When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Alcopop]

warning: venting ahead

Have almost finished the first book. three chapters to go and...

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Damn this is just getting too dark. Every other chapter someone is getting raped or killed or beaten, or raped and beaten and killed. And that's just the side characters, adding atmosphere with their suffering or something. The main characters are simply endlessly humiliated, shamed, beaten and occasionally beheaded after being humiliated shamed and beaten. Did I mention the rape? there is a lot of rape. Like that slave girl getting raped on that pile of corpses. oh and later murdered while being raped! seriously Martin. what?

As much as I love the way Martin writes I'm not sure if I can get through 5 tomes of this. It sucks, because he is obviously a good enough writer to get me attached to all the characters. But it's like making friends and then watching them all get tortured for an hour. Don't get me wrong I don't want these characters to be Mary Sues covered in plot armor but would it be so hard to give them a little quarter now and then? Maybe I'd be able to deal with it if the setting wasn't so relentlessly grim, with every side character and there mother suffering horrible fates.

I probably shouldn't be raging about the book in a thread dedicated to it, I do like the book in a lot of ways, especially the first half. But I guess the second half has put me in a bit of a black mood.

[VanBuren]

I kind of disagree. I'm with you in that I'm about four or five chapters from the finish of book one, but in the midst of all the sadism going on, I'm really starting to see one character in particular come into his/her own.

[Alcopop]

Well the chapters after were actually kind of uplifting. (I have only yet to read the last) So I am content with the balance for now. Though still I have an uneasy dread in my gut.

Still, even when I was angry I could only put the book down to write that post, and then I was right back to reading. That's a credit to the writing at least. even if the author does favor a style a shade too dark for my liking.

[Bosh]

Read the last chapter, it is most good and very cool. It would be very much Not a Good Thing to read the whole book and stop there. But yeah, the series is dark, so it makes the points of lights all the brighter and damn some of those points of light are bright.

[Alcopop]

Read the last chapter, it is most good and very cool. It would be very much Not a Good Thing to read the whole book and stop there. But yeah, the series is dark, so it makes the points of lights all the brighter and damn some of those points of light are bright.

I wasn't about to stop reading or anything. And I agree, having a dark story gives contrast to it's lighter moments and can makes them seem all the more brilliant. But I guess the nasty stuff happening to the characters + the relentlessly awful things that kept happening to woman (which is an issue that gets to me personally) got under my skin.

[Knaight]

But I guess the nasty stuff happening to the characters + the relentlessly awful things that kept happening to woman (which is an issue that gets to me personally) got under my skin.

I think this is supposed to get to you. The series is largely about the horrors of war, and how that affects everyone caught up in it, but there is much more to it than that. One of the other main themes is about how the extreme privilege in society hurts everyone. The status of privilege in the nobility harms the peasants, the status of privilege for males harms women, the status of privilege to the physically fit harms those who aren't. Then the horrible situation caused by this simmers for a while, periodically coming to a fever pitch in a fury of blood and fire, where Westeros is bled from top to bottom.

[Dienekes]

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@ Klose: There is symbolism in ASoIaF? I just read a good story man....

The lemon cakes represent power.

[hamlet]

The lemon cakes represent power.

No no. It's innocence, and it's absence in later books represents . . . something. I guess.

[DomaDoma]

I think this is supposed to get to you. The series is largely about the horrors of war, and how that affects everyone caught up in it, but there is much more to it than that. One of the other main themes is about how the extreme privilege in society hurts everyone. The status of privilege in the nobility harms the peasants, the status of privilege for males harms women, the status of privilege to the physically fit harms those who aren't. Then the horrible situation caused by this simmers for a while, periodically coming to a fever pitch in a fury of blood and fire, where Westeros is bled from top to bottom.

Well, as far as gender inequality goes, you may have a point, but

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I don't remember the smallfolk ever seriously biting a major faction in the butt. As for Tyrion, well, the fact that the Lannisters were essentially finished as a power at roughly the same time the Starks were actually seems to have given the world some breathing room.

Anyway, the raving classism, sexism &c. of Westeros is not remotely comparable to the kind of trifling situations that people tell me to "check my privilege" over, and I sincerely hope that George R.R. Martin did not intend to compare them.

[Knaight]

Well, as far as gender inequality goes, you may have a point, but

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I don't remember the smallfolk ever seriously biting a major faction in the butt. As for Tyrion, well, the fact that the Lannisters were essentially finished as a power at roughly the same time the Starks were actually seems to have given the world some breathing room.

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They haven't managed this yet, but there are factions on the rise which aren't connected to the nobility. Sadly, I haven't read the books recently enough to give good specifics, suffice to say that there were a bunch of religious small folk taking up arms in kings landing under Cersei's reign in Feast for Crows, and they are about set up to do some major damage.

[Closet_Skeleton]

But I guess the nasty stuff happening to the characters + the relentlessly awful things that kept happening to woman (which is an issue that gets to me personally) got under my skin.

I didn't see any especially nasty stuff directed towards women. It was just that there were quite a few female characters and bad stuff happened to everyone. There's a standard stuffed in the fridge moment in a later book but plenty of women lose their husbands before that comes up.

[Knaight]

I didn't see any especially nasty stuff directed towards women. It was just that there were quite a few female characters and bad stuff happened to everyone. There's a standard stuffed in the fridge moment in a later book but plenty of women lose their husbands before that comes up.

There are several explicit rape scenes, and several more scenes where that threat is very present.

[DomaDoma]

There are several explicit rape scenes, and several more scenes where that threat is very present.

And there's a whole perversely motivational speech later on about how women can't get their way except by being emotional and by judicious use of sex. I don't think the way I put that needs to be under a spoiler tag, right?

[Knaight]

And there's a whole perversely motivational speech later on about how women can't get their way except by being emotional and by judicious use of sex. I don't think the way I put that needs to be under a spoiler tag, right?

Yes, there is this as well, which also blatantly highlights a lot of what is screwed in the society. Of course, when one considers who made that speech...

[Dienekes]

No no. It's innocence, and it's absence in later books represents . . . something. I guess.

I'm sorry I think you have it wrong.
Innocence is represented by a Bear, a Bear! All black and brown, and covered with hair.

And good will and fellowship amongst men is best portrayed through the comet, obviously. Though it later appears again as a fat pink mast.

[hamlet]

I'm sorry I think you have it wrong.
Innocence is represented by a Bear, a Bear! All black and brown, and covered with hair.

And good will and fellowship amongst men is best portrayed through the comet, obviously. Though it later appears again as a fat pink mast.

No no no. The comet is obviously a symbol of the microcosm of Westeros juxtaposed against the macrocosm of Jungian Shadow Archetypes represented by each of the characters crossed with fertility and sexual imagery because Martin is, in fact, unbeknownst to the lay people, a neo-Freudian.

[carabaldo]

question... is it just me,or other people find very few positive female characters in asoiaf?
I can say Arya... and... arya? Brienne? (both not so feminine)

Sansa? the village fool of winterfell
Catelyn? Her jumping to wrong conclusions and her kidnapping of tyrion are one of the causes of Ed demise
Cersei? that's shooting on the red cross
Melisandre? burn her

suggestions?

[Derthric]

question... is it just me,or other people find very few positive female characters in asoiaf?
I can say Arya... and... arya? Brienne? (both not so feminine)

Sansa? the village fool of winterfell
Catelyn? Her jumping to wrong conclusions and her kidnapping of tyrion are one of the causes of Ed demise
Cersei? that's shooting on the red cross
Melisandre? burn her

suggestions?

I cannot say that the women of Westeros are no more or less Flawed than the Men of Westeros. Also spoil some of that BTW its not been shown yet.

Other women to consider.

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Lots o' book spoilers

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The Queen of Thornes, seems to understand the game better than most of the men. Margarie Tyrell has a pretty Sansa-esque attitude but we don't know if she is as misguided but she definitely has been through enough with the double widowing. The Reed girl and Osha come across as average people with points of excellence, Osha with saving Rickon and Brann and Reed in helping to guide and defend Brann to the North.

Plus you skipped Dany!

So not all bad

[Seerow]

question... is it just me,or other people find very few positive female characters in asoiaf?
I can say Arya... and... arya? Brienne? (both not so feminine)

Sansa? the village fool of winterfell
Catelyn? Her jumping to wrong conclusions and her kidnapping of tyrion are one of the causes of Ed demise
Cersei? that's shooting on the red cross
Melisandre? burn her

suggestions?

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Dany? Also I like Mel, and think we're going to enjoy her more once we get into her head. I also think Sansa has potential going forward, but her chapters especially in the first book are a chore. Cat didn't bug me while reading her, and I think her faults are greatly exaggerated, and un-cat is another storyline with great potential.

edit: Forgot the tyrell girls the above poster mentioned. Those are both good.

[Axolotl]

Book 4 discussion below. May spoil.

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Take a break. Seriously. Books 1-3 can be read consecutively but you should hold off before 4. When GRRM meant for the series to be 6 books long he was treating it as two trilogies. You're at the beginning of the second trilogy and expecting a continuation of the first.

Book 4 is also supposedly the low point in the series. While 3 had some high notes/partial victories, most of the characters you followed are dead. GRRM has to start up new characters and plots. It's really hard to care about those darned Greyjoys when you want to know what Tyrion is up to. Take a break and when you pick it up again, treat Feast like a whole new series.

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Too late, I've already finished it.

I understand what your saying and it is nice to get some space to breathe and explore the setting more while the final act gets set up. However I still wish things happened, in Book 1 while the characters and setting were being set up we had the Eddard chapters to drive the plot. Nothig does that in book 4, the closest we get are Brienne's chapterswhere she's on a quest we know she won't succeed at.

Cersei takes up most of the book and all she does is be stupid and evil, it was good to see froom her viewpoint and it did set up something that I'm sure will be very important and the ending was brilliant. On the other hand very little happened in those chapters and they got repetitive very quickly.

And then there's the Arya chapter's, where nothing happens it gets three chapters and it ends with a bizarre cliffhanger. When I finished I actually went back over the book because I was sure I must have missed another chapter with her in it.

Now I don't hate it. And if the things in it become important later on I'll appreciate all the setting description we get. But things only start to happen at the end. I hope A Dance with Dragons isn't as slow as this. What makes it even more annoying is that all the cliffhangers will only be resolved in Book 6, which at the current rate we won't see until 2016.

question... is it just me,or other people find very few positive female characters in asoiaf?

Well I'll list the femal characters I see as positive:
Arya
Brienne
Catelyn
Daenerys

Now that may not seem a lot, But I'll list the male characters:
Eddard
Jon

It's not really very unbalanced.

[0Megabyte]

Well, as far as gender inequality goes, you may have a point, but

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I don't remember the smallfolk ever seriously biting a major faction in the butt. As for Tyrion, well, the fact that the Lannisters were essentially finished as a power at roughly the same time the Starks were actually seems to have given the world some breathing room.

Anyway, the raving classism, sexism &c. of Westeros is not remotely comparable to the kind of trifling situations that people tell me to "check my privilege" over, and I sincerely hope that George R.R. Martin did not intend to compare them.

In regards to your spoilers:

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Think the Sparrows. Yeah.

[Klose_the_Sith]

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Too late, I've already finished it.

A man after my own heart

Now that may not seem a lot, But I'll list the male characters:
Eddard
Jon

I can think of a few more, but they tend to be minor characters (Greatjon, Blackfish, etc.)

[Lord Raziere]

A man after my own heart



I can think of a few more, but they tend to be minor characters (Greatjon, Blackfish, etc.)

you are both forgetting Sam. such a travesty.

[Seerow]

you are both forgetting Sam. such a travesty.

Sorry what was that? I couldn't hear you over me laughing at the pink mast.

[Lord Raziere]

Sorry what was that? I couldn't hear you over me laughing at the pink mast.

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I'm sorry I can't hear you over the awesomeness of single-handedly taking down an Other

[Elhann]

you are both forgetting Sam. such a travesty.

All of you are being height-ist and forgetting Tyrion, who is not a bad person (he's got his issues, though) AND is awesome beyond words.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Samwell is no hero - unlike Dolorous Edd. Now there's a man you can build a revolution behind

All of you are being height-ist and forgetting Tyrion, who is not a bad person (he's got his issues, though) AND is awesome beyond words.

Book spoiler-ish

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He definitely starts out like that, but at the moment he seems to have been driven away from his good intentions by his family's stupid inclinations.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Samwell is no hero - unlike Dolorous Edd. Now there's a man you can build a revolution behind

There's more to life than being a hero.

[DomaDoma]

There's more to life than being a hero.

If everybody in Westeros just learned to freaking cope, that would be preferable. But if only a few characters did, it might be even worse.

[Axolotl]

you are both forgetting Sam. such a travesty.

Sam's an incompotent, self-confessed coward. He's a nice guy and all but in the end I'd probably rate Sansa over him.

All of you are being height-ist and forgetting Tyrion, who is not a bad person (he's got his issues, though) AND is awesome beyond words.

I considered Tyrion but

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he essentially put Cersei in direct control of Westeros. He probably didn't mean too but I still have to mark that against him.

By the way, how big is Westeros? I mean given the population figures that get thrown around I assume it's fairly small. But someone on TVTropes said it was the size of South America, which would mean a ludicrously small population density. (Although admittedly the TVTropes pages on ASoIaF are ludicrous in general).