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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    Kind of odd to see this start to wrap up and then remember that several important characters haven't appeared yet. Mainly Mhirri Maz Dhur or whatever her name was.
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  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axolotl View Post
    My point was that even without the explicitly supernatural elements it's not a rigerously realistic setting. Now while I think any of my examples could have existed in real life they're all exceptional and legendary things. For example Ser Gregor, yes big people do exist and I'm sure in the equivalent time period someone of Gregor's size, birth and temprement would be a legendary knight, but in ASoIaF he's surrounded by other legendary figures from heroic kinghts to machiavellian tricksters.
    Welcome to fiction.

    Realism in fiction in general and fantasy in particular doesn't really mean non-legendary. Books are often written about the legendary, because otherwise you wouldn't be writing the book. It just means legends that one could conceive of existing, and despite the
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    dragons, abomination-birthers, zombies, zombie-makers, ice-wall, creepy gods, etc
    by the standards of fantastic fiction, I would put forth that it is quite rigorously realistic (excepting the...well, the above, of course.) But that's just my own opinion, of course.

  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axolotl View Post
    I live in a town with a medieval castle in it. A relatively large one as well because it's in a stratiguic postition. But it's nowhere near the size of even The Eyrie let alone the other castle the series has.
    I've seen castles that big, places like Dover Castle are on that scale. And really only the capitols of each of the 7 kingdoms is on that scale, which makes sense seeing that at one point they were the center of independent warring states. It just so happens that we have an over representation of the capitols (Winterfell, the Eyrie, Kings Landing etc).
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    I didn't mind the Deer Butchering, it's some nice symbolism (what with the stag being the symbol of house baratheon), it prevents talking head syndrome by providing some visuals, and it shows the type of man Tywin Lannister is, ruthless, intelligent, and willing to get his hands dirty.
    What I didn't like was
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    Littlefinger's scene, which was a concentrated dose of the problem with HBO.

    I picture the writing room, it goes something like this

    Writer One: So, we need to establish Littlefinger's character a little more. There is a lot to keep track of in this show, and we need to make sure the audience understands him.
    Writer Two: But won't that mean rehashing some things that have already been covered?
    Writer One: Yeah, but it's important they know what type of person he is, we'll give it to them in one go, rather than counting on them having put all the pieces together, and remembering what those pieces are.
    Then, as they start working, a third writer bursts into the room.
    Writer Three: Hey guys! I just remembered, this is HBO! WE CAN SHOW NAUGHTY BITS!

    And then all three writers started giggling and scribbling "Boobies" all over the script.

    This is the problem with lots of HBO stuff, they take intelligent programming, and then feel a need to include this sort of lowest common denominator sillyness. I'm less offended than insulted that their opinion of their audience is so low that they feel they must include gratuitous sex and nudity in order to keep our attention. You have a brilliant cast, an amazing script, and a captivating plot. You are making quality television, you don't need to muddle that with an endless parade of T&A.
    Earlier sex scenes tended to be crucial, either to the plot or to character development. But at some point they picked up the idea of having characters deliver exposition to naked ladies. I understand you want to avoid talking heads, but there are ways to do that besides random nudity.


    Note: The following spoiler is only for those that read the books. Seriously, I really mean it.
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    So, early on when I heard about the show, I was worried how they were going to do a second season. I was worried that Sean Bean would become the focus of the show, and then when he gets killed, they lose the main draw.

    But they've done a great job of getting us invested in the other characters. They used Sean Bean to draw in audiences, but didn't make the show a Sean Bean vehicle. Now that you've got people invested in the show, they will keep coming back, even after the famous guy is gone.
    Wait, you saw another scene with Littlefinger?

    I'm sorry, I was too busy watching the pretty girls to even notice it.

    But yes, you're completely correct on that score. It's really a case of "look at the boobies!" thrown in to keep the attention of the folks who watch the show entirely for that reason.

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    Yes, I realized the symbolism of butchering a stag, but felt it was exceptionally blatant. More so than the original symbolism of the stag horn in the throat of a dead direwolf.

    I understand the difference between tv and books, but I just wish they'd find a better, subtler way of dealing with these things.
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  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axolotl View Post
    I live in a town with a medieval castle in it. A relatively large one as well because it's in a stratiguic postition. But it's nowhere near the size of even The Eyrie let alone the other castle the series has.
    The 'castle' mound where I come from has less surface area than most of the houses. But that's in England where the smaller castles were pretty much for keeping peasants in line and rarely got attacked.

    While the Roman fortress I'm near right now is pretty massive, but is more of a walled town and doesn't have a keep or anything. Most of the castles shown have been pretty lacking in the towns castles are supposed to have around them. For all we know Winterfel is this massive fortress with only a brothel outside the walls. I guess the only big towns in the north must be the coastal ports.

    The Seven Kingdoms are quite big, so Winterfel, the Eyrie and King's landing aren't the common kind of castle, each being the capital of a large area. They're more like comparing the Tower of London, Edinburgh Castle and Cardif Castle than comparing the three closest castles to where you live.

    Occupied and working castles are also a lot bigger than ruined ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
    I've seen castles that big, places like Dover Castle are on that scale.
    Take another look at that castle. It has two rings of fortifications and the Keep takes up a tiny percentage of the area. The Eyrie as shown on the show is one massive keep. Its a bit more realistic in the book where they talk about the larger castle at the foot of the mountain and the various gatehouses.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2011-05-31 at 12:23 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
    I've seen castles that big, places like Dover Castle are on that scale. And really only the capitols of each of the 7 kingdoms is on that scale, which makes sense seeing that at one point they were the center of independent warring states. It just so happens that we have an over representation of the capitols (Winterfell, the Eyrie, Kings Landing etc).
    Indeed. And there are implications in the text that such places are based on "lost technology" and such. Most castles and fortifications within the Seven Kingdoms are of a far more realistic scale. The only other biggun (other than Highgarden, Winterfel, the Eyrie, Red Keep, Sunspear, Old Town/High Tower, Casterly Rock, and a couple others) is Moat Cailin, which is almost entirely ruined anyway, but is said to have been very large in its time.

    Well, that and Harrenhall. But that's a different story alltogether.
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  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    The twins felt pretty big to me. More impressive than Riverrun at least.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2011-05-31 at 12:24 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    A high school teacher of mine used to say, "If you highlight everything, then you highlight nothing." I don't think the current spoiler policy, with everything relating to both books and show put under spoiler tags is sustainable. Right now, somebody looking to discuss only the show could easily open book spoilers, since he'd be used to opening spoilers just to discuss the show up to the most recently aired episode. You can either keep discussions of the show under spoiler tags (though it's a stretch to consider discussions of a currently airing show up to it's most recent episode "spoilers") and ban all discussion of the books, whether in spoiler tags or not, or just warn people in the the title that the thread contains "spoilers' regarding the TV show. Or you could try doing something cumbersome and easily forgotten, such as nesting spoiler tags or labeling every one.

  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    There's a lot of things in the books that don't make sense when you think too hard about them. For example, the size of the Wall (not that it was built, which can be attributed to magic, but that people regularly climb it and that arrows fired from the bottom can threaten people at the top), the length of seasons (there's not way a medieval society would remain intact after a two or three year winter), the sheer size of Westeros (somebody pointed out once that an army marching from Winterfell to Riverrun would cover a greater distance than the First Crusade did) or low level of urbanization ( maybe it's related to the winters?)

    Anyway, the books combine a feeling of realism combined with the feeling of the lost grandeur and myth. Just don't think too hard about it.

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhus View Post
    There's a lot of things in the books that don't make sense when you think too hard about them. For example, the size of the Wall (not that it was built, which can be attributed to magic, but that people regularly climb it and that arrows fired from the bottom can threaten people at the top), the length of seasons (there's not way a medieval society would remain intact after a two or three year winter), the sheer size of Westeros (somebody pointed out once that an army marching from Winterfell to Riverrun would cover a greater distance than the First Crusade did) or low level of urbanization ( maybe it's related to the winters?)

    Anyway, the books combine a feeling of realism combined with the feeling of the lost grandeur and myth. Just don't think too hard about it.
    As far as the winters go, GRRM has stated that there will actually be an explanation for that forthcoming.

    For what it's worth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    As far as the winters go, GRRM has stated that there will actually be an explanation for that forthcoming.

    For what it's worth.
    Well there will be an explanation for the winters being so long, but I can't imagine he meant that he'd explain how society survives the winters.
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  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    Apparently, they store grain by continually harvesting for a decade.

    But yeah, I'd call bull**** on that too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Apparently, they store grain by continually harvesting for a decade.

    But yeah, I'd call bull**** on that too.
    Yeah, that one puzzled me at first, too, but then I simply relegated it to the back of my mind with two simple things. 1) You'd be surprised what people can live through. 2) Don't think about it too hard and you'll enjoy it better.

    I actually always imagined that the winters weren't really continuous winters themselves, but more like miniature ice ages or climactic clycling. Such things are actually not entirely unknown here on Earth. The Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period for a start.

    A ten year cold period isn't really that bad of a stretch, as long as you aren't really talking about ten years of continuous snow.

    And yes, I realize GRRM kinda is. I'm just saying that it's not that greivous an offence in the grand scheme of things.
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    Default Re: When you play the Game of Thrones...

    Yeah, but given more or less late medieval technology, how long can you really store grain? Ten years sounds too long, and apparently, there were longer winters before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah, but given more or less late medieval technology, how long can you really store grain? Ten years sounds too long, and apparently, there were longer winters before.
    Storing grain is actually not that difficult. Granted, in a damp climate like northern Europe (i.e., large tracts of Westeros) you can do so for a very long time indeed. Assuming you can keep it dry and relatively free of vermin, you can store good dried grain for years.

    EDIT: Went and looked it up just to be sure. When the wheat is milled (i.e., ground into flour) it almost immediately begins to oxidise and "go bad" and must be used relatively quickly (within a year). Unmilled wheat berries (i.e., dried from the stalk) are virtually immortal as long as they are dried and kept in tightly sealed (preferably air tight) containers and away from vermin intrusion.

    Some wheat found in the Pyramids at Giza was actually still edible after 5500 years. Brave, brave man who empirically tested that out.
    Last edited by hamlet; 2011-05-31 at 01:13 PM.
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    My problem with it is no one seems to be that concerned for winter. The lords prance around the countryside burning crops and destroying store houses as sound tactics when there won't be another harvest for a decade... what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    My problem with it is no one seems to be that concerned for winter. The lords prance around the countryside burning crops and destroying store houses as sound tactics when there won't be another harvest for a decade... what?
    And it becomes a major, MAJOR plot point in the books. It's just not well covered in the show because 1) we haven't quite gotten to that point yet, and 2) it's a show with the pacing of a squirrel on crystal meth compared to the original novels.

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    In the novels (specifically in the 2nd and 3rd, actually) we see explicit preparations for the oncoming winter being made, and comments being made about idiot lords poncing about the countryside holding a war and not paying attention to the duties they should be with the oncoming winter.
    Last edited by hamlet; 2011-05-31 at 01:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
    Welcome to fiction.

    Realism in fiction in general and fantasy in particular doesn't really mean non-legendary. Books are often written about the legendary, because otherwise you wouldn't be writing the book. It just means legends that one could conceive of existing, and despite the
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    dragons, abomination-birthers, zombies, zombie-makers, ice-wall, creepy gods, etc
    by the standards of fantastic fiction, I would put forth that it is quite rigorously realistic (excepting the...well, the above, of course.) But that's just my own opinion, of course.
    Not really. Most fiction is just concerned with realistic, everyday people. Now most fantasy books don't because they seek to emulate myths generally. When people describe books as realistic it should mean that it resembles real life. ASoIaF isn't like that, it's characters and general tone are closer to a chivalric romance or epic poem than they are to real life. The big the seperates it is it's very brutal depiction of feudal society and how unpleasent it is (something that most fantasy deems to gloss over).

    Quote Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
    I've seen castles that big, places like Dover Castle are on that scale. And really only the capitols of each of the 7 kingdoms is on that scale, which makes sense seeing that at one point they were the center of independent warring states. It just so happens that we have an over representation of the capitols (Winterfell, the Eyrie, Kings Landing etc).
    That's the biggest castle in England. Compare that with Storm's End which has walls 100 feet high and over 40 feet thick. Or Harrenhal which has a 20 acre forest inside it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axolotl View Post
    That's the biggest castle in England. Compare that with Storm's End which has walls 100 feet high and over 40 feet thick. Or Harrenhal which has a 20 acre forest inside it.
    Harrenhall actually has an explanation behind it, though. It was intentionally built absurdly huge as a political and wealth statement and it's remarked multiple times just how stupid the whole place is, not to mention what happened because of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    My problem with it is no one seems to be that concerned for winter. The lords prance around the countryside burning crops and destroying store houses as sound tactics when there won't be another harvest for a decade... what?
    I get the impression that it's not entirely an uncommon phenomenon, seeing as how the Maesters have to send ravens to tell the lords that they need to be making preparations. Additionally, one thing that tells me that people don't do enough worrying about preparing for winter is the fact that the Stark words are sneered at several times in the books by other characters. They should be considered a constant reminder that there's a need to look to the future (as the Starks take them), while others simply perceive it as just a morose warning about something that's vaguely on the horizon. I know the words are metaphorical, but how they're treated seems indicative to me others' attitudes.
    Fair warning: I edit my posts fairly continuously, sometimes adding substantial amounts in the period immediately after I post originally. I blame grad school instilling a constant need to revise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Yeah, that one puzzled me at first, too, but then I simply relegated it to the back of my mind with two simple things. 1) You'd be surprised what people can live through. 2) Don't think about it too hard and you'll enjoy it better.

    I actually always imagined that the winters weren't really continuous winters themselves, but more like miniature ice ages or climactic clycling. Such things are actually not entirely unknown here on Earth. The Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period for a start.

    A ten year cold period isn't really that bad of a stretch, as long as you aren't really talking about ten years of continuous snow.

    And yes, I realize GRRM kinda is. I'm just saying that it's not that greivous an offence in the grand scheme of things.
    I assumed they'd import any additional food stuff needed. We've only heard the long winter referenced in Westeros I believe. I'd assumed that the other continents were unaffected by the long winters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauther View Post
    I assumed they'd import any additional food stuff needed. We've only heard the long winter referenced in Westeros I believe. I'd assumed that the other continents were unaffected by the long winters.
    Moreover, Dorne can still grow food during winter, as can some of the southernmost parts of some of the other 6 kingdoms. Not all of them -the North for instance can't- but enough for the situation to be a little less dire than it could be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axolotl View Post
    That's the biggest castle in England. Compare that with Storm's End which has walls 100 feet high and over 40 feet thick. Or Harrenhal which has a 20 acre forest inside it.
    The question becomes: When does it stop being a castle and start being a fortified city?
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    I thought it was fairly clear foreshadowing in the books that the petty squabbling over the throne was very likely to cause the whole kingdom to be lost to the unknown forcing coming from the north. And that in fighting their wars and using their scorched earth tactics that they were dooming the people of the land to death no matter who wins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    I thought it was fairly clear foreshadowing in the books that the petty squabbling over the throne was very likely to cause the whole kingdom to be lost to the unknown forcing coming from the north. And that in fighting their wars and using their scorched earth tactics that they were dooming the people of the land to death no matter who wins.
    I don't think it's quite that dark a series.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    I don't think it's quite that dark a series.
    I think thats what would happen w/o
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    the Prince Who Was Promised (aka Dany)
    to kick all their asses into gear against the threat of ice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
    I think thats what would happen w/o
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    the Prince Who Was Promised (aka Dany)
    to kick all their asses into gear against the threat of ice.
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    I wouldn't be so sure the prince who was promised is Dany. I actually think if R+L=J it's more likely to be Jon (given the whole title of the series is song of ice and fire, and that would make Jon the son borne of a combination of Ice and Fire), but if not him, I've still heard other plausible theories, though Dany is probably the second most likely candidate. Either way, I hold everything as questionable until it's actually in a book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
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    I wouldn't be so sure the prince who was promised is Dany. I actually think if R+L=J it's more likely to be Jon (given the whole title of the series is song of ice and fire, and that would make Jon the son borne of a combination of Ice and Fire), but if not him, I've still heard other plausible theories, though Dany is probably the second most likely candidate. Either way, I hold everything as questionable until it's actually in a book.
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    He doesn't fit the Storm's End requirement does he?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
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    I wouldn't be so sure the prince who was promised is Dany. I actually think if R+L=J it's more likely to be Jon (given the whole title of the series is song of ice and fire, and that would make Jon the son borne of a combination of Ice and Fire), but if not him, I've still heard other plausible theories, though Dany is probably the second most likely candidate. Either way, I hold everything as questionable until it's actually in a book.
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    It could simply be that Jon and Dany are going to have to work together, or most indirectly, that their actions will interact in important ways--with Jon being the Ice and Dany being the Fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
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    I wouldn't be so sure the prince who was promised is Dany. I actually think if R+L=J it's more likely to be Jon (given the whole title of the series is song of ice and fire, and that would make Jon the son borne of a combination of Ice and Fire), but if not him, I've still heard other plausible theories, though Dany is probably the second most likely candidate. Either way, I hold everything as questionable until it's actually in a book.
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    It's entirely possible that it won't turn out to be her, but Dany is the only one who I can think of that fulfills all the requirements at the moment. Of course it's possible that Jon fulfills the "born again amidst smoke and salt" criteria in a way we haven't been shown yet, but until that happens he isn't really a candidate.
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
    -Camus, An Absurd Reasoning


    Fourth Doctor avatar courtesy of Szilard

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