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    Default Help me make a paladin

    Is it possible to make a charisma based paladin who is primarily a melee damage dealer or healer? If so, what books should I be using, and what options should I be selecting?

    I have not played fourth edition since the game was first released, and in the PhB paladins seemed to be pretty thoroughly stuck in the defender role, which I was not interested in playing (still aren't). However, I understand that a lot of new books have been released and have given a lot of additional options for characters.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Deva, max Charisma, Wisdom, get Virtuous Strike and Enfeebling Strike.

    Sources you want to use is everything preferably, but the PHBs, and Divine Power if you can't.

    Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blades, Holy Symbols) is a priority. If you're going for a Radiant specialist with the Sun Domain, get Solar Enemy and Power of the Sun. Improved Steed (Celestial Tiger) at L6 when you get access to the Call Celestial Steed Utility (Dragon Magazine 393).

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have not played fourth edition since the game was first released, and in the PhB paladins seemed to be pretty thoroughly stuck in the defender role, which I was not interested in playing (still aren't). However, I understand that a lot of new books have been released and have given a lot of additional options for characters.
    A Defender is still a Defender. If you don't want to play a Defender, my suggestion is don't play a Defender class.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    With a 'Solar Scorcher'/Radiant build type, you'll be able to act effectively as a Defender while dealing out appreciable damage.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    I thought 4th ed was getting better on the whole "No you can't" attitude present in the PhB. I guess I was mistaken then.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I thought 4th ed was getting better on the whole "No you can't" attitude present in the PhB. I guess I was mistaken then.
    You can hurt things but pretending defenders aren't defenders isn't remotely realistic. 4th edition is designed with explicit and defined roles.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    I was under the impression the further books added different builds for the base classes, I hoped that one of them was a damage or healing oriented paladin. Even most MMOs have alternate specs.

    Is there a different class which can build a charisma based melee character?

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Even most MMOs have alternate specs.
    Then you don't understand how 4e works. The game itself is designed to have 4 defined roles divided between the classes. Some classes in those roles may be able to do other things secondarily but nowhere near as good as classes that are supposed to be doing them.

    Is there a different class which can build a charisma based melee character?
    Paladin is probably the only Charisma based melee.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I was under the impression the further books added different builds for the base classes, I hoped that one of them was a damage or healing oriented paladin. Even most MMOs have alternate specs.

    Is there a different class which can build a charisma based melee character?
    You might be thinking of the essentials line of books. The added a large number of sub-classes for many of the base classes and some are different.
    There is however some thing close to what you are looking for. In Divine Power there are two new builds for the paladin: Ardent and Virtuous. The ardent is the most striker of the paladin class, you lose most of the healing and some defensive abilities to become more powerful. There really isn't what I would call a healing oriented paladin but the virtuous might be close to what you want, it focus more on bonuses on defense and saving throws then straight healing however and it's main class feature, Virtue's Touch, allows you to end one condition (out of a number) from a target instead of Lay on Hands.
    Last edited by KingFlameHawk; 2011-03-27 at 01:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartigan View Post
    Paladin is probably the only Charisma based melee.
    The Bard and Ardent, as well as Daring Blade paragon path (use Charisma for attack and damage rolls with martial melee weapon attacks instead of whatever you would normally use) would like to have a word with you.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    I'm pretty sure the upcoming Hexblade is also a Cha-based melee character.

    Also, as has been mentioned above, you can make a Defender that does decent damage. You can even combine Divine Challenge and some mobility to burn your opponents.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pyre View Post
    Also, as has been mentioned above, you can make a Defender that does decent damage. You can even combine Divine Challenge and some mobility to burn your opponents.
    Agreed. You can, but you'll never achieve striker-levels of damage. Really, the Paladin is a tough chassis on which to build a striker. I would do it via the Morninglord paragon path and abuse radiant vulnerability. As a plus: your allies can exploit it too.

    Building a cha-based healer would be a bit easier. Make sure your Wis is solid so you get more Lay on Hands. Take feats to improve it. Paladins get some solid healing-related attack powers and utilities. Since your Wis will be good, take a Shaman multiclass (Spirit Talker) and then Mending Spirit. It's nice to have; you will get 1 shaman heal an encounter, a spirit companion to assist you in locking down your enemies, and a daily power to give you a Wis-mod bonus to a skill check. Not bad. You'll be almost as good of a healer as most Leaders. You still won't be a true Leader, but your healing will be mostly up to snuff. (This isn't a great build, but it's strong enough for a home game.)
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I thought 4th ed was getting better on the whole "No you can't" attitude present in the PhB. I guess I was mistaken then.
    Sure you can. The answer is to play either an avenger (for damage dealing) or a cleric (for healing), and simpy call yourself a paladin in character. The fluff of those three classes is pretty much interchangeable.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Sure you can. The answer is to play either an avenger (for damage dealing) or a cleric (for healing), and simpy call yourself a paladin in character. The fluff of those three classes is pretty much interchangeable.
    This is by far the easiest and most effective way of handling it. Also, I would add in a Bard. I could see a Bard being refluffed into a Paladin. It's also an effective healer and great at Charisma skills (for converting people to your god or intimidating them when they don't). Also, Charisma-based melee. Striker levels? No, but the Bard can multiclass better than anyone. Also, the Half-Elf makes a fantastic Bard and if you poach a great power like Twin Strike, at level 11 you can do very respectable damage.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    I'm not sure if they are CHA based, but you could always try Avenger. Divine strikers with lots of cool fluff. You don't need to be a Paladin to be a paladin.

    EDIT: Ninja'd. 5 hours ago. I need to start reading the whole thread...
    Last edited by TroubleBrewing; 2011-03-27 at 10:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    The Bard and Ardent, as well as Daring Blade paragon path (use Charisma for attack and damage rolls with martial melee weapon attacks instead of whatever you would normally use) would like to have a word with you.
    Ardent and Bard use Charisma, but they are in the same "not a striker" boat the Paladin is.
    Paragon Path? Those have what? 2 powers total?


    Though I have no idea what the necessity for using Charisma is...
    Last edited by Cartigan; 2011-03-27 at 10:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartigan View Post
    Ardent and Bard use Charisma, but they are in the same "not a striker" boat the Paladin is.
    Paragon Path? Those have what? 2 powers total?


    Though I have no idea what the necessity for using Charisma is...
    You missed the point on the paragon path. It changes ALL your martial powers to utilize Charisma instead of whatever it normally uses. A Rogue who uses Charisma to attack with? Yep. A Ranger? Yep. Basically, every Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and Warlord power in the game now uses Cha for attack rolls and damage instead of Str, Dex, Con, Int or Wis.

    I think people jumped too quickly on the striker aspect of what the OP said. He said "melee damage dealer OR healer?" The Bard clearly satisfies that request.

    Also, so does the Ardent except via the melee damage dealer request in addition to the healing request. Just get two of your friends to play an Ardent with you and at level 7 you guys become charging fiends. Nothing is safe. Everything dies. (Forward-Thinking Cut is a fantastic power.)
    Last edited by tcrudisi; 2011-03-27 at 10:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    You missed the point on the paragon path. It changes ALL your martial powers to utilize Charisma instead of whatever it normally uses. A Rogue who uses Charisma to attack with? Yep. A Ranger? Yep. Basically, every Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and Warlord power in the game now uses Cha for attack rolls and damage instead of Str, Dex, Con, Int or Wis.
    Well that's great then. If you are starting the game at 11th level. Otherwise I don't even see the point of the Paragon path.

    And I'm not seeing that it says it applies to power.
    Last edited by Cartigan; 2011-03-27 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I was under the impression the further books added different builds for the base classes, I hoped that one of them was a damage or healing oriented paladin. Even most MMOs have alternate specs.

    Is there a different class which can build a charisma based melee character?
    I think it would help out everyone if maybe you could be more specific on your original question.

    What exactly are you trying to accomplish? You said a Cha based melee Paladin, but what are you looking to do with it? Are you trying to deal damage? Be the party healer? You already stated that you don't want to be a "defender" since it isn't appealing to you.

    In 4th ed there is very much a team mentality and you normally need to balance out your goals with your party since you can't specialize in "everything". Is there a role you are looking to fill and if so are you looking for a divine class or specifically a Paladin? Also, is there a reason you picked Cha specifically?
    Last edited by evirus; 2011-03-27 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pyre View Post
    I'm pretty sure the upcoming Hexblade is also a Cha-based melee character.
    I wouldn't consider a class that's been available for four months "upcoming."

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by evirus View Post
    What exactly are you trying to accomplish? You said a Cha based melee Paladin, but what are you looking to do with it? Are you trying to deal damage? Be the party healer? You already stated that you don't want to be a "defender" since it isn't appealing to you.
    I wanted to RP an attractive and strong willed character so CHA should obviously be my high stat and healing and melee are what I enjoy doing mechanically. Simple as that.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I wanted to RP an attractive and strong willed character so CHA should obviously be my high stat and healing and melee are what I enjoy doing mechanically. Simple as that.
    It sounds like you want to fill the "Leader" role. There is already a class to do this. Bard uses Cha as a main stat for melee and does healing. There is a very viable melee build for Bard in PHB2.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I wanted to RP an attractive and strong willed character so CHA should obviously be my high stat and healing and melee are what I enjoy doing mechanically. Simple as that.
    ...so why paladin? There are several other cha-based melee classes.

    Also, you don't need a high number for your cha in order to play an attractive and strong-willed character.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by evirus View Post
    It sounds like you want to fill the "Leader" role. There is already a class to do this. Bard uses Cha as a main stat for melee and does healing. There is a very viable melee build for Bard in PHB2.
    Agreed. My roommate rolled a Half Elf Valorous Bard, found that the party's swordmage needed some help, and took the Soldier of the Faith paladin multiclass feat which gave him a once per encounter use of divine challenge--he'd drop it on a monster and tank them until the group came over to help out. He also picked up scale proficiency, so at level 4 his defenses were AC 21/Fort 16/Ref 16/Will 19 to go with 44 hit points. That's pretty tough for a leader and he did just fine being charismatic and hitting things with a long sword.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    I am open to a different class, but I only own the PHB 1 at the moment, and as far as I can tell the paladin is the only CHA based melee or healer, except possibly warlord, not too sure what they actually play like.


    I tried to make a leader bard in a game when I had access to the PHB II, it didn't work at all. The class seemed to be geared toward the ranged damage / controller role, and by trying to play it as a leader class I pissed off my party to the point where they intentionally got my character killed (not exaggerating, they actually stated this was their plan) so I would have to roll something useful. I didn't notice they had a melee build, that might be what I am looking for, anyone got any more info?


    I understand that 4th edition has mostly divorced RP from mechanics, but I still can't imagine considering someone who has a low will defense to be strong willed, and I can't imagine people will treat someone with CHA as a dump stat as an attractive person, every game I have ever played people with CHA as a dump stat (usually power gamers) are constantly the butt of ugly jokes for 15+ years with different groups.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Ok, I know that I for one will try to come up with a viable melee bard build for you and I'm certain that other here will want to as well. What starting level and is there any race/ background/feats that are not allowed in your campaign?

    It would also help if I knew vaguely what the other party members are geared towards.

    Also, I hope the build I make is good enough to make your party rethink the usefulness of Bards in a group.
    Last edited by evirus; 2011-03-27 at 05:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    We will be starting at first or second level and I would prefer to a human or some sort of elf.

    As far as I know anything is allowed, but I am going to have to purchase any of the books I use in my build so I would prefer things which are accsessible and not spread across too many source books.

    Thank you for your help!

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    I chose the Virtue of Prescience because nothing makes another character love you more than an interrupt on a major hit and saying it misses instead.

    I also chose as your dilettante power as Virtious strike to keep that "Paladin" feel and give you a radiant power (undead be gone). You can instead take Ardent Strike if you want to mark targets in a pinch.

    I also took improved majestic word for the extra heal.

    All in all this build should allow you to be an "off tank" with some extra spice on the side.

    Any thoughts community?


    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Melee McBard, level 1
    Half-Elf, Bard
    Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Prescience
    Background: Elf - Urban Elf (+2 to Streetwise)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 18.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16.


    AC: 17 Fort: 13 Reflex: 13 Will: 15
    HP: 28 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +6, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +9, Streetwise +11

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +3, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +4, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth, Thievery, Athletics

    FEATS
    Bard: Ritual Caster
    Level 1: Improved Majestic Word

    POWERS
    Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
    Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike
    Dilettante: Virtuous Strike
    Bard encounter 1: Inspiring Refrain
    Bard daily 1: Echoes of the Guardian

    ITEMS
    Ritual Book, Longsword, Chainmail, Light Shield
    ======

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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartigan View Post
    Well that's great then. If you are starting the game at 11th level. Otherwise I don't even see the point of the Paragon path.

    And I'm not seeing that it says it applies to power.
    It opens up options and that is the really important point of it. Yes, it becomes available at level 11, but characters can turn that into an incredibly potent option. The meanest defender I've ever seen played abused that feature. It was a Fighter|Battlemind who maximized Con and Cha. It utilized Brash Strike as the Fighter at-will to stay competitive with others, Rain of Steel as the daily power, and Shield Bash as the encounter power. Pretty much only Shield Bash is a mediocre choice. When the character hit level 11, things get sickening when it locks down almost all the bad guys single-handedly. From levels 1 to 10 it functioned as a good defender (not great, but definitely above average). From levels 11-30, it was the best defender I've ever seen. My point? For someone who has declared that they want to use Charisma to make melee attacks, that feature is certainly worth mentioning.

    Yes, it applies to all melee attacks.
    Daring Improvisation (11th level): When you make a martial melee weapon attack, you can use Charisma for the attack roll and damage roll in place of the ability score required by the attack.
    Let's say you are using Twin Strike. Twin Strike is a martial melee weapon attack, so you can use Charisma for the attack roll and damage roll (although in this case Twin Strike doesn't have an ability score damage roll).

    @Talakeal - The Bard can be played at range and is a secondary controller. However, it has some fine powers and is incredibly good at being a team player. Many of its powers enable your allies to do more damage, crit more often, or get them into a position where they can be at their best. It can heal well enough to keep a party alive and will do mediocre damage. But it will allow your allies to do more damage.
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    Default Re: Help me make a paladin

    Hexblade is a very viable option if you want to focus solely on damage and forget control, defender, and healing.

    And the only other book you'd need is Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms.

    But i'd suggest subscribing to D&Di for a month ($10) so you can read through literally every book and every option if you so desire, without having to buy them first.

    The character creator is also an excellent way to familiarize yourself with a class. When looking in the books at the skill options it's hard to envision how it all fits together to create a whole.

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