure their are some groups that will just roll their eyes when you say your playing a broken monk.
-
2011-03-30, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
-
2011-03-30, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
They are an excellent source of experience points and treasure for the classes that are worth something. They are also an excellent source of comic relief, when they make six attacks and miss all of them only to be knocked out in one punch by a Cleric. But aside from that? Yes, they're terrible, and any attempt to make others as terrible as they are will fail.
Monks have average saves. And if the party is dying a lot, having a useful party member would be better.
Fly = low duration. Mass Fly = only useful when there are multiple, useful non fliers. The others don't work with Monks. So that's not happening.Last edited by Malevolence; 2011-03-30 at 08:00 AM.
-
2011-03-30, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Lustria
- Gender
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Last edited by Killer Angel; 2011-03-30 at 08:19 AM.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
-
2011-03-30, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
-
2011-03-30, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
-
2011-03-30, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Monk... Why do they suck?
Phantom steed and phantom stags can fly at level 14 and flying items are usually expensive. A lot of times, we've found it more practical to save the money and just have the caster(s) provide flight. I agree that a monk with VoP can't truly shine in a party with even basic optimisation, but unless the whole party consists of casters who can fly (in which case the monk is even more useless), the lack of independent flying doesn't have to be that crippling.
Last edited by ThunderCat; 2011-03-30 at 09:31 AM.