When you play the Game of Thrones...

[hamlet]

There's that too, but it also gets a lot less forgiveness than other shows would, by virtue of repeating what was done elsewhere, and done better elsewhere.

Granted.

But keep in mind that the title "Camelot" comes not from generic Arthurian myth, but from the original musical Camelot of which this is a reimagining.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Granted.

But keep in mind that the title "Camelot" comes not from generic Arthurian myth, but from the original musical Camelot of which this is a reimagining.

Musicals have precident for getting away with idiosyncratic names. Adapting a musical version of a famous story is silly. Every new adaptation of King Arthur should go back to the originals or at least as far as Mallory. Taking one of the largest myth cycles medieval Europe produced and making an adaptation of a recent adaptation is silly.

I agree entirely. Plus, the show is focusing on the same cast of characters yet again. Just once, I want to see something other than the whole Arthur-Lancelot-Guinevere dynamic. Balin and Balan perhaps, or Tristram, or Lamorak, or Arthur's rise to power as seen through the lense of Pellinore. I'd also love to see Palomides at some point, but that's marginally less likely than Lamorak. Gawaine and family would be another interesting point, particularly once one considers Gareth.

But no, we get yet another regurgitation of the Arthur-Lancelot-Guinevere dynamic. Urgh.

If I was doing King Arthur I'd do Mordred's rebellion from his perspective and dump Lancelot entirely so I can give Mordred his role in the love triangle back. Gawain would also get something to do with some "my brother is a traitor" angst rather than just being "Lancelot but suckier". But that was my feature film idea. For a tv series an anthology of lesser known tales would be cool. You could call it tales of the round table or something cool without falling back on character/place names like "Arthur" "Merlin" or "Camelot.

A musical needs to be over in three hours and have some emotions for the characters to sing about. There's a reason for it to focus on that love triangle. But a tv series has no reason to copy a musical. Did they have to pay for the rights to adapt the musical? Paying for the rights to king arthur is silly.

Any adaptation of King Arthur is inherently an adaptation of an adaptation of an adaptation of an adaptation. Merely adapting back one level to a popular musical and then calling your story "a reimagining" is just lazy. Where's the imagination in this reimagining?

[hamlet]

Musicals have precident for getting away with idiosyncratic names. Adapting a musical version of a famous story is silly. Every new adaptation of King Arthur should go back to the originals or at least as far as Mallory. Taking one of the largest myth cycles medieval Europe produced and making an adaptation of a recent adaptation is silly.

I agree, it's stupid. I'm just explaining where the name comes from, not excusing it.

In my opinion, the creators of the show should be tried for crimes against humanity. Or at least entertainment.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I agree, it's stupid. I'm just explaining where the name comes from, not excusing it.

While I am just ranting, not trying to argue with you for posting something.

[valadil]

In my opinion it was supposed to be low fantasy, but any world that has or has had fire breathing lizards kind of loses the right to be low fantasy.

I always saw it as a high fantasy world with a low fantasy plot and that's what I like about it. I can't relate to a wizard riding a dragon. I can relate to a dude getting outmaneuvered by a silvertongued jackass. That said, when the epic plot emerges I'm expecting the later books to go into higher fantasy.

the sheer size of Westeros (somebody pointed out once that an army marching from Winterfell to Riverrun would cover a greater distance than the First Crusade did).

GRRM has specifically said that distances are determined by speed of plot, not by geography. This made the d20 campaign book kinda frustrating.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Finally starting to catch up on the series (I've promised my GF not to skip ahead, which leads to me accumulating small heaps of episodes while waiting for her to be free and interested).

I'm only up to episode five and it interests me just how much 'extra' content they've included. The conversation between Robert and Cersei stands out as a highlight, in particular. He's such a delightfully terrible king in episode five in general

Of course, then **** goes down. Why oh why oh why is all I can really say about the direction things are going to be heading in from this point out.

And to make it all worse ...

(Future book spoilers! Read at own peril!)

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Jaime ****ing survives. More than just that, he survives where better people drop like flies for doing nothing wrong. Then he gets a sympathetic POV and suddenly he grows a massive fanbase?

Bah. If I could intervene and kill off one house entirely, it'd be the Lannisters. Those arrogant bastards who cruise through nearly everything and win a war they didn't deserve to. I hope that House Tyrell cuts Tommen into tiny strips while Jaime hangs.

[The Glyphstone]

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Jaime ****ing survives. More than just that, he survives where better people drop like flies for doing nothing wrong. Then he gets a sympathetic POV and suddenly he grows a massive fanbase?

Bah. If I could intervene and kill off one house entirely, it'd be the Lannisters. Those arrogant bastards who cruise through nearly everything and win a war they didn't deserve to. I hope that House Tyrell cuts Tommen into tiny strips while Jaime hangs.

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Spare Tyrion at least, he almost makes up for his siblings.

[valadil]

(Future book spoilers! Read at own peril!)

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Jaime ****ing survives. More than just that, he survives where better people drop like flies for doing nothing wrong. Then he gets a sympathetic POV and suddenly he grows a massive fanbase?

(More book spoilers)

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I think fanbase comes from how amazing it is that he became sympathetic. In book one I wouldn't have believed he could. But Martin amazed me by making Jaime likeable (although I still wouldn't call him forgivable). That he pulled this off is impressive, and people are in awe of the sympathetic turn, so they end up liking Jaime.

[DomaDoma]

(More book spoilers)

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I think fanbase comes from how amazing it is that he became sympathetic. In book one I wouldn't have believed he could. But Martin amazed me by making Jaime likeable (although I still wouldn't call him forgivable). That he pulled this off is impressive, and people are in awe of the sympathetic turn, so they end up liking Jaime.

Still about the book. (And fix your quote markup, Valadil. The spoiler is showing.)

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And then there's the fact that he has the best of the very few CMoAs in book four when he burns that letter.

We also get Cersei's point of view and come to understand where she's coming from, after all, and it still doesn't make her likable.

Spoiler-within-a-spoiler for comments on book five hints:

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Speaking of unlikable viewpoint characters, I'm really going to hope that Ramsay Bolton's tender mercies have somehow smacked some redeeming qualities into Theon. I can't think who else the character returning from book two rather the worse for wear could be.

[hamlet]

Still about the book. (And fix your quote markup, Valadil. The spoiler is showing.)

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And then there's the fact that he has the best of the very few CMoAs in book four when he burns that letter.

We also get Cersei's point of view and come to understand where she's coming from, after all, and it still doesn't make her likable.

Spoiler-within-a-spoiler for comments on book five hints:

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Speaking of unlikable viewpoint characters, I'm really going to hope that Ramsay Bolton's tender mercies have somehow smacked some redeeming qualities into Theon. I can't think who else the character returning from book two rather the worse for wear could be.

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Theon is absolutely confirmed as returning to the narrative, though I believe he's named "Reek" now and has gone more than a little nutters.

As for knocking redeeming qualities into him? Pft, unlikely. He's like Viserys light and I'll dance on his grave when they skin him alive and boil him in his own pudding.

[Zocelot]

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A Bolton POV could be very interesting. I think we'll get one in book 6.

[Seerow]

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A Bolton POV could be very interesting. I think we'll get one in book 6.

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Only if the books get expanded yet again. If GRRM seriously intends to finish in 7 books as he says, then adding more POVs is not something that I want to see happen. Things need to start getting resolved over the next two books, or we'll end up in a situation like wheel of time, where the story spiraled out of control, and then have the last book setting up to be finishing at a blistering pace, and still likely leaving a lot of things unresolved

[valadil]

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Only if the books get expanded yet again. If GRRM seriously intends to finish in 7 books as he says, then adding more POVs is not something that I want to see happen. Things need to start getting resolved over the next two books, or we'll end up in a situation like wheel of time, where the story spiraled out of control, and then have the last book setting up to be finishing at a blistering pace, and still likely leaving a lot of things unresolved

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Adding new POV characters is no good, but he'll probably have to add POVs to existing characters or there will be nobody left to tell the story. I don't think there's anything wrong with using an established character this way as long as it's not creating more content. ie, he could tell what's going on in the vale with alternating Littlefinger/Sansa chapters instead of using twice as many Sansa chapters.

[VanBuren]

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Adding new POV characters is no good, but he'll probably have to add POVs to existing characters or there will be nobody left to tell the story. I don't think there's anything wrong with using an established character this way as long as it's not creating more content. ie, he could tell what's going on in the vale with alternating Littlefinger/Sansa chapters instead of using twice as many Sansa chapters.

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I don't know if I'd actually like a Littlefinger chapter, or a Varys one for that matter. Chessmasters are so much more enigmatic when you can't see their thoughts.

[Knaight]

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Bah. If I could intervene and kill off one house entirely, it'd be the Lannisters. Those arrogant bastards who cruise through nearly everything and win a war they didn't deserve to. I hope that House Tyrell cuts Tommen into tiny strips while Jaime hangs.

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Tyrion, Myrcella, and Tommen are all decent people. Incidentally they also all avoided Cersei's influence more than Jaime and Joffrey, who Cersei corrupted heavily.

[Sinfonian]

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Tyrion, Myrcella, and Tommen are all decent people. Incidentally they also all avoided Cersei's influence more than Jaime and Joffrey, who Cersei corrupted heavily.

I agree that this is an important point. That one person is poison to everyone. There are some people in there that remain decent, if still slightly to the pragmatic side.

[Flame of Anor]

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Bah. If I could intervene and kill off one house entirely, it'd be the Lannisters. Those arrogant bastards who cruise through nearly everything and win a war they didn't deserve to. I hope that House Tyrell cuts Tommen into tiny strips while Jaime hangs.

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Surely the Boltons or the Freys are much worse. (The Greyjoys are pretty bad, but they're too darn cool to kill off.) I mean, in the house of Lannister, we have: Cersei (bad), Joffrey (bad), Tyrion (good), Myrcella (good), Tommen (good), Jaime (in between), Tywin (in between)

[Dienekes]

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Surely the Boltons or the Freys are much worse. (The Greyjoys are pretty bad, but they're too darn cool to kill off.) I mean, in the house of Lannister, we have: Cersei (bad), Joffrey (bad), Tyrion (good), Myrcella (good), Tommen (good), Jaime (in between), Tywin (in between)

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Jaime: Tossed an innocent child to its death and has repeatedly shown no compulsion about murdering just about anyone (bad), Tywin: ordered the murder of innocents as well as forced the repeated rape of his sons wife (bad)
Sorry I never can see how anyone can place those two as anything other than evil.

As to the Freys, they're evil mind you, but Walder Frey did have a reason to switch sides, Robb acted stupidly and it was looking more and more like Robb would lose the war. And everyone knows what Tywin does to those who cross him and fail.
The Boltons are repulsive through and through.

[Klose_the_Sith]

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Surely the Boltons or the Freys are much worse. (The Greyjoys are pretty bad, but they're too darn cool to kill off.) I mean, in the house of Lannister, we have: Cersei (bad), Joffrey (bad), Tyrion (good), Myrcella (good), Tommen (good), Jaime (in between), Tywin (in between)

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You remind me of my girlfriend telling me to break down every house into the good guys and bad guys. It just doesn't work that way

Tyrion is a spiteful little imp who thinks himself so clever despite being incredibly stupid half the time. He's an amusing little blighter, but the taint of Lannister is clear within him in Storm of Swords (part 2 if you're saddled with the Australian weirdness ...)

Jaime is a sympathetic character who manages to supposedly have a pragmatic streak (way to kingslay) yet be bound by honour due to his 'redemption' and yet still be incompetent at the same time. Killing him would at this stage be merciful, compared to the life he seems destined to face otherwise. That's why I offered him the swift mercy of the gallows

Tywin is not in between. He is legitimately psychotic and rules the kingdom well only because that means he's "winning". He's ruthless because there's no measure too horrible for him to consider, it's all fair game if it advances his cause. The smallfolk only live well under him because they're ultimately irrelevant in the face of his schemes.

Myrcella and Tommen don't really have personalities, but considering the way the rest of their house turned out, they're better off dead. Robert was right to want all the Targaryens gone (in terms of them being a threat while any live), but he should've applied that mantra to the Lannisters as well.

The reason why I wouldn't hunt down the Boltons or the Freys is simply because Lady Stoneheart is already on that

[BRC]

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Jaime: Tossed an innocent child to its death and has repeatedly shown no compulsion about murdering just about anyone (bad), Tywin: ordered the murder of innocents as well as forced the repeated rape of his sons wife (bad)
Sorry I never can see how anyone can place those two as anything other than evil.

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As I see it, the Lannisters are not the most evil family in the story. However, they are the most powerful of the evil families.
If the equation for Evil done is Evil Intent x Power, then the Lannisters come out on top.
However, I don't really rate them as super-evil (Though this might just be a result of them getting viewpoint characters), because they lack that malicious vibe I get from the Boltons or the Frays. The Lannisters are mainly just ambitious (and who isn't in this series) and Ruthless. But they generally play by the rules (well, what rules there are).
Of course, this could just be because we get chapters from the viewpoint of the Lannisters/I consider the Red Wedding more a Frey plot than a Lannister one, even though we know Tywin was behind it.

And I take Joffery as an individual, not a representative of the Lannisters as a whole.

[Dienekes]

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However, I don't really rate them as super-evil (Though this might just be a result of them getting viewpoint characters), because they lack that malicious vibe I get from the Boltons or the Frays. The Lannisters are mainly just ambitious (and who isn't in this series) and Ruthless. But they generally play by the rules (well, what rules there are).
Of course, this could just be because we get chapters from the viewpoint of the Lannisters/I consider the Red Wedding more a Frey plot than a Lannister one, even though we know Tywin was behind it.

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You see personally I see the Red Wedding as a Bolton/Lannister scheme more than the Frey's.
My reasoning: It was initiated by Roose Bolton with his contact and dealings with Jaime. We already know that his family has been trying to play the war to their advantage as shown by Ramsay doing just about anything (he's a sociopath admittedly, but he's a sociopath who seems to be rising through the ranks incredibly fast). Roose also seems to have been essential to bringing the Frey's into the alliance since he married Fat Walda probably to seal the agreement.
Now look at the outcome of the Red Wedding.
The Boltons became the new Wardens of the North and Roose got to kill his families ancestral enemy personally.
The Lannisters ended a significant threat to their power.
The Freys got all the blame and took all the risk. To me that makes it seem that it wasn't really completely their plan as they're disrespected by just about everyone. Sure it benefited them, they gained Riverrun, but Roose definitely got a better deal.

[Klose_the_Sith]

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The Freys got all the blame and took all the risk. To me that makes it seem that it wasn't really completely their plan as they're disrespected by just about everyone. Sure it benefited them, they gained Riverrun, but Roose definitely got a better deal.

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Lands that they'll never hold, the ire of nearly every family in Westeros and a crazed she devil murdering their sons with aplomb. Eat your heart out, Walder Frey.

[Flame of Anor]

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I'm not saying Tywin and Jaime are paragons of virtue, or even any sort of role models. But at least Tywin has had strong stabilizing influence on the kingdom, and Jaime seems to be learning to be a nice guy.

[BRC]

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I'm not saying Tywin and Jaime are paragons of virtue, or even any sort of role models. But at least Tywin has had strong stabilizing influence on the kingdom, and Jaime seems to be learning to be a nice guy.

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Jamie is little more than a well-mannered thug. He knows how to solve his problems with violence, and so never really bothers to look for solutions beyond that. He has no real aspirations between being a good swordsman and demonstrating his *ahem* "Swordsmanship" to Ceresi.
This is the reason for the conflict between Jamie and Tywin. Tywin hates Tyrion, and wants Jamie to be his heir. However, Jamie has no real interest in politics, he's just a soldier, and is perfectly happy that way.

Losing his hand is crucial for Jamie's character development, because it forces him to actually become somebody. Before he was a thug, now he's forced to figure out who he is when he can't solve his problems with violence.

[DomaDoma]

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Jaime: Tossed an innocent child to its death and has repeatedly shown no compulsion about murdering just about anyone (bad), Tywin: ordered the murder of innocents as well as forced the repeated rape of his sons wife (bad)
Sorry I never can see how anyone can place those two as anything other than evil.

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I think people are ambivalent about Tywin because if you could trust any of the major players to effect a lasting Pax Factionana if they won, it'd be him. A peace with Gregor Clegane as an enforcer blows chunks, natch, but everything blows chunks in this universe. And if you read webcomics, consider that Gregor Clegane is essentially a grittier take on Bangladesh DuPree...

[BRC]

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I think people are ambivalent about Tywin because if you could trust any of the major players to effect a lasting Pax Factionana if they won, it'd be him. A peace with Gregor Clegane as an enforcer blows chunks, natch, but everything blows chunks in this universe. And if you read webcomics, consider that Gregor Clegane is essentially a grittier take on Bangladesh DuPree...

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Here's the thing about Tywin. He's ruthless and ambitious, but he's not malicious. He would gladly ride a wave of mutilation to the Iron Throne, but once he did so, he would actually try his best to make the kingdom stable and prosperous. What's more, with his intelligence and wealth, he's the most likely to do it.

Tywin is willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve his goals. However, this does not always mean killing babies.

[Dienekes]

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I think people are ambivalent about Tywin because if you could trust any of the major players to effect a lasting Pax Factionana if they won, it'd be him. A peace with Gregor Clegane as an enforcer blows chunks, natch, but everything blows chunks in this universe. And if you read webcomics, consider that Gregor Clegane is essentially a grittier take on Bangladesh DuPree...

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Oh I agree, Tywin is probably the single most gifted intelligent ruler the series has shown. If there is anyone who could drag the kingdoms from poverty to prosperity it would be him. He has my respect for his limitless capabilities and political cunning.

But don't mistake what he is. He is evil, and if he felt it would somehow benefit his status or that of his house/kingdom/whatever that a few children need to be bashed against a wall, he'd do it without hesitation and without pitty.

Also I don't know who Bangladesh DuPree is, but with a name that ridiculous sounding I'll have to go find out.

[Flame of Anor]

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Oh I agree, Tywin is probably the single most gifted intelligent ruler the series has shown. If there is anyone who could drag the kingdoms from poverty to prosperity it would be him. He has my respect for his limitless capabilities and political cunning.

But don't mistake what he is. He is evil, and if he felt it would somehow benefit his status or that of his house/kingdom/whatever that a few children need to be bashed against a wall, he'd do it without hesitation and without pitty.

Also I don't know who Bangladesh DuPree is, but with a name that ridiculous sounding I'll have to go find out.

www.girlgeniusonline.com

[Mauther]

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A Bolton POV could be very interesting. I think we'll get one in book 6.

For those hoping for a Bolton POV chapter in Book 6 I've posted the teaser Bolton POV that was released a while ago. Like all of the POVs so far it doesn't give away much detail about the plot, but does subtly emphasize the most dominate traits of the POV source:

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kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat.

We broke for dinner. First up was a fresh pair of oysters adorned with a Asshai ginger relish, followed by the entrée (a tomato-sardine tartelette for me and a pork carpaccio with a creamy anchovy-lemon sauce for Ramsay). For our main courses, we tried the lamb with a delicate mint and coconut sauce, and a joue de boeuf in broth with winter vegetables. Both were well cooked, unpretentiously presented, and quickly devoured.

kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat kill rape burn maime flay torture eat.

One bit that I am unclear on involving Tywin:

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Does he support Jaime and Cersei's relationship. In the books I don't believe it speaks to it, but it seemed like the show was saying it was part of his plan. That seems very short sighted and awful risky for Tywin's style.

[Tiki Snakes]

Not having watched the show, and only remembering the books faintly;
Re: your query, Mauther.

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I always thought that was basically why Tywin was so frustrated with Tyrion, to some degree. Because if he could just switch Tyrion's mind with that of his other son, the thug who is far too close to his sister, then he'd probably have the son he wants. Been a long time though, so pinch of salt.