When you play the Game of Thrones...

[hamlet]

That the position of the Eyrie was so easy to get to, and that it didn't deserve a nickname like the Eyrie was annoying. That the cells were so massive, and not slanted enough was also annoying. However, the change to the moon door fundamentally worked, and given the change in mediums probably worked better than a mere door.

Agreed in all respects.

I much prefer the version of the Eyrie as presented in the 2011 calendar.

[SuperPanda]

Re: Hamlet. You haven't ruined anything for me and your background information actually cleared things up a bit for me by filling out somethings I had already expected.

Sort of miffed at the Cat - Tyrion thing mostly because of the hero portrayal the Starks are getting. I admit the story is better this way, but I was rooting for the emergence of an unhappy alliance to keep the family tensions confusing.

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Ned and the Queen don't like eachother. Ned and Jamie don't like each other. Their kids do seem to like each other though, which sets up a Romeo and Julliet sort of thing going. The youngest daughter dislikes the prince/king Joffery which sets her as a sort of Tybalt figure. Having Cat and Tyrion come to a grudging understanding while Ned and Cat and Jamie and Tyrion have something else going on would probably have been needlessly complicated, but I felt the characters were developed enough to handle it.

I loved hearing that the character of Tyren (The Patrician) sounds about as Vetenari like as anyone in the seven kingdoms is likely to be.

The info on Robert:

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I gathered some, but not all, of that from the show. There was a little talk about how good warriors don't make good kings. That and I have read Beowulf and am very familiar with those themes already. The fact that I absolutely love Vetenari as a character probably speaks to something about how I like to see the leader figures in my fiction. I prefer them to be capable to being kind. I prefer them to be someone I could trust to hold my wallet more than someone who is fun to have a drink with.

Robert always struck me as a decent soul who had gotten more leverage than his weight could pull and had sort of lost purpose in life and then started taking it out on the people around him.

Love these chats, its fun to share feedback from the point of view of someone coming to love the content through the visual medium to people who love it from the textual medium.

As for speculation for further episodes... this cliffhanger left things where I could pretty honestly believe it was the end of the season and they were going to take a month (or more) break.

This spoiler is one not to read if you haven't seen episode 7 yet (even book people who know these things happen but might not know that they all happened at the end of this episode:)

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Last warning

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I mean... Cersei and Joffery on the throne together, Jamie with soldiers off to capture either the Eyrie or Winterfell, Ned Stark captive, Dothraki invasion on the way, Snow's team finding corpses that likely finally make something of the "White Walkers" that have been whispered about so far, Tyrion on the loose headed back to Kings Landing, Sir Greggor receiving a letter that he's stripped of his rank by Ned Stark when Greggor is an ally of the Lanisters... In all honesty, I'll be impressed if any Starks survive the next episode at all. I can't really see any reason why they should. They have no power compared to the other players, have made very powerful enemies, are all in bad positions, are separated from each other. I could very easily see Ned get strung up, his daughters driven out of town (Jofffery's alloud to live if he wants it, killed if not; the younger one running off with her dance teacher to learn how to avenge her parents - hello, my name has not been repeated enough for viewers to remember. You killed my father, prepare to die.).

[hamlet]

SuperPanda:

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Ok, lots to go through, but I'm not going to pull each out individually.

There's a reason why the Starks look, at first blush, to be a "hero" type of group. It's because for the first book, much, if not most, of the story is told from their perspective, even if it's coming from the eyes of Tyrion. We tend to sympathize with them tremendously because we get the universe filtered through their perspectives. We understand what makes them tick and what their goals are, and in comparing them to the perceived goals (remember who's eyes we're looking through) of folks like the Lannisters, who seem sinister from the perspectives of people like Ned, Arya, and Catlyn, the Stark goals of ensuring family safety and continued prosperity seem entirely reasonable.

Sorta spoilerish:

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This changes as you move into new books/seasons. You pick up more points of view where you learn more about the inner thoughts of certain people who, right now, seem almost cartoonishly villainous. Little tidbits of history get uncovered one nugget at a time and you can start to piece together some of the "truth" about what's actually going on and you learn some things that might change your mind about the Starks, Lannisters, and all the other players.

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No, really . .

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You even learn that there are players in the wings that you've never even heard of, but whose fingerprints are unmistakable once you learn about them

Ned doesn't particularly care for the queen, probably, mostly because of what he learns about her and how she behaves towards him and his. She's a witch with a capital "B" for most of the time. She doesn't like Ned because, frankly, Robert loved Ned more than he loved Cersei. And because of what Ned knew and how he pushed to find out. And, at least a little, because she recognizes that Ned is not somebody who would have let it go and that sort of thing threatened her deeply. It's complicated, and there are actually more reasons that I'm not relating.

Your predictions are . . . interesting. Not wholly off base, but you're missing key aspects of information that simply have not been related in series yet. Some very important things are going to be happening over the next couple episodes, things that change the entire landscape of what is to come. When I learned them in the books, my jaw hit the floor. It'll be interesting to see how the show handles it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I was expecting the doors leading "outside" as, you know, doors. Huge gates in the side of the wall. Not a well.

Pretty sure there aren't any actual doors in the books either. Would kind of defeat the point if their were.

[IthilanorStPete]

Pretty sure there aren't any actual doors in the books either. Would kind of defeat the point if their were.

In the books, the Moon Door is just a door that opens on to nothing.

[hamlet]

Pretty sure there aren't any actual doors in the books either. Would kind of defeat the point if their were.

It's an actual door in the wall of the Eyrie's throne room in the novels, leading to a 1000 foot drop outside. The Lords' Arryn favored form of execution.

[thorgrim29]

For example Superpanda, you might want to wait a bit before liking Tywin.

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A fair bit of what went wrong is his fault. He's part of the reason why Cercei is so insane, why Jaime struggles with finding his true nature (doing colossal damage along the way) and most if not all of the reason Tyrion, easily his smartest and most capable child, is so messed up (his wife died in childbirth, and he always blamed Tyrion for her death, him being a dwarf just makes it worse). Yes he was a competent ruler, but he was only in it for power, while Venitari is in it for Ankh Morpork as far as I know.

Also, on episode 7, poor, stupid, honourable, inflexible Ned... Should have listened to Renly or Littlefinger, and most of all shouldn't have warned Cercei.

[SuperPanda]

Oh, I didn't see enough of Tywin to like him or not, and I sort of missed half of what he was saying because I was too busy noticing that he was Vetenari.

The actor (whose name shamefully escapes me) nailed the pressence of Vetenari perfectly for me in the film adaptation of Going Postal. he might not have looked right for the part but the way he commanded the screen anytime he was on it was perfectly Vetenari for me. In a small way its like not being able to hear Michael Dorn's voice without looking for Worf or see David Tennant without looking for a Tardis (though Matt Smith is doing a great job at making me forget Ten). He created the personae of Vetenari so masterfully for me that I mentally had to reverse gears and remember that this wasn't the Patrician and try to figure out who he was.


I want to see more of him because his actor is amazing, he could be the evilest dark lord of them all and I'd still love the character (at this stage) because I spent the entire scene going "Vetenari is carving up a dear while telling off Jamie... wait, how does Vetenari know Jamie."

mostly it made me

[0Megabyte]

Well, luckily, Tywin is no dark lord. If you look at things from his perspective, his decisions throughout the series make sense. He is a flawed man who kinda sucks at being a father. I'd rather him in charge than, say, Cercei.

[hamlet]

Well, luckily, Tywin is no dark lord. If you look at things from his perspective, his decisions throughout the series make sense. He is a flawed man who kinda sucks at being a father. I'd rather him in charge than, say, Cercei.

He also has some very good reasons for the things he does. It's not just about power.

[Dienekes]

Well, luckily, Tywin is no dark lord. If you look at things from his perspective, his decisions throughout the series make sense. He is a flawed man who kinda sucks at being a father. I'd rather him in charge than, say, Cercei.

I'd rather have an actual wooden door in charge than Cersei. At least the door couldn't screw things up.

[Eldan]

Never read Sanderson, can't comment.

Give him a try, then. I'd recommend Warbreaker, personally, I thought it worked better than his other books (When reading Mistborn, I thought the first book was too short, while the other two were too long, Elantris, for me, had reveals that were too obvious from the beginning and The Stormlight Archives, while absolutely awesome for the illustrations alone, is not done yet).

[DomaDoma]

Well, luckily, Tywin is no dark lord. If you look at things from his perspective, his decisions throughout the series make sense. He is a flawed man who kinda sucks at being a father. I'd rather him in charge than, say, Cercei.

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Heck, unless Dany does actually figure out how to perform her insane balancing act while still being basically a benevolent queen, I'd rather have Tywin in charge than anybody else in the freaking series. (I don't count Jon because Jon has a more limited demographic to work with.)

Though, he is a little too hesitant to put a leash on his grandson the way he put a leash on Aerys...

[hamlet]

Give him a try, then. I'd recommend Warbreaker, personally, I thought it worked better than his other books (When reading Mistborn, I thought the first book was too short, while the other two were too long, Elantris, for me, had reveals that were too obvious from the beginning and The Stormlight Archives, while absolutely awesome for the illustrations alone, is not done yet).

Seems vaguely interesting.

Though I can say I am rather enjoying Discworld in my spare reading time (can finish one of those books in about a week) while I'm re-reading GOT.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's an actual door in the wall of the Eyrie's throne room in the novels, leading to a 1000 foot drop outside. The Lords' Arryn favored form of execution.

Oh, that door. I was thinking of the holes in the floors of the cells.

Well, luckily, Tywin is no dark lord. If you look at things from his perspective, his decisions throughout the series make sense. He is a flawed man who kinda sucks at being a father. I'd rather him in charge than, say, Cercei.

Tywin's main problem is that his three heirs are all traits of his seperated out rather than copies of himself.

Cersei has his ruthlessness and ambition.
Tyrion has his intelligence.
Jaime has his presence.
Kevan has his competance and sense.

His most important trait is probably his experiance though.

He also has some very good reasons for the things he does. It's not just about power.

If he was all about power he'd flex it a lot more, but basically he's an egoist who thinks only he's able to run the country despite being partly right.

[Da'Shain]

SuperPanda:

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Ok, lots to go through, but I'm not going to pull each out individually.

There's a reason why the Starks look, at first blush, to be a "hero" type of group. It's because for the first book, much, if not most, of the story is told from their perspective, even if it's coming from the eyes of Tyrion. We tend to sympathize with them tremendously because we get the universe filtered through their perspectives. We understand what makes them tick and what their goals are, and in comparing them to the perceived goals (remember who's eyes we're looking through) of folks like the Lannisters, who seem sinister from the perspectives of people like Ned, Arya, and Catlyn, the Stark goals of ensuring family safety and continued prosperity seem entirely reasonable.

Sorta spoilerish:

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This changes as you move into new books/seasons. You pick up more points of view where you learn more about the inner thoughts of certain people who, right now, seem almost cartoonishly villainous. Little tidbits of history get uncovered one nugget at a time and you can start to piece together some of the "truth" about what's actually going on and you learn some things that might change your mind about the Starks, Lannisters, and all the other players.

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To be completely honest, I've never read anything that made me "change my mind" about the Starks or the Lannisters; I've found that the impression they left in the first book is pretty much only solidified by the information we receive later. The Starks appear, from the beginning, to be Northmen mostly interested in living their own lives far away from court, honorable to a fault even when they know they've made a mistake, legitimately caring about their subjects and their family as people and not merely game pieces, and deadly straightforward and serious enemies when roused.

The Lannisters, from just about the beginning, were set up as the antagonist house, and really, their first impressions have mostly borne out. Rich, entitled, arrogant and scheming, with the exception of Tyrion they don't feel constrained by honor or morality, they view everyone as a possible disposable pawn even if they have some personal feelings for them, they have little to no regard for the plight of their serfs, and they crave power and recognition (not necessarily a bad thing, of course).

The fact that the Starks have been shown to be dangerously idealistic and the Lannisters pragmatic doesn't really change the fact that the Starks are the good guys, and the Lannisters the bad guys, despite both houses of course having elements of grey in them. Of course, (further major spoilers, be warned)

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The fact that by the end of book 4, House Stark has essentially ceased to exist as a political entity, and that of the three villainous Lannisters, the most dangerous is dead, the queen is imprisoned and likely to be executed, and the third has had a change of heart,

means that such distinctions have been rendered irrelevant, which might be closer to what you meant.

[hamlet]

Oh, that door. I was thinking of the holes in the floors of the cells.

Actually, those cells "merely" have their fourth wall missing. The depiction on the show is too large and the floors are not slanted enough.

Kevan has his competance and sense.

Remains to be seen how Jamie will fair in this light. There are glimmers that the man is quite sensible in his own right. Or at l east, some of the time.

If he was all about power he'd flex it a lot more, but basically he's an egoist who thinks only he's able to run the country despite being partly right.

That, and he's:

1) Attempting to restore the honor of his house which was flushed away by his father

2) Acutely aware of what would happen if he were to display weakness.

3) Actually, truly capable compared to most others running around.

Tywin is, pretty much, the guy who, assuming you're on his good side, you want in charge. He looks after those who serve well, and he isn't overtly cruel unless the situation warrants it. And he knows when "simple morality" is something that you can let get in the way of doing the correct thing.

His biggest flaws orbit his children, really. The only one he even views as human is Jamie. The other two are tools or embarrassments, or an admixture of both.


Da'Shain:

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Well, it really depends on how you're reading the books, I suppose. From my perspective, I get hints that the Stark family isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, all things considered, they teach their kids the right values, bring them up the right way . . . but at the same time, they truly fail some of the major life lessons that need to be learned in this world.

On the other hand, yeah, the Lannisters look like they're set up to be antagonists, even if they have some laudible goals in mind. However, when it comes down to it, most of them have very good reasons for doing the things they do, even if we know they're quite monstrous acts. Tywin can be a heartless, cruel bastard of a man, but he's trying his hardest to restore and maintain the status and honor of his house, ensure the future of his children and grandchildren, the stability of the realm, and maybe, just maybe, the happiness of his family (I honestly think, sometimes, that he has some wierd idea that he "knows best" what will be best and that his decisions will make people happy even if they won't admit it). Cersei, right up until the point she really loses her mind, is trying to protect her children and ensure their futures. She's also trying to prove herself, and fails spectacularly, but we can hardly blame her for having some feminist ideals, even if they are tainted with her vast superiority complex.

Tyrion, well Tyrion's kind of a special case. If he could just learn to shut his mouth and lay off the whores, he'd probably do much better in the world.

Jamie . . . I get the sense that, deep down, he really could rise as high and do as well as his father. Better, perhaps, because he's learned some lessons about humility and honor that his father never did. Even to the point of realizing what his eldest son was. His time with Brienne really seems to have changed him, I think. Don't get me wrong, he's still monstrous for at least one particular crime, but he's understandable and he's got the most room for growth, I think.

All in all, I think that these families are less about being protagonists and antagonists, and more about being strange foils of each other. On the one hand, a family that espouses honor above all (other than preparedness that'd put boyscouts to shame) and straightforwardness, but lack the common sense God gifted to lemmings. On the other, a family too clever by half, plotters, schemers, and so indirect they can barely conceive of a straightforward approach to anything, but savvy enough to really make a go of things when they aren't tripping over their own faults and vices.

In the end, I think that these two families embody one of the main themes. Balance. Finding that balance between extremes. Fusing advice from opposing viewpoints and options to forge your own, stronger path because of it.

After all, most of the problems, as I see them, come in when people sway too far to one extreme or another, whether it's too honorable, too scheming, too naive, too untrusting, too much of anything. The people who do the best, I think, will prove to be those who balance the extremes and learn to bring things towards a center.

[Xondoure]

Book spoilersish

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One of the great things about the series was everyone got what was coming to them, and not just the villains. As badly as things have gone its not too hard to see the "bad guys" tearing each other apart leaving the "good" who managed to survive there to pick up the pieces. Oh, and the others force a deadline.

Its interesting looking back and seeing what could have fixed everything. Had Catelyn not gone south Ned would have had less reason to come into conflict with the Lannisters and may have survived long enough to get Sansa and Arya away from the city, which may have bought him the advantage he needed to win. Had Ned not gone south the Lannisters would have replaced Robert when they saw fit and unified the kingdom effectively under them. Despite their arrogance they would have been more than competent had Tywin become involved and the realm would have prospered. Had Melisandre not been an idiot and kept a more open view of possible candidates for her prophecy she would have stood behind Daenerys instead of Stannis leaving Stannis locked in the keep and Renly to take control of the south. There are more but I can't recall at the moment.

[0Megabyte]

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In other words, we have a truly epic clusterfrack brought on by a hundred characters making the best decisions they could based on the info they had, and the foibles that limit them. Which is why I love this series.

[Da'Shain]

Da'Shain:

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Well, it really depends on how you're reading the books, I suppose. From my perspective, I get hints that the Stark family isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, all things considered, they teach their kids the right values, bring them up the right way . . . but at the same time, they truly fail some of the major life lessons that need to be learned in this world.

On the other hand, yeah, the Lannisters look like they're set up to be antagonists, even if they have some laudible goals in mind. However, when it comes down to it, most of them have very good reasons for doing the things they do, even if we know they're quite monstrous acts. Tywin can be a heartless, cruel bastard of a man, but he's trying his hardest to restore and maintain the status and honor of his house, ensure the future of his children and grandchildren, the stability of the realm, and maybe, just maybe, the happiness of his family (I honestly think, sometimes, that he has some wierd idea that he "knows best" what will be best and that his decisions will make people happy even if they won't admit it). Cersei, right up until the point she really loses her mind, is trying to protect her children and ensure their futures. She's also trying to prove herself, and fails spectacularly, but we can hardly blame her for having some feminist ideals, even if they are tainted with her vast superiority complex.

Tyrion, well Tyrion's kind of a special case. If he could just learn to shut his mouth and lay off the whores, he'd probably do much better in the world.

Jamie . . . I get the sense that, deep down, he really could rise as high and do as well as his father. Better, perhaps, because he's learned some lessons about humility and honor that his father never did. Even to the point of realizing what his eldest son was. His time with Brienne really seems to have changed him, I think. Don't get me wrong, he's still monstrous for at least one particular crime, but he's understandable and he's got the most room for growth, I think.

All in all, I think that these families are less about being protagonists and antagonists, and more about being strange foils of each other. On the one hand, a family that espouses honor above all (other than preparedness that'd put boyscouts to shame) and straightforwardness, but lack the common sense God gifted to lemmings. On the other, a family too clever by half, plotters, schemers, and so indirect they can barely conceive of a straightforward approach to anything, but savvy enough to really make a go of things when they aren't tripping over their own faults and vices.

In the end, I think that these two families embody one of the main themes. Balance. Finding that balance between extremes. Fusing advice from opposing viewpoints and options to forge your own, stronger path because of it.

After all, most of the problems, as I see them, come in when people sway too far to one extreme or another, whether it's too honorable, too scheming, too naive, too untrusting, too much of anything. The people who do the best, I think, will prove to be those who balance the extremes and learn to bring things towards a center.

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I'm not claiming that the Starks are particularly competent, although to be honest I think they get a bad rap in that regard. The moves of theirs that are considered particularly stupid (trusting Littlefinger, Ned warning Cersei instead of simply seizing power, Cat seizing Tyrion, Robb marrying Jeyne ... if there's another I can't think of it off the top of my head) are mostly made because of bad information and their honorable good guy before reason outlook. Trusting Littlefinger is the only one of those I'd call legitimately a stupid move; even Cat's arrest of Tyrion was made, IIRC, because she legitimately believed he was her son's attempted murderer and because she thought that he would have tried something similar on her when he recognized her.

But at no point do I get the sense that the Starks are not good people; they're merely not made for playing this "Game of Thrones", hence why they've stayed out of it up North for hundreds of years.

The Lannisters, on the other hand, may believe that they're doing what they do for the good of the realm (something which I doubt is true in any but Tywin's case, and even in his it's questionable), but that doesn't make them any less antagonists. Tywin is certainly one of the greyest villains I can recall, but I never didn't consider him a villain. The mere fact that he employs people like Gregor Clegane, knowing full well what he does, is enough to make him one. The fact that he's apparently amazingly competent and could have probably kept the kingdoms together and stable does not make him less of a villain, it simply means that he's competent. Nor does the fact that he has good reasons to do what he does make him less of a villain; there's plenty of logical reasons to perform monstrous and evil acts.

Cersei does much of what she does in order to protect her children (and specifically Joffrey, really, as she shows nowhere near as much care and love for the other two on-page), but she turned the child she was grooming into a complete monster, she conspired to kill her husband and king, she refused to even entertain the possibility of herself and her son being in the wrong ... and obviously after she attains the full regency, her true colors show, as she's both far more vindictive and far less competent than Tywin.

I disagree that the series is attempting to advocate some kind of middle ground. The fatal flaw of House Stark was basically trusting too much in idealism (i.e. honor before reason is always the right path, friends are always trustworthy until proven otherwise, traditions are highly unlikely to be broken, etc.). Other than that, its members were legitimately good people. Whereas the Lannisters' fatal flaw seems to be ambition, but even setting aside that flaw they're vindictive murderers with virtually no care for those beneath them except in regard to how useful they are. Jaime's on the path back from that, but tellingly it's required turning away from both his father and sister, which should emphasize how far he's straying from his upbringing.

[Yanagi]

@ hamlet

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Tywin's motive is the advancement of House Lannister--this encompasses his activities under Aerys, during Robert's Rebellion, and on into the Baratheon dynasty encompassed by the books. Everything is a calculation with this end in mind: the "correct" end is the ones that benefits Casterly Rock, whether that's maintenance of the status quo or its overturn.

Why it's his prime motive is complex, and much of what makes the character interesting. His attempt to define himself in opposition to his father, a social disconnect following the death of his wife...these seem to be big contributors. But I also get the sense that he's an egoist as well: everybody else seems to be making sacrifices for the sake of the House when Tywin tells them to.

I'd summarize Tywin by saying he desires compliance over all else. This makes him a masterful macro-scale leader and organizer, but an absolutely crap relative. It's not a coincidence all three of his kids are completely twisted: for most of their lives he's been treating them like automata.

But in both his formal and intimate social dynamics, he's driven by a utilitarian ethos. If you're useful, he'll reward you. If you're not useful, he really doesn't care-- consider how completely unfazed he is about pretty much everything his "dogs" do to common folk. If you're an obstacle, he'll cut you away expediently...see pretty much every Machiavellian intrigue he engages in.

Defiance is the crack in his otherwise utilitarian facade . You really, really don't want to be someone who defies him, 'cause then he whips out the disproportionate retribution.

This is a man whose disproportionate retribution has its own theme song.

@ Da'Shain

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Well said about Tywin's use of Clegane...and Hoat and Lorch, eventually. I was also creeped out by how readily he agreed to arm to hill peoples in the Vale of Arryn. The Red Wedding is also a vivid demonstration, particuarly given how conspiring to violate guest-right is, um...blasphemous is the best word I can arrive at.

I'm not sure it's so much that he's a grey villain as that the whole fictional setting is mightily grey and he's dark shade. While almost everybody is operated on flawed premises and personal damage, Tywin orders a lot of horrific stuff for calculated reasons...the death of Elia of Dorne being a prime example...where the big picture really doesn't synch up with specifics. And then there's the deep, deep awfulness of his dealing with Tyrion's marriage: that was the anecdote that really drove home that deep down there was something operating in Tywin other than logical expedience.

[Eldan]

It's an actual door in the wall of the Eyrie's throne room in the novels, leading to a 1000 foot drop outside. The Lords' Arryn favored form of execution.

Oh, so I didn't make that one up in my mind. Good.

And one thing I think I need to remark on, as it's not really shown in the series, mostly for lack of a map:

[The Starks] have no power compared to the other players, have made very powerful enemies, are all in bad positions, are separated from each other.

They have one strength on their side. Namely, they rule The North. There is a reason why The North is always capitalized. The North is, by itself, about the size of the other six kingdoms combined. It's not as densely populated, sure, but it is closest to the wildlings and the iron isles, and it has a reputation for having the hardiest warriors.
There was a short remark in the series: The Targaryens and their dragons conquered six kingdoms. Not the North. The North joined them later.

[Dienekes]

They have one strength on their side. Namely, they rule The North. There is a reason why The North is always capitalized. The North is, by itself, about the size of the other six kingdoms combined. It's not as densely populated, sure, but it is closest to the wildlings and the iron isles, and it has a reputation for having the hardiest warriors.
There was a short remark in the series: The Targaryens and their dragons conquered six kingdoms. Not the North. The North joined them later.

That was Dorne I think. The North kneeled without fighting upon realizing they were outmatched.

[Eldan]

What, really? Man. I was so sure. It's been years since I read the books.

Yeah, could be Dorne.

[Demon 997]

What, really? Man. I was so sure. It's been years since I read the books.

Yeah, could be Dorne.

Yep it was Dorne. They married in I think.

Does the scene where Tywin is butchering the stag seem odd to anyone else? The symbolism is amazing, but I can't really see Tywin getting his hands dirty like that. He also seemed to have a much better relationship with Jaime than he does later on.

[TheFallenOne]

It felt very odd to me too that Tywin does such manual labour himself, particularly considering

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his reaction to a butchers son getting Harrenhal

The beginning seconds of the episode made me think I'm accidentally watching Rome. Maybe they borrowed some leftover costumes and stuff, don't think it was only the red cloth.

I have to say I love the 'filler' stuff they do, most is spot-on and really enjoyable. I never pictured Jaime and Barristan to be all buddylike as shown when they exchanged war stories, but still great scene. Roberts change of facial expression was nice.

One thing I can't explain though - why does Theon get so much screentime? It's quite noticable(you see him more than most of the Stark children) and he doesn't have an important role this season. First couple episodes he was left on the sidelines, now they give much emphasis to his family, status as a hostage and the Greyjoys rebellion.

[Eldan]

I think it's mostly to avoid "hey who is this guy" syndrome later. For me, when he actually does something in the books, it was at a point I never really thought about him. I can't help but feel that, in the show, it would look like lazy writing. "Hey, there were stuck with the plot and brought in a new guy!" So, they give him some scenes.

Also, have we ever actually seen Cersei's other two children?

[Seerow]

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I think it's mostly to avoid "hey who is this guy" syndrome later. For me, when he actually does something in the books, it was at a point I never really thought about him. I can't help but feel that, in the show, it would look like lazy writing. "Hey, there were stuck with the plot and brought in a new guy!" So, they give him some scenes.

Also, have we ever actually seen Cersei's other two children?

We saw Tommen and Myrcella briefly in Episode 2 I think, but I don't think they were even referenced by name.

[Mauther]

Yeah the other kids are getting short thrift, but with the size of this cast its not surprising. I don't even know if Rickon has been shown on screen yet, they've only mentioned him by name once. And poor Sir Rodrick probably has the most screen time (with that awesome ponytail-beard) of any minor character and I can't recall them calling him by name either. Somewhere there is an eighty hour director's cut waiting.

One difference in the series that I don't recall from the books.

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The scene where Renly is basically pushed toward rebellion by his lover.

I know the books heavily imply he was a pawn, but that doesn't come out till much later. I'm not sure I like the early reveal. Seeing the seeds planted early certainly makes sense, but in the books the war of the 5 kings just sort of brews up, and its only later that you see where it all came from.

[Eldan]

Spoiler

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Yeah the other kids are getting short thrift, but with the size of this cast its not surprising. I don't even know if Rickon has been shown on screen yet, they've only mentioned him by name once. And poor Sir Rodrick probably has the most screen time (with that awesome ponytail-beard) of any minor character and I can't recall them calling him by name either. Somewhere there is an eighty hour director's cut waiting.

One difference in the series that I don't recall from the books.

Spoiler

Show

The scene where Renly is basically pushed toward rebellion by his lover.

I know the books heavily imply he was a pawn, but that doesn't come out till much later. I'm not sure I like the early reveal. Seeing the seeds planted early certainly makes sense, but in the books the war of the 5 kings just sort of brews up, and its only later that you see where it all came from

.

Uhm, spoilers?