Warhammer 40K Tabletop XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has room for!"

[Penguinizer]

You could use the dwarf miner pony.

[Winterwind]

Tyranids.

Don't really radiate "cute and adorable" though.
Squigs kinda do, but the wrong kind of adorable.

Oooh, there are Baby Dragon miniatures! Now that would be a must-have in such an army, no matter what it was!

You could use the dwarf miner pony.

Hmmm... can't quite find it. Would be an idea for just modeling the ponies; not so much for an entire pony-themed army though, I think.

[Ninja Chocobo]

You really think Space Marines having stormbolters instead of regular bolters, at the cost of being more expensive (and thus vulnerable to shooting, as well as bringing less of these bolters) and lacking a fair part of their longer ranged heavy options is going to make combat a non-issue?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, because while that's a fair opinion that I can't really argue against, I on the other hand think it's an absurd exaggeration. Their shooting may be very, very slightly better, by a tiny, tiny bit. Just enough to offset that they are worse in close combat against a horde than regular Marines are.

You have probably more than 1.5x the number of Bolter shots as a standard Marine army (potentially S5, though it is unknown whether that is cost-effective), as well as Psycannons, which are now among the best Heavy- and Assault- weapons that exist.
Also, S8 TLAC Dreads, ranged flamer templates, Henchmen squads with cheap firepower...
GK shooting is significantly better, and that's not even scratching the surface of Henchmen cheese.
going to bed now bye

[Winterwind]

You have probably more than 1.5x the number of Bolter shots as a standard Marine army (potentially S5, though it is unknown whether that is cost-effective), as well as Psycannons, which are now among the best Heavy- and Assault- weapons that exist.

Bolters that fail against good armour saves just as they always have, and allow you to kill all the more of them with less firepower. Grey Knights are hurt far more if you send a few AP3 shots their way. Psycannons are nice, but there's just a few of them, and they still struggle with 3+ armour.

Also, S8 TLAC Dreads, ranged flamer templates, Henchmen squads with cheap firepower...
GK shooting is significantly better, and that's not even scratching the surface of Henchmen cheese.
going to bed now bye

All of which are either expensive, vulnerable in some fashion or another (Henchmen either can't take fire at all, or you have to get them additional henchmen designed to take fire who can't do much else, which makes them fairly expensive for what they can do), or a combination thereof.

I can only repeat - I see no reason whatsoever for such a panic. It's just a codex like any other. It doesn't even have Obliterators or anything like that.

[Tarinaky]

Incidentally, how viable is an all terminator, or at least heavily terminator, army in the new GK codex? That was, to me, the only real appeal of the army fluff.

[hamishspence]

Points cost (and limited anti-tank abilities) might make them fall a little behind more competitive lists.

But that might still be good enough to do well.

Termies don't get dedicated transports though- so may need to Deep Strike, or come in Stormravens/Land Raiders.

[crazedloon]

All of which are either expensive, vulnerable in some fashion or another (Henchmen either can't take fire at all, or you have to get them additional henchmen designed to take fire who can't do much else, which makes them fairly expensive for what they can do), or a combination thereof.

this is not true as far as the dreds are concerned (at least to a experienced player) because they can easily hie behind rhino/razorback walls gaining a cover save without giving their targets a save. Add a nearby librarian (in a henchmen's chimera for maximum protection) giving them a 3+ cover save and they become hard to hurt. Add to that the fact that they ignore 2/3 of glancing hits and 1/3 penetrating hits on a ld10 psykic power and they become very very hard to hurt.

-Pretty much if you are not full of barrage high strength weapons they will have a cover save (so only guard can get past this)
-unless you have a means to shut down psykers they will ignore a good portion of your actual hits (so really only other marine armies and eldar can deal with it)

there are some suicide tactics which could potentially be used to deal with the problem but due to long range the dreds can sit onthe board edge hiding from such tactics and still be effective.

[Closet_Skeleton]

this is not true as far as the dreds are concerned (at least to a experienced player) because they can easily hie behind rhino/razorback walls gaining a cover save without giving their targets a save.

True line of sight.

If you have cover that stops me from seeing your guns, you can't shoot me.

A single gun dread can poke just the barrel out. A two gun dread will have problems.

[Winterwind]

In addition to that, Grey Knight dreads aren't that cheap at all (especially Venerable ones), and they don't have access to FA13 dreads. Also, they take up slots the Grey Knights require rather direly for most of their other toys to work - for example, to get the Land Raiders they have no access to otherwise to transport their precious heavy infantry around, or to get Purgation squads that actually have some of those wonderful psycannons.

[crazedloon]

I wish I had a picture of a dred behind a rhino (I tried to find one, so if someone has better googlefoo it may help this discusion) but they can see just fine over the rhinos' back.

The heavy support slot are full of traps which all try to do what the dreds can do but are worse at it. The biggest problem which grey knights have is short range. Those psycannons are great but if an opponent can stay at 31" they are ueless. However the long range autocannons gives you fire power down range all game.

Heavy infantry are mostly traps in the book. They are good and fun (don't get me wrong) but what the terminators/paladins can do, can be done cheaper and more efficiently by other units in the book. If you really need a "heavy troop transport" you can pick up a storm raven in the fast attack slot (a slot which is far less competitive with far less effective options.) but you are better off leaving the big guys at home.

so you have
-transports which are not needed
-you have gimmicky fire magnets
-you have a unit which tries to be long range fire support at the same range the rest of your army shoots (if you want psycannons as you should, you take them on your purifiers and strike squads)
-riflemen dreds (135 points if I recall correctly)

I would never suggest/take a venerable riflemen because than you are wasting points on some small boosts which rarely help.

[Hawkfrost000]

Well, I disagree with your assessment.
Tank Guard; Chimeras have five fire points, two fairly decent weapons, and the squads inside have three special weapons. Inside a vehicle, the only stat that counts is BS. And Guard have BS4. SAME AS Marines. For less than half the points. Then because all your squads are cheap as chips anyway, back your Chimeras up with the best tanks in the game.

fixed it for you...

but if i am correct that is not your average guard squad, isnt it a veteran squad? im probably wrong as i do not play guard but i am pretty sure that baseline guard (baseline humans) are BS 3

DM

[Arcanoi]

~snip~

I believe we covered this before, but having too many good options is not a handicap or weakness.

[Tarinaky]

Why would you ever conceivably buy transports for Terminators when they deep strike at no extra cost?

[Squark]

Does anyone have a link to a site I could use to do some research on tweaking my necron army at this point?

[hamishspence]

Why would you ever conceivably buy transports for Terminators when they deep strike at no extra cost?

Because they can't assault after they Deep Strike- meaning one full turn where they're exposed to the firepower of the enemy army.

In a transport like a Land Raider or a Stormraven- they can assault straight out of it- so not getting shot at.

[crazedloon]

I believe we covered this before, but having too many good options is not a handicap or weakness.

but they are not good options are the problem.

How often do land raiders actually make their points back in any sense of the phrase. There is a reason you rarely see them in other armies why would that change in GK.

MC have many weaknesses and the dred knight lacks the punch to deal with anything but small squads. If you deck him out to take advantage of his one cool ability (30" move) he cost an arm and a leg and runs into the land raider problem.

The purgation squads lack the range to do the job they try to fill and their weapons are better placed on other units who can spread the firepower around.

[Trixie]

Sigh. So much Ward hate. And so predictable, too. Remember the SW scare?

15 points troops with 3 attacks. Cheap Long Fangs. Most good SM toys. JAWS! of doom. Terminator troops. 2 meltaguns per unit.

And yet, the world hasn't ended, and SW ended up pretty balanced.

Oh, and so far, all three codices produced by Ward ended up exactly in the middle of 5th edition power, well, all 5th edition books are pretty balanced with each other, except for Tyranids. Calling them 'broken' because they are better fit to 5th edition that 3rd/4th edition books is... I don't even know how to call it.

Ward, to me, is guilty of two things - writting good, well-balanced (sometimes even too balanced, just look what he did to Mordrak) rules, and writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in, and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure. Oh, and he brought a lot of good ideas, races, and wargear from the RT/2nd edition back, which is nice, too.

I can't divine how can anyone call 3rd/4th Edition books of SM/GK better, given how crappy rules these had, and how boring, brief and dull fluff in these was. Seriously, Ward writes more fluff than these books had pages! And the criticism it gets is often baseless on second look, say, how this whole 'exhausted and disrupted BA force chooses not to pursue Necrons' is posed as some sort of Necron/BA alliance. True, Necrons should have pursued them, but they might have had their own reasons not to, and with new Necron Lords supposedly refluffed and with Ward helping to write new Necron Codex I'd guess he knows better than haters what he is doing.

Well, to sum things - I sincerely wish all who hate Ward to have their books written by someone 'competent' instead, say, people who wrote Necron Codex (with their one troop unit with one upgrade), who wrote books for 4th Ed Chaos Marines or created fluff/"rules" for Witch/Daemonhunters. After all, you want non-Ward book, so I sincerely wish you got what you want

Oh, and it understanding of current metagame is really as poor down under (no offence) as these posts about Guard/GK-scare forcing people to switch games/Ward rules led me to believe, then playing with comp scores isn't 5 times worse, it's 25 times worse than normal. I wait for announcement that taking GK codex will automatically give you -50 ladder points with bated breath

[hamishspence]

Ward, to me, is guilty of two things - writting good, well-balanced (sometimes even too balanced, just look what he did to Mordrak) rules, and writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in, and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure. Oh, and he brought a lot of good ideas, races, and wargear from the RT/2nd edition back, which is nice, too.

I can't divine how can anyone call 3rd/4th Edition books of SM/GK better, given how crappy rules these had, and how boring, brief and dull fluff in these was. Seriously, Ward writes more fluff than these books had pages! And the criticism it gets is often baseless on second look, say, how this whole 'exhausted and disrupted BA force chooses not to pursue Necrons' is posed as some sort of Necron/BA alliance. True, Necrons should have pursued them, but they might have had their own reasons not to, and with new Necron Lords supposedly refluffed and with Ward helping to write new Necron Codex I'd guess he knows better than haters what he is doing.

Up to a point I tend to agree- I think some of the dislike of Ward might be a little misplaced.

He's sometimes referred to as "the Karen Traviss of 40K" on B&C.

[Lycan 01]

So I'm probably gonna pick up that old Witch Hunter Inquisitor + Retinue kit at my local hobby shop. At 22 bucks, its too good a deal to pass up...

But. As much as I love the Witch Hunter Inquisitor model , there's one part about it I don't really like that much - the Inferno Pistol. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just doesn't seem like that great of a weapon choice. Plus, I think he'd look cooler with a bolter or something. But I'd rather not slap a bolter on him and then find out I gave him a bad weapon choice. Sooo... What would be a good replacement for the Inferno Pistol? I'm not asking for ~the best~ choice, but rather just some good suggestions so that he'll look cool and be WYSIWYG when used in the field.


I haven't yet gotten the Grey Knights Codex (dang its expensive!), but I can already guess that a "basic" Inquisitor without power/Terminator Armor (can they still take Termie armor? Surely they can... ) is probably "sub-par" compared to ones with said upgrades. I realize this. But as I said, I love this model kit, and I'd like to use it in my army. (Not as an HQ choice, of course. )

[Tarinaky]

It does feel like chapters like the Crimson Fists have been forgotten. Especially in favour of chapters like the Ultramarines - it's impossible to imagine anyone coming up with the name for them and their planet doing so with a straight face... >.>

Of course, this complaint is older than 5th edition.

Lycan_01: I consider the humble boltpistol to be a good, effective, choice of weapon for a character.

[hamishspence]

I haven't yet gotten the Grey Knights Codex (dang its expensive!), but I can already guess that a "basic" Inquisitor without power/Terminator Armor (can they still take Termie armor? Surely they can... ) is probably "sub-par" compared to ones with said upgrades. I realize this. But as I said, I love this model kit, and I'd like to use it in my army. (Not as an HQ choice, of course. )

Ordo Malleus can take Termie Armour, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos (which are in the army list) can't- but all are HQ.

If you don't want to use the model as an HQ, he might do as an Inquisitorial Henchman of some kind.

It does feel like chapters like the Crimson Fists have been forgotten. Especially in favour of chapters like the Ultramarines - it's impossible to imagine anyone coming up with the name for them and their planet doing so with a straight face... >.>

They got a chapter master in the 5E SM codex- and a paragraph or two of fluff.
It gave quite a few chapters a paragraph or so.

Unlike the 4E one.

[Lycan 01]

Ordo Malleus can take Termie Armour, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos (which are in the army list) can't- but all are HQ.

If you don't want to use the model as an HQ, he might do as an Inquisitorial Henchman of some kind.

Yes, but I've heard that with Coteaz as an HQ I can take Inquisitors + Retinues as Troops choices. Which I would probably do.

[Zorg]

Sigh. So much Ward hate. And so predictable, too. Remember the SW scare?

And yet, the world hasn't ended, and SW ended up pretty balanced.

Matt Ward didn't write Wolves

writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in,

Grey Knights murdering Sororitas and bathing in their blood... because GK's don't have enough Daemonic protection already

and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure.

Space Marines have had the same organisation since Rogue Trader. All Ward did was needlessly (and illogically) change the way scouts are assigned to squads.

Oh, and he brought a lot of good ideas, races, and wargear from the RT/2nd edition back, which is nice, too.

I doubt that's all his doing, or even majority. Guys like Jervis and Jes probably have more say in that regard.

And the criticism it gets is often baseless on second look, say, how this whole 'exhausted and disrupted BA force chooses not to pursue Necrons' is posed as some sort of Necron/BA alliance.

Actually the issue is with them choosing not to pursue those who "they had so recently fought alongside" - if it were Eldar or Tau, maybe, but Necrons? Blood Angels giving honour to the Necrons?
It'd be fine if the BA's wanted to bash heads but couldn't - it's that they chose not to because of honour that hacked people off.

Well, to sum things - I sincerely wish all who hate Ward to have their books written by someone 'competent' instead, say, people who wrote Necron Codex (with their one troop unit with one upgrade), who wrote books for 4th Ed Chaos Marines or created fluff/"rules" for Witch/Daemonhunters. After all, you want non-Ward book, so I sincerely wish you got what you want

Yes, comparing to books where the design philosophy of the studio was totally different (ie minimalist) and under different rulesets is a totally valid comparrison
The codexes you listed were all quite good in their day, and Witchhunters (though limited) can still perform quite well in the right hands. I'd quite happily see Phil Kelly write more books.

[Trixie]

Up to a point I tend to agree- I think some of the dislike of Ward might be a little misplaced.

He's sometimes referred to as "the Karen Traviss of 40K" on B&C.

The difference is, Ward might write too hammy things, but he does what he was told. Travissty decided to ruin canon and insult fans on the forums entirely on her own. That, and she can't even count to million, much less write complex game rules worth anything.

Sure, it would be nice if fluff in Codex: GK was written by Forgeworld writers (their fluff in IA X is among the best I've read, if still failing in military logic), but seeing how much these cost, I'd take Ward, pretty please.

Just compare their 'love' to Ultramarines/Mandalorians - Ward "loves" them so much every single Ultra IC (except Tellion) is the worst HQ/upgrade choice in the book, while Travissty makes Jedi Masters lick Mandalorian boots as they're so awesome.

[hamishspence]

Yes, but I've heard that with Coteaz as an HQ I can take Inquisitors + Retinues as Troops choices. Which I would probably do.

Henchmen- but not Inquisitors. Henchmen are an Elites (no slots taken up) that require an inquisitor to take a squad of them. Inquisitors are always HQ.

With Coteaz- they are Troops, and don't require an Inquisitor. But a second inquisitor after Coteaz still takes up an HQ choice.

So- you can never have more than 2 Inquisitors in your army. But you can have a whole lot of henchmen.

And Death Cult Assassins, Daemonhosts, and Arco-flagellants, are now Henchmen options.

That, and she can't even count to million, much less write complex game rules worth anything.

The 1.2 million clones figure predates Traviss- it was in both Shatterpoint and The Cestus Deception.

[lord_khaine]

Sigh. So much Ward hate. And so predictable, too. Remember the SW scare?

15 points troops with 3 attacks. Cheap Long Fangs. Most good SM toys. JAWS! of doom. Terminator troops. 2 meltaguns per unit.

And yet, the world hasn't ended, and SW ended up pretty balanced.

Ehh?

SW is widely consideret to be one of the most OP codexes, they are only really balanced with BA and IG.

[Wraith]

Ward, to me, is guilty of two things..... writting nice, more than adequate fluff that thrown all that grimdumb of the 2 previous editions out of the door, kept sane stuff in, and gave SM and GK real internal organization and logical division/structure..

All of a sudden, despite agreeing with what you were saying prior and after, this?

Codex Grey Knights is probably one of the most grimdark books out. It describes how billions of soldiers and civilians - who even so much as saw the Grey Knights in action at Armageddon - were hunted down and exterminated along with anyone in the near vicinity.
And how they murdered several dozen Sisters of Battle so as to use their innocent blood (and that's as specified in the text!) as a ward against some Daemons that were about to kill them.

And the rest!

[Lycan 01]

Henchmen- but not Inquisitors. Henchmen are an Elites (no slots taken up) that require an inquisitor to take a squad of them. Inquisitors are always HQ.

With Coteaz- they are Troops, and don't require an Inquisitor. But a second inquisitor after Coteaz still takes up an HQ choice.

So- you can never have more than 2 Inquisitors in your army. But you can have a whole lot of henchmen.

And Death Cult Assassins, Daemonhosts, and Arco-flagellants, are now Henchmen options.

But... but... You could take Inquisitors as Elites in the last Codex...


Awwww.

[hamishspence]

On the plus side, there's 3 Inquisitor special characters- Karamazov, Coteaz, and a new Ordo Xenos character.

And standard assassins are no longer 0-1, and don't require an inquisitor.

So a Grey Knight army could take 3 assassins.

[Lycan 01]

Ordo Xenos, you say? Well, that is encouraging, at least.


Still. I was looking forward to buying/converting/building Inquisitors and Henchmen. I mean, Henchmen will still work, but I really like Inquisitors...