When you play the Game of Thrones...

[hamlet]

Judgement sure, but she's always been pretty observant.

That doesn't mean that she understands what she's seeing.

[The Glyphstone]

Sandor Clegane stepped in actually, it was a duel of brothers.

.

That was? I'll have to watch it again, I thought that was Ned.

[hamlet]

That was? I'll have to watch it again, I thought that was Ned.

Nope, it was Sandor. And the reason Robert stepped in eventually is because it was rapidly turning from somebody stepping in to hold Gregor back into a full fight to the death. It was getting too far out of control and it was apparant that Gregor wasn't going to back down even, or especially, just because his brother stepped in.

[Chirios]

I liked this episode overall, but the fight scenes bothered me.

The problem with the swordfighting in this show is that they all overcommit to each attack and seem to forget that they're fighting with longswords instead of axes. It's all heavy chopping, they should stab and slice a few times.

And the characters that are supposed to be the best don't move as fluidly as they should. Jaime, when fighting Ned, should be taking advantage of angles. He should be blocking with the flat of his blade. He should be able to block and attack at the same time by moving in closer to his opponent.

What he shouldn't be doing is "Locking swords" with Ned and trying to push him back. That's just silly. A swordsman of Jaime's skill who ended up locking swords with an opponent would spin around the crossguard and cut towards the eye or neck.

Also, Jaime shouldn't be dueling with Ned. He should beat the crap out of Ned. He should do so easily, almost lazily. Jaime was one of the best in the seven kingdoms. He could stand next to Arthur freaking Dayne and not look out of place. Ned was an average swordsman at best.

This is nitpicking yes, but it's just jarring to me. I suppose this is what it feels like when physicists watch bad physics movies.

[thorgrim29]

Well series! Ned is a much more of a fighter then book! Ned, and even he is pretty heroic, he was the first in the throne room when the Jaime killed Aerys, he then went on to fight 3 of the best fighters of the realm including the absolute best and not die like a punk (well his friends did die), note that if I remember correctly he and his friends had been campaigning for a long time and were fresh from battle and from a long ride for that fight., while the 3 were resting in a tower. A few years later he was in the first wave through the breach at the siege of Pyke and survived. Plus he presumably fought in many other battles, yet he's still very much alive and not crippled (mentally of physically) at the end of it. He is one tough son of a bitch, no matter that his brother was supposed to be the warrior. He's just not an exceptional duellist.

Another good example of the difference between a warrior and a fighter is Jory. He's Ned's captain of the guard, presumably his best fighter or in the top 5, he fought side by side with Jaime at the siege of Pyke, and he's clearly a match for any 3 Lannister household men in a chaotic battle, yet when in one on one with a master he's instantly over matched.

For the battle scenes: After re-watching my impression is that at first Ned surprised Jamie by being actually good, but that he was starting to have fun with the fight when the guard poked Ned. So he may not have been fighting at 100%. Even then, they're actors learning a choreography, not professional re-ennactors, of course they don't actually fight like real people. But I think this and Rome are much better about it then most movies out there, not to mention series.

[Eldan]

This is nitpicking yes, but it's just jarring to me. I suppose this is what it feels like when physicists watch bad physics movies.

HEy, you could be a biologist watching almost any SciFi or horror movie ever, like me. It's hilarious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is nitpicking yes, but it's just jarring to me. I suppose this is what it feels like when physicists watch bad physics movies.

Or when doctors watch House. Or when cops watch CSI. If you are going to nitpick, it can be shortened to: every single one of those fights was too long. "Real Swordfights," whatever that means, last just a few seconds before one participant is dead, I'm told.

crippling migrains that he "controls" with liquor and laudnum (or the fantastic equivalency of it called "Milk of the Poppy")

Nothing fantastic about that. The Poppy flower is where we get opium from, and it has been the narcotic of choice of most of humanity for the longest time.

Grey Wolf

[Knaight]

Also, Jaime shouldn't be dueling with Ned. He should beat the crap out of Ned. He should do so easily, almost lazily. Jaime was one of the best in the seven kingdoms. He could stand next to Arthur freaking Dayne and not look out of place. Ned was an average swordsman at best.

For that matter, there are way too many long swords, its clear in the book that the arming sword and shield is the typical armament of the time. However, concerning your point above we do have reason to believe Ned is somewhat better than average. As the second son of a great noble house he received intensive combat training, and he distinguished himself at the battle of the Trident, including surviving a fight against Ser Arthur Dayne and two other kingsguard members, and quite possibly being the one to kill Ser Arthur Dayne. He isn't as good as Jaime, but there is no way he is only average.

On other notes, the change to Sandor and Gregor's fight was fundamentally unnecessary. That Gregor was a vicious brute routinely aiming for his brother's unarmored head was emphasized in the books, as was Sandor not trying to harm Gregor, and easily beating him back. From the TV show you don't get the sense of how much of a brute Gregor is, nor do you get the sense of how good Sandor is. After all, even Jaime considers him almost as good as he is, and he is recorded as having killed several armed assailants with no meaningful backup while completely drunk.

[Zmflavius]

Poor Tyrion - what was written on the wall of his "cell" behind him?

Gods help me, the blue is calling.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I half remember is being stated that

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Howlan Reed stabbed Ser Arthur Dayne in the back with a poisoned spear

but can't remember where.

[Demon 997]

I've been reading the non-reader speculation, and its sad and hilarious, through sometimes the amount that they don't think or see things in black and white drives me insane.

[Serpentine]

HEy, you could be a biologist watching almost any SciFi or horror movie ever, like me. It's hilarious.

I saw The Core just after learning about bird navigation.
*RAGE*

[SuperPanda]

As a non reader I'd have to say that we haven't been given enough information to have any idea who is suppose to be black (apart from the night's watch) and who is suppose to be white (walkers).

The show seems to have set certain characters up as antagonists and some as protagonists.

Jamie is an interesting and sympathetic character, but the impact of his actions at the end of the first episode firmly place him in the An camp of tagonists.

Ned is a bit bull headed but his strict honor code and the fact that he is the stranger in king's landing (not to mention a victim of Jamie's crime) sets him firmly in the pro camp of the tagonists.

Richard... The more I see of him the more I expect to see him face down in the dirt in a small number of episodes. I simply don't know who will (get to) do it.

Tyrion: His dialog has been awesome. He is obviously a cunning little thing who looks out for himself first and foremost. There seemed to be some affection between him and Jamie but he also seems to have a soft spot for the weak and down trodden (who Jamie seems to like trodding on). Can't predict where he'll go, only where I want him to go (on the protagonist shelf).

Little finger seems so obviously up to something that I'll actually be surprised if he is betraying the starks. I wouldn't be surprised if he was maneuvering to try to make himself (or even Ned) King.

I haven't seen enough of anyone else to get a clear idea of who they are or where they stand. The pregnant girl's role has been getting bossed around by her brother, and then by her husband, and now has finally stopped letting her self get pushed around. Jorah could be playing both sides or he could be out for himself only, I only know that I liked him and was sympathetic to the person his information put in harms way.

The Hound was introduced as yet another thug and seems to be turning out to be important, this is a nice change up.

Ned's bodyguard seemed to be set up to be important, but obviously wasn't. This was an interesting change.

So apart form taking the black or walking the white... I'm not sure what (if anything) is black and white in this show (as a non-reader).

That said, the medium of video has been used to push some characters who are interesting and sympathetic firmly in the antagonist side of things.

[Seerow]

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Richard... The more I see of him the more I expect to see him face down in the dirt in a small number of episodes. I simply don't know who will (get to) do it.

Who? Do you mean Robert?

So apart form taking the black or walking the white... I'm not sure what (if anything) is black and white in this show (as a non-reader).

This is really pretty much intended I'm thinking. In the book, there's a lot of shades of grey for all of the characters. They all make mistakes. Some have worse intentions than others but there are very few people whom you can label as wholly good or wholly bad. In fact, offhand I can think of exactly 3, and one of those people expect 2 of them to get greyed up some in book 5.

Some of the characters are showing their sympathetic sides a bit earlier, but my interpretation of this is so it doesn't seem like such a sudden shift later on. (For example, Jaime is pretty much pure antagonist throughout the first book, but later on we get to see things through his POV, and see more about him and he become sympathetic. It's hard to relay this through the television medium, since they don't have the POV structure, so they seem to have gone the route of making him sympathetic to some degree earlier in the series)

[Velaryon]

Grey Wolf, would you mind putting spoilers on this post:

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As far as I know, no, which is why it was abandoned for duels. Martin did a very painful demonstration of uselessness of armor in the Bronn/Knight of the Vale duel in the books. A narrow sword easily finds his way into armor, and a guy in armor simply doesn't have the ability to fight someone that can outrun him with a brisk walk.

Now, it is true that the introduction of firearms also helped speed the deprecation of armor, but long before Spain introduced combined weapons formation (the Tercios), armor had been on the way out because it was simply too unwieldy. In a battlefield, you put up with it because it protects from the chaos, but in a duel, the lack of mobility will kill you.

Grey Wolf

The scene of which you speak is likely going to be in one of the next episodes, and while you're vague enough that it might not really spoil anything, it still cuts pretty close.

Sandor and Syrio, maybe. Greatjon I don't remember ever being described with particular swordfighting ability, or Garlan for that matter. Maybe my memory's just rusty though.

For what it's worth:

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Lord Frey specifically tasks one of his sons with drinking the Greatjon under the table at the Red Wedding, so that he cannot fight. As far as I remember (though it's been a few years since I read the books), nobody else among the Stark party is specifically called out as someone who needs to be incapacitated. That strongly points to Greatjon Umber as a pretty feared warrior. As a duelist he may not be among the best, but on the battlefield he seems to be quite something if I remember.

So apart form taking the black or walking the white... I'm not sure what (if anything) is black and white in this show (as a non-reader).

Although it's easy to miss, the Kingsguard wear white cloaks, and joining their ranks is known as "taking the white." Does that count?


Overall, I liked this episode despite its differences from the book. Ned's skills with a blade are definitely played up more in the show, although I really don't remember much said about it one way or the other in the book.

Renly/Loras is WAY more blatant than it ever was in the books (in fact I and others I know didn't catch it at all on the first read-through). Also, am I crazy or did Loras shave only one of Renly's armpits?

The Littlefinger/Varys duel of words was pretty awesome, although it sheds a much greater light on what Varys might be up to than I remember in the book. On the other hand, in the novel pretty much everyone is going around talking about not being able to trust the Spider, and this serves as a good way to get the same effect in abbreviated form.

A bit surprised we saw nothing of Daenerys this time, although I suppose there's not a lot going on with her that can't wait til next time. It didn't even occur to me until I was reading the comments here that we didn't see Jon up at the Wall this episode either.

Also, I wants more direwolf scenes!

[hamlet]

Nothing fantastic about that. The Poppy flower is where we get opium from, and it has been the narcotic of choice of most of humanity for the longest time.

Grey Wolf

I know. I was referring to the nomenclature, not the drug itself. It is, in the show, called "milk of the poppy" rather than "laudnum" but is implied to be the same thing given the few hints about it we've gotten.

As a non reader I'd have to say that we haven't been given enough information to have any idea who is suppose to be black (apart from the night's watch) and who is suppose to be white (walkers).

I'm not quite sure what is supposed to be meant here. It looks, almost, as if you're saying that the Night's Watch is bad (aka, "black hats") and the walkers are good (aka, "white hats"). I'm pretty sure at this point it's entirely opposite.

[SuperPanda]

My dear prince of Denmark, I was actually trying to use the only examples we've been given of solid, no questions good: (Night's Watch, John Snow) and solid, no questions evil (white Walkers) to refute the insinuation that non readers viewed and interpreted the show in black and white. Since the Night's watch "takes the black" and the Walkers are "white" walkers I took advantage of the opportunity to arbitrarily reverse the colors from where they should be, hoping that the irony there would further my point.

Alas, it seems not to have worked.

[Knaight]

My dear prince of Denmark, I was actually trying to use the only examples we've been given of solid, no questions good: (Night's Watch, John Snow) and solid, no questions evil (white Walkers) to refute the insinuation that non readers viewed and interpreted the show in black and white. Since the Night's watch "takes the black" and the Walkers are "white" walkers I took advantage of the opportunity to arbitrarily reverse the colors from where they should be, hoping that the irony there would further my point.

Even these are more complex than that. The Night's Watch is run by flawed people, many of whom have flaws that harm people. Consider the cruelty of Ser Allister Thorn for instance, not to mention the whole Janos Slynt case. As far as the white walkers go* we don't really know that much about them. The others might be smart enough to constitute a very evil force, they might be fairly animalistic and thus no more evil and no less dangerous than some sort of massive plague.

*Hereafter referred to as Others, as is proper for the book.

[hamlet]

My dear prince of Denmark, I was actually trying to use the only examples we've been given of solid, no questions good: (Night's Watch, John Snow) and solid, no questions evil (white Walkers) to refute the insinuation that non readers viewed and interpreted the show in black and white. Since the Night's watch "takes the black" and the Walkers are "white" walkers I took advantage of the opportunity to arbitrarily reverse the colors from where they should be, hoping that the irony there would further my point.

Alas, it seems not to have worked.

I misunderstood your words, then.

As is pointed out, though, those things you think are pretty clear at the moment are hardly that. There's one thing this series is very good at; complicating things. No such thing as "wholly good or wholly bad." Though there are a few that really give you a run for your money.

[Serpentine]

In that case, it just drives his point home even harder.

[The Glyphstone]

I saw The Core just after learning about bird navigation.
*RAGE*

I'm pretty sure that could be rewritten as

"I saw The Core just after learning about [Absolutely anything scientific in existence].
*RAGE*

[Cristo Meyers]

Also, am I crazy or did Loras shave only one of Renly's armpits?

Good to see I'm not the only one that caught that.

[valadil]

Good to see I'm not the only one that caught that.

Renly probably noticed too, but wasn't about to complain when Loras got distracted.

[Serpentine]

I'm pretty sure that could be rewritten as

"I saw The Core just after learning about [Absolutely anything scientific in existence].
*RAGE*

Well yes, but it was specifically after learning about that and it was so very extra dumb.

[The Glyphstone]

Well yes, but it was specifically after learning about that and it was so very extra dumb.

In the movie's very minor defense, it at least didn't try to hide the fact that it was ridiculous. Case in point: Unobtanium.

[Eldan]

What's this about bird flight? I haven't seen the core, only read a few geologists and physicists ranting about it.

[hamlet]

I've been reading the non-reader speculation, and its sad and hilarious, through sometimes the amount that they don't think or see things in black and white drives me insane.

Interesting. A friend of mine has come to the conclusion, based on only having seen the show and only dimly aware that there are, in fact, books to be read, that Jon Snow is gay.

I have to admit that I was rather impolite when I laughed in his face over the issue.

[Seerow]

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Interesting. A friend of mine has come to the conclusion, based on only having seen the show and only dimly aware that there are, in fact, books to be read, that Jon Snow is gay.

I have to admit that I was rather impolite when I laughed in his face over the issue.

To be fair, our only indication of his sexuality in the show thus far is he got naked with a girl, then decided not to do it for a retarded reason (there are contraceptives in ASOIAF as indicated in the books), then going voluntarily to a place where only men are allowed and are forbidden from ever having children.

[BRC]

Concerning Ned's skill with a sword, I always got the impression that Ned was actually quite the accomplished swordsman, it's just that Jaimie was one of the best in Westeros. Ned had to be a ruler and a general, Jamie was nothing but a knight.
With that in mind, I thought the show did a fine job of showing their respective levels of skill. If it helps, remember that Jamie wants to take Ned alive, while Ned probably wouldn't lose any sleep if Jamie died, so Ned is going all out while Jamie is trying to avoid killing the king's best friend (Tricky, considering that swordfights are not really known for their non-lethality)

[Flickerdart]

Well, it gets a lot more conclusive later on. Hehe.