When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Zocelot]

I'm betting Petyr will be the BBEG of the series. If there's any Big Bad, he's it.

Dunno if this should be spoilered, since it's just speculation, but I'd rather be on the safe side.

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I'm betting that he dies in book 5 or 6. Either Cat or Sansa will kill him. Or possibly his gambit that the river lords will allow him to keep ruling will not pay off, and he'll be stripped of power and/or killed.

[BRC]

Some things
The Show, with Spoilers pertaining to the Books.

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This is totally random, but as soon as Syrio said "There is but one god, and his name is death", my first thought was "Faceless man?"

Clearly Syrio, Jaquim Hadegar, and the Kindly Man (Three of Arya's Murderous Mentors" are all the same person. This is the only explanation that makes sense.

The Books

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As I see it, Sansa is going down the road of learning to play the Game of Thrones. She's still fairly passive (the most active thing she ever did was betray her own father in order to maintain of her delusions of a fairy-tail marriage). She's still reliant on Littlefinger for protection now, but I maintain hopes that she will actually grow a spine and a pair of brain cells at some point. She's starting to move toward that, now that she's a servant instead of a Lady she's actually needing to use her brain in day-to-day life, hopefully this means that at some point she will become more than a simple pawn and start making decisions on her own. In order for that to happen, Peytr will need to leave the board. I see two ways this could happen.
1: Sansa stands up for herself and turns Littlefinger's plan back on him. Perhaps she lets his plan work, then seizes power at the last minute, or perhaps she uses her influence with Robin (who is still technically lord of the Vale) to have Littlefinger killed for the murder of Lyssa. Either way, she gets rid of Littlefinger and starts trying to establish a place for herself.
2: Somebody else gets rid of Littlefinger, Sansa now lacks protection and is forced to start acting on her own in order to survive.

[Flame of Anor]

Honestly, I feel the same way about Lord of the Rings as you do about A Song of Ice and Fire, Sinfonian.

Oh, one other thing:

I'm betting Petyr will be the BBEG of the series. If there's any Big Bad, he's it.

Nah, it's got to be the Others. Everything's building up to the great onslaught of Winter, and what better representative?

Some things
The Show, with Spoilers pertaining to the Books.

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This is totally random, but as soon as Syrio said "There is but one god, and his name is death", my first thought was "Faceless man?"

Clearly Syrio, Jaquim Hadegar, and the Kindly Man (Three of Arya's Murderous Mentors" are all the same person. This is the only explanation that makes sense.

Jaqen H'ghar, I believe it's spelled, but that's a very interesting theory. It doesn't have to be that way, though; it could just be a common background.

The Books

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As I see it, Sansa is going down the road of learning to play the Game of Thrones. She's still fairly passive (the most active thing she ever did was betray her own father in order to maintain of her delusions of a fairy-tail marriage). She's still reliant on Littlefinger for protection now, but I maintain hopes that she will actually grow a spine and a pair of brain cells at some point. She's starting to move toward that, now that she's a servant instead of a Lady she's actually needing to use her brain in day-to-day life, hopefully this means that at some point she will become more than a simple pawn and start making decisions on her own. In order for that to happen, Peytr will need to leave the board. I see two ways this could happen.
1: Sansa stands up for herself and turns Littlefinger's plan back on him. Perhaps she lets his plan work, then seizes power at the last minute, or perhaps she uses her influence with Robin (who is still technically lord of the Vale) to have Littlefinger killed for the murder of Lyssa. Either way, she gets rid of Littlefinger and starts trying to establish a place for herself.
2: Somebody else gets rid of Littlefinger, Sansa now lacks protection and is forced to start acting on her own in order to survive.

I just can't stand Sansa. She's a realistic character, but she needs a good kick in the pants. Well, skirt.

[Zocelot]

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I think that, in the TV series we're going to actually see Syrio being killed. The TV series has been used to confirm fan speculation about about Renly/Loras (Renloras) and Illyrio/Varys (Illvaryos), so I wouldn't be surprised if it confirmed that Syrio was in fact dead. It could also be possible that it'll confirm that he lives.

[Dienekes]

Some things
The Show, with Spoilers pertaining to the Books.

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This is totally random, but as soon as Syrio said "There is but one god, and his name is death", my first thought was "Faceless man?"

Clearly Syrio, Jaquim Hadegar, and the Kindly Man (Three of Arya's Murderous Mentors" are all the same person. This is the only explanation that makes sense.

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There's actually a group of folk who believe firmly that Jaqen H'ghar is Syrio and they list this as evidence:
H'ghar can change his face, so it's theoretically possible
They both say "Just so" a lot.
Nowhere is it said for certain that Syrio dies
Just after his last stand Arya says she can hear his voice giving her instructions.
H'ghar is obviously too skilled to be captured by the goldcloaks, so why was he there?

Personally I don't like this theory. Syrio Forel was a badass, and had his epic moment of glory. Making him come back as some petty (though magical) assassin just doesn't feel right to me.

[Sinfonian]

Some things
The Show, with Spoilers pertaining to the Books.

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This is totally random, but as soon as Syrio said "There is but one god, and his name is death", my first thought was "Faceless man?"

Clearly Syrio, Jaquim Hadegar, and the Kindly Man (Three of Arya's Murderous Mentors" are all the same person. This is the only explanation that makes sense.

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Interesting theory that would make a great deal of sense, with a couple of difficulties.

First, why would a Faceless man hire himself to be the swordsmanship teacher to a young girl? The only thing I can think of would be that he might have taken the job to get close to a target in the Red Keep (who?), unless he had some reason to believe that Arya was a potential candidate to join the Faceless men (that'd bring up WAY more questions than it would solve). Second, when Ser Meryn Trant comes for him with the guards, if the Faceless men are quite as good as their reputation, then I'd have to wonder why Trant is alive after the encounter.

Neither of these make it impossible for your theory to be true, they just complicate it.

[BRC]

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Interesting theory that would make a great deal of sense, with a couple of difficulties.

First, why would a Faceless man hire himself to be the swordsmanship teacher to a young girl? The only thing I can think of would be that he might have taken the job to get close to a target in the Red Keep (who?), unless he had some reason to believe that Arya was a potential candidate to join the Faceless men (that'd bring up WAY more questions than it would solve). Second, when Ser Meryn Trant comes for him with the guards, if the Faceless men are quite as good as their reputation, then I'd have to wonder why Trant is alive after the encounter.

Neither of these make it impossible for your theory to be true, they just complicate it.

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I was kind of joking. I was hoping the "Clearly this is the only thing that makes sense" would give it away, but that's the problem with a text-only medium.

But, if you're looking at it seriously. Arya's training shows that the Faceless men value Secrets. He wasn't training her 24/7, and any Faceless Man worth his salt could get around the Red Keep easily enough.
Even if he wasn't actively on the job, they may have figured it was only a matter of time before they got hired to kill somebody in Kings landing, and they wanted at least one operative who was familiar with the Court and the layout of the Keep itself.

as for why he sacrificed himself. Perhaps as he saw it, he did sign an actual contract with Ned Stark, and he considered it therefore his responsibility to protect Arya. He was saving a life instead of ending one, but he may have considered himself bound. Throw in how the Faceless Men worship death, he may not have feared it enough to be incredibly put off by the idea of sacrificing himself. Death may not have seemed to be such a big deal to him.

[ShaggyMarco]

On Syrio (book spoilers 2-4)

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While I can get behind the theory that Syrio and Jaquen are the same guy (not that I believe it, but I could buy it.). The Kindly man absolutely can't be the same guy. We see Jaquen's real face after he's completed his deal with Arya, while he is changing faces.

We then see someone change through the exact same face in the Prologue of book 4. That someone is living in close proximity with Samwell by the end of Book 4. So, you see, he couldn't be in Old Town and Braavos at the same time

[Flame of Anor]

On Syrio (book spoilers 2-4)

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While I can get behind the theory that Syrio and Jaquen are the same guy (not that I believe it, but I could buy it.). The Kindly man absolutely can't be the same guy. We see Jaquen's real face after he's completed his deal with Arya, while he is changing faces.

We then see someone change through the exact same face in the Prologue of book 4. That someone is living in close proximity with Samwell by the end of Book 4. So, you see, he couldn't be in Old Town and Braavos at the same time

Ah, but as the Faceless Men say, valar teleportis.

[DomaDoma]

I just can't stand Sansa. She's a realistic character, but she needs a good kick in the pants. Well, skirt.

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How did the legends in this universe get such a Victorian level of starry-eyed idealism, anyway? You'd expect there to be a lot more Beowulf-style DEATH AND GOLD AND GOLD AND DEATH going on.

Anyway, I agree Sansa is an annoying little brat, but on the other hand, I definitely want to hear more about Alayne Stone.

.

[Seerow]

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How did the legends in this universe get such a Victorian level of starry-eyed idealism, anyway? You'd expect there to be a lot more Beowulf-style DEATH AND GOLD AND GOLD AND DEATH going on.

Anyway, I agree Sansa is an annoying little brat, but on the other hand, I definitely want to hear more about Alayne Stone.

.

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Sadly she won't even make an appearance in ADWD according to GRRMs blog. The chapters we had initially been promised with her have been pushed into the next book.

Really, given how something gets pushed forward every book (it was roughly 200 pages worth of material from various PoVs this time), I really don't see him finishing in the expected 7 books.

[0Megabyte]

@Seerow

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I hate it when people say that. It's like people are forgetting that Dance was originally supposed to be only the parts concurrent with Feast. Instead, Dance is going farther, significantly farther, into stuff that happens after the timeline of Feast. Honestly, everything after that point was originally going into Winter. So what if a few hundred pages that were supposed to go into Winter are going into Winter?

We're still literally hundreds of pages ahead of where we would have been, and thus farther into the plot. Considering that Dance is so freaking huge specifically because Martin didn't want to leave quite so many cliffhangers after so long, I'd say we're doing fine.

Once you see a Jaime or Cercei chapter, you should remember that technically, that is Winds of Winter territory, originally.

[Seerow]

@Seerow

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I hate it when people say that. It's like people are forgetting that Dance was originally supposed to be only the parts concurrent with Feast. Instead, Dance is going farther, significantly farther, into stuff that happens after the timeline of Feast. Honestly, everything after that point was originally going into Winter. So what if a few hundred pages that were supposed to go into Winter are going into Winter?

We're still literally hundreds of pages ahead of where we would have been, and thus farther into the plot. Considering that Dance is so freaking huge specifically because Martin didn't want to leave quite so many cliffhangers after so long, I'd say we're doing fine.

Once you see a Jaime or Cercei chapter, you should remember that technically, that is Winds of Winter territory, originally.

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Maybe, but the impression I've always gotten is Martin is literally incapable of writing on any sort of budget, whether it be time or space. Remember, GRRM used to be a television writer, he quit that and went into writing novels because he continually produced scripts that nobody would accept because they were too long. He cited recently that there's a great irony in the fact that he gave up television to write a story that would be unfilmable, and then that same story becomes a television hit.

As an aside, were you aware the series was originally supposed to be only 3 or 4 books long? like I remember seeing something about the red wedding was supposed to be around the end of book 1. Obviously that didn't work out, so GRRM rearranged his stuff, and decided it would be 5 books long. Then he gets to AFFC and realizes that he can't fit everything he wants, and splits the book, rearranged stuff, and decides the story will be 7 books.... then here we are with the second half of the split book, and are having chapters written for the most recent book being pushed forward to another book.

I could be proven wrong, and we will see ADWD this year, and then the last two books both within a reasonable time (1-2, maybe even 3 years each), and WOW will finish the series. If this happens, I will be pleasantly surprised. On the other hand, to me that doesn't seem particularly feasible. And I'm okay with that. I personally don't mind if I'm sitting around 20 years from now reading the 10th ASOIAF book, as long as GRRM doesn't like, die or something, before he finishes.

[Flame of Anor]

I personally don't mind if I'm sitting around 20 years from now reading the 10th ASOIAF book, as long as GRRM doesn't like, die or something, before he finishes.

I agree completely.


(Also, psst, guys, speculating about the release timeline is hardly spoiler material. It's not like anyone could have real information about it... )

[Seerow]

I agree completely.


(Also, psst, guys, speculating about the release timeline is hardly spoiler material. It's not like anyone could have real information about it... )

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Well I can't be sure in this thread since someone told me bran being thrown out a window counts as a spoiler, so I'm spoilering everything to be safe.

That said, I'd argue saying sansa doesn't show up as a POV in ADWD does constitute a spoiler, even if that last most recent post does not.

[0Megabyte]

Yeah, I'm sticking with spoilers too.

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Your points are valid, of course, but you just did it again! You can twist the context however you want, but the stuff going into Winds of Winter was originally supposed to be in Winds anyway. He pulled stuff from Winds of Winter, in the vague way a writer of his type does, into Dance so as to keep the book from being incredibly frustrating due to how long it's been. Really, putting some odd 100 manuscript pages back isn't that big a deal. It honestly doesn't seem to me, from what he's been saying, that he added entirely new, unplanned filler to Dance to deal with some of the cliffhangers, and that now some of that filler has been thrown into Winds.

Instead, as I said, this is stuff that was originally going to be in Winds anyway. Part of that stuff was brought forward into Dance, not the other way around. It means, in aggregate, that there's less in Winds than he planned when he split Feast and Dance. Because he put part of what was planned for Winds into Dance.

Of course, I could be wrong. But it really seems that way to me, from what he's been saying. So Sansa's new chapters aren't in Dance. They were originally for Winds anyway! All it means is that he's already written that part of Winds.

Naturally, I'd be a fool to think that means Winds will take less time. Because Dance was "almost done" when Feast came out. But what it doesn't mean is that there's now more distance between now and the end.

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As to it not seeming feasible: We haven't read Dance, but it seems to me that, and this is blatant speculation, that it's going to be doing a lot of the plot heavy-lifting Feast didn't do. Dany, Jon and Tyrion together have half the chapters of the book. (With Theon at #4.) Since they are the three main characters left at this point, that makes sense. Seriously, what's left of the story? I don't know yet, because only Martin knows what's going to happen. I can figure Dany will stay in Meereene until the end of Dance, at least. Tyrion is heading towards Dany from his first chapter in Dance. I have no idea what's going to happen with Jon. But with Melisandre acting all nice-nice and quoting Ygritte, I somehow have the feeling that Jon's going to be dealing with another red-head longterm, and that the solution to his problem is going to come from there somehow. Still, I assume the horn will be blown, and the wall will fall. Martin's too good a storyteller to not use that Chekhov's gun. From there, where do we go in Winds? We're probably going to get the rest of the fallout from the Sparrows taking control at King's Landing, along with whatever Dany does to actually get to Westeros. I bet she'll get there in the seventh book. And then her plan to conquer the kingdom will be foiled by the fact that the Wall has fallen, and the Others are storming through what was once the Wall. Bran will probably play a big role in book seven, along with whoever else is still alive. Either way, Dany won't get to follow her "conquer Westeros" plan, and instead battle the Others, probably doing the whole Prince Who Was Promised thing and dying heroically. Jon will probably die in typical Stark fashion, because he acted idiotically in some noble way, Sansa will be in charge of Winterfell, Dany will die dramatically, Tyrion will hang out with his first wife in some quiet cottage, Arya will be some psychotic assassin, Jaime and Cercei will be dead, and Bron will be the new king. Because Bron always ends up better off by the end of the book than he was at the beginning.

Oh, and he'll end up marrying Margeary Tyrell. Who will at that point still be a virgin. (don't ask what'll happen to Lolys. This is Bron we're talking about)

[Flame of Anor]

Can we please get a [spoíler] tag in the thread title?

[Dienekes]

Can we please get a [spoíler] tag in the thread title?

Is it really so hard to hit a button that says spoiler?

Personally I think some accommodation for those who haven't read the books and yet want to talk about the series is fine.

[Alcopop]

After watching and loving what episodes have been released I couldn't help but get the books. I'm only a little way into the first but i'm somewhat surprised by the age difference of certain characters! Ned is 35 Jon is 14 and Daenerys, Daenerys is 13! 13~! After knowing what happens to her from the show I'm kinda dreading reading onwards a little. (not that I could stop if I tried, the writing is very compelling). I can understand the changes made to the show. And i'm not criticizing the book or anything, I just found it, well, surprising.

[Elder Tsofu]

Children of winter have to mature early - or not at all.

[Eldan]

Thinking of medieval Europe, it's not that far off. One account I read stated that in around the 13th century, it was not unusual for noble kids to be sent away from home at six, to become a page at some other court. Then become a squire at around 10, and be knighted anywhere around 14. So, you'd probably be going to your first battle at around 12, if you were unlucky.

[Sinfonian]

After watching and loving what episodes have been released I couldn't help but get the books. I'm only a little way into the first but i'm somewhat surprised by the age difference of certain characters! Ned is 35 Jon is 14 and Daenerys, Daenerys is 13! 13~! After knowing what happens to her from the show I'm kinda dreading reading onwards a little. (not that I could stop if I tried, the writing is very compelling). I can understand the changes made to the show. And i'm not criticizing the book or anything, I just found it, well, surprising.

I've commented on this before, and I'll say it again. This is one of the things I think the show's producers really did right. Not only does this mean that many character actions are more believable, especially later on, but it allows the show to get actors better able to act serious scenes. Plus, there's precisely no way that they could ever get away with doing the Daenerys scenes where she is naked/partially naked/having sex, even on HBO; some of which are important to her character arc (ASoIaF is a rare series that way).

[VanBuren]

I've commented on this before, and I'll say it again. This is one of the things I think the show's producers really did right. Not only does this mean that many character actions are more believable, especially later on, but it allows the show to get actors better able to act serious scenes. Plus, there's precisely no way that they could ever get away with doing the Daenerys scenes where she is naked/partially naked/having sex, even on HBO; some of which are important to her character arc (ASoIaF is a rare series that way).

Martin himself is probably to thank for most of that. After his plan for a timeskip didn't pan out, he said that he would have liked to go back and age them up from the beginning.

And boy did he take that opportunity.

[Axolotl]

Is the TV series worth watching if you've already read the books?

I'm only in the second book but I'm finding it to be alot less "grimdark realistic" than I'd been told. Sure it's a very stratified society and brutal war but it's not much worse than most fantasy series I've read. It does feel very sisyphean though, I mean every time a PoV character achieves anything or almost does it's inevitably followed by som,thing horrible happening to them, this combined with the glacial pace the books have does make it pretty hard to keep going. I get that it's a different sort of story to most high fantasy sagas but I keep wishing so Mary Sue character would come along and wipe out at least a few of the bad guys, just for a change of pace.

[Dienekes]

Is the TV series worth watching if you've already read the books?

Yes, in my opinion.

I'm only in the second book but I'm finding it to be alot less "grimdark realistic" than I'd been told. Sure it's a very stratified society and brutal war but it's not much worse than most fantasy series I've read. It does feel very sisyphean though, I mean every time a PoV character achieves anything or almost does it's inevitably followed by som,thing horrible happening to them, this combined with the glacial pace the books have does make it pretty hard to keep going. I get that it's a different sort of story to most high fantasy sagas but I keep wishing so Mary Sue character would come along and wipe out at least a few of the bad guys, just for a change of pace.

I'm of the opinion it's not so much grimdark as just dark. The world is unforgiving of mistakes made by the good guys and the bad and there is no guy you can really point to as a horrible big bad that needs to be taken down.

Personally I was hooked right away, but if you can read through book 3. It's in my opinion the best of the series and I promise you by that time a couple of the evil folks will have been killed.
Big example:

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Joffrey, poor poor Joffrey. How I miss him.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Personally I was hooked right away, but if you can read through book 3. It's in my opinion the best of the series and I promise you by that time a couple of the evil folks will have been killed.
Big example:

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Joffrey, poor poor Joffrey. How I miss him.

Well that may be, but still

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The only character I was really championing (Robb) dies and I still haven't forgiven the books for it (I am incredibly petty, don't try and argue here ). More to the point, there just isn't any character left I like that I can imagine winning enough of the war to carve themselves out a non-terrible resolution (though I suppose that's what character growth is for) and it's all the fault of that third book

[Closet_Skeleton]

I get that it's a different sort of story to most high fantasy sagas but I keep wishing so Mary Sue character would come along and wipe out at least a few of the bad guys, just for a change of pace.

Wait for book three

At least if you go by the "Jon and Dany suck, they actually succeed at stuff on occaison, only Petyr, Melisandre and Tywin should be allowed to do that" crowd. I jest and don't want to start this argument again.

I'm only in the second book but I'm finding it to be alot less "grimdark realistic" than I'd been told.

Grimdark realistic should be an oxymoron. Something can be realistic and grim and dark and gritty or whatever but warhammer 40k's old tagline should mean so rediclously dark it becomes stupid to the point of self parody and even further beyond to where everyone has forgotten the joke.

Well that may be, but still

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The only character I was really championing (Robb) dies and I still haven't forgiven the books for it (I am incredibly petty, don't try and argue here ). More to the point, there just isn't any character left I like that I can imagine winning enough of the war to carve themselves out a non-terrible resolution (though I suppose that's what character growth is for) and it's all the fault of that third book

Who cares? The others will kill them all anyway

[Axolotl]

Wait for book three

I'm going to continue with because I love the characters and it has got it's hooks into me. It's just the endless failure gets me fairly tiring at times.

Grimdark realistic should be an oxymoron. Something can be realistic and grim and dark and gritty or whatever but warhammer 40k's old tagline should mean so rediclously dark it becomes stupid to the point of self parody and even further beyond to where everyone has forgotten the joke.

Welll, I've heard people call it both grimdark and realistic. It's not really either. Bad things happen but it's not grimdark just sort of brutal. And it's not realistic either, it's just as much high fantasy as say LotR or Dragon Age. Sure nobody goes around chucking lightning but it still has mghty aristocratic heros clad in jewel encrusted armour. What separates it is that the heros are on both all sides.

[thorgrim29]

Also, the heroes in jewel encrusted armor tend to die, a lot

[Artemis97]

I know this is from a few pages back, but in regards to the Moon Door is anyone else wondering...

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...how in the world are they going to do the scene with Lysa and Sansa and Petyr and her falling through it with that big winch being way on the other side of the room like that?