[3.P] Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?

[Endarire]

Some spells are poorly worded or seemingly made without balance in mind. I'm including 3.5 and Pathfinder versions here; make it clear which version you reference. Also, tell the source (if not core) and why.

(I already started a list in the background, but this will help me expand it.)

[Big Fau]

You could just check the God Wizard handbook. That's got a solid list of spells that could use reworking.

Actually, any of the spells recommended in those handbooks (Cleric, Druid, etc). You know where to look.

[Rogue Shadows]

This thread is relevant to my interests, though I'm principally only interested in Core Rulebook spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Polymoprh. You make the fighter redundant by transforming into a dragon without a breath weapon, and you're faster than him too, and you can fly.

[fryplink]

Gate and Shapechange are great candidates as well, being of course on of the wizard's (and a few other classes) many "I win" buttons.

[Drachasor]

I'd say all save or dies/lose. It's a very broken binary mechanic...you either make a save or are taken out, and can easily be targeted at low saves. If an enemy did 200 points of damage in one attack at 10th level, we'd say that was broken, but a save or die IS the equivalent and some people act like this is reasonable. It isn't. It is also part (not all) of the reason why casters are overpowered. Oh, and I don't think the ones (a subset) where PF decided to do 10 damage/level is balanced either (that's still enough to typically kill anyone in one shot).

Somewhat similarly, I'm leery of any spell that uses grapple mechanics, just because grapple mechanics are poorly balanced themselves.

Scry, Contact Other Plane, and other spells that gather information at a long distance need to be fixed. I think Scry should either require part of the person being scryed or a prepared item (that isn't magical) being placed on the person -- perhaps some means of scrying over a prepared area or area you've lived in a long time (so a NPC druid can scry over anywhere in HIS forest at least as long as he is there). Contact Other Plane and similar spells just need to have the idea they necessarily provide definitive answers completely removed (e.g. remove the table).

Other divinations need some work. I think True Seeing, for instance, really needs tweaking. It's pretty overpowered in how it makes Illusions completely useless. At the very least it needs Caster power check against other illusions (and perhaps grant a bonus to saves against some things).

Hmm, Explosive Runes needs a limit to how many you can make and/or not allowing the explosions to stack (e.g. 10 in the same area do the same amount of damage as 1 if they go off together).

I agree with how Alter Self, Polymorph, etc need adjusting. At the very least they should have limits on the physical changes they can do in terms of stat adjustments. Perhaps harsher than that.

Ability Score killers like Shivering Touch need to probably just get removed and just replaced with penalties to specific activities (like a -3 penalty on all dex-based rolls or something).

Anything that uses Experience could probably be gone over carefully. A ton of spells try to balance themselves with XP costs...and it really isn't a great way to do it (nor is gold honestly, but few spells actually try to be balanced around gold costs).

Some spells like Fabricate (e.g. skill replacers) should be fixed. Probably better to have them work as buffs...so you cast Fabricate to make a group of people better at crafting. That way you still need others, a wizard just makes it more efficient.

Edit: Oh, and buffs need some limits. Might be as simple as just specifying a max number of buffs that can be placed on someone at once.

There's really a lot of things.

Just remember you shouldn't be trying to bring a wizard's contribution down to a Fighter's level. That's insane. Aim for a Bard, Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage, Dread Necromancer, Factotum, or any number of other Tier 3 classes. Ones below that should be buffed, imho.

[Zeta Kai]

Gate and Shapechange are great candidates as well, being of course on of the wizard's (and a few other classes) many "I win" buttons.

We've got gate covered already, taking out some of the abuse potential, while still allowing it to do its job. Mordenkainen's disjunction, too.

[Necroticplague]

Streamers (depending on reading, it either insta-gibs you if you do anything, or does basically nothing).

[Saintheart]

Antilife Shell.

Seriously, how the hell does this spell work?
Does Freedom of Movement negate it?
Can you Teleport through it?
What does "may be used defensively, not aggressively" mean? If you fall out of the sky onto a target, does it collapse, since it wasn't (arguably) an intentionally aggressive use of the Shell?
What in Gygax's name does "hedges out" mean?
Does your chewing gum lose its flavour on the bedpost overnight?
Or is it all too horrible to contemplate?

[Drachasor]

Antilife Shell.

Seriously, how the hell does this spell work?
Does Freedom of Movement negate it?
Can you Teleport through it?
What does "may be used defensively, not aggressively" mean? If you fall out of the sky onto a target, does it collapse, since it wasn't (arguably) an intentionally aggressive use of the Shell?
What in Gygax's name does "hedges out" mean?
Does your chewing gum lose its flavour on the bedpost overnight?
Or is it all too horrible to contemplate?

It's pretty clear what it means, but it's overpowered as hell. Living things cannot move INTO the area it wards. If the caster moves towards them (aggressive), then they can get in, but if the caster moves away again so they are outside, then they are stuck outside. ("hedges out" means "keeps out" btw). A falling creature, it seems would either land on the top of the shell or slide to the ground on the side of it, depending on the DM.

This means a druid can cast this, be wild shaped, then be the only thing capable of charging. Enemies can't charge him (shell is too small if he forces them in), but he can freely charge them). He also totally controls who can enter melee combat with him. Doesn't help against ranged attacks, granted, but totally controlling melee attacks like that is OP, imho.

With freedom of movement it is unclear how it works. Technically a Wall of Force "impedes movement" so can FoM allow you to move through one without effort?

[Saintheart]

It's pretty clear what it means, but it's overpowered as hell. Living things cannot move INTO the area it wards. If the caster moves towards them (aggressive), then they can get in, but if the caster moves away again so they are outside, then they are stuck outside. ("hedges out" means "keeps out" btw). A falling creature, it seems would either land on the top of the shell or slide to the ground on the side of it, depending on the DM.

This means a druid can cast this, be wild shaped, then be the only thing capable of charging. Enemies can't charge him (shell is too small if he forces them in), but he can freely charge them). He also totally controls who can enter melee combat with him. Doesn't help against ranged attacks, granted, but totally controlling melee attacks like that is OP, imho.

With freedom of movement it is unclear how it works. Technically a Wall of Force "impedes movement" so can FoM allow you to move through one without effort?

Well, this is the thing: Antilife Shell only says it stops creatures entering the field. Say a creature has a polearm and you're Wild Shaped to Large inside the field; I would have thought you could get hit, since the Shell is not blocking a living thing -- only the polearm is hitting you. Also, the Shell collapses if you use it aggressively, which I had thought meant the spell outright ends.

Or let's say you, as the caster, are trying to move through a five foot gap with two of your friends on either side of that gap. That's not an aggressive use of the field, but can the spell read the caster's intention? Does the spell mindread the caster to divine what's intended aggressive action? What if you take a particular spot so a creature can't retreat and thus get smacked by one of your friends -- there's no "aggressive" use by you of the shell, so would that work?

[Drachasor]

Well, this is the thing: Antilife Shell only says it stops creatures entering the field. Say a creature has a polearm and you're Wild Shaped to Large inside the field; I would have thought you could get hit, since the Shell is not blocking a living thing -- only the polearm is hitting you. Also, the Shell collapses if you use it aggressively, which I had thought meant the spell outright ends.

Hmm, I missed that somehow. As for reach weapons, widening the shell would do the trick. I probably missed that because like you said later, you'll inevitable collapse the field. Move an inch to the right and you let insects in, collapsing it. Maybe that's why I didn't use it on my druid (it was many years ago, and I wasn't trying to get more power since I was already doing as well as the rest of the party combined).

[Blisstake]

I'd say all save or dies/lose. It's a very broken binary mechanic...you either make a save or are taken out, and can easily be targeted at low saves. If an enemy did 200 points of damage in one attack at 10th level, we'd say that was broken, but a save or die IS the equivalent and some people act like this is reasonable. It isn't. It is also part (not all) of the reason why casters are overpowered. Oh, and I don't think the ones (a subset) where PF decided to do 10 damage/level is balanced either (that's still enough to typically kill anyone in one shot).

I think that's beyond the scope of re-writting the most broken spells. That would require an entire change to game mechanics, especially since that would heavily lower the value of save boosting items and abilities. While they may be too powerful or prolific, we should perhaps concentrate on specific spells rather than a large category.

The PF changes actually do allow tougher character to survive a good chunk of the time in my experiences. Anyone with d10+ hit dice and a decent con investement (18+), can usually survive these. Not saying PF fixed the issue, but the changes are noticeable.

Somewhat similarly, I'm leery of any spell that uses grapple mechanics, just because grapple mechanics are poorly balanced themselves.

The only core spell I can think of that uses grappling mechanics is Black Tentacles. Even if grappling was nerfed a bit (and size bonuses reduced), it's still a problem in PF. I think the spell should be modified to allow sufficient damage to destroy the tentacles or something.

Scry, Contact Other Plane, and other spells that gather information at a long distance need to be fixed. I think Scry should either require part of the person being scryed or a prepared item (that isn't magical) being placed on the person -- perhaps some means of scrying over a prepared area or area you've lived in a long time (so a NPC druid can scry over anywhere in HIS forest at least as long as he is there). Contact Other Plane and similar spells just need to have the idea they necessarily provide definitive answers completely removed (e.g. remove the table).

I've never really felt that Scrying was an issue. There are ways to work around it, and if I recall correctly it allows a will save to resist being watched or something. Contact Other Plane, on the other hand, is incredibly risky, and even then often provides incorrect information. I've never had much of an issue with that spell either... maybe there's something I'm not considering with them?

Other divinations need some work. I think True Seeing, for instance, really needs tweaking. It's pretty overpowered in how it makes Illusions completely useless. At the very least it needs Caster power check against other illusions (and perhaps grant a bonus to saves against some things).

Maybe if it gives you automatic saves against all illusions you encounter (rolled secretly)? I think it should still see through Mirror Images and Invisibility automatically, though.

Hmm, Explosive Runes needs a limit to how many you can make and/or not allowing the explosions to stack (e.g. 10 in the same area do the same amount of damage as 1 if they go off together).

Agreed. I think PF did that.

I agree with how Alter Self, Polymorph, etc need adjusting. At the very least they should have limits on the physical changes they can do in terms of stat adjustments. Perhaps harsher than that.

True enough. Not much of a problem in PF, incidentally (not saying it was handled exceptionally well - just that it's not really a problem for DMs any more)

Anything that uses Experience could probably be gone over carefully. A ton of spells try to balance themselves with XP costs...and it really isn't a great way to do it (nor is gold honestly, but few spells actually try to be balanced around gold costs).

True - In my opinion they should just do away with the cost and have a lesser effect. Stuff like permanency should still be based on gold (and is in PF, I think).

Some spells like Fabricate (e.g. skill replacers) should be fixed. Probably better to have them work as buffs...so you cast Fabricate to make a group of people better at crafting. That way you still need others, a wizard just makes it more efficient.

By the time you get fabricate though, is it really that bad that you can make mundane equipment. It also still requires a craft check from the wizard, doesn't it? (I'm pretty sure it does in PF, anyway)

Edit: Oh, and buffs need some limits. Might be as simple as just specifying a max number of buffs that can be placed on someone at once.

Eh... that doesn't seem like a very elegant solution. I've never had much of a problem with buff spamming, though.

Other core problem spells:

Teleport/Plane Shift: I think these should have a 1 minute casting time. This maintains their utility out of combat, but doesn't allow you to escape any unfavorable situation that you'd like. Dimension Door should maybe require your destination to be in Line of Sight?

Gate: I don't think I need to explain this one. Somewhat nerfed in PF - not sure if by enough though (I'm a bit shaky on it having a material component, now)

Time Stop: Not sure what to do with this. I introduced a spell that functions like dimensional anchor, but also counters time-altering effects, but that's not a very elegent fix, to quote myself.

Also, not a problem with spells themselves, but metamagic rods should also be looked at. Specifically, I don't think they should allow you to cast a spell with an effective sell level over 9.

[Psyren]

Most divinaton spells need to be reworded so that people know exactly the kinds of questions you can and can't expect answers to. As they are, they do nothing but create 50-page debates on forums, or make them useless at the game table.

Planar Binding and Planar Ally could use some tweaking as well.

[Arbane]

Time Stop: Not sure what to do with this. I introduced a spell that functions like dimensional anchor, but also counters time-altering effects, but that's not a very elegent fix, to quote myself.

The problem I can immediately see is that you'd need to cast it before the Timestop. Unless it had a really long duration and was either a personal buff (if anyone else casts Timestop, you get 'brought along') or affects a large area ('no time-wimey stuff allowed here').

But either way, it still has another problem - you're relying on a Magic Bullet (which may or may not be available) to counter the game-breaker.

[LaughingRogue]

Alter self --- makes me laugh
Polymorph -- facepalm
gate --- solar chain gate
Celerity --- add in the next two
Contingency
Time stop


there's alot --- i'd wager that in any book that has new spells --- there is probably more than one that is just broken/ can be abused in some horrid way.

Edit :: and as a DM I personally hate any/all divination spells and the mass confusion/lies/trickery that they bring

Also I'd like to point out that I posted and unless chrome or cookies are screwing with me --- this post hasn't bumped and i'm not listed as the last poster.

[ShriekingDrake]

Rockburst is in need of some editing.

[Pigkappa]

[...]

All of these, plus the travelling ones who accidentally make you able to save the whole party everytime you have a standard action (Dimension Door could have Short range, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift could have a longer casting time, Word of Recall could be Personal, and so on), plus the ones who break action economy (Celerity is the worst one), plus Gate.

Also, some Enchantment spells need to be fixed. The texts of Charm Person and Suggestion can't say that the target will not commit suicide for you and then include "jump in this pool of green boiling water" or "fight that dragon for me" as reasonable examples.

[Retech]

Pathfinder spell: Terrible Remorse

The enemy loses their turn even if they make their save.

...

Get a wand and win every boss encounter if you win initiative or don't get squashed before you can cast

[Lastgrasp]

Pathfinder spell: Terrible Remorse

The enemy loses their turn even if they make their save.

...

Get a wand and win every boss encounter if you win initiative or don't get squashed before you can cast

[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
FAQ/Errata
If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse, do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.
[Source]
Official Update: In the description of the terrible remorse spell, change the final sentence to read as follows:
"If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends."
Editor's Note: The updated wording has been applied to the spell text below.


It's not that bad.

[Pigkappa]

It is. If you make the save, you lose 1 turn! If you have to fight a single BBEG this is awful.

[stainboy]

I'd say all save or dies/lose. It's a very broken binary mechanic...you either make a save or are taken out, and can easily be targeted at low saves. If an enemy did 200 points of damage in one attack at 10th level, we'd say that was broken, but a save or die IS the equivalent and some people act like this is reasonable. It isn't. It is also part (not all) of the reason why casters are overpowered. Oh, and I don't think the ones (a subset) where PF decided to do 10 damage/level is balanced either (that's still enough to typically kill anyone in one shot).

Yeah this. It would require changing how debuffs work though. We don't want to just say "Hold Person is banned because it's overpowered." We need a setting for Hold Person between you-lose and nothing. Probably a scheme like fear or sickening/nausea, but for everything. So almost every SoL turns into this mad lib:

Cause [Condition]
If the target fails its [Fort/Ref/Will] save, it becomes [Sickened equivalent]. If the target's current hit points are less than [n] x your caster level, it becomes [Nauseated equivalent] instead. Two [Sickened equivalent] effects become one [Nauseated equivalent] effect as normal.

Also, put names to this. Let's call the special stacking scheme Escalation, the least severe debuff is called the Base Condition, and any debuff worse (nauseated, frightened, panicked, etc) is called Escalated. Now we can write crap like this:

Lolbossmonster Immunity (Ex): Plutonium dragons are immune to escalated conditions. They always suffer the base condition instead. Two base conditions of the same type overlap instead of escalating.

Thoughts?

[ILM]

Re: Save or Dies, I've implemented a houserule a few sessions back and it seems to be working fairly well so far.
a) Death occurs when at or below -10 hp. From the moment you go below -10, you have one round before you are dead - meaning your pals get one round to get you back up. If you fall in the low negatives and just bleed to death, that works out to one extra round. If you get omgwtfcritted, well your buddies get an extra chance to save you if they can push enough healing in one round. Note: this balances out with my near-complete removal of all means of resurrection.
b) Save-or-dies bring to to -10 hp instead. If they carry a secondary effect (such as Detonate's 20d6 explosion to adjacent targets) it happens after you actually die, one round later (unless saved).
If you don't want to go that far, a houserule that says save-or-dies brings you to -1 or -5 or -9 hp could work as well.

I don't mind other save-or-sucks too much as by and large they can be recovered from.

[Blisstake]

Terrible remorse is a dumb spell, but it is affected by spell resistance, it's compulsion spell (a few ways to resist those), and it can only affect a single enemy at a time. If a player's abusing it, there are defnitely ways to go around it.

However, I think we're just looking at core spells here.

(Also, I'm not really a fan of how I deal with Time Stop, so I was wondering if anyone else had some good ideas - not that anyone should do what I did!)

[Akisa]

PF's Solid Fog.

[Retech]

Terrible remorse is a dumb spell, but it is affected by spell resistance, it's compulsion spell (a few ways to resist those), and it can only affect a single enemy at a time. If a player's abusing it, there are defnitely ways to go around it.

However, I think we're just looking at core spells here.

(Also, I'm not really a fan of how I deal with Time Stop, so I was wondering if anyone else had some good ideas - not that anyone should do what I did!)

That was just Rogue Sniper with his personal interests, not the thread creator.

[Drachasor]

Yeah this. It would require changing how debuffs work though. We don't want to just say "Hold Person is banned because it's overpowered." We need a setting for Hold Person between you-lose and nothing. Probably a scheme like fear or sickening/nausea, but for everything. So almost every SoL turns into this mad lib:

Cause [Condition]
If the target fails its [Fort/Ref/Will] save, it becomes [Sickened equivalent]. If the target's current hit points are less than [n] x your caster level, it becomes [Nauseated equivalent] instead. Two [Sickened equivalent] effects become one [Nauseated equivalent] effect as normal.

Also, put names to this. Let's call the special stacking scheme Escalation, the least severe debuff is called the Base Condition, and any debuff worse (nauseated, frightened, panicked, etc) is called Escalated. Now we can write crap like this:

Lolbossmonster Immunity (Ex): Plutonium dragons are immune to escalated conditions. They always suffer the base condition instead. Two base conditions of the same type overlap instead of escalating.

Thoughts?

I have considered a Condition Track like SW SAGA has. That can account for straight minuses to attack/defense. Status Effects could interact with that, getting worse as you go down that track. If you aren't down at all, a condition does nothing. If you go down it a "paralyze" effect might first become a slow, than not allow movement from your square, then at the bottom you are fully paralyzed (you are out then by that point anyhow). Note that a lot of conditions could be summarized into relatively few effects (getting turned to stone is a type of paralysis).

So you might go:
0: Status has no effect on that character
-1 and -2: Mild effect
-5 and -10: Significant Effect
Taken Out: Taken Out Effect (e.g. turned to stone, dead, whatever).

Save or Die effects then become Condition Track attacks, some or all of which attach a status.

Edit: Balancing these effects might require expanding the track a bit so there are more "rungs" compared to SW: SAGA

[Eldan]

Astral Projection is... wonky. It's probably just supposed to be a convenient way of planar travel, but as it works, it not only makes you quasi-untouchable, it also doubles all your gear.

[Eldan]

Astral Projection is... wonky. It's probably just supposed to be a convenient way of planar travel, but as it works, it not only makes you quasi-untouchable, it also doubles all your gear.

[HunterOfJello]

I think the spell Resurgence from the Spell Compendium could use a rewrite to make things clearer. The spell says, "The subject of a resurgence spell can
make a second attempt to save against an ongoing spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, such as dominate person." However, based on reading the spell I'm not sure if the creator's intended for it to apply to spells with Permanent or Instantaneous durations. Also, the spell doesn't have any kind of limit of the number of times it can be turned into the equivalent of several much higher level spells.

I like the idea behind the spell, but I think it can become a bit too useful for its level (1st level spell). Putting Resurgence on a 1st level wand and using it to duplicate Remove Curse, Remove Disease, or Break Enchantment spell is just inappropriate.