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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Um... I believe that would be called "heterosexual", "homosexual" or "bi/pansexual", depending on what, exactly you're attracted to - unless you meant "attracted to people 742 is attracted to"

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    nonono people argue over the definitions of bi and pan here, and they have to be explained so much and have all sorts of connotations elsewhere, so something that clearly defines it with little to no room for misinterpretation-the connotations of specificity(and implication of a binary) in "bisexual" or the "i really like your hat. you in it? not so much. would you mind if we took off to um " connotations of pansexual. the theoretical word im talking about would allow for dynamic or complex preferences while not specifically telling anyone "categorically no" or "hi im othery" and allow people to answer annoying questions without defining themselves in a concrete manner. i feel the ability to answer those questions without a concrete definition is shiny because once someone says "im this" they seem to feel a pressure to act like they are that with little or no regard for the truth. this doesnt seem to apply any more or less to sexuality than anything else, and i really want to be able to answer that question in less than 11 syllables without validating any expectations of binary anything or having to explain that i do not in fact have romantic or sexual desires concerning architecture kitchen appliances and office software. it would also get rid of the questions about whether one is interested in every member of their own sex when they say theyre homo/bi/pan-sexual
    Last edited by 742; 2011-04-18 at 06:39 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    OK, that's a wall of text which is very difficult to read.
    But basically, just because some people misinterpret the existing terms does not mean there is anything wrong with those terms. And I don't really think inventing a new term is really going to help this confusion.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    So, if I'm reading this right (and the lack of capitalisation or paragraphing makes that very difficult), because there's some debate or confusion over the exact definitions of different terms, we should invent new terms that are actually already covered by the ones that already exist?

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    So, if I'm reading this right (and the lack of capitalisation or paragraphing makes that very difficult), because there's some debate or confusion over the exact definitions of different terms, we should invent new terms that are actually already covered by the ones that already exist?
    I think he's saying that the new terms are filling in the gaps between the old ones, or that the old ones do not actually cover all the possible meanings. Which is why pansexual is a thing in the first place, FWIW.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    I just heard the stupidest thing today.

    As you may or may not know, this saturday there was a Neo-Nazi rally in Trenton. today at work some people were talking about how they were messed up in the head and attention whores (rightfully so). But then one of them went so far as to call them all Closet Homosexuals (in less polite terms) I walked away, but am more than a littled pissed about it.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by 742 View Post
    so if "homosexual" is "attracted to people of the same sex"* "heterosexual" is "attracted to people of the opposite sex"* and "bisexual" "attracted to both"* what is "attracted to people who im attracted to"**? we need a fancy sounding word for that, it cant be accepted without a word. if its a sentence then we can just take out the spaces, that will make it more memorable that its a real thing even if people dont remember the exact fancy word for it.
    I'd suggest "tautosexual", as in "tautology"
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    But if we had pansexual as meaning "attracted to people I'm attracted to", wouldn't we all be pansexual?

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by 742 View Post
    it would also get rid of the questions about whether one is interested in every member of their own sex when they say theyre homo/bi/pan-sexual
    By this logic, every heterosexual is interested in every member of the opposite sex.
    The response to silly ignorance and misconceptions is not to legitimise them by, say, adding a new category that's meant to be distinct from the misunderstood ones, but to correct it when it happens.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    On the topic of the little boy who wasn't allowed a pink rabbit:
    This makes me feel sad and angry. I think the best way to deal with that kind of thing is to say something along the lines of "Oh no, I've read about that kind of thing in children, and it's completely normal for a lot of children to like things that are stereotypically seen as the other gender's. Children aren't born with our social conditioning that tells us what's seen as 'girly' and what's seen as 'boyish'. The best thing to do is to make sure your child knows you love him no matter what, and try not to force him towards his own gender stuff, or he'll associate it with not being allowed to choose." If you're really polite and helpful about it, you can say you were just trying to make conversation (since they effectively started it), since most places don't want you to actively argue with the customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    I just heard the stupidest thing today.

    As you may or may not know, this saturday there was a Neo-Nazi rally in Trenton. today at work some people were talking about how they were messed up in the head and attention whores (rightfully so). But then one of them went so far as to call them all Closet Homosexuals (in less polite terms) I walked away, but am more than a littled pissed about it.
    Yes, because the Nazi party was so homosexual. WTF?! That's ridiculous.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    I just heard the stupidest thing today.

    As you may or may not know, this saturday there was a Neo-Nazi rally in Trenton. today at work some people were talking about how they were messed up in the head and attention whores (rightfully so). But then one of them went so far as to call them all Closet Homosexuals (in less polite terms) I walked away, but am more than a littled pissed about it.
    We had this discussion in another forum - apparently many leaders of the anti-gay movement in the US have turned out to be closeted homo- or bisexuals. Only I'm not so certain it's that money, it's just that it makes more of a splash... was it something like that or were they suggesting that historical Nazism was a gay movement?
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by dpcris85 View Post
    I'd suggest "tautosexual", as in "tautology"
    I approve. I'm now calling myself a tautosexual.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

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    I can't talk for the rest of the thread, but I think they would say something similar.
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    Thank you all for the caring remarks.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    We had this discussion in another forum - apparently many leaders of the anti-gay movement in the US have turned out to be closeted homo- or bisexuals. Only I'm not so certain it's that money, it's just that it makes more of a splash... was it something like that or were they suggesting that historical Nazism was a gay movement?
    I think that they were going "Neo-Nazi -> Messed up -> homosexual" based on the word they used for Homosexual. or they could be corrilating the BDSM thing associated with Nazis (Even though I hate that association, as well, the connection is slightly more sound than the previous.)

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    By this logic, every heterosexual is interested in every member of the opposite sex.
    i said these questions occur, not that they arent absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpcris85 View Post
    I'd suggest "tautosexual", as in "tautology"
    good enough!
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by dpcris85 View Post
    I'd suggest "tautosexual", as in "tautology"
    May I humbly recommend against that, as its (tauto) use in Greek is partly a reflexive pronoun. - meaning it could be validly interpreted as "attracted to oneself."
    Last edited by Kneenibble; 2011-04-18 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    May I humbly recommend against that, as its (tauto) use in Greek is partly a reflexive pronoun. - meaning it could be validly interpreted as "attracted to oneself."
    Well, either A. most people are anyway or B. if they are it's the most metaphysically impossible sexual attraction to fulfill ever.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    What? I can show you how to fulfill it in five minutes, baby.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    What? I can show you how to fulfill it in five minutes, baby.
    No, that's option A. Option B. requires a separate body that is also you. The closest one can get is a clone and the closest we can conceptualize is an alternate timeline/universe version of one's self. Neither of which is one's self.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    A message from an anonymous person:

    Coming out of the closet... Everyone knows it can be really, really
    difficult. I expected some name-calling, some tears, but I figured that
    eventually everyone would get over the realization and I'd be happier for
    it. Here's the thing; people don't believe me. Apparently, a large portion
    of my friends and family think bisexuals are people who are either straight
    and trying to get attention or are afraid to be gay. Somehow, this is
    incredibly frustrating. I know I shouldn't care, but when people tell the
    people I'm interested that I'm actually just using them to deny my true
    sexual orientation, it gets annoying. Have any of you lovely people
    experienced this? Any advice on what I should do?
    Still not really here. Still just an illusion.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    I've dealt with that kind of biphobia before.

    It also appears to have sexist elements. For example the opinions I seem to run across the most are bisexual women are straight but playing it up for attention and bisexual men are gay but in denial. The worst part is it seems to come from both hetero- and homosexual individuals.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    God that is stupid. Unfortunately for you, Anonymous, there isn't really much you can do, as far as I know (I will ask my bisexual friends about how they have dealt with this). The problem is, the people who assume as such will probably not listen to anything you say, no matter what you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    NOTHING is simple. NO EXCEPTIONS. No, not even that.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    That's very unfortunate. I have several bi friends so I'm aware of biphobia even though I'm straight.

    I think there are some cases of women who are mostly straight but experiment and are quick to "come out" and call themselves bi, and there are some cases of gay guys who find is easier to first label themselves as bi.

    But just because both do exist doesn't mean all bi people are that. It's like saying that because there are some gay people who pretend to be straight, that means all straight people are secretly gay. That's just silly, in my opinion.

    There isn't much you can do if you're bi, except staying true to yourself and hoping that people will see that you're you... But yeah, that has to be harsh. I mean, it's not just being rejected or not being accepted, it's not being believed that what you are actually exists. That's pretty hard core.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut Gallery View Post
    I've dealt with that kind of biphobia before.

    It also appears to have sexist elements. For example the opinions I seem to run across the most are bisexual women are straight but playing it up for attention and bisexual men are gay but in denial. The worst part is it seems to come from both hetero- and homosexual individuals.
    And somehow implies that men are so irresistible that unless you convert all the way one way or the other, you'll always come back to the penis's siren call.

    But yeah, to the anonymous. They'll just have to deal with it if they believe you or not. If it's "easier" for them to comprehend you "choosing" one side or the other. Let 'em.

    If you really wanna screw with them, though, find someone really androgynous and not tell them which it is.

    Again, it's not about the definition that's important, its' what you feel is right. Take myself. I identify myself as gay even though my preference is really more of a 75:25 ratio of male to female.
    Last edited by Beelzebub1111; 2011-04-18 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    If you really wanna screw with them, though, find someone really androgynous and not tell them which it is.
    Speaking of which, an adorably androgynous... person, who I have met at various LGBTQIA events in the twin cities, is going out with another friend who I met at similar LGBTQIA events in the twin cities, who is bi. They are seriously adorable, and are destroying gender roles so viciously that I can see the smoking carcass. It is wonderful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    NOTHING is simple. NO EXCEPTIONS. No, not even that.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Again, it's not about the definition that's important, its' what you feel is right. Take myself. I identify myself as gay even though my preference is really more of a 75:25 ratio of male to female.
    I think that's an important point. We can't have a word for every ratio. And some people mind find it misleading if you say you're bi when you're attracted to one gender much more than another. Some other people will think that unless you're 100% bi or straight you should say you're bi.
    Ultimately, you should use what feels most like you, because you're ideally placed to know who you are.

    Incidentally, I've heard similar "you don't exist" things about asexual people (regardless of their romantic attraction). I think a lot of people just can't wrap their heads around things that are too different from them. I think for bisexuality the reasoning is "males and females are so different, you can't possibly like both!" Which is silly, as people don't apply the same logic to other areas of their lives. For instance, I like ice-cream AND fruit salad, even though they're obviously different desserts, and nobody is going to tell me it's impossible.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by 742 View Post
    i said these questions occur, not that they arent absurd.
    And as I said, making up brand new categories to accommodate these absurd questions is just legitimising them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    And as I said, making up brand new categories to accommodate these absurd questions is just legitimising them.
    Agreed. Explanation, Education, sure, but that stuff...bleck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut Gallery View Post
    I've dealt with that kind of biphobia before.

    It also appears to have sexist elements. For example the opinions I seem to run across the most are bisexual women are straight but playing it up for attention and bisexual men are gay but in denial. The worst part is it seems to come from both hetero- and homosexual individuals.
    I take it as a small blessing that most of the cases that actually hold with that sort of belief have petered out or become confined to backwater areas such as schools that handle minors so I haven't had to watch people decrying the bad stereotype while people paraded around the bad stereotype and lived it while other people believed the bad stereotype was universal and decried bisexuals for it in quite a while. Was rather depressing to watch.

    ...Or maybe that was just a localized trend when I was young where there actually was a spike of people claiming to be bi falsely in order to get attention because it was trendy to do so. Unfortunately people don't seem to have realized that it's mostly ceased if it was ever a real thing in the first place... or if it was a thing, then it was likely caused by them believing that so people started acting in accordance with that belief.

    ...I do rather heavily suspect that people started doing it for attention at my old school merely because of the public perception that bi was the new black and so on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Again, it's not about the definition that's important, its' what you feel is right.
    Actually, it kind of is important to use language in a way that others will understand us and to internalize the actual definitions of words so that our beliefs about them aren't misinterpreted by others. So, no, I must disagree with you quite strongly and oppose any kind of effort to give up on being capable of communicating coherently in favor of merely saying whatever feels right rather than what actually says what we mean in any context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    And somehow implies that men are so irresistible that unless you convert all the way one way or the other, you'll always come back to the penis's siren call.
    Mostly it's that people believe women claim to be bisexual merely to seem more exotic and draw additional attention from men, not that they're actually bisexual in my experience with such beliefs and the people who hold with them. So they don't think women can't resist men if they don't become out and out lesbians, it's that they don't believe these women are actually bisexual in the first place for whatever reason but instead that the women are simply lying for attention.

    So you're giving things a bit more credit about being on the up and up and existing than they do in your assumptions of the situation, at least, I think so as a result of my experiences with this sort of belief as I encountered it during my secondary education.

    Anonymous: If they're worth your time, they won't believe misinformation that you're only using them to lie about your true sexuality. Simple as that.

    Now the real problem is with your friends doing this to you... Well, it sounds like you're going to need to have a sit down and chat with them about violating the sacred bonds of friendship in attempting to shoot you down before you even go on a date in addition to the whole thing of friendship being a relationship of mutual respect and trust and how calling you a liar or stupid or deluded to your face definitely inhibits mutual respect and trust.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-04-18 at 09:52 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    And as I said, making up brand new categories to accommodate these absurd questions is just legitimising them.
    so whats "pansexual"? ive heard it used, and im pretty sure its not an attraction to cookware.

    maybe a better explanation would be that "im attracted to people im attracted to" is neither explicitly inclusive or exclusive of anything, making any assumption far wackier. it also does not acknowledge or validate any social/human construct other than the concept of sexual attraction, discrete entities, some definition of "person", and a self; all things assumed in most human interaction except with philosophy students, physicists, and trolls. thats the big reason i want a good single word for it.
    Last edited by 742; 2011-04-19 at 02:16 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

    Quote Originally Posted by 742 View Post
    so whats "pansexual"?
    Go back to earlier in this thread. We had a long discussion about that.

    Alternatively, ask Wikipedia.
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