When you play the Game of Thrones...

[DomaDoma]

Can't tell you how much I despise dark lords on dark thrones and artifacts of doom and all that baloney.

Yeah, I'll have to agree with you on dark lords. You can't really make a compelling villain if they're only characterized in a mythological kind of way. Over a dark lord, I'll gladly choose an evil overlord who fails half the list, as long as the evil overlord has a nice, original backstory. ASoIAF characters, in that sense, are fantastic.

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(I say "characters" instead of "villains" because there are only two or three major players who stay lighter than 50% grey and live.)

I think you can tell by my previous post just how invested I am in the characters, whatever their evil quotient.

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Excepting everyone from the Iron Islands and Dorne. God, how they annoy me. If this were a book about the Five Kingdoms, it'd be none the worse for it - Euron excepted. Probably.

Hey, I hope most of those things too. I'm just not so beholden to them that my enjoyment of the series is tied up in whether or not there's a "happy ending."

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Well, if there's not a somewhat happy ending, what's the point? At least 1984 had "don't ever, ever let tyrants get into power in the first place." With ASoIaF, it'd either be "war is hell" or "no matter what course of action you take, you're pretty much screwed." Neither of them is really worth seven books.

Luckily, I've got a very liberal definition of what constitutes a "somewhat happy ending."

[The Big Dice]

Actually, despite the fact that I love the genre, I have to say I'm beginning to loathe most other Fantasy simply because . . . I don't know . . . it bothers the hell out of me how naieve and repetetive it is. Can't tell you how much I despise dark lords on dark thrones and artifacts of doom and all that baloney.

Go and read Stephen R Donaldson's fantasy work. Sure, there's a dark lord who wants to destroy the earth and there is a magic ring and a hero reborn. But the dark lord holds the universe in contempt and just wants out. The hero reborn doesn't believe the world is real. As far as he's concerned it's all a dream while he's unconscious after being hit by a car. And the magic ring? Nobody knows if it's going to save or destroy the world.

David Gemmel is another one to check out. His stuff is so gritty it gets your hands grimy just by handling the books. James Barclay's Raven series is also well worth looking at if you want something a bit different from your typical sanitised fantasy trilogy fare.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Reading 'A Storm of Swords' for the first time, because I am Slowpoke

(Massive Spoiler, or at least it would've been to me a couple minutes ago )

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ROBB!?!?!?!

Killing Eddard, I understood. It was the sort of thing that shaped Robb into the king he was. Is. Should be. I don't even know, I feel so depressed now

One of the few things keeping my going through this series was my love of Robb's arc and the way that he conducts himself throughout. Now there's no character left that I truly care for. Jon, in a way, but the Nights Watch and Wildlings could be entirely removed from the books and I wouldn't care.

I guess it's just my knee-jerk reaction to the killing of my favourite character, but I'm legitimately unsure as to how I'll make it through the rest of this series now.

I can't believe they killed my king

That one didn't effect me much at all.

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We see so little of Rob. He was cool when he became King but after a while he just becomes that person his mother emotes at.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

David Gemmel is another one to check out. His stuff is so gritty it gets your hands grimy just by handling the books.

I recommend Gemmel too, but he has a big problem: he is best described as a one trick pony. I've read over a dozen of his books, and yes, they are all entertaining and well written and good fantasy, but when you look back, it is always the same story, with the same broad characters/archetypes, facing the same problems and coming up with the same solutions. I don't have a problem with that - I'll happily read the same book over and over - but several of my friends have complained that, read one, you've pretty much read all of his books.

Grey Wolf

[Dienekes]

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Well, if there's not a somewhat happy ending, what's the point? At least 1984 had "don't ever, ever let tyrants get into power in the first place." With ASoIaF, it'd either be "war is hell" or "no matter what course of action you take, you're pretty much screwed." Neither of them is really worth seven books.

Luckily, I've got a very liberal definition of what constitutes a "somewhat happy ending."

Ehh, I've always felt a good story does not have to have a point or a moral or anything. Sometimes you just read it to enjoy the ride. I know I wouldn't like the books better if they had added some moral to the end of it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ehh, I've always felt a good story does not have to have a point or a moral or anything. Sometimes you just read it to enjoy the ride. I know I wouldn't like the books better if they had added some moral to the end of it.

But there is a moral: if you play the game of thrones, you will be paving the path with the deaths of thousands, and war does not care one whit what your moral compass points towards.

Sometimes, I wish I could spray paint that moral in several current-day countries that should know better.

Grey Wolf

[valadil]

Also, did we just have an entire episode without sex scenes?

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Nudity, but no sex. There were Dothraki titties and Theon's whore flashed him.

[TheSummoner]

As much as I enjoyed Viserys finally getting his crown, one thing bugs me...

According to Dr. Wikipedia, the melting point of Gold is 1064.18 °C. The jewelry almost certainly wasn't pure gold, but it is a good base line. Dr. Wikipedia also tells me that a wood fire burns at a maximum of about 1027 °C.

Granted, the difference is much smaller than I would've thought before looking up the numbers, but still... Wouldn't it take more than a wood fire to melt the gold?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As much as I enjoyed Viserys finally getting his crown, one thing bugs me...

According to Dr. Wikipedia, the melting point of Gold is 1064.18 °C. The jewelry almost certainly wasn't pure gold, but it is a good base line. Dr. Wikipedia also tells me that a wood fire burns at a maximum of about 1027 °C.

Granted, the difference is much smaller than I would've thought before looking up the numbers, but still... Wouldn't it take more than a wood fire to melt the gold?

I wasn't looking that close, but didn't Daenery's fire burn with a mixture of coal and wood? Maybe so was the feast fire?

Edit: after all, they have neither trees nor coal nearby. Canonically, don't they burn horse feces?

GW

[Demon 997]

As much as I enjoyed Viserys finally getting his crown, one thing bugs me...

According to Dr. Wikipedia, the melting point of Gold is 1064.18 °C. The jewelry almost certainly wasn't pure gold, but it is a good base line. Dr. Wikipedia also tells me that a wood fire burns at a maximum of about 1027 °C.

Granted, the difference is much smaller than I would've thought before looking up the numbers, but still... Wouldn't it take more than a wood fire to melt the gold?

Related question, how long would it take for that much gold to melt? Because I could totally see them all standing there awkwardly for a good 20 minutes.

[Lord Raziere]

*hand wave*

ancient Dothraki super-fire secret/subtle plot magic

as for the books.....

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well, I'm just going along for the ride, I'm not trying to expect any certain thing from A Song of Ice and Fire, because I can't, not expecting a happy or sad ending, just going along for the ride and seeing it where it goes, cause if I could see it was going it'd be boring for me, so I try not to expect anything from this series, it would ruin things for me.

[Zmflavius]

As much as I enjoyed Viserys finally getting his crown, one thing bugs me...

According to Dr. Wikipedia, the melting point of Gold is 1064.18 °C. The jewelry almost certainly wasn't pure gold, but it is a good base line. Dr. Wikipedia also tells me that a wood fire burns at a maximum of about 1027 °C.

Granted, the difference is much smaller than I would've thought before looking up the numbers, but still... Wouldn't it take more than a wood fire to melt the gold?

You know, not a couple months past, I did read a topic about this very subject...

And i think the conclusion arrived at was that the gold didn't need to be fully liquefied, and that solid-liquid slush at say, 750 °C would work just as well for cooking a head.

[thorgrim29]

It probably was a gold/"something else that melts easy" (tin???) alloy

[TheSummoner]

You know, not a couple months past, I did read a topic about this very subject...

And i think the conclusion arrived at was that the gold didn't need to be fully liquefied, and that solid-liquid slush at say, 750 °C would work just as well for cooking a head.

I'm no chemist, but wouldn't it have to reach the melting point to even become slush? Wouldn't it be completly solid until it hit the melting point and then begin melting, first into gold slush and with time into liquid gold?

Would solve the time issue if partially melted gold slush was good enough, but not the heat issue.

[Rowanomicon]

Also, did we just have an entire episode without sex scenes?

I think so. At the end my thought was "less sex and more action this time."

I thought Tyrion's trial by combat was the best choreographed fight so far, except maybe the fight between The Hound and The Mountain.

Did anyone catch what Viserys said just before he left to go steal the dragon eggs? I'm sure it's not vitally important, but I watched it a few times and couldn't make it out.

Census information: I haven't read the books, but I am thoroughly enjoying the show so far.

[The Glyphstone]

Viserys being crowned = so much awesome.

Tyrion's trial = more awesome.

I'm confused, though - are spoilers for Episode 7 already being tossed around? Cause there are things being mentioned in the boxes that were not in this episode.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah, seems it was leaked or they released 2, don't know.

[Artemis97]

They released episode 7 online after the show aired last night.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah. Didn't know that.

[thorgrim29]

And it's a big one...

[Seerow]

Ah. Didn't know that.

Yeah, if you have HBO there's a 90% chance you have HBO Go (comcast subscribers have a different site but is basically the same thing). I know Time Warner does not (lots of complaints from their subscribers), but that's the only one I know specifically does not. To see episode 7 all you have to do is log into HBO Go and there it is. They premiered it at 10pm last night.

[Demon 997]

Does this mean no episode next week?

Also, the the Eyrie utterly not how I pictured it. I was picturing a tiny castle of slender towers perched on a mountain top, with the three gates leading up the ridge to it. Instead we get a weird round thing. Are other people having this?

[Flickerdart]

I was expecting the doors leading "outside" as, you know, doors. Huge gates in the side of the wall. Not a well.

[Seerow]

Does this mean no episode next week?

Episode 7 will air as normal next week on TV. For those who watched online though, nope, no new episode. So they left us with a pretty big 2 week cliffhanger.

[Xondoure]

Does this mean no episode next week?

Also, the the Eyrie utterly not how I pictured it. I was picturing a tiny castle of slender towers perched on a mountain top, with the three gates leading up the ridge to it. Instead we get a weird round thing. Are other people having this?

Yeah very dissappointed with the eyrie. I recall them climbing a cliff face just to reach it, the cells should be smaller and I recall the moon door being well, a door.

[SuperPanda]

More than a few, Huh, did not see that coming, moments between episodes 6 and 7.

Also recognized some actors from the film adaptations of Pratchett's works. Arch-chancellor Weatherwax (The Colour of Magic) is the lord commander of the Night's Watch and Havelock Vetenari (Going Postal) is lord Lanister. I really hope we'll be seeing much more of Lord Lanister, I like that actor.

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Tyrion's trial by combat: It was definately and awesome fight and there was awesome unspoken dialogue between Tyrion and Cat. Actually, I'm sort of miffed that nothing came from all that development and tension between Cat and Tyrion. Thing really looked set up to forge something of an alliance there. It built up beautifully until Tyrion's reactions in the trial by combat and then reverted back to where it was when it started.

Tyrion had one line which almost sounded like he was confessing to to hiring the assasin in the first place, and since I still don't know who did (and likely won't find out anytime soon) is frustrating. Having seen his softer side I was hoping he wouldn't be connected to that. I'm still holding out hope for him to chew out Cerssi and/or Jamie for it later on.

Robert's Fate. Actually, Robert's reaction to the Stark and Lanister fued was exactly the sort of Kingly behavior I had been needing to see from him to want to keep him around for a while. The Robert of the earlier episodes is a drunk fool who while he seems like a good enough guy, is very obviously a very bad King and intent on making things worse wherever he can. His scene with Cerssi in 5 and then his actions in 6 made me change my mind and I was ready to say I was getting to like the big guy. I still expected someone to kill him.

Jorah's plot: I have to say, well played sir, well played indeed. I had been hoping it turned out this way because I like him and I prefer seeing the character's I like to be loyal at least within their own circles.

Spider: Is becoming less impressive as the story goes on, hopefully this will change.

Little Fingers turn: The scene in the brothel where he monologues out his plan was very well acted, and good in that there were no hero's around, but still seemed rather typically villain. I mean, I had noticed that he had a goatee and I expected him to turn on Stark sooner than later already, I also expected it when Stark ignored his advice (which was good advice all the same). I was a bit confused as to who was betraying whom until I heard him speak, but I wasn't surprised at the scene too much.

Jamie and Dad: Awesome scene. There is the sympathetic Jaime I'd like to see more of and a new ruthlessly calculating lord played by an actor I love to see play ruthlessly calculating lords.

Dothraki scenes: Well done. Could have done without having guy's bouncing member near the center of the screen as he runs behind the horses at the end though. I guess with all the naked women we've seen its only fair that the other side gets something to watch too though.

Stark: Now I love the character, in contrast the others around him Ned makes for such a refreshing rock for the audience to cling to. His altering of the King's words was small enough to be a clever power grab while not being strictly dishonorable though I'm not sure why he thought anyone but him would care. The Lanisters obviously had no respect for the laws, Cersii admitted to passing her brother's children as Roberts and so he knew that she didn't care about the King's laws or succession or any of that. Littlefinger's loyalty had been to Cat, not to Ned. Ned, in fact, had no friends in King's Landing. I think he might well have made for a good regent, but he had no way to hold the power once he got it (if he got it at all).

[hamlet]

There's plenty of fantasy without dark lords. Try some Brandon Sanderson, or Robin Hobb, maybe?

And, I'm probably very jaded, but I don't see the incredible grimdarkness everyone seems to see in this series. Sure, there's some of it. There's dark stuff, violence and sadism. But I don't think it's the overwhelming amounts of it that everyone else claims there are. I find it quite moderate, really. And when it happens, it actually makes sense, most of the time.

Also, did we just have an entire episode without sex scenes?

I don't like Hobb. Well, that's not fair. Actually . . . I hate Hobb's work. It rubs me in a very wrong way. Can't tolerate it.

Never read Sanderson, can't comment.

And yes, I think the "grimdarkness" of Martin's books are vastly overstated. Compared to others, sure, it's darker, edgier, and harsher, but overall, it's really not that bad.

As for the sex. That's largely a complication of HBO. Yeah, there was lots of such in the books, but when you distill things into a television show on HBO, sex just kind of . . . floats to the top if you catch my meaning. It's one of the things you can be 100% sure will make the transition to the screen when HBO does something like this.

Personally, I don't overly mind it. I just with they'd pick some other style for it. Seems people in Westeros are just flat out unimaginitive.

[hamlet]

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Well, if there's not a somewhat happy ending, what's the point? At least 1984 had "don't ever, ever let tyrants get into power in the first place." With ASoIaF, it'd either be "war is hell" or "no matter what course of action you take, you're pretty much screwed." Neither of them is really worth seven books.

Luckily, I've got a very liberal definition of what constitutes a "somewhat happy ending."

Yer talking to a guy who makes cynics depressed. I've spent a long time looking for stories that don't contort themselves halfway to Sunday to ensure a happy ending. Hell, just once, I'd love to see a book that ends with the heroes showing up to fight the dark lord, have him explain his plan and reasons, and then have the heroes agree with him, apologize, and go back home!

[Knaight]

Yeah very dissappointed with the eyrie. I recall them climbing a cliff face just to reach it, the cells should be smaller and I recall the moon door being well, a door.

That the position of the Eyrie was so easy to get to, and that it didn't deserve a nickname like the Eyrie was annoying. That the cells were so massive, and not slanted enough was also annoying. However, the change to the moon door fundamentally worked, and given the change in mediums probably worked better than a mere door.

[hamlet]

Sorry for tripple posting myself. I'm catching up after several posts over night.

[QUOTE=SuperPanda;11056460]More than a few, Huh, did not see that coming, moments between episodes 6 and 7.

[\quote]

Haven't seen episode 7 yet, but I'm pretty sure I know what happens in it, for the most part. You'll correct me if I get things wrong, and hopefully I won't ruin a surprise or two for you.

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Tyrion's trial by combat: It was definately and awesome fight and there was awesome unspoken dialogue between Tyrion and Cat. Actually, I'm sort of miffed that nothing came from all that development and tension between Cat and Tyrion. Thing really looked set up to forge something of an alliance there. It built up beautifully until Tyrion's reactions in the trial by combat and then reverted back to where it was when it started.

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That's one of the things that's kind of great about the stories, especially the novels. Some of those "classic" fantasy elements get dangled in front of you, and then either subverted, twisted around, or entirely denied in ways that surprise us. We, as readers, really are conditioned originally to expect certain things, and Martin plays on those expectations.

Yes, we sort of saw a little blossoming, begrudging respect from Cat to Tyrion. Maybe. But keep in mind that she's still convinced that Tyrion killed her son, or hired somebody to do it, and so she still hates him. Still convinced that the man is responsible for a lot of what will happen.

She's also a little bit of an idiot at times, especially when it comes to her family. Compare to Cersei.

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Tyrion had one line which almost sounded like he was confessing to to hiring the assasin in the first place, and since I still don't know who did (and likely won't find out anytime soon) is frustrating. Having seen his softer side I was hoping he wouldn't be connected to that. I'm still holding out hope for him to chew out Cerssi and/or Jamie for it later on.

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Third season or book. If you're quick. Then you'll find out.

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Robert's Fate. Actually, Robert's reaction to the Stark and Lanister fued was exactly the sort of Kingly behavior I had been needing to see from him to want to keep him around for a while. The Robert of the earlier episodes is a drunk fool who while he seems like a good enough guy, is very obviously a very bad King and intent on making things worse wherever he can. His scene with Cerssi in 5 and then his actions in 6 made me change my mind and I was ready to say I was getting to like the big guy. I still expected someone to kill him.

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Yeah.

The thing to remember about Robert is that, in his youth (a thing not well established in the show but quite prominent in the text) was a tremendously handsome, charismatic, and able man. He was a huge warrior with almost monstrous strength who went into battle swinging around the equivalent of a 20 pound sledge hammer. Ned himself comments that he could barely lift the thing while Robert could wield it in battle for days on end. He was a true lady's man, far more than just "hey, he's a king, how many women would turn down even a fat king?". His exploits are notorious throughout the kingdoms before he turned into what he is now.

The real problem is that, while he was a superb warrior, and excellent rallying point for the rebellion, and a paragon of a man . . . he's a horrible king. He just doesn't have "kinging" in his blood, in his mind, in his persona. It's just an epic fail for him, for a whole host of reasons. He was placed there, as the texts originally explained, because at some point in his ancestry, a Targaryen married into the Baratheon line, which means he's something like an eigth Targaryen, which gave him some level of claim to the throne while neither Stark nor Arryn had such a claim and it was believed that that claim would make him more palatable to those lords who sat on the fence and provide some sense of continuity. It didn't overtly work.

Another major problem is that Robert's still in mourning for Lyanna. He truly loved her, or at least loved the idea of being in love with her. When she died, he went a little mad. Or a lot, depending on your perception of such things. It's one of the primary reasons for the antagonism between Cersei and Robert, more than anything else. It's that first wound that festered so horribly between them.

The supreme irony of it is, though, that despite the fact that Arys II Targaryen (the "Mad King") was, indeed, quite insane, his councilors were able to effectivly govern the realm in his mental absence and give the kingdom decades of peace and financial prosperity. Heaped on top of that was the fact that Rheagar (his son and heir, Dany and Viserys' older brother, not mentioned at all in the show except in a blink and you'll miss it in passing moment) was implied to have been a thousand times the king that his father was. Baelor Breakspear reborn as it were (sorry, that's another name you won't know, but effectively The Black Prince restyled). If the rebelion had, and it's even brought up once or twice in text, instead of focusing on wiping out the Targaryens, focused on moving Arys off the throne and getting Rheagar onto it . . . well . . . it's almost unimaginable what might have happened instead. That's another one of those Swords of Damocles hanging over Robert, and he's supremely aware of them.

Actually, in text, there are a huge number of "might have beens" that are brought up that are astonishing if you take the time to sit back and ponder them. One of the themes of the novels is what I refer to as the "pebble theory." That dropping a pebble onto the mountain slope can start an avalanch.

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Jorah's plot: I have to say, well played sir, well played indeed. I had been hoping it turned out this way because I like him and I prefer seeing the character's I like to be loyal at least within their own circles.

Indeed. Jorah is one of my favorite characters in some ways.

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Spider: Is becoming less impressive as the story goes on, hopefully this will change.

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Well, there's a few things here.

First, the show is cutting out a few of the quieter, subtler things from the novels that really displayed how Varys was an important player. He was never a loud or prominent figure. Just quite and subtle as a spider in the background.

Second, and more importantly, Varys never really comes into his own until next book/season. Then, you'll realize just how important he can be if he choses to throw his weight around.

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Little Fingers turn: The scene in the brothel where he monologues out his plan was very well acted, and good in that there were no hero's around, but still seemed rather typically villain. I mean, I had noticed that he had a goatee and I expected him to turn on Stark sooner than later already, I also expected it when Stark ignored his advice (which was good advice all the same). I was a bit confused as to who was betraying whom until I heard him speak, but I wasn't surprised at the scene too much.

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Dude, he's just getting warmed up. Stay far, far away from TVTropes' Song of Ice and Fire entries if you want to avoid spoilers.

And, I'll just add this: while this scene might have been a surprise (and it was) to us, it's really not that big compared to what will happen over the next couple episodes.

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Jamie and Dad: Awesome scene. There is the sympathetic Jaime I'd like to see more of and a new ruthlessly calculating lord played by an actor I love to see play ruthlessly calculating lords.

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Dude, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Just a bit of background that won't spoil anything. Lord Lannister, Tywin Lannister, was the Hand of the King to Arys II "The Mad King" some years before the rebellion and was eerily capable at it. He was really the one that made the realm prosper prior to the deposition of Arys. The problems arose when it was noted by the king that the crowds cheered twice as loud for Tywin as they did for Arys, and oftener than not, mistook Tywin for being the king himself (note a minor parallel to when Stark was mistaken for a king while sitting the throne). Needless to say, this rubbed Arys the wrong way, who then set about doing what he could to tick off Tywin. Tywin then became notorious as one of the very very few Hands who walked out of that office on his own feet and under his own power. His replacements, a number of petty, mean, and venal men, were so far less than him and ended so poorly that the position has become notorious and rumored to be cursed.

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Stark: Now I love the character, in contrast the others around him Ned makes for such a refreshing rock for the audience to cling to. His altering of the King's words was small enough to be a clever power grab while not being strictly dishonorable though I'm not sure why he thought anyone but him would care. The Lanisters obviously had no respect for the laws, Cersii admitted to passing her brother's children as Roberts and so he knew that she didn't care about the King's laws or succession or any of that. Littlefinger's loyalty had been to Cat, not to Ned. Ned, in fact, had no friends in King's Landing. I think he might well have made for a good regent, but he had no way to hold the power once he got it (if he got it at all).

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You are quite perceptive, considering you've only seen the show.

Suffice to say, in this first season, Ned is really what people latch onto as a hero. As things progress, however, we get to see some of the tarnish on his sparkling image and realize some of the things that drove him to be what he is.