[d20r Class] Barbarian

[Morty]

I'm glad that you like them. Immediate actions would indeed be good, but even if you come up with decent ones, they might not be something Fax wants, if I understand his intentions correctly.

[Fax Celestis]

No, they are. Just everyone should have equal access to them. In core, being a spellcaster immediately meant getting another kind of action, since nothing that wasn't a spell could use a swift action.

[MammonAzrael]

Given the aggressive nature of the barbarian, I've been thinking that both abilities should be offensive in nature.

I'm considering an Int-based Reflex save or the next attack the barbarian makes is a crit if it hits (or an increased crit chance), as the barbarian finds the perfect places to strike.

And a Wis-based Fortitude save or any creature attacked by the barbarian is fatigued for a round, as the barbarian's focus allows him to intuitively know when and where his attacks will strain and tire the opponent the most.

Thoughts?

[Doc Roc]

What is the target tier here?

[Fax Celestis]

What is the target tier here?

Somewhere between two and three.

[Doc Roc]

So:

A Level 5 Barbarian is faced with a sheer 50ft canyon. Due to his own... endeavors, the flood has washed out the bridge. How does he cross?

A Level 5 Barbarian is being harried by a Hellcat during the day. How does he track it and kill it?

A Level 5 Barbarian is being addressed by the courtiers of the Emperor, who want him to pay taxes. How does he weasel out?

[MammonAzrael]

Well...

If the 50 ft. canyon is still flooded, then swim checks will be the easy method. If it isn't, then you're facing a larger challenge. The natures aren't completed, but they're the best chance at flying through this challenge. Otherwise...100 ft. of rope and grappling hook? Flight isn't really an ability that fits a barbarian...though long jumping I can see.

After glaring at your DM for sending a CR 7 creature against your level 5 lonesome, I'm not sure what you'll do. Thus far the barbarian doesn't really have much to handle invisible enemies. Blind-Fight is his best bet, I think...but that isn't a feature of the class, rather a feat.

The Intimidate skill should work well here.

[Doc Roc]

Would it make a difference if the barbarian was ECL 7, and there were two?

He's tier four, by my guess.

[MammonAzrael]

I'm working on the class right now, adding keywords and some abilities...do you have any suggestions for ways to bring the class up a tier, aside from working on finishing the Natures (and making sure the natures offer plenty of non-combat related bonuses)?

I mean, natures and skills are really the ways in which a barbarian will interact with the world in a non-combat fashion. Unless you can think of anything else that fits thematically?

[UserShadow7989]

Hm... In primitive tribes, one would be expected to pick up a skill or trade that helps the tribe as a whole. Maybe represent that by having them select one skill set and giving them a bonus when making skill checks for skills from that set, let them pick an additional skill set to add to the ones they have, or allow them to choose an improving feat they get X free prowess for in every X levels?

Giving them a boost to carrying capacity/strength checks to break objects certainly opens doors (and walls), the former letting them lug around more equipment without taking penalties and the latter allowing them to create shortcuts or brute force their way through locked or barricaded doors/paths.

Perhaps their move speed bonus can apply to swim and climb speeds as well? Being able to scale walls or swim through a river quickly is a small touch that can help out once in a blue moon.

Another possibility is the ability to inflict fear effects or stun a target while 'focused'. Perhaps a war cry or series powerful blows or an air of cold efficiency affects their enemies? How about the ability to ignore the first few points of DR on a target when focused?

I'm reaching with some of these and half asleep, but just some additional options to consider.

[Morty]

I honestly don't think this class is tier four. If nothing else, it can do everything the PHB barbarian can do, and the PHB barbarian is tier three. He can't bypass skill checks, but why should he? Skills are there for a reason. He won't be using all of them obviously, because no class is supposed to be self-reliant.

[UserShadow7989]

Barbarians in 3.5e are tier four, actually. They have one good thing- Rage- and little else going for them. Trap Sense doesn't have the matching Disable Device to go with it, and the Fast Movement doesn't scale past the first 10 ft. (making it mostly minor at higher levels).

Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge is good but not enough to carry a class, the Rage Improvements are decent but come too late, Will Save bonus is nice but not extremely helpful, and Damage Reduction is nice but so low in number that it's only average.

So they have two genuinely good things they can do (Rage and Imp. Uncanny Dodge), both of which are only helpful for dealing with straightforward combat and fights you've properly prepared for.

This remix, if I had to guess, is around lower/mid tier three once the Natures are completed and factored in.

[Morty]

So he is. Looks like I was misremembering it. Oh, well. I suppose that the Natures might be enough to elevate the class.

[lesser_minion]

Would it make a difference if the barbarian was ECL 7, and there were two?

He's tier four, by my guess.

I'm not sure that being tier 4 is really a problem though.

Tier four is defined as one of two different things:

• Able to do one thing quite well, but not able to contribute when that thing isn't useful or appropriate.
• Able to do many things to a reasonable degree of competence without ever truly shining.

While the first form might be pretty horrible, the second form seems OK to me.

Overall, I think tier 3.5 is closer to the ideal balance point for D&D than tier 2.5. Tier 3.5 would imply a default scenario where the players have enough to win if they stay on the ball, whereas tier 2.5 implies that the characters will have far more than they need to deal with virtually anything they are likely to face.

[Doc Roc]

I'm not sure that being tier 4 is really a problem though.

Tier four is defined as one of two different things:

• Able to do one thing quite well, but not able to contribute when that thing isn't useful or appropriate.
• Able to do many things to a reasonable degree of competence without ever truly shining.

While the first form might be pretty horrible, the second form seems OK to me.

Overall, I think tier 3.5 is closer to the ideal balance point for D&D than tier 2.5. Tier 3.5 would imply a default scenario where the players have enough to win if they stay on the ball, whereas tier 2.5 implies that the characters will have far more than they need to deal with virtually anything they are likely to face.

Have you looked at cleric? Or any of the casters? They're hardly diminished in power at all. Maybe they're pushed down to tier two.

I honestly don't think this class is tier four. If nothing else, it can do everything the PHB barbarian can do, and the PHB barbarian is tier three. He can't bypass skill checks, but why should he? Skills are there for a reason. He won't be using all of them obviously, because no class is supposed to be self-reliant.

Barb is t4. Even with the excellent material available for him in supplementals, such as the instantaneous rage, intimidating rage, imperious command combo meal for playing Doctor Shouts. This class will be lucky to be Tier 4.

[lesser_minion]

Have you looked at cleric? Or any of the casters? They're hardly diminished in power at all. Maybe they're pushed down to tier two.

I'm pretty sure I did say that it was an 'ideal'.

I haven't looked at the cleric in any real detail, although I know what has been done to it. I've mostly been ignoring the casters, since for the most part I don't think Fax is really doing enough to change them.

[MammonAzrael]

Hm... In primitive tribes, one would be expected to pick up a skill or trade that helps the tribe as a whole. Maybe represent that by having them select one skill set and giving them a bonus when making skill checks for skills from that set, let them pick an additional skill set to add to the ones they have, or allow them to choose an improving feat they get X free prowess for in every X levels?

Giving them a boost to carrying capacity/strength checks to break objects certainly opens doors (and walls), the former letting them lug around more equipment without taking penalties and the latter allowing them to create shortcuts or brute force their way through locked or barricaded doors/paths.

Perhaps their move speed bonus can apply to swim and climb speeds as well? Being able to scale walls or swim through a river quickly is a small touch that can help out once in a blue moon.

Another possibility is the ability to inflict fear effects or stun a target while 'focused'. Perhaps a war cry or series powerful blows or an air of cold efficiency affects their enemies? How about the ability to ignore the first few points of DR on a target when focused?

I'm reaching with some of these and half asleep, but just some additional options to consider.

Well these barbarians should be limited to just primitive tribes, but I like the skill boost. I could see that as a singular ability, or part of one of the lower tiers of instincts.

I could see the breaking things angle, but I think that is already covered by pumping up in a Focus (and taking the intensified focus ability to ignore hardness if they wish).

I like having their movement apply to other modes...perhaps at half the bonus. Doesn't really help with the tier issue, but it is a nice touch.

Read the intensified focus abilities.

This remix, if I had to guess, is around lower/mid tier three once the Natures are completed and factored in.

So he is. Looks like I was misremembering it. Oh, well. I suppose that the Natures might be enough to elevate the class.

Hmm...I think I need to give natures their own thread, and start to work filling those out.

<snip> tier opinions

I'd like to hit tier 3 if possible, as versatility is a wonderful thing.

Have you looked at cleric? Or any of the casters? They're hardly diminished in power at all. Maybe they're pushed down to tier two.

I'm pretty sure I did say that it was an 'ideal'.

I haven't looked at the cleric in any real detail, although I know what has been done to it. I've mostly been ignoring the casters, since none of them seem to be changing enough for me to actually like them.

True, while there are some playable caster chassis, none of them really feel solidly finished. The cleric has been notably limited it it's caster list, which is the biggest restriction. I don't know if Fax is planning to rewrite spells to balance things out, but AFAIK there haven't been any rumblings of doing so.

[Fax Celestis]

I haven't looked at the cleric in any real detail, although I know what has been done to it. I've mostly been ignoring the casters, since for the most part I don't think Fax is really doing enough to change them.

Severe spell access restriction is a pretty big deal.

True, while there are some playable caster chassis, none of them really feel solidly finished. The cleric has been notably limited it it's caster list, which is the biggest restriction. I don't know if Fax is planning to rewrite spells to balance things out, but AFAIK there haven't been any rumblings of doing so.

I am 3.2% done. I will be rewriting for clarity and for balance, as required.

[lesser_minion]

Severe spell access restriction is a pretty big deal.

While that is technically a change, it's not what I meant.

You haven't made any changes to the nature of cleric spellcasting beyond the move to spontaneous, which isn't really anything to write home about.

I'm still not sure why you abandoned your version 1.0 cleric, tbh.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm still not sure why you abandoned your version 1.0 cleric, tbh.

Because a system revamp takes less time than a system rewrite, and since I am familiar with the existing material I can patch holes in the meantime, rather than possibly creating new holes.

[MammonAzrael]

Well it seems like discussion of the barbarian can't really advance until the natures are more defined. Given that they're potentially features for both the barbarian and the ranger (and possibly others), I think its time they get their own thread.

Thinking on it, I'm growing to like natures more and more. It feels like a way for non-casters to have a common link, in the same way that spellcasting can link multiple different classes through variation. Anyways, I'll write up a post a new thread for them tonight.